None.
There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.
It may be helpful to
14:58:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:58:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:58:43 <moustaki> Zakim, this is rdf-wg
Yves Raimond: Zakim, this is rdf-wg ←
14:58:43 <Zakim> sorry, moustaki, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, moustaki, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time ←
14:58:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:58:46 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
14:58:46 <trackbot> Date: 05 October 2011
14:58:55 <moustaki> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:58:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, moustaki
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, moustaki ←
14:58:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, moustaki, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, moustaki, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
14:59:35 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:59:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr ←
14:59:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
15:00:12 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:00:13 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr ←
15:00:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see iand, cygri_, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see iand, cygri_, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ←
15:00:21 <Zakim> ... ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP ←
15:00:30 <gavinc> trackbot, start meeting
Gavin Carothers: trackbot, start meeting ←
15:00:30 <davidwood> Zakim, this is rdfwg
David Wood: Zakim, this is rdfwg ←
15:00:31 <Zakim> ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
15:00:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:00:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:00:35 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:00:35 <trackbot> Date: 05 October 2011
15:00:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now ←
15:00:42 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:00:44 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
Zakim IRC Bot: I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted ←
15:00:44 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:00:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P7, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P4, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P7, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa ←
15:00:46 <Zakim> -??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P7 ←
15:00:50 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider.a ←
15:00:52 <swh> Zakim, what is the code?
Steve Harris: Zakim, what is the code? ←
15:00:53 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P4 is me ←
15:00:54 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
15:00:56 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), swh
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), swh ←
15:00:56 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, aaaa is me ←
15:00:58 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> +nunolopes
Zakim IRC Bot: +nunolopes ←
15:01:02 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it ←
15:01:03 <cygri_> zakim, nunolopes is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, nunolopes is me ←
15:01:04 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider.a
Scribe problem: the name 'Peter_Patel-Schneider.a' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jean-François Baget Adrien BASSE Scott Bauer Dan Brickley Matteo Brunati Gaoussou CAMARA Gavin Carothers Jeremy Carroll Pierre-Antoine Champin Kiu Ching Chieh Olivier Corby Richard Cyganiak Souripriya Das Ian Davis Lee Feigenbaum Fabien Gandon Alex Hall Steve Harris Michael Hausenblas Sandro Hawke Patrick Hayes Ivan Herman Nicholas Humfrey Kingsley Idehen Arnaud Le Hors Dickson Lukose Christopher Matheus Ivan Mikhailov Peter Patel-Schneider Axel Polleres Eric Prud'hommeaux Yves Raimond Nathan Rixham Guus Schreiber Andy Seaborne Manu Sporny Thomas Steiner Mouhamadou THIAM Ted Thibodeau Mischa Tuffield William Waites Jan Wielemaker David Wood Zhe Wu Mohamed ZERGAOUI Antoine Zimmermann Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider.a ←
15:01:05 <ww> zakim, ??P14 is me
William Waites: zakim, ??P14 is me ←
15:01:06 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:01:08 <Zakim> +cygri_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri_; got it ←
15:01:10 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
15:01:11 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:01:17 <ww> zakim, please mute me
William Waites: zakim, please mute me ←
15:01:18 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:01:22 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:01:25 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:01:26 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
15:01:28 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P15 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P15 is me ←
15:01:29 <yvesr> scribe: yvesr
(Scribe set to Yves Raimond)
15:01:30 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:01:32 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it ←
15:01:37 <gavinc> zakim, who is talking?
Gavin Carothers: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:01:41 <Zakim> -??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P13 ←
15:01:49 <Zakim> gavinc, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (4%)
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (4%) ←
15:01:52 <davidwood> Scribe Yves Raimond
David Wood: Scribe Yves Raimond ←
15:01:59 <davidwood> Scribe: Yves raimond
15:02:01 <Zakim> +??P18
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18 ←
15:02:08 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:02:09 <davidwood> scribenick: yvesr
15:02:13 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:02:13 <Guus> zakim, ??p18 is me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, ??p18 is me ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it ←
15:02:19 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
15:02:19 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
15:02:20 <swh> Zakim, ??P13 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P13 is me ←
15:02:21 <Zakim> +swh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it ←
15:02:24 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:02:31 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:02:37 <SteveH> Zakim, SteveH is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, SteveH is me ←
15:02:37 <Zakim> sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named 'SteveH'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named 'SteveH' ←
15:02:38 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
15:02:47 <SteveH> Zakim, swh is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, swh is me ←
15:02:47 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
15:02:53 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me ←
15:02:53 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
15:02:54 <iand> oops
15:02:56 <Zakim> + +33.4.77.42.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.77.42.aacc ←
15:03:07 <AZ> Zakim, aacc is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, aacc is me ←
15:03:07 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:03:13 <iand> mischat: one of us is p16, one is p17
Mischa Tuffield: one of us is p16, one is p17 [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
15:03:18 <Zakim> -??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17 ←
15:03:21 <Guus> [partial regrets, have to leave after 30 min for the airport]
Guus Schreiber: [partial regrets, have to leave after 30 min for the airport] ←
15:03:22 <iand> i was p17
15:03:27 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:03:34 <mischat> zakim, ??P16 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P16 is me ←
15:03:35 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
15:03:39 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:03:39 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:03:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:03:41 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:03:46 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
15:03:46 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
15:03:51 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
15:03:52 <davidwood> Zakim, ??P17 is iand
David Wood: Zakim, ??P17 is iand ←
15:03:53 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as MacTed, davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P17 as MacTed, davidwood ←
15:04:12 <Zakim> + +1.507.261.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.507.261.aadd ←
15:04:18 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:04:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted), ←
15:04:21 <Zakim> ... ??P26, +1.507.261.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ??P26, +1.507.261.aadd ←
15:04:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS, ←
15:04:24 <Zakim> ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
15:04:26 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
15:04:45 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, aadd is me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, aadd is me ←
15:04:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it ←
15:04:48 <Zakim> -??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P26 ←
15:05:04 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, mute me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, mute me ←
15:05:04 <Zakim> Scott_Bauer should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Scott_Bauer should now be muted ←
15:05:16 <yvesr> davidwood: i'd like to go through the scribe list
David Wood: i'd like to go through the scribe list ←
15:05:19 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
15:05:26 <iand> zakim, ??p26 is me
Ian Davis: zakim, ??p26 is me ←
15:05:26 <Zakim> +iand; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +iand; got it ←
15:05:26 <yvesr> davidwood: adding new members on the scribe list
David Wood: adding new members on the scribe list ←
15:05:34 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:05:36 <mbrunati> today only via irc, phone problems
Matteo Brunati: today only via irc, phone problems ←
15:06:03 <AndyS1> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
15:06:06 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
15:06:10 <yvesr> davidwood: minutes accepted
David Wood: minutes accepted ←
15:06:20 <yvesr> TOPIC: action items review
15:06:38 <yvesr> davidwood: lisiase with html data task force for turtle in html
David Wood: liaise with html data task force for turtle in html ←
15:06:45 <yvesr> davidwood: corresponding action closed
David Wood: corresponding action closed ←
15:07:00 <yvesr> s/lisiase/liaise
15:07:09 <gavinc> sadly did it twice thanks to gmail :(
Gavin Carothers: sadly did it twice thanks to gmail :( ←
15:07:29 <yvesr> davidwood: Guus had two action items
David Wood: Guus had two action items ←
15:07:45 <Guus> we haven't done that yet, will talk to Fabien
Guus Schreiber: we haven't done that yet, will talk to Fabien ←
15:08:23 <yvesr> TOPIC: F2F planning
15:08:41 <yvesr> davidwood: f2f either at MIT or BBC
David Wood: f2f either at MIT or BBC ←
15:08:59 <mischat> please update this page with your intentions http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2
Mischa Tuffield: please update this page with your intentions http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2 ←
15:09:57 <mischat> yvesr: the bbc are struggling to get the video conference system working, at a bare minimum we will have a webcam. everything is behind a proxy,
Yves Raimond: the bbc are struggling to get the video conference system working, at a bare minimum we will have a webcam. everything is behind a proxy, [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:10:35 <mischat> davidwood: people should turn up a bit earlier at the bbc so that we can make sure that everyone gets online and set before the MIT lot turn up
David Wood: people should turn up a bit earlier at the bbc so that we can make sure that everyone gets online and set before the MIT lot turn up [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:10:56 <mischat> yvesr: people should email Yves if you want to hang out and have dinner after the days play
Yves Raimond: people should email Yves if you want to hang out and have dinner after the days play [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:11:52 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:11:53 <yvesr> TOPIC: scribe list
15:11:56 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes ←
15:12:09 <yvesr> davidwood: who should we drop off the scribe list?
David Wood: who should we drop off the scribe list? ←
15:12:22 <mischat> nathan hasn't for a while
Mischa Tuffield: nathan hasn't for a while ←
15:12:25 <yvesr> davidwood: any suggestions for people that have not shown up?
David Wood: any suggestions for people that have not shown up? ←
15:12:47 <mischat> axel ?
Mischa Tuffield: axel ? ←
15:12:54 <gavinc> Nathan Rixham
Gavin Carothers: Nathan Rixham ←
15:13:12 <yvesr> ivan: Mohamed hasn't shown up, and Nathan
Ivan Herman: Mohamed hasn't shown up, and Nathan ←
15:13:18 <mischat> how about Axel Polleres
Mischa Tuffield: how about Axel Polleres ←
15:13:19 <mischat> ?
Mischa Tuffield: ? ←
15:13:27 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is here? ←
15:13:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted), ←
15:13:31 <Zakim> ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro ←
15:13:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS, ←
15:13:36 <Zakim> ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
15:13:46 <yvesr> ivan: Axel? Matteo?
Ivan Herman: Axel? Matteo? ←
15:14:48 <yvesr> ivan: Jean-Francois?
Ivan Herman: Jean-Francois? ←
15:15:10 <Scott_Bauer> I'm on the call as well
Scott Bauer: I'm on the call as well ←
15:15:16 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:15:46 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ??p2
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute ??p2 ←
15:15:46 <Zakim> ??P2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ??P2 should now be muted ←
15:15:50 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
15:15:50 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:15:52 <NickH> thanks!
Nicholas Humfrey: thanks! ←
15:16:27 <ww> davidwood: i am not on the list! but happy to scribe after the F2F
David Wood: i am not on the list! but happy to scribe after the F2F [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
15:16:44 <yvesr> ivan: heard back from our admin that the zakim channel is opened on both days
Ivan Herman: heard back from our admin that the zakim channel is opened on both days ←
15:16:54 <ivan> code: 733294 ("RDF2WG")
Scribe problem: the name 'code' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jean-François Baget Adrien BASSE Scott Bauer Dan Brickley Matteo Brunati Gaoussou CAMARA Gavin Carothers Jeremy Carroll Pierre-Antoine Champin Kiu Ching Chieh Olivier Corby Richard Cyganiak Souripriya Das Ian Davis Lee Feigenbaum Fabien Gandon Alex Hall Steve Harris Michael Hausenblas Sandro Hawke Patrick Hayes Ivan Herman Nicholas Humfrey Kingsley Idehen Arnaud Le Hors Dickson Lukose Christopher Matheus Ivan Mikhailov Peter Patel-Schneider Axel Polleres Eric Prud'hommeaux Yves Raimond Nathan Rixham Guus Schreiber Andy Seaborne Manu Sporny Thomas Steiner Mouhamadou THIAM Ted Thibodeau Mischa Tuffield William Waites Jan Wielemaker David Wood Zhe Wu Mohamed ZERGAOUI Antoine Zimmermann Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown code: 733294 ("RDF2WG") [ Scribe Assist by Ivan Herman ] ←
15:16:57 <yvesr> sandro: the code will be rdf2wg
Sandro Hawke: the code will be rdf2wg ←
15:16:59 <sandro> for F2F
Sandro Hawke: for F2F ←
15:17:09 <yvesr> sandro: i will update the wiki page
David Wood: i will update the wiki page ←
15:17:27 <mbrunati> sorry for the last weeks, not enough time ( we are making a contest on open data ), F2F probably only remote for the BBC place, and december not able to scribe ( my marriage )
Matteo Brunati: sorry for the last weeks, not enough time ( we are making a contest on open data ), F2F probably only remote for the BBC place, and december not able to scribe ( my marriage ) ←
15:17:34 <yvesr> TOPIC: Named Graphs
15:17:41 <sandro> s/sandro:/david:/
15:17:49 <yvesr> davidwood: we have two proposals
David Wood: we have two proposals ←
15:18:01 <yvesr> davidwood: ... and we have a f2f next week
David Wood: ... and we have a f2f next week ←
15:18:08 <yvesr> davidwood: ... we need to have a good plan by next week
David Wood: ... we need to have a good plan by next week ←
15:18:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:18:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted), ←
15:18:21 <Zakim> ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro, NickH (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro, NickH (muted) ←
15:18:46 <Guus> yes
Guus Schreiber: yes ←
15:19:39 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs ←
15:20:14 <yvesr> davidwood: the graph task forcepage needs to be updated
David Wood: the graph task force page needs to be updated ←
15:20:29 <yvesr> s/forcepage/force page
15:20:46 <sandro> action: richard to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help)
ACTION: richard to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) ←
15:20:47 <yvesr> cygri: i can do it, but it would be good if someone could contribute as well
Richard Cyganiak: i can do it, but it would be good if someone could contribute as well ←
15:20:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-94 - Update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12]. ←
15:20:57 <yvesr> davidwood: the two proposals come from sandro and cygri
David Wood: the two proposals come from sandro and cygri ←
15:21:05 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
15:21:16 <yvesr> davidwood: the use-cases page needs to be cleaned up
David Wood: the use-cases page needs to be cleaned up ←
15:21:40 <yvesr> davidwood: sandro tried to get to the core of those use-cases in his recent emails with the proveance xg
David Wood: sandro tried to get to the core of those use-cases in his recent emails with the proveance xg ←
15:21:52 <yvesr> davidwood: it would be good to define test cases from these use cases
David Wood: it would be good to define test cases from these use cases ←
15:22:02 <yvesr> davidwood: which would serve as a basis for evaluation
David Wood: which would serve as a basis for evaluation ←
15:22:15 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:22:35 <yvesr> davidwood: it might be possible to collapse some use cases together
David Wood: it might be possible to collapse some use cases together ←
15:23:22 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:23:54 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:24:09 <yvesr> ivan: we need to be looking at just 5 or 4 use cases, otherwise we'll be lost
Ivan Herman: we need to be looking at just 5 or 4 use cases, otherwise we'll be lost ←
15:24:17 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
15:24:17 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
15:24:22 <yvesr> davidwood: right now, we have 27 use cases
David Wood: right now, we have 27 use cases ←
15:24:30 <yvesr> davidwood: ... most of those overlap
David Wood: ... most of those overlap ←
15:24:39 <yvesr> davidwood: ... it woul dbe better if we had 5!
David Wood: ... it woul dbe better if we had 5! ←
15:24:54 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:25:18 <yvesr> cygri: agreed that 27 use cases is too much, but it doesn't make sense to pick just one
Richard Cyganiak: agreed that 27 use cases is too much, but it doesn't make sense to pick just one ←
15:25:46 <yvesr> cygri: some of the use-cases come from practical use cases
Richard Cyganiak: some of the use-cases come from practical use cases ←
15:25:47 <sandro> +1 the fish-restaurant use case should not be the only one. there are more immediate ones.
Sandro Hawke: +1 the fish-restaurant use case should not be the only one. there are more immediate ones. ←
15:25:57 <yvesr> cygri: ... rather than just 'this is what we could do'
Richard Cyganiak: ... rather than just 'this is what we could do' ←
15:26:27 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
15:26:58 <sandro> cygri: 1.6, 1.2
Richard Cyganiak: 1.6, 1.1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:27:04 <yvesr> cygri: particularly interesting ones are, to me, 1.6 - versioning, 1.1 - overlap between content of graphs,
Richard Cyganiak: particularly interesting ones are, to me, 1.6 - versioning, 1.1 - overlap between content of graphs, ←
15:27:11 <davidwood> s/1.2/1.1/
15:27:26 <yvesr> cygri: ... i'd like everyone in the group to do that on the mailing list
Richard Cyganiak: ... i'd like everyone in the group to do that on the mailing list ←
15:27:36 <sandro> +1: please nominate your favorite use case.
Sandro Hawke: +1 please nominate your favorite use case. ←
15:27:44 <sandro> s/://
15:27:53 <yvesr> davidwood: provencance use cases are important
David Wood: provencance use cases are important ←
15:27:59 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:28:02 <ww> i would argue that 6.2 bears on provenance
William Waites: i would argue that 6.2 bears on provenance ←
15:28:05 <yvesr> davidwood: ... that's why we are liaising with the provencance xg
David Wood: ... that's why we are liaising with the provenance xg ←
15:28:10 <gavinc> I like 5.2
Gavin Carothers: I like 5.2 ←
15:28:12 <mischat> s/xg/wg/
Mischa Tuffield: s/xg/wg/ ←
15:28:15 <yvesr> s/provencance/provenance
15:28:29 <gavinc> rather 5.2 is rather important to TopQuadrant
Gavin Carothers: rather 5.2 is rather important to TopQuadrant ←
15:28:45 <sandro> WARNING -- NUMBERS MAY CHANGE. THESE NUMBERS REFER TO http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/index.php?title=TF-Graphs-UC&oldid=1473
Sandro Hawke: WARNING -- NUMBERS MAY CHANGE. THESE NUMBERS REFER TO http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/index.php?title=TF-Graphs-UC&oldid=1473 ←
15:28:52 <SteveH> 1.5 is important to us
Steve Harris: 1.5 is important to us ←
15:29:05 <mischat> yvesr: has just added in a use-case given to him by Denny, about wiki based issues in the wikimedia project
Yves Raimond: has just added in a use-case given to him by Denny, about wiki based issues in the wikimedia project [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:29:06 <yvesr> yvesr: new use case from Denny, about Wikidata (Wikimedia project)
Yves Raimond: new use case from Denny, about Wikidata (Wikimedia project) ←
15:29:33 <Scott_Bauer> 4.8 has become obsolete and could be safely eliminated from the list if it overlaps with others
Scott Bauer: 4.8 has become obsolete and could be safely eliminated from the list if it overlaps with others ←
15:29:40 <Guus> I will provide example data (triples) about the Europeana Data Model use case, about metadata of heritage objects, including provenance data
Guus Schreiber: I will provide example data (triples) about the Europeana Data Model use case, about metadata of heritage objects, including provenance data ←
15:29:50 <yvesr> davidwood: we need to evaluate proposals against test cases derived from use cases
David Wood: we need to evaluate proposals against test cases derived from use cases ←
15:29:53 <Guus> Target is by Friday
Guus Schreiber: Target is by Friday ←
15:30:09 <Guus> [have to drop off]
Guus Schreiber: [have to drop off] ←
15:30:13 <yvesr> davidwood: it needs to be done before the F2F
David Wood: it needs to be done before the F2F ←
15:30:27 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
15:30:30 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
15:30:31 <yvesr> davidwood: 48 hours
David Wood: 48 hours ←
15:30:32 <Zakim> +??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30 ←
15:31:05 <pchampin> zakim, ??p30 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??p30 is me ←
15:31:05 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:31:45 <yvesr> davidwood: would sandro and cygri be prepared to give an overview of the respective proposals on named graphs? and how they relate to UC?
David Wood: would sandro and cygri be prepared to give an overview of the respective proposals on named graphs? and how they relate to UC? ←
15:31:57 <yvesr> sandro: i don't think i have a proposal, exactly
Sandro Hawke: i don't think i have a proposal, exactly ←
15:32:48 <yvesr> sandro: i might be able to give a list of questions or a summary options
Sandro Hawke: i might be able to give a list of questions or a summary options ←
15:33:11 <yvesr> cygri: i can present my proposal
Richard Cyganiak: i can present my proposal ←
15:33:22 <Scott_Bauer> I should have referred to 4.7, "Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Server" based on the alternate url above.
Scott Bauer: I should have referred to 4.7, "Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Server" based on the alternate url above. ←
15:33:31 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:33:33 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
15:33:33 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:33:39 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
15:33:39 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:33:43 <sandro> action: sandro to present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us.
ACTION: sandro to present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us. ←
15:33:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-10-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-95 - Present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-10-12]. ←
15:34:11 <yvesr> davidwood: focus at the F2F on use-cases, and turn them into test cases
David Wood: focus at the F2F on use-cases, and turn them into test cases ←
15:34:19 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:34:21 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:34:27 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:34:31 <yvesr> action: cygri to present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F
ACTION: cygri to present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F ←
15:34:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-96 - Present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-96 - Present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12]. ←
15:34:33 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:35:08 <yvesr> cygri: i am strugginlg to find the UC that motivates the argument made by PatH and Pierre-Antoine
Richard Cyganiak: i am strugginlg to find the UC that motivates the argument made by PatH and Pierre-Antoine ←
15:36:32 <yvesr> pchampin: i can't speak for PatH, but maybe i can work on a negative example where i show the freedom given by cygri's proposal could be harmful
Pierre-Antoine Champin: i can't speak for PatH, but maybe i can work on a negative example where i show the freedom given by cygri's proposal could be harmful ←
15:37:24 <yvesr> pchampin: a lot of use cases are arguing that an IRI in a graph can be used to access a graph in a dataset
Pierre-Antoine Champin: a lot of use cases are arguing that an IRI in a graph can be used to access a graph in a dataset ←
15:37:34 <yvesr> pchampin: cygri call that a social convention
Pierre-Antoine Champin: cygri call that a social convention ←
15:37:55 <yvesr> pchampin: i think it has surprising consequences
Pierre-Antoine Champin: i think it has surprising consequences ←
15:38:25 <sandro> hard to hear davidwood
Sandro Hawke: hard to hear davidwood ←
15:38:28 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:38:33 <sandro> better
Sandro Hawke: better ←
15:38:39 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (62%), pchampin (22%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (62%), pchampin (22%) ←
15:39:02 <cygri> pchampin, if you could write up that use case (negative or not), that would be much appreciated
Richard Cyganiak: pchampin, if you could write up that use case (negative or not), that would be much appreciated ←
15:39:15 <pchampin> @cygri I will
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @cygri I will ←
15:39:16 <yvesr> davidwood: ability to access a graph by an IRI seems like a non-issue
David Wood: ability to access a graph by an IRI seems like a non-issue ←
15:39:27 <yvesr> davidwood: struggling to understand the counter-argument
David Wood: struggling to understand the counter-argument ←
15:39:38 <pfps> what happens when there is a mismatch between a quad and actuality?
Peter Patel-Schneider: what happens when there is a mismatch between a quad and actuality? ←
15:40:07 <sandro> the same thing as happens any other time there is bad data, pfps, I think....
Sandro Hawke: the same thing as happens any other time there is bad data, pfps, I think.... ←
15:40:47 <pfps> but if quads carry actuality then having them wrong is like having 7 be 8!
Peter Patel-Schneider: but if quads carry actuality then having them wrong is like having 7 be 8! ←
15:41:47 <davidwood> cygri, can you please scribe your comments into IRC?
David Wood: cygri, can you please scribe your comments into IRC? ←
15:41:48 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:42:20 <yvesr> pfps: there is an issue having the semantics of rdf pushing into the semantics of quads
Peter Patel-Schneider: there is an issue having the semantics of rdf pushing into the semantics of quads ←
15:42:26 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:42:51 <yvesr> davidwood: isn't the point of rdf that anybody can say anything about anything?
David Wood: isn't the point of rdf that anybody can say anything about anything? ←
15:42:59 <yvesr> davidwood: if i choose to say that 7 is 8, it's fine
David Wood: if i choose to say that 7 is 8, it's fine ←
15:43:10 <yvesr> pfps: it's different than rdf saying that 7 is 8
Peter Patel-Schneider: it's different than rdf saying that 7 is 8 ←
15:43:26 <yvesr> pfps: we don't have a proposal for how the semantics would work
Peter Patel-Schneider: we don't have a proposal for how the semantics would work ←
15:43:51 <yvesr> pfps: they can be right, but not very useful
Peter Patel-Schneider: they can be right, but not very useful ←
15:43:55 <sandro> thus the drive to make sure our usecases are ... useful. :-)
Sandro Hawke: thus the drive to make sure our usecases are ... useful. :-) ←
15:44:31 <cygri> cygri: i think we agree that in implementations, IRIs can be used to access graphs. the disagreement is about how graph names should be treated in the formal semantics. minimalist position: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only. alternative position: the semantics should make graph IRIs denote the graphs
Richard Cyganiak: i think we agree that in implementations, IRIs can be used to access graphs. the disagreement is about how graph names should be treated in the formal semantics. minimalist position: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only. alternative position: the semantics should make graph IRIs denote the graphs [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
15:44:38 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:45:03 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:45:08 <yvesr> pfps: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only
Peter Patel-Schneider: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only ←
15:45:25 <yvesr> pfps: right now, they do
Peter Patel-Schneider: right now, they do ←
15:45:37 <yvesr> davidwood: should the rdf semantics ignore named graphs?
David Wood: should the rdf semantics ignore named graphs? ←
15:45:50 <yvesr> pfps: you could push those notions in the rdf semantics, but it might not be helpful
Peter Patel-Schneider: you could push those notions in the rdf semantics, but it might not be helpful ←
15:46:30 <yvesr> davidwood: if you have a syntax that allows for named graphs, would you efectively just add triple?
David Wood: if you have a syntax that allows for named graphs, would you efectively just add a triple? ←
15:46:39 <yvesr> s/triple/a triple/
15:47:01 <ww> statement identifiers...
William Waites: statement identifiers... ←
15:47:03 <yvesr> davidwood: does it *need* to impact the semantics?
David Wood: does it *need* to impact the semantics? ←
15:47:21 <yvesr> pfps: leaving named graphs out of semantics looses something, but it might be more trouble than it's worth
Peter Patel-Schneider: leaving named graphs out of semantics loses something, but it might be more trouble than it's worth ←
15:47:35 <Souri> s/looses/loses/
15:47:42 <gavinc> zakim, unmute me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, unmute me ←
15:47:42 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should no longer be muted ←
15:47:53 <yvesr> gavinc: i thought everybody agreed that reification is broken, in rdf
Gavin Carothers: i thought everybody agreed that reification is broken, in rdf ←
15:47:59 <pfps> RDF reification is more trouble (>0) than it is worth (<=0)
Peter Patel-Schneider: RDF reification is more trouble (>0) than it is worth (<=0) ←
15:48:24 <yvesr> davidwood: but could it help us out of the named graphs problem?
David Wood: but could it help us out of the named graphs problem? ←
15:48:39 <yvesr> davidwood: a bounded type of reification, specific to named graphs
David Wood: a bounded type of reification, specific to named graphs ←
15:48:44 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
15:49:13 <Andy> Are we agreed how reification is broken? (and I think it is broken)
Andy Seaborne: Are we agreed how reification is broken? (and I think it is broken) ←
15:49:22 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:49:23 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
15:49:23 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:49:25 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
15:49:25 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:49:29 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:49:45 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
15:50:10 <yvesr> SteveH: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out certain things that people are currently doing
Steve Harris: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out certain things that people are currently doing ←
15:50:16 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
15:50:18 <sandro> SteveH: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out things some people are doing in SPARQL.
Steve Harris: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out things some people are doing in SPARQL. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:50:29 <yvesr> SteveH: we shouldn't do that - we should support creating some structure around what people are doing right now
Steve Harris: we shouldn't do that - we should support creating some structure around what people are doing right now ←
15:50:42 <yvesr> SteveH: we don't want to be enormously disruptive
Steve Harris: we don't want to be enormously disruptive ←
15:50:52 <yvesr> davidwood: you overestimate our impact on the market
David Wood: you overestimate our impact on the market ←
15:50:56 <cygri> SteveH++
Richard Cyganiak: SteveH++ ←
15:51:01 <yvesr> SteveH: but we should try not to get ignored
Steve Harris: but we should try not to get ignored ←
15:51:05 <pchampin> @SteveH: the graph IRI as defined by the RDF spec does not have to be the graph IRI as used by SPARQL
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @SteveH: the graph IRI as defined by the RDF spec does not have to be the graph IRI as used by SPARQL ←
15:51:24 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:51:24 <yvesr> sandro: i can name one of these proposals
Sandro Hawke: i can name one of these proposals ←
15:51:26 <pchampin> though we should be careful to name it differently, of course
Pierre-Antoine Champin: though we should be careful to name it differently, of course ←
15:51:55 <yvesr> sandro: using graph tags to specify the subject of the doc
Sandro Hawke: using graph tags to specify the subject of the doc ←
15:51:56 <LeeF> I think that that's a pretty common practice, isn't it?
Lee Feigenbaum: I think that that's a pretty common practice, isn't it? ←
15:52:24 <gavinc> Yes, TopQuadrant is aware that we shouldn't be doing that ;)
Gavin Carothers: Yes, TopQuadrant is aware that we shouldn't be doing that ;) ←
15:52:25 <yvesr> sandro: other examples would be mandating that a graph URI must be dereferencable
Steve Harris: other examples would be mandating that a graph URI must be dereferencable ←
15:52:35 <yvesr> s/sandro/SteveH
15:52:38 <LeeF> I'm pretty sure dbpedia's SPARQL end point names graphs with the subject of the graph (at least, it did at some point)
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm pretty sure dbpedia's SPARQL end point names graphs with the subject of the graph (at least, it did at some point) ←
15:52:41 <LeeF> Anzo does it as well, in some modes
Lee Feigenbaum: Anzo does it as well, in some modes ←
15:52:46 <yvesr> sandro: we shouldn't impact on anybody's code
Sandro Hawke: we shouldn't impact on anybody's code ←
15:53:04 <gavinc> O'Reilly Media's does too
Gavin Carothers: O'Reilly Media's does too ←
15:53:15 <cygri> LeeF: the one at dbpedia.org/sparlq doesn't. the DBPedia Live one might do it
Richard Cyganiak: LeeF, the one at dbpedia.org/sparlq doesn't. the DBPedia Live one might do it ←
15:53:20 <yvesr> sandro: i think it is bad practice to use the subject as the base id of the graph
Sandro Hawke: i think it is bad practice to use the subject as the base id of the graph ←
15:53:24 <LeeF> s/LeeF:/LeeF,
15:53:48 <yvesr> sandro: maybe we can reach a proposal that is actually helpful, motivating people to switch
Sandro Hawke: maybe we can reach a proposal that is actually helpful, motivating people to switch ←
15:53:52 <yvesr> davidwood: like RDFa 1.1
David Wood: like RDFa 1.1 ←
15:54:05 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:54:05 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:54:33 <gavinc> Btw, the confusion here is rather bad. TopQurant software uses the same "method", everything tends to ask about Base URI
Gavin Carothers: Btw, the confusion here is rather bad. TopQurant software uses the same "method", everything tends to ask about Base URI ←
15:55:10 <yvesr> SteveH: we should look at the linked data work, with no strict conventions about how to name graph
Steve Harris: we should look at the linked data work, with no strict conventions about how to name graph ←
15:55:24 <yvesr> davidwood: if you're right, then we don't need standards
Sandro Hawke: if you're right, then we don't need standards ←
15:55:35 <LeeF> cygri, my experience might have been a long time ago, as well.
Lee Feigenbaum: cygri, my experience might have been a long time ago, as well. ←
15:55:36 <yvesr> SteveH: we still should recommend what to do
Steve Harris: we still should recommend what to do ←
15:55:37 <gavinc> Where base URI == OWL Ontology == Base URI 3986 == Graph Name :\
Gavin Carothers: Where base URI == OWL Ontology == Base URI 3986 == Graph Name :\ ←
15:55:40 <davidwood> That wasn't me!
David Wood: That wasn't me! ←
15:55:43 <LeeF> cygri, also the chance that i'm hopelessly confused :)
Lee Feigenbaum: cygri, also the chance that i'm hopelessly confused :) ←
15:55:45 <Andy> +1 to advice and suggestions and "good practice" docs
Andy Seaborne: +1 to advice and suggestions and "good practice" docs ←
15:55:47 <ww> MAY/SHOULD vs MUST?
William Waites: MAY/SHOULD vs MUST? ←
15:55:53 <sandro> s/davidwood/sandro/
15:55:58 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:55:58 <NickH> SteveH++
Nicholas Humfrey: SteveH++ ←
15:56:06 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:56:08 <gavinc> +1 to andy on advice and good (not best) practices
Gavin Carothers: +1 to andy on advice and good (not best) practices ←
15:56:08 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:56:32 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:56:41 <yvesr> sandro: responding to what pfps said - i don't have a particular position - but intution is that we need more than we have now
Sandro Hawke: responding to what pfps said - i don't have a particular position - but intution is that we need more than we have now ←
15:56:59 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:57:10 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:57:12 <pfps> it appears that we need use cases and worked out solutions to see what machinery is needed
Peter Patel-Schneider: it appears that we need use cases and worked out solutions to see what machinery is needed ←
15:57:47 <sandro> yeah. :-(
Sandro Hawke: yeah. :-( ←
15:57:53 <sandro> (frown because it's hard work.)
Sandro Hawke: (frown because it's hard work.) ←
15:58:01 <cygri> pfps++
Richard Cyganiak: pfps++ ←
15:58:15 <davidwood> That's why we need to move toward test cases
David Wood: That's why we need to move toward test cases ←
15:58:18 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:58:25 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:59:16 <yvesr> cygri: how to map terminology to use-cases? (e.g. subgraphs)
Richard Cyganiak: how to map terminology to use-cases? (e.g. subgraphs) ←
15:59:33 <yvesr> cygri: ... in that document ivan wrote about graphs
Richard Cyganiak: ... in that document ivan wrote about graphs ←
15:59:50 <yvesr> ivan: that document talked about graph literals, where you hit the issue of sub-graphs etc.
Ivan Herman: that document talked about graph literals, where you hit the issue of sub-graphs etc. ←
15:59:59 <yvesr> ivan: those propoerties were mainly coming from that
Ivan Herman: those propoerties were mainly coming from that ←
16:00:16 <yvesr> ivan: if we don't have graph literals at all, the problem becomes very different
Ivan Herman: if we don't have graph literals at all, the problem becomes very different ←
16:00:22 <pchampin> q+
16:00:27 <Souri> Why don't we just present graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement? How people use graphs is their business.
Souripriya Das: Why don't we just present graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement? How people use graphs is their business. ←
16:01:01 <yvesr> pchampin: graph literals may be very important
Pierre-Antoine Champin: graph literals may be very important ←
16:01:12 <yvesr> ivan: i didn't say they weren't
Ivan Herman: i didn't say they weren't ←
16:01:26 <sandro> ivan: if we have graph literals then those additional properties are important
Ivan Herman: if we have graph literals then those additional properties are important [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:01:57 <sandro> pchampin: If we don't give special semantics to graph IRIs, then we'll need more ways to talk about graphs.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: If we don't give special semantics to graph IRIs, then we'll need more ways to talk about graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:02:17 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
16:02:40 <yvesr> pchampin: if we refuse to give special semantics to graph IRIs, my intuition is that it would become more important - we need to know how to treat a graph IRI
Pierre-Antoine Champin: if we refuse to give special semantics to graph IRIs, my intuition is that it would become more important - we need to know how to treat a graph IRI ←
16:03:17 <pchampin> pchampin: ... that we can express in RDF what is the relation btw a graph and its IRI in a give dataset
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ... that we can express in RDF what is the relation btw a graph and its IRI in a give dataset [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
16:03:24 <pfps> what kind of special semantics?
Peter Patel-Schneider: what kind of special semantics? ←
16:03:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:03:48 <yvesr> davidwood: strawman proposal about RDF datasets
David Wood: strawman proposal about RDF datasets ←
16:03:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:03:50 <davidwood> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph
David Wood: Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph ←
16:04:00 <pchampin> @pfps: that the graph IRI actually denotes the g-snap, for example
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @pfps: that the graph IRI actually denotes the g-snap, for example ←
16:04:20 <yvesr> sandro: i thought we were going through the issues list?
Sandro Hawke: i thought we were going through the issues list? ←
16:04:50 <yvesr> davidwood: this specific issue is abstract syntax to talk about multiple graphs
David Wood: this specific issue is abstract syntax to talk about multiple graphs ←
16:04:55 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:05:24 <yvesr> davidwood: i will go through the issues list, preparing for the F2F
David Wood: i will go through the issues list, preparing for the F2F ←
16:06:19 <yvesr> cygri: the strawman proposal is more or less a copy of the SPARQL 1.1 spec, expect it avoids saying that the graph name is an identifier for the graph
Richard Cyganiak: the strawman proposal is more or less a copy of the SPARQL 1.1 spec, expect it avoids saying that the graph name is an identifier for the graph ←
16:06:35 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
16:06:35 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as Bert, NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P2 as Bert, NickH ←
16:06:37 <Zakim> +??P54
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P54 ←
16:06:43 <NickH> zakim, ??P54 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P54 is me ←
16:06:43 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
16:06:49 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
16:06:49 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
16:06:55 <ww> [I have to drop off the call, apologies]
William Waites: [I have to drop off the call, apologies] ←
16:07:03 <Zakim> -ww
Zakim IRC Bot: -ww ←
16:07:29 <yvesr> cygri: it motivates the need for syntaxes, to write those different graphs
Richard Cyganiak: it motivates the need for syntaxes, to write those different graphs ←
16:07:42 <yvesr> cygri: it's important to have a strawman there
Richard Cyganiak: it's important to have a strawman there ←
16:08:03 <pfps> Looks benign to me, and useful to pull into RDF Concepts.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Looks benign to me, and useful to pull into RDF Concepts. ←
16:08:31 <Andy> and RDF-WG is doing syntax for something like this.
Andy Seaborne: and RDF-WG is doing syntax for something like this. ←
16:08:40 <yvesr> davidwood: does it look benign to everyone?
David Wood: does it look benign to everyone? ←
16:09:00 <yvesr> sandro: i don't understand why the default graph doesn't have a name
Sandro Hawke: i don't understand why the default graph doesn't have a name ←
16:09:12 <yvesr> davidwood: should it not have necessarily a name>
David Wood: should it not have necessarily a name? ←
16:09:17 <yvesr> s/>/?
16:09:27 <pfps> the sentence *could* just be removed.
Peter Patel-Schneider: the sentence *could* just be removed. ←
16:09:37 <yvesr> pfps: thereis nothing really wrong with that, the sentence could be removed
Peter Patel-Schneider: thereis nothing really wrong with that, the sentence could be removed ←
16:09:45 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:09:45 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:10:07 <yvesr> pfps: that sentence could be somewhere else?
Peter Patel-Schneider: that sentence could be somewhere else? ←
16:10:18 <pchampin> proposal: the default graph has no name, but could be identical to a named graph
PROPOSED: the default graph has no name, but could be identical to a named graph ←
16:10:29 <yvesr> MacTed: if you use a default graph, it is not named
Ted Thibodeau: if you use a default graph, it is not named ←
16:10:40 <Andy> "There is no name for the default graph role."
Andy Seaborne: "There is no name for the default graph role." ←
16:10:41 <yvesr> MacTed: if it is, then you use a named graph
Ted Thibodeau: if it is, then you use a named graph ←
16:10:45 <pfps> the sentence about the default graph not having a name could just be removed, without affecting the meaning of the section
Peter Patel-Schneider: the sentence about the default graph not having a name could just be removed, without affecting the meaning of the section ←
16:10:52 <pchampin> @sandro: I think we mean g-snaps here
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @sandro: I think we mean g-snaps here ←
16:10:58 <pfps> "There is no name for the default graph."
Peter Patel-Schneider: "There is no name for the default graph." ←
16:11:08 <yvesr> sandro: a dataset is entirely g-snap
Sandro Hawke: a dataset is entirely g-snap ←
16:11:33 <Souri> q-
Souripriya Das: q- ←
16:11:39 <Andy> sandro - That is true in SPARQL - its immutable (a graph store is mutable)
Andy Seaborne: sandro - That is true in SPARQL - its immutable (a graph store is mutable) ←
16:11:46 <sandro> +1 to removing "The default graph does not have a name."
Sandro Hawke: +1 to removing "The default graph does not have a name." ←
16:11:53 <yvesr> cygri: it might be a good idea to remove the sentence if it brings confusion - it is redundant
Richard Cyganiak: it might be a good idea to remove the sentence if it brings confusion - it is redundant ←
16:12:13 <yvesr> cygri: +1 to sandro, datasets are only composed of g-snaps
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to sandro, datasets are only composed of g-snaps ←
16:12:30 <yvesr> cygri: what we have here is essentially a 'dataset snap'
Richard Cyganiak: what we have here is essentially a 'dataset snap' ←
16:12:52 <gavinc> -0.5 to removing "The default graph does not have a name"
Gavin Carothers: -0.5 to removing "The default graph does not have a name" ←
16:12:54 <yvesr> cygri: it is just a snapshot
Richard Cyganiak: it is just a snapshot ←
16:13:42 <gavinc> EXACTLY one.
Gavin Carothers: EXACTLY one. ←
16:13:55 <pfps> around here it was snapping trees - courtesy of tropical storm Irene :-)
Peter Patel-Schneider: around here it was snapping trees - courtesy of tropical storm Irene :-) ←
16:14:54 <yvesr> sandro: if you think of that in terms of syntax, it makes it very clear that th edefalut graph doesn't have a name
Sandro Hawke: if you think of that in terms of syntax, it makes it very clear that th edefalut graph doesn't have a name ←
16:15:20 <yvesr> sandro: why do you need to do that to name the triples that are already in the default graph?
Sandro Hawke: why do you need to do that to name the triples that are already in the default graph? ←
16:15:30 <gavinc> TriG does NOT have triples without {}
Gavin Carothers: TriG does NOT have triples without {} ←
16:15:37 <sandro> david: Why do you have the move the triples into curly braces to give them a name?
David Wood: Why do you have the move the triples into curly braces to give them a name? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:15:41 <yvesr> MacTed: either they exist in a named graph, either they don't
Ted Thibodeau: either they exist in a named graph, either they don't ←
16:15:57 <gavinc> the {}s may not have a graph_name as it's optional
Gavin Carothers: the {}s may not have a graph_name as it's optional ←
16:15:59 <sandro> sorry, Gavin, call it DTriG or something.
Sandro Hawke: sorry, Gavin, call it DTriG or something. ←
16:16:32 <gavinc> sandro, np. But people have claimed that TriG is better for not having anything outside of {}s ;)
Gavin Carothers: sandro, np. But people have claimed that TriG is better for not having anything outside of {}s ;) ←
16:17:02 <yvesr> MacTed: default graph is a g-box, it can't be a g-snap
Ted Thibodeau: default graph is a g-box, it can't be a g-snap ←
16:17:27 <Andy> The default graph is a set - it can not change. It is a g-snap. a dataset is a "set"
Andy Seaborne: The default graph is a set - it can not change. It is a g-snap. a dataset is a "set" ←
16:17:30 <sandro> (right, I think Ted is wrong about dataset/gbox)
Sandro Hawke: (right, I think Ted is wrong about dataset/gbox) ←
16:17:43 <yvesr> Andy, +1
Andy, +1 ←
16:18:00 <yvesr> sandro: the default graph is not a g-box
Sandro Hawke: the default graph is not a g-box ←
16:18:14 <yvesr> sandro: in practice, you can treat it as mutable, but in theory it is immutable
Sandro Hawke: in practice, you can treat it as mutable, but in theory it is immutable ←
16:18:37 <LeeF> I don't agree with sandro on everything, but definitely agree with him on this :)
Lee Feigenbaum: I don't agree with sandro on everything, but definitely agree with him on this :) ←
16:18:47 <gavinc> Yeah
Gavin Carothers: Yeah ←
16:18:55 <cygri> “RDF graph” as per RDF Concepts = g-snap
Richard Cyganiak: “RDF graph” as per RDF Concepts = g-snap ←
16:19:06 <yvesr> davidwood: in rdf concepts, every time we say the word graph, we mean g-snap
David Wood: in rdf concepts, every time we say the word graph, we mean g-snap ←
16:19:10 <yvesr> cygri: agreed
Richard Cyganiak: agreed ←
16:19:21 <yvesr> cygri: defined as a set of triples, in the mathematical sense
Richard Cyganiak: defined as a set of triples, in the mathematical sense ←
16:19:32 <yvesr> cygri: when you add a triple, you get a different graph
Richard Cyganiak: when you add a triple, you get a different graph ←
16:19:53 <yvesr> davidwood: if you change a graph in a dataset, then you change the dataset
David Wood: if you change a graph in a dataset, then you change the dataset ←
16:20:28 <gavinc> Why not Graph Store?
Gavin Carothers: Why not Graph Store? ←
16:20:35 <yvesr> sandro: maybe we could consider a container of immutable graphs?
Sandro Hawke: maybe we could consider a container of immutable graphs? ←
16:20:51 <Andy> PUT http://example/gbox
Andy Seaborne: PUT http://example/gbox ←
16:21:13 <yvesr> sandro: a 'graph dispenser'
Sandro Hawke: a 'graph dispenser' ←
16:21:16 <Souri> I am happy :-) with just presenting graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement. I think how people use graphs is their business.
Souripriya Das: I am happy :-) with just presenting graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement. I think how people use graphs is their business. ←
16:21:26 <LeeF> As gavinc says, SPARQL 1.1 calls the container a "graph store"
Lee Feigenbaum: As gavinc says, SPARQL 1.1 calls the container a "graph store" ←
16:21:35 <LeeF> (SPARQL 1.1 Update, specifically)
Lee Feigenbaum: (SPARQL 1.1 Update, specifically) ←
16:21:37 <Andy> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:21:51 <gavinc> as does SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol
Gavin Carothers: as does SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol ←
16:21:56 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:21:57 <LeeF> aye
Lee Feigenbaum: aye ←
16:22:03 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
16:22:04 <sandro> @souri have you looked at the Graphs use cases? Do you know how to address them (without this stuff)?
Sandro Hawke: @souri have you looked at the Graphs use cases? Do you know how to address them (without this stuff)? ←
16:22:14 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:22:15 <yvesr> bye!
bye! ←
16:22:16 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:22:17 <Zakim> -cygri_
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri_ ←
16:22:17 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
16:22:18 <mbrunati> bye
Matteo Brunati: bye ←
16:22:20 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:22:20 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:22:20 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer ←
16:22:22 <yvesr> RRSAgent, generate minutes
RRSAgent, generate minutes ←
16:22:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-minutes.html yvesr
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-minutes.html yvesr ←
16:22:23 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
16:22:25 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:22:27 <Zakim> -David_Wood
Zakim IRC Bot: -David_Wood ←
16:22:29 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:22:30 <Zakim> -iand
Zakim IRC Bot: -iand ←
16:22:31 <MacTed> it might be worthwhile to do a global search-and-replace, s/graph/g-snap/ ... and then read
Ted Thibodeau: it might be worthwhile to do a global search-and-replace, s/graph/g-snap/ ... and then read ←
16:22:33 <Zakim> -AndyS1
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1 ←
16:22:35 <Zakim> -mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat ←
16:22:37 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
16:22:38 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:24:21 <Zakim> -SteveH
(No events recorded for 61 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
17:29:29 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
17:29:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
17:29:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa, yvesr, gavinc, Arnaud, cygri_, ww, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus, +1.443.212.aabb, SteveH, AlexHall, +33.4.77.42.aacc, AZ,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa, yvesr, gavinc, Arnaud, cygri_, ww, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus, +1.443.212.aabb, SteveH, AlexHall, +33.4.77.42.aacc, AZ, ←
17:29:43 <Zakim> ... mischat, MacTed, +1.507.261.aadd, Souri, Scott_Bauer, iand, Sandro, NickH, pchampin, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: ... mischat, MacTed, +1.507.261.aadd, Souri, Scott_Bauer, iand, Sandro, NickH, pchampin, LeeF ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2011-10-19 15:10:17 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None