RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 30 November 2011

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Jeremy Carroll, Nicholas Humfrey, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Ted Thibodeau
Scribe
Gavin Carothers
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment). link
Topics
16:01:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-irc

16:01:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

16:01:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

16:01:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

16:01:53 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:01:53 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
16:01:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

16:01:57 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes

Ted Thibodeau: RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html MacTed

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html MacTed

16:02:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

16:02:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago

16:02:03 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:02:05 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
16:02:23 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs world

Ted Thibodeau: RRSAgent, make logs world

16:02:34 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:02:34 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted

Zakim IRC Bot: I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted

16:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, OpenLink_Software, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, OpenLink_Software, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc

16:02:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP

16:02:47 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:02:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:02:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:02:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:02:51 <gavinc> scribenick: gavinc

(Scribe set to Gavin Carothers)

16:03:04 <Guus> zakim, +31 is me

Guus Schreiber: zakim, +31 is me

16:03:04 <Zakim> +Guus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it

16:03:07 <gavinc> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

16:03:25 <Zakim> +AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall

16:04:02 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, MacTed (muted), Scott_Bauer, AndyS, Guus, gavinc, AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, MacTed (muted), Scott_Bauer, AndyS, Guus, gavinc, AlexHall

16:04:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see charlesgreer, AlexHall, Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see charlesgreer, AlexHall, Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1,

16:04:06 <Zakim> ... trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, sandro, ericP

16:04:52 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

16:04:55 <charlesgreer> zakim, list attendees

Charles Greer: zakim, list attendees

16:04:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP

16:05:07 <Zakim> + +1.850.377.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.850.377.aabb

16:05:10 <Zakim> +Arnaud_LeHors

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud_LeHors

16:05:10 <charlesgreer> zakim, cgreer is me

Charles Greer: zakim, cgreer is me

16:05:10 <Zakim> +charlesgreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +charlesgreer; got it

16:05:52 <PatH> zakim, 1.850377.aabb is me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, 1.850377.aabb is me

16:05:54 <Zakim> sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850377.aabb'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850377.aabb'

16:06:24 <PatH> zakim, 1.850.377.aabb is me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, 1.850.377.aabb is me

16:06:27 <Zakim> sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850.377.aabb'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850.377.aabb'

16:06:34 <gavinc> Guus: Didn't have a meeting last week for Thanksgiving. Small meeting this week with so many at SemTech

Guus Schreiber: Didn't have a meeting last week for Thanksgiving. Small meeting this week with so many at SemTech

16:08:32 <gavinc> gavinc: Updated Graph-TF wiki page, tried to find more info from mailing lists. Added link to RDF Concepts datatypes to Turtle

Gavin Carothers: Updated Graph-TF wiki page, tried to find more info from mailing lists. Added link to RDF Concepts datatypes to Turtle

16:09:08 <AndyS> AndyS has no progress to report on action #119 "Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it" - sorry

Andy Seaborne: AndyS has no progress to report on action #119 "Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it" - sorry

16:09:08 <gavinc> AndyS: No progress on ISSUE-119

Andy Seaborne: No progress on ACTION-119

16:09:21 <AndyS> s/ISSUE/ACTION/ !!!!!!!!
16:10:10 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs

Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs

16:10:22 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.415.586.aacc

16:11:17 <gavinc> Guus: PatH completed ACTION-116

Guus Schreiber: PatH completed ACTION-116

16:11:40 <gavinc> Guus: Sandro and David Wood can't make it next week. May need to cancel

Guus Schreiber: Sandro and David Wood can't make it next week. May need to cancel

16:12:14 <gavinc> Topic: RDF XMLLiterals

2. RDF XMLLiterals

16:12:36 <gavinc> Guus: Richard is not here. Who wants to give the current status of this debate?

Guus Schreiber: Richard is not here. Who wants to give the current status of this debate?

16:12:42 <PatH> zakim, aabb is me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, aabb is me

16:12:42 <Zakim> +PatH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH; got it

16:13:08 <gavinc> AndyS: I don't see any reason to keep XMLLiterals hard coded into the specs.

Andy Seaborne: I don't see any reason to keep XMLLiterals hard coded into the specs.

16:13:17 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:13:26 <gavinc> AndyS: As long as their optional, not that concerned about them

Andy Seaborne: As long as their optional, not that concerned about them

16:13:44 <gavinc> +q

+q

16:13:55 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Jeremy Carroll: q+

16:14:13 <gavinc> PatH: Was there any consensus in emails?

Patrick Hayes: Was there any consensus in emails?

16:14:40 <gavinc> Guus: Needed for RDF/XML, but not much else.

Guus Schreiber: Needed for RDF/XML, but not much else.

16:14:44 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28

16:14:56 <NickH> Zakim, ??P28 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P28 is me

16:14:56 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

16:15:02 <NickH> Zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me

16:15:03 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

16:15:11 <gavinc> Guus: No significant disagreement

Guus Schreiber: No significant disagreement

16:15:20 <gavinc> avk me

avk me

16:15:23 <gavinc> ack me

ack me

16:16:30 <gavinc> gavinc: No strong opinions if it's optional, but the value space is a bit complicated

Gavin Carothers: No strong opinions if it's optional, but the value space is a bit complicated

16:16:31 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll

Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll

16:16:45 <Zakim> +??P29

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P29

16:17:37 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: People seem not to want to mention XML C14N. I think I should provide a rationale

Jeremy Carroll: People seem not to want to mention XML C14N. I think I should provide a rationale

16:19:00 <PatH> +1 to Jeremy. I suggest masking it optional taks away most of the pain.

Patrick Hayes: +1 to Jeremy. I suggest masking it optional taks away most of the pain.

16:19:29 <PatH> masking/making

Patrick Hayes: masking/making

16:19:38 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: If you need to compare things, C14N is a requirement. If you want to do logical operations over it then you need to do the C14N. We need to specify how to do compare, but not every application needs to do compare

Jeremy Carroll: If you need to compare things, C14N is a requirement. If you want to do logical operations over it then you need to do the C14N. We need to specify how to do compare, but not every application needs to do compare

16:20:16 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Making it optional seems like the key change.

Jeremy Carroll: Making it optional seems like the key change.

16:20:38 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I prefer doing in L2V mapping, but was easier as an implementor do it in the XML parser

Jeremy Carroll: I prefer doing in L2V mapping, but was easier as an implementor do it in the XML parser

16:20:57 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:21:13 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: At some point will need to compare an XMLLiteral from RDF/XML and Turtle, wherew will we do the work? I think right now we're saying to do it durring the compare

Jeremy Carroll: At some point will need to compare an XMLLiteral from RDF/XML and Turtle, wherew will we do the work? I think right now we're saying to do it durring the compare

16:21:23 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

16:21:32 <gavinc> q+

q+

16:21:41 <ericP> editorially, we could motivate this by use cases: "For use cases which motivate equivalence between XML literals, generators of XML literals rfc2119:SHOULD canonicalize XML literals by XML Canonicalization"

Eric Prud'hommeaux: editorially, we could motivate this by use cases: "For use cases which motivate equivalence between XML literals, generators of XML literals rfc2119:SHOULD canonicalize XML literals by XML Canonicalization"

16:21:48 <gavinc> ack AndyS

ack AndyS

16:22:13 <gavinc> AndyS: You said that the XML comunity has done some work on equality?

Andy Seaborne: You said that the XML comunity has done some work on equality?

16:22:42 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: XML C14N talks about equality, XML infoset doesn't.

Jeremy Carroll: XML C14N talks about equality, XML infoset doesn't.

16:22:54 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Namespaces are an example of this.

Jeremy Carroll: Namespaces are an example of this.

16:23:18 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: XML C14N addresses what to do with XML Namespaces

Jeremy Carroll: XML C14N addresses what to do with XML Namespaces

16:23:28 <Guus> ack pfps

Guus Schreiber: ack pfps

16:23:29 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: There are not perfect answers here.

Jeremy Carroll: There are not perfect answers here.

16:24:08 <gavinc> pfps: If reading from an XML document, I understand why you need to get this right, but if your not using XML documents. In Turtle you can treat them as string

Peter Patel-Schneider: If reading from an XML document, I understand why you need to get this right, but if your not using XML documents. In Turtle you can treat them as string

16:24:26 <gavinc> Guus: This could be in RDF/XML no RDF Concepts?

Guus Schreiber: This could be in RDF/XML no RDF Concepts?

16:25:35 <PatH> if this is optional as a datatype, then we can have two kinds of xml literals with different mappings and values.

Patrick Hayes: if this is optional as a datatype, then we can have two kinds of xml literals with different mappings and values.

16:25:39 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I think pfps, I think XMLLiteral should compare as a String, and RDF/XML should do the XML C14N, but in Turtle don't do anything. Only works if hand codded perfectly.

Jeremy Carroll: I think pfps, I think XMLLiteral should compare as a String, and RDF/XML should do the XML C14N, but in Turtle don't do anything. Only works if hand codded perfectly.

16:26:14 <ericP> gavinc: pfps's approach sounds OK

Gavin Carothers: pfps's approach sounds OK [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

16:26:35 <ericP> ... i've used XML literals a fair amount. I don't think XML literal meets any of its original use cases.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... i've used XML literals a fair amount. I don't think XML literal meets any of its original use cases.

16:26:51 <ericP> ... you can't use it for fragments 'cause c14n talks about documents

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... you can't use it for fragments 'cause c14n talks about documents

16:26:58 <ericP> ... fragments get strange

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... fragments get strange

16:27:13 <JeremyCarroll> hmmm - xc14n is all about fragments not documents ...

Jeremy Carroll: hmmm - xc14n is all about fragments not documents ...

16:27:23 <ericP> ... adding formatted XML into RDF seems like a good use case, but we can't use c14n

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... adding formatted XML into RDF seems like a good use case, but we can't use c14n

16:27:35 <PatH> in this pfps proposal, what is the L2V map? what are the literal values? c14n or text?

Patrick Hayes: in this pfps proposal, what is the L2V map? what are the literal values? c14n or text?

16:27:47 <ericP> ... we and others put escaped XML into strings

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... we and others put escaped HTML into strings

16:28:21 <gavinc> Guus: I don't want to spend a huge ammount of time on this issue.

Guus Schreiber: I don't want to spend a huge ammount of time on this issue.

16:28:24 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

16:28:30 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to correct Gavin's backwards

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to correct Gavin's backwards

16:28:34 <gavinc> s/escaped XML/escaped HTML
16:29:09 <ericP> q+

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+

16:29:10 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute me

Jeremy Carroll: Zakim, unmute me

16:29:10 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

16:29:12 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:29:12 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:32:21 <AndyS> ack ericP

Andy Seaborne: ack ericP

16:32:35 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin raise issue around formated text literals

ACTION Gavin raise issue around formated text literals

16:32:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Raise issue around formated text literals [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-12-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-124 - Raise issue around formated text literals [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-12-07].

16:33:01 <gavinc> ack gavin

ack gavin

16:33:17 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll

Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll

16:33:18 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to correct Gavin's backwards

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to correct Gavin's backwards

16:33:23 <gavinc> ericP: ... said stuff about XML C14N ...

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... said stuff about XML C14N ...

16:34:01 <gavinc> Guus: what is the impact?

Guus Schreiber: what is the impact?

16:34:33 <gavinc> ericP: for some use cases, generators should use XML C14N

Eric Prud'hommeaux: for some use cases, generators should use XML C14N

16:34:38 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Jeremy Carroll: q+

16:34:43 <PatH> editorial...

Patrick Hayes: editorial...

16:34:58 <gavinc> ericP: Pushing back on only being in RDF/XML

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Pushing back on only being in RDF/XML

16:35:23 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: That's a large editoral change.

Jeremy Carroll: That's a large editoral change.

16:35:57 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Muddling up use cases with normative text is not a direction I want the specs to do

Jeremy Carroll: Muddling up use cases with normative text is not a direction I want the specs to go

16:36:01 <gavinc> s/do/go
16:36:27 <gavinc> Topic: Turtle and SPARQL escapes

3. Turtle and SPARQL escapes

16:36:55 <gavinc> Guus: is there consensus?

Guus Schreiber: is there consensus?

16:37:30 <gavinc> AndyS: I thought Richards desire and ericP's desires could be resolved with character escapes

Andy Seaborne: I thought Richards desire and ericP's desires could be resolved with character escapes

16:37:52 <gavinc> AndyS: SPARQL can go on with a at risk feature.

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL can go on with a at risk feature.

16:38:20 <gavinc> q+

q+

16:38:41 <gavinc> AndyS: Haven't seen a responce from ericP

Andy Seaborne: Haven't seen a responce from ericP

16:38:50 <gavinc> ericP: I see all of it as an improvement

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I see all of it as an improvement

16:38:51 <ericP> +1 from me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 from me

16:39:57 <Zakim> +Arnaud.a

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud.a

16:40:24 <Zakim> -Arnaud_LeHors

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud_LeHors

16:40:48 <AndyS> If this has consensus, SPARQL-WG can proceed as described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0229.html

Andy Seaborne: If this has consensus, SPARQL-WG can proceed as described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0229.html

16:44:02 <PatH> The 'committee' heuristic: always make as few binding decisions as possible.

Patrick Hayes: The 'committee' heuristic: always make as few binding decisions as possible.

16:45:07 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0249.html (first comment)

Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0249.html (first comment)

16:45:51 <gavinc> "Is escaping the URI-legal, non-alphanumerics as character escapes acceptable to you?"

"Is escaping the URI-legal, non-alphanumerics as character escapes acceptable to you?"

16:46:33 <JeremyCarroll> shall we create an action to make the text?

Jeremy Carroll: shall we create an action to make the text?

16:46:51 <gavinc>    <identifier_char>: [a-zA-Z0-9-] | \\[URI-legal, non-alphanumerics]

<identifier_char>: [a-zA-Z0-9-] | \\[URI-legal, non-alphanumerics]

16:47:23 <gavinc> Topic: Named Graphs

4. Named Graphs

16:47:44 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

16:47:53 <JeremyCarroll> q-

Jeremy Carroll: q-

16:47:56 <gavinc> Guus: There have been some messages on the uses of the 4th column

Guus Schreiber: There have been some messages on the uses of the 4th column

16:47:59 <gavinc> ack gavinc

ack gavinc

16:48:02 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:48:34 <gavinc> Guus: IRI in the 4th column seems to be the consensus

Guus Schreiber: IRI in the 4th column seems to be the consensus

16:48:53 <gavinc> AZ: It is still useful to have Literals in the 4th column

Antoine Zimmermann: It is still useful to have Literals in the 4th column

16:49:14 <gavinc> Guus: has to be extreamly compelling to change the design

Guus Schreiber: has to be extreamly compelling to change the design

16:49:44 <gavinc> AZ: For temporal RDF, people are annotating with VALUE, not a IRI

Antoine Zimmermann: For temporal RDF, people are annotating with VALUE, not a IRI

16:50:00 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Jeremy Carroll: q+

16:50:30 <gavinc> AZ: other proposals that annotate with trust values, which again, are values.

Antoine Zimmermann: other proposals that annotate with trust values, which again, are values.

16:50:44 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:50:44 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:50:50 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

16:51:12 <gavinc> PatH: Allow literals in 4th positions, one can imagine uses

Patrick Hayes: Allow literals in 4th positions, one can imagine uses

16:51:27 <gavinc> PatH: I don't think we have preserve existing desgin, we don't have one

Patrick Hayes: I don't think we have preserve existing desgin, we don't have one

16:51:43 <AZ> strong +1 PatH

Antoine Zimmermann: strong +1 PatH

16:51:49 <gavinc> PatH: Should not prohibit values in fields in RDF

Patrick Hayes: Should not prohibit values in fields in RDF

16:52:40 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Original design had a 5th column

Jeremy Carroll: Original design had a 5th column

16:53:22 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: When you think about it, you want to talk about small graphs (molecules). Give those subgraphs name...

Jeremy Carroll: When you think about it, you want to talk about small graphs (molecules). Give those subgraphs name...

16:53:23 <PatH> the fourth column need not be a graph name. We dont yet have enough experience to know how quads may be used.

Patrick Hayes: the fourth column need not be a graph name. We dont yet have enough experience to know how quads may be used.

16:53:39 <PatH> q

Patrick Hayes: q

16:53:44 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

16:53:54 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:54:15 <Guus> ack AZ

Guus Schreiber: ack AZ

16:54:25 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll

Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll

16:54:28 <gavinc> ... I don't understand the restince to I don't understand the resistance to named graphs.

... I don't understand the restince to I don't understand the resistance to named graphs.

16:54:40 <gavinc> AZ: Need to be able to relate the IRI to the graph itself as the label.

Antoine Zimmermann: Need to be able to relate the IRI to the graph itself as the label.

16:54:51 <gavinc> AZ: The IRI doesn't denote the graph

Antoine Zimmermann: The IRI doesn't denote the graph

16:54:55 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

16:55:01 <gavinc> AZ: Then you can't annotate the triples

Antoine Zimmermann: Then you can't annotate the triples

16:56:08 <gavinc> PatH: the 4th column doesn't denote, so we shouldn't restrict how it's used

Patrick Hayes: the 4th column doesn't denote, so we shouldn't restrict how it's used

16:56:38 <gavinc> Guus: We don't require the 4th column to denote, so we shouldn't place other requirements on the 4th column

Guus Schreiber: We don't require the 4th column to denote, so we shouldn't place other requirements on the 4th column

16:57:23 <ericP> q+ to mention some bias towards IRIs for graph names in SPARQL

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to mention some bias towards IRIs for graph names in SPARQL

16:58:03 <PatH> losing sound?

Patrick Hayes: losing sound?

16:58:05 <AZ> in SPARQL does really have a "fourth column"

Antoine Zimmermann: in SPARQL does really have a "fourth column"

16:58:28 <gavinc> AndyS: SPARQL does not "denote", but does require an IRI

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL does not "denote", but does require an IRI

16:59:15 <PatH> to hell with writing a spec in order to preserve someone's optimizers.

Patrick Hayes: to hell with writing a spec in order to preserve someone's optimizers.

16:59:29 <pchampin> anyway, SPARQL does allow literals in subject position, doesnt it?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: anyway, SPARQL does allow literals in subject position, doesnt it?

16:59:42 <pchampin> so optimizing that way is already non-compliant :)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: so optimizing that way is already non-compliant :)

16:59:42 <gavinc> AndyS: The words in the SPARQL algebra say IRI, but could change.

Andy Seaborne: The words in the SPARQL algebra say IRI, but could change.

17:00:26 <gavinc> Guus: Would feel more comfortable if the SPARQL working group would respond formally

Guus Schreiber: Would feel more comfortable if the SPARQL working group would respond formally

17:00:57 <AZ> To me it's ok to have SPARQL forbid literals as "name for graphs", it's just that quads with literals would not translate directly to SPARQL datasets

Antoine Zimmermann: To me it's ok to have SPARQL forbid literals as "name for graphs", it's just that quads with literals would not translate directly to SPARQL datasets

17:01:06 <gavinc> ACTION Guus to ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column

ACTION Guus to ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column

17:01:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - Ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column  [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-12-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-125 - Ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-12-07].

17:01:09 <ericP> q-

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q-

17:01:10 <PatH> +i az

Patrick Hayes: +i az

17:01:10 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

17:01:18 <PatH> +1 az

Patrick Hayes: +1 az

17:01:48 <AndyS> ... That's a gotcha. :-(

Andy Seaborne: ... That's a gotcha. :-(

17:02:16 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)

17:03:20 <pchampin> q+

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+

17:03:46 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll

Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll

17:03:46 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)

17:04:00 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

17:04:00 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

17:04:04 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: The thing with RDF is that we don't have a Triple. We have a subject, predicate, and object. Those are all different

Jeremy Carroll: The thing with RDF is that we don't have a Triple. We have a subject, predicate, and object. Those are all different

17:04:22 <ericP> i didn't see any LL(1) or LALR(1) grammar conflicts when adding literals to http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker?name=trigTurtle&replace=1&lang=perl#prod-trigTurtle_EGP-graph

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i didn't see any LL(1) or LALR(1) grammar conflicts when adding literals to http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker?name=trigTurtle&replace=1&lang=perl#prod-trigTurtle_EGP-graph

17:04:47 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: That is the design. The design is about making choices. You get inter op by having a design and limitations.

Jeremy Carroll: That is the design. The design is about making choices. You get inter op by having a design and limitations.

17:04:53 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

17:05:32 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: The goal of named graphs was to add the least amount of change to address new use cases.

Jeremy Carroll: The goal of named graphs was to add the least amount of change to address new use cases.

17:05:52 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I don't see allowing literals in the 4th field to be anything other then us failing to do our jobs

Jeremy Carroll: I don't see allowing literals in the 4th field to be anything other then us failing to do our jobs

17:05:53 <AndyS> Does any TriG parser enforce one-use of an IRI to id a graph?

Andy Seaborne: Does any TriG parser enforce one-use of an IRI to id a graph?

17:06:51 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

17:06:51 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

17:07:07 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

17:07:19 <AndyS> q+ to ask to finalize escape item

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask to finalize escape item

17:07:35 <AZ> If it's doomed to be an IRI, then we should be more precise about what that IRI refers to

Antoine Zimmermann: If it's doomed to be an IRI, then we should be more precise about what that IRI refers to

17:07:35 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: the purpose of a standards body is to make decisions in the design

Jeremy Carroll: the purpose of a standards body is to make decisions in the design [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ]

17:07:47 <gavinc> pchampin: no one wants to restrict what the 4th column can be

Pierre-Antoine Champin: no one wants to restrict what the 4th column can be

17:08:02 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: not to provide general machinery that can be used in a non-interoperable fashion

Jeremy Carroll: not to provide general machinery that can be used in a non-interoperable fashion [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ]

17:08:29 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: previous group went for Subject, Predicate, Object as a triple, not three general items

Jeremy Carroll: previous group went for Subject, Predicate, Object as a triple, not three general items [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ]

17:08:45 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: we should specify what the 4th column is specifiying

Jeremy Carroll: we should specify what the 4th column is specifiying [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ]

17:08:45 <gavinc> pchampin: going back to older proposal graph is not labeled not by an IRI but by a resource

Pierre-Antoine Champin: going back to older proposal graph is not labeled not by an IRI but by a resource

17:08:55 <pchampin> ack pa

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack pa

17:09:01 <pchampin> ack pchampin

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack pchampin

17:09:02 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: making it identify the graph is clear and works with the previous spec

Jeremy Carroll: making it identify the graph is clear and works with the previous spec [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ]

17:09:41 <gavinc> PatH: I'm sympathetic with JeremyCarroll's position. I like that design. I've been working there for some months, but that it's untenable.

Patrick Hayes: I'm sympathetic with JeremyCarroll's position. I like that design. I've been working there for some months, but that it's untenable.

17:09:50 <gavinc> ... quad stores violate that design.

... quad stores violate that design.

17:10:09 <gavinc> ... we need to rethink what that 4th position is

... we need to rethink what that 4th position is

17:10:17 <gavinc> ... we shouldn't tie ourselves up

... we shouldn't tie ourselves up

17:10:48 <pchampin> +1 to pat

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to pat

17:10:52 <gavinc> Guus: If the IRI is not forced to denote, then we should make very clear why it's an IRI

Guus Schreiber: If the IRI is not forced to denote, then we should make very clear why it's an IRI

17:11:43 <gavinc> Topic: Back to Escapes

5. Back to Escapes

17:11:56 <AndyS> (this discussion invalidates my action 119)

Andy Seaborne: (this discussion invalidates my ACTION-119)

17:12:04 <AndyS> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

Andy Seaborne: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

17:12:10 <AndyS> Any generated IRI is still subject to rule governing the legality of IRIs.  e.g. og:audio\:title  (This does not cover one way or the other (1) adding %xx with unescaped % in PN_LOCAL (2) \u escapes in Turtle)

Andy Seaborne: Any generated IRI is still subject to rule governing the legality of IRIs. e.g. og:audio\:title (This does not cover one way or the other (1) adding %xx with unescaped % in PN_LOCAL (2) \u escapes in Turtle)

17:12:23 <PatH> I will escape now:-)

Patrick Hayes: I will escape now:-)

17:12:29 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

17:13:58 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

PROPOSED: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

17:13:59 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

17:14:01 <gavinc> +1

+1

17:14:38 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

17:14:38 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

17:15:45 <gavinc> ISSUE-67

ISSUE-67

17:15:47 <MacTed> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

Ted Thibodeau: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

17:15:48 <gavinc> ISSUE-67

ISSUE-67

17:15:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- \xxxx escaping in prefixed names -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-67 -- \xxxx escaping in prefixed names -- open

17:15:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/67

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/67

17:16:02 <gavinc> ISSUE-74

ISSUE-74

17:16:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open

17:16:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74

17:16:45 <MacTed> +1 to proposal, with my insert  :-)

Ted Thibodeau: +1 to proposal, with my insert :-)

17:16:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

17:16:48 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

17:17:31 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

17:17:35 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

17:17:43 <gavinc>  +1

+1

17:17:43 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

17:17:59 <AndyS> RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is   ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_  (token:  PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).

17:18:26 <gavinc> trackbot, end meeting

trackbot, end meeting

17:18:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:18:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP, +1.850.377.aabb, Arnaud_LeHors,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP, +1.850.377.aabb, Arnaud_LeHors,

17:18:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:18:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

17:18:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:18:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

17:18:29 <Zakim> ... charlesgreer, +1.415.586.aacc, JeremyCarroll, PatH, NickH, pchampin, Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: ... charlesgreer, +1.415.586.aacc, JeremyCarroll, PatH, NickH, pchampin, Arnaud

17:18:31 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider



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This revision (#1) generated 2011-11-30 21:27:49 UTC by 'gcarothe', comments: None