RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 14 September 2011

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Mischa Tuffield, Nicholas Humfrey, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, William Waites, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Zhe Wu
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon link
Topics
14:56:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/14-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/14-rdf-wg-irc

14:56:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:56:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:56:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:57:00 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:57:00 <trackbot> Date: 14 September 2011
14:58:18 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

14:58:25 <Zakim> + +1.650.917.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.917.aaaa

14:58:36 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me

Gavin Carothers: zakim, aaaa is me

14:58:36 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it

14:58:54 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber

14:59:28 <Zakim> +Tony

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony

14:59:40 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me

14:59:41 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it

15:00:23 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

15:00:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

15:00:58 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

15:01:01 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

15:01:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P36 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P36 is me

15:01:07 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:01:10 <NickH> Zakim, ??P27 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P27 is me

15:01:10 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

15:01:11 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

15:01:18 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

15:01:35 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

15:01:35 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:01:42 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

15:02:06 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

15:02:10 <ww> Zakim, aabb is me

William Waites: Zakim, aabb is me

15:02:11 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38

15:02:17 <ww> nono

William Waites: nono

15:02:22 <Zakim> +ww; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it

15:02:24 <ww> Zakim, ??P38 is me

William Waites: Zakim, ??P38 is me

15:02:29 <NickH> zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me

15:02:36 <Zakim> +ww; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it

15:02:42 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

15:02:48 <ww> Zakim, mute me

William Waites: Zakim, mute me

15:02:56 <Zakim> ww should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted

15:03:19 <AlexHall> zakim, who is on the phone?

Alex Hall: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), ww.a

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), ww.a

15:03:41 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:03:49 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:03:49 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:03:51 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:03:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:04:02 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:04:02 <AlexHall> one of the ww's is me, how do i fix it?

Alex Hall: one of the ww's is me, how do i fix it?

15:04:56 <zwu2> Scribe: zwu2

(Scribe set to Zhe Wu)

15:05:23 <ww> AlexHall: sorry about that

Alex Hall: sorry about that [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ]

15:05:33 <ww> Zakim, aabb is AlexHall

William Waites: Zakim, aabb is AlexHall

15:05:41 <Zakim> sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'

15:05:49 <ww> zakim, ww.a is AlexHall

William Waites: zakim, ww.a is AlexHall

15:05:49 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:05:57 <ww> zakim, who is on the call?

William Waites: zakim, who is on the call?

15:05:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Sandro

15:06:30 <zwu2> topic: introductions

1. introductions

15:06:32 <AlexHall> thanks, ww

Alex Hall: thanks, ww

15:06:40 <zwu2> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon:

PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon:

15:07:01 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-office

15:07:01 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made

15:07:02 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:07:14 <zwu2> RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon

RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon

15:07:19 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

15:07:19 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

15:07:32 <zwu2> topic: action reviews

2. action reviews

15:07:59 <zwu2> Guus: David put up F2F agenda

Guus Schreiber: David put up F2F agenda

15:08:29 <zwu2> ... draft agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda

... draft agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda

15:08:49 <zwu2> ... open actions

... open actions

15:09:27 <zwu2> Action-67?

ACTION-67?

15:09:27 <trackbot> ACTION-67 -- Patrick Hayes to review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store update protocol -- due 2011-07-06 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-67 -- Patrick Hayes to review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store update protocol -- due 2011-07-06 -- OPEN

15:09:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/67

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/67

15:09:45 <zwu2> action Guus: remind Pat on action-67

action Guus: remind Pat on ACTION-67

15:09:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Remind Pat on action-67 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-87 - Remind Pat on ACTION-67 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].

15:09:52 <zwu2> action-73?

ACTION-73?

15:09:52 <trackbot> ACTION-73 -- Fabien Gandon to implement http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-03#resolution_2 -- due 2012-01-05 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-73 -- Fabien Gandon to implement http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-03#resolution_2 -- due 2012-01-05 -- OPEN

15:09:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/73

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/73

15:09:57 <zwu2> Guus: leave it open

Guus Schreiber: leave it open

15:10:02 <zwu2> action-77?

ACTION-77?

15:10:02 <trackbot> ACTION-77 -- Richard Cyganiak to add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts -- due 2011-08-24 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-77 -- Richard Cyganiak to add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts -- due 2011-08-24 -- OPEN

15:10:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/77

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/77

15:10:10 <zwu2> ... is Richard in?

... is Richard in?

15:10:22 <ivan> I think he is out these days

Ivan Herman: I think he is out these days

15:10:30 <zwu2> action-79?

ACTION-79?

15:10:30 <trackbot> ACTION-79 -- Guus Schreiber to discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F -- due 2011-09-29 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-79 -- Guus Schreiber to discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F -- due 2011-09-29 -- OPEN

15:10:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/79

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/79

15:10:37 <zwu2> ... needs to be continued, for later

... needs to be continued, for later

15:10:42 <zwu2> Action-82?

ACTION-82?

15:10:42 <trackbot> ACTION-82 -- Sandro Hawke to draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-82 -- Sandro Hawke to draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN

15:10:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/82

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/82

15:10:48 <zwu2> ... Sandro, did you make progress

... Sandro, did you make progress

15:10:52 <zwu2> sandro: no

Sandro Hawke: no

15:11:01 <zwu2> action-86?

ACTION-86?

15:11:01 <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN

15:11:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86

15:11:25 <Zakim> +??P58

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P58

15:11:59 <zwu2> proposed to close action-86

proposed to close ACTION-86

15:12:37 <zwu2> Topic: F2F planning

3. F2F planning

15:12:51 <zwu2> Guus: wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2

Guus Schreiber: wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2

15:12:59 <zwu2> ... 11 people at BBC,

... 11 people at BBC,

15:13:13 <zwu2> ... peter, will you attend?

... peter, will you attend?

15:13:25 <zwu2> peter: may not know until Tues morning

Peter Patel-Schneider: may not know until Tues morning

15:13:42 <Zakim> + +33.4.77.42.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.77.42.aacc

15:14:00 <AZ> zakim, +33.4.77.42.aacc is me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +33.4.77.42.aacc is me

15:14:10 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:14:38 <zwu2> Guus: draft agenda for two days http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda

Guus Schreiber: draft agenda for two days http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda

15:14:59 <zwu2> ... we have more time now due to timezone difference

... we have more time now due to timezone difference

15:15:14 <zwu2> ... any comments?

... any comments?

15:16:25 <zwu2> ... By the time of Boston f2f,

... By the time of Boston f2f,

15:16:38 <zwu2> ... we should have some new material

... we should have some new material

15:16:59 <zwu2> ... for RDF Primer,

... for RDF Primer,

15:17:07 <zwu2> ... unlikely to be complete.

... unlikely to be complete.

15:17:18 <ivan> zakim, unmute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me

15:17:18 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted

15:17:56 <zwu2> ivan: one of the two hotels does not have any more room

Ivan Herman: one of the two hotels does not have any more room

15:18:01 <NickH> I will pass on the message to yvesr

Nicholas Humfrey: I will pass on the message to yvesr

15:18:54 <zwu2> ... can you send out that hotel info?

... can you send out that hotel info?

15:19:32 <mischat> the pound is weak at the moment, people should be "ok"

Mischa Tuffield: the pound is weak at the moment, people should be "ok"

15:19:41 <zwu2> action Guus: provide information on london hotel

action Guus: provide information on london hotel

15:19:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Provide information on london hotel [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-88 - Provide information on london hotel [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].

15:20:18 <zwu2> Topic: liaison with Provenance WG

4. liaison with Provenance WG

15:20:34 <zwu2> Guus: we will use RDF WG channel

Guus Schreiber: we will use RDF WG channel

15:20:52 <zwu2> ... zakim code is RDFG

... zakim code is RDFG

15:21:13 <zwu2> ... attendance is in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15

... attendance is in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15

15:21:29 <zwu2> ... not sure who will attend from Provenance WG

... not sure who will attend from Provenance WG

15:21:40 <zwu2> ... two main objectives

... two main objectives

15:21:47 <zwu2> ... 1. requirement

... 1. requirement

15:22:25 <zwu2> ... work out use cases

... work out use cases

15:22:56 <zwu2> ... have joint actions to work on the examples (concrete)

... have joint actions to work on the examples (concrete)

15:23:40 <AndyS> +1 to concrete examples

Andy Seaborne: +1 to concrete examples

15:23:45 <mischat> i thought that the provenance group where going to give us concrete examples?

Mischa Tuffield: i thought that the provenance group where going to give us concrete examples?

15:23:52 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

15:23:52 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

15:24:06 <zwu2> topic: RDF Dataset proposal

5. RDF Dataset proposal

15:24:24 <zwu2> Guus: richard is essential to this discussion, He is not here

Guus Schreiber: richard is essential to this discussion, He is not here

15:24:27 <Zakim> +??P59

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P59

15:24:35 <pchampin> zakim, ??P59 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P59 is me

15:24:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

15:25:02 <zwu2> ... not sure if we can discuss this item

... not sure if we can discuss this item

15:25:25 <ivan> zakim, unmute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me

15:25:25 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted

15:25:41 <zwu2> ivan: we should not go into discussion

Ivan Herman: we should not go into discussion

15:26:19 <zwu2> sandro: the doc does not look much different to me

Sandro Hawke: the doc does not look much different to me

15:27:11 <zwu2> sandro: it is not a great proposal

Sandro Hawke: it is not a sufficient proposal

15:27:21 <zwu2> ... his design is minimal

... his design is minimal

15:27:25 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

15:27:49 <sandro> s/great/sufficient/
15:28:34 <zwu2> sandro: applications need their vocab to do something useful

Sandro Hawke: applications need their vocab to do something useful

15:28:59 <zwu2> ... we need to proceed with more use cases

... we need to proceed with more use cases

15:29:14 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:29:18 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

15:29:21 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

15:29:43 <zwu2> Topic: language tagged literals

6. language tagged literals

15:30:13 <zwu2> Guus: only two proposals look promising

Guus Schreiber: only two proposals look promising

15:30:33 <zwu2> ... 1 or 2d

... 1 or 2d

15:31:05 <zwu2> ... either we do nothing, or we go with 2d

... either we do nothing, or we go with 2d

15:31:22 <zwu2> ... we don't have to make a final decision today

... we don't have to make a final decision today

15:31:32 <zwu2> ... for resolution, we could go for 2d

... for resolution, we could go for 2d

15:31:52 <zwu2> ... if we get sufficient push back, then we choose 1 and do nothing

... if we get sufficient push back, then we choose 1 and do nothing

15:32:00 <zwu2> sandro: I agree that approach makes sense

Sandro Hawke: I agree that approach makes sense

15:32:21 <zwu2> ... doing 2d at provisional at risk

... doing 2d at provisional at risk

15:32:26 <ivan> +1 to what to sandro says

Ivan Herman: +1 to what to sandro says

15:32:35 <zwu2> ... let community decide if it is desired

... let community decide if it is desired

15:32:58 <zwu2> Guus: not sure much is going to change before F2F

Guus Schreiber: not sure much is going to change before F2F

15:33:24 <zwu2> ... Pat said he prefers 4

... Pat said he prefers 4

15:34:06 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results results of the poll

Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results results of the poll

15:34:08 <zwu2> ... I will write an email to the group

... I will write an email to the group

15:34:30 <ivan> For the records, 2d means: "The abstract syntax has a lexical form and language tag (like in RDF 2004). The value is assigned directly (like in RDF 2004), bypassing the datatype. The datatype has an empty lexical space and empty L2V mapping."

Ivan Herman: For the records, 2d means: "The abstract syntax has a lexical form and language tag (like in RDF 2004). The value is assigned directly (like in RDF 2004), bypassing the datatype. The datatype has an empty lexical space and empty L2V mapping."

15:35:14 <sandro> Or, more simply -- it's the same as we have now, except instead of an EMPTY datatype for tagged strings, there's a particular value for those strings.

Sandro Hawke: Or, more simply -- it's the same as we have now, except instead of an EMPTY datatype for tagged strings, there's a particular value for those strings.

15:35:24 <zwu2> action Guus: email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals

action Guus: email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals

15:35:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-89 - Email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].

15:36:18 <zwu2> Guus: aob?

Guus Schreiber: aob?

15:37:32 <zwu2> Topic: telecon adjourned

7. telecon adjourned

15:37:37 <ericP> sandro: two axes:

Sandro Hawke: two axes: [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

15:37:44 <ericP> ... current (lex, (datatype | langtag)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... current (lex, (datatype | langtag)

15:37:49 <ericP> )

Eric Prud'hommeaux: )

15:38:04 <sandro> Choice One:      <lexrep, dt, opt language tag>    or just <lexrep, dt>

Sandro Hawke: Choice One: <lexrep, dt, opt language tag> or just <lexrep, dt>

15:38:32 <ericP> isn't the current: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, opt language tag> ?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: isn't the current: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, opt language tag> ?

15:39:13 <sandro> Choice Two:   smoosh the lang tag into Lexrep (option 4) or into datatype URI (option 3a).

Sandro Hawke: Choice Two: smoosh the lang tag into Lexrep (option 4) or into datatype URI (option 3a).

15:39:31 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

15:39:49 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

15:40:09 <gavinc> current <lexrep> | <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag>

Gavin Carothers: current <lexrep> | <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag>

15:40:14 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

15:40:38 <gavinc> current, post xsd:string normalization: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag>

Gavin Carothers: current, post xsd:string normalization: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag>

15:42:22 <swh> agreed, option 4 is v. bad

Steve Harris: agreed, option 4 is v. bad

15:42:25 <ericP> +1 to -1 of smushing into the string

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to -1 of smushing into the string

15:42:32 <gavinc> Option 4 is bad

Gavin Carothers: Option 4 is bad

15:42:48 <AlexHall> +1 as long as we're talking about the RDF abstract syntax

Alex Hall: +1 as long as we're talking about the RDF abstract syntax

15:43:15 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

15:43:19 <AndyS> opt 4 is very very bad AKA it will be ignored - APIs will hide it completely so does not exist

Andy Seaborne: opt 4 is very very bad AKA it will be ignored - APIs will hide it completely so does not exist

15:43:22 <gavinc> language tags REQUIRE micro parsing already btw

Gavin Carothers: language tags REQUIRE micro parsing already btw

15:43:23 <AndyS> several of us were originally interested but DT-lang but it had problems.

Andy Seaborne: several of us were originally interested but DT-lang but it had problems.

15:43:37 <sandro> ivan: my problem with 3 is the vast number of language tag URIs that we'd have.   that might cause problems.

Ivan Herman: my problem with 3 is the vast number of language tag URIs that we'd have. that might cause problems. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:44:03 <AndyS> gavinc - not really - can treat (unchecked) as strings.

Andy Seaborne: gavinc - not really - can treat (unchecked) as strings.

15:44:27 <gavinc> that's true, okay... langMatches() requires micro parsing

Gavin Carothers: that's true, okay... langMatches() requires micro parsing

15:44:28 <AndyS> true if checking -- but can "assume" valid

Andy Seaborne: true if checking -- but can "assume" valid

15:44:40 <sandro> ivan: owl2 semantics, generating things like differentFrom for each datatype

Ivan Herman: owl2 semantics, generating things like differentFrom for each datatype [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:44:48 <AndyS> Yes, langMatches is ... interesting.

Andy Seaborne: Yes, langMatches is ... interesting.

15:45:59 <gavinc> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647

Gavin Carothers: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647

15:46:36 <sandro> gavin; I don't object to 3a due to microparsing -- since you need to "microparse" language tags anyone.

Sandro Hawke: gavin; I don't object to 3a due to microparsing -- since you need to "microparse" language tags anyone.

15:47:08 <pchampin> +1 to Ivan: 3a makes no statements about relations between the language types

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to Ivan: 3a makes no statements about relations between the language types

15:47:39 <sandro> AndyS: the mental framework from datatypes does not apply to the theory of lanuage tags.

Andy Seaborne: the mental framework from datatypes does not apply to the theory of lanuage tags. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:47:55 <pchampin> q+ to ask a question about 3a and datatypes

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask a question about 3a and datatypes

15:48:07 <pchampin> ack me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack me

15:48:09 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a question about 3a and datatypes

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to ask a question about 3a and datatypes

15:48:09 <AndyS> Also JJC email that relationship of DT != lang relationships

Andy Seaborne: Also JJC email that relationship of DT != lang relationships

15:48:13 <sandro> (ah, that makes sense, Andy.)

Sandro Hawke: (ah, that makes sense, Andy.)

15:48:24 <ericP> we need to A/B test by teaching folks the different models and seeing which they "get" in the sense of having intelligent intuitions

Eric Prud'hommeaux: we need to A/B test by teaching folks the different models and seeing which they "get" in the sense of having intelligent intuitions

15:48:43 <Guus> I prefer 2d because it apprears to be the smallest change that does the trick, but maybe someone can convince me this is wrong

Guus Schreiber: I prefer 2d because it apprears to be the smallest change that does the trick, but maybe someone can convince me this is wrong

15:49:11 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

15:49:24 <pchampin> zakim, mute me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute me

15:49:24 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should now be muted

15:49:28 <gavinc> Turtle funkyness, "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:EN == "Bob"^^lang:en

Gavin Carothers: Turtle funkyness, "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:EN == "Bob"^^lang:en

15:49:52 <pchampin> my question is: are those datatypes (in option 3a) different in any way form other datatypes?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: my question is: are those datatypes (in option 3a) different in any way form other datatypes?

15:50:04 <pchampin> I think not, but some ppl seem to think so

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I think not, but some ppl seem to think so

15:50:16 <gavinc> datatype("Bob"@en) doesn't throw an error

Gavin Carothers: datatype("Bob"@en) doesn't throw an error

15:50:39 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011May/0425.html

Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011May/0425.html

15:50:55 <ericP> gus, we lost yhou

Eric Prud'hommeaux: guus, we lost yhou

15:51:05 <AndyS> JJC's message from our archives

Andy Seaborne: JJC's message from our archives

15:51:06 <ericP> s/gus/guus/
15:51:07 <pchampin> ok thx

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok thx

15:51:14 <pchampin> I'll look at that in more detail

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I'll look at that in more detail

15:51:20 <gavinc> -.-

Gavin Carothers: -.-

15:51:38 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

15:51:48 <ericP> ^^lang:en-fr

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ^^lang:en-fr

15:52:00 <Guus> sorry, seem to have problems

Guus Schreiber: sorry, seem to have problems

15:52:09 <sandro>  "Bob"^^lang:en      "Bob"@en

Sandro Hawke: "Bob"^^lang:en "Bob"@en

15:52:16 <pchampin> @gavin: we already have "bob"@en == "bob"@EN

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @gavin: we already have "bob"@en == "bob"@EN

15:52:28 <pchampin> and we don't have to allow lang:EN... could normalize to lang:en

Pierre-Antoine Champin: and we don't have to allow lang:EN... could normalize to lang:en

15:52:44 <gavinc> Yes! but .. "1"^^xsd:int != "1"^^xsd:INT

Gavin Carothers: Yes! but .. "1"^^xsd:int != "1"^^xsd:INT

15:52:47 <AndyS> + a prefix declaration.

Andy Seaborne: + a prefix declaration.

15:52:53 <ericP> ok, you each get 3billion people...

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ok, you each get 3billion people...

15:53:00 <pchampin> :-=

Pierre-Antoine Champin: :-=

15:53:04 <pchampin> :-)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: :-)

15:53:51 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:53:54 <AndyS> I wasn't aware any proposal was deprecating @

Andy Seaborne: I wasn't aware any proposal was deprecating @

15:54:05 <AndyS> what happens in (shudder) RDF/XML?

Andy Seaborne: what happens in (shudder) RDF/XML?

15:54:14 <pchampin> @AndyS no, this was not the intent of 3a akaic

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @AndyS no, this was not the intent of 3a akaic

15:54:58 <ericP> trix?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: trix?

15:55:13 <Guus> [my phone apprears to be broken, sorry]

Guus Schreiber: [my phone apprears to be broken, sorry]

15:55:25 <AndyS> (I have never seen TriX in use)

Andy Seaborne: (I have never seen TriX in use)

15:55:37 <pchampin> zakim, unmute me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, unmute me

15:55:37 <Zakim> pchampin should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should no longer be muted

15:55:47 <sandro> okay, you're close to convincing me to give up Option 3.....

Sandro Hawke: okay, you're close to convincing me to give up Option 3.....

15:56:11 <pchampin> we can normalize @EN to lang:en

Pierre-Antoine Champin: we can normalize @EN to lang:en

15:56:23 <ericP> the parser could do the smackdown on lang:eN-Fr

Eric Prud'hommeaux: the parser could do the smackdown on lang:eN-Fr

15:56:30 <pchampin> zakim, mute me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute me

15:56:30 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should now be muted

15:56:43 <gavinc>  "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"^^lang:en != "Bob"^^lang:EN

Gavin Carothers: "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"^^lang:en != "Bob"^^lang:EN

15:56:49 <pchampin> yes

Pierre-Antoine Champin: yes

15:56:54 <sandro> right.

Sandro Hawke: right.

15:56:55 <gavinc>  "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"@EN != "Bob"^^lang:EN

Gavin Carothers: "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"@EN != "Bob"^^lang:EN

15:59:40 <sandro> so maybe we have make the lang-tag -> URI mapping fold to lower case.

Sandro Hawke: so maybe we have make the lang-tag -> URI mapping fold to lower case.

15:59:56 <sandro> ivan: i think technically that would be okay.

Ivan Herman: i think technically that would be okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:59:59 <AlexHall> IRI equivalence: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-5.1

Alex Hall: IRI equivalence: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-5.1

16:00:07 <sandro> AndyS: Didn't we ask the OWL people?

Andy Seaborne: Didn't we ask the OWL people? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:00:15 <AlexHall> "Applications using IRIs as identity tokens with no relationship to a  protocol MUST use the Simple String Comparison"

Alex Hall: "Applications using IRIs as identity tokens with no relationship to a protocol MUST use the Simple String Comparison"

16:00:18 <sandro> ivan: Ian Horrocks said it was okay, but maybe that was just in theory.

Ivan Herman: Ian Horrocks said it was okay, but maybe that was just in theory. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:01:56 <sandro> gavin: xpath defines language tags as case insentivie, too.

Gavin Carothers: xpath defines language tags as case insentivie, too. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:02:22 <sandro> eric: So everyone says they are case insensitive, so normalizing would be okay.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: So everyone says they are case insensitive, so normalizing would be okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:03:06 <gavinc> Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase.

Gavin Carothers: Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase.

16:03:12 <sandro> gavin: rdf spec says "normalized to lowercase"

Gavin Carothers: rdf spec says "normalized to lowercase" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:03:59 <AndyS> ... lang:en owl:sameAs eric:HeLLo

Andy Seaborne: ... lang:en owl:sameAs eric:HeLLo

16:04:43 <sandro> the proposal here for handling case is: @en == @EN == lang:en   but NOT  lang:EN

Sandro Hawke: the proposal here for handling case is: @en == @EN == lang:en but NOT lang:EN

16:04:58 <ivan> zh-Hant

Ivan Herman: zh-Hant

16:05:07 <sandro> (not that anyone is arguing in favor of this.)

Sandro Hawke: (not that anyone is arguing in favor of this.)

16:06:26 <swh> I think the @ syntax has to case fold, otherwise it will be too strange

Steve Harris: I think the @ syntax has to case fold, otherwise it will be too strange

16:07:15 <sandro> for sparql term matching, swh?

Sandro Hawke: for sparql term matching, swh?

16:07:27 <swh> sandro, yes

Steve Harris: sandro, yes

16:07:50 <swh> I would ban "foo"^^lang:bar in turtle, though that's a little strange

Steve Harris: I would ban "foo"^^lang:bar in turtle, though that's a little strange

16:07:54 <pchampin> makes the abstract simpler simpler

Pierre-Antoine Champin: makes the abstract simpler simpler

16:08:05 <pchampin> and seems to make everything else more complex :)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: and seems to make everything else more complex :)

16:08:22 <AndyS> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5646.txt sec  4.5

Andy Seaborne: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5646.txt sec 4.5

16:08:29 <gavinc> datatype("bob"@en) does not do something errorish

Gavin Carothers: datatype("bob"@en) does not do something errorish

16:08:48 <pchampin> what does currently datatype("chat"@en) currently return?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: what does currently datatype("chat"@en) currently return?

16:09:00 <gavinc> nothing, it's an error

Gavin Carothers: nothing, it's an error

16:09:20 <pchampin> ok, so anyway, all options that aim to give a datatype to *every* literal will change SPARQL, right?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok, so anyway, all options that aim to give a datatype to *every* literal will change SPARQL, right?

16:09:34 <gavinc> Yep!

Gavin Carothers: Yep!

16:09:52 <pchampin> is there an option on the table that will change SPARQL less than the others?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: is there an option on the table that will change SPARQL less than the others?

16:10:02 <gavinc> Yep! Do nothing.

Gavin Carothers: Yep! Do nothing.

16:10:06 <pchampin> :)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: :)

16:10:41 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:11:50 <Guus> [i'm back]

Guus Schreiber: [i'm back]

16:12:01 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

16:12:02 <Zakim> +??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30

16:12:10 <AndyS> zakim, ??P30 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P30 is me

16:12:10 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:12:11 <sandro> eric: Gavin says the reason for 2d over 1 is so you can do datatype("chat"@en).

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Gavin says the reason for 2d over 1 is so you can do datatype("chat"@en). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:12:19 <AndyS> zakim, please do not cut me off

Andy Seaborne: zakim, please do not cut me off

16:12:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please do not cut me off', AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'please do not cut me off', AndyS

16:12:41 <sandro> gavin: Folks in existing queries should be using NOT LANG(...)

Gavin Carothers: Folks in existing queries should be using NOT LANG(...) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:05 <AndyS> pchampin - tech answer is SPARQL does not require lang tags ;  practically, impls care about STR() most.

Andy Seaborne: pchampin - tech answer is SPARQL does not require lang tags ; practically, impls care about STR() most.

16:13:10 <sandro> eric: there are current queries that will break with this change.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are current queries that will break with this change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:22 <ericP> FILTER (LANG(?a) != "en-fr")

Eric Prud'hommeaux: FILTER (LANG(?a) != "en-fr")

16:13:35 <sandro> gavinc: but those are funky queries, so it's okay.

Gavin Carothers: but those are funky queries, so it's okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:50 <AndyS> then LANG() then LANGMATCHES()

Andy Seaborne: then LANG() then LANGMATCHES()

16:13:58 <sandro> eric: yeah, hard to find an example

Eric Prud'hommeaux: yeah, hard to find an example [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:19 <sandro> andy: FILTER with DATATYPE then LANG_MATCHES

Andy Seaborne: FILTER with DATATYPE then LANG_MATCHES [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:59 <pchampin> no, that was already in SPARQL

Pierre-Antoine Champin: no, that was already in SPARQL

16:15:02 <sandro> gavinc: We already broke that by removing Plain Literals.

Gavin Carothers: We already broke that by removing Plain Literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:15:27 <pchampin> ok

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok

16:15:36 <pchampin> good point

Pierre-Antoine Champin: good point

16:15:36 <AlexHall> which was exactly our intent :-)

Alex Hall: which was exactly our intent :-)

16:15:42 <sandro> okay.   I'm convinced to support 2d.

Sandro Hawke: okay. I'm convinced to support 2d.

16:15:49 <Guus> sandro, you had a question for me which i did not hear and therefore did not answer

Guus Schreiber: sandro, you had a question for me which i did not hear and therefore did not answer

16:15:51 <pchampin> I move too

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I move too

16:16:26 <sandro> (in my heart I still love 3a, but ...    it does seem like there are a lot of complications....)

Sandro Hawke: (in my heart I still love 3a, but ... it does seem like there are a lot of complications....)

16:16:33 <ivan> bye everybody

Ivan Herman: bye everybody

16:16:38 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:17:04 <pchampin> for the record, I'm still convinced that 2d can be interpreted as 3b

Pierre-Antoine Champin: for the record, I'm still convinced that 2d can be interpreted as 3b

16:17:07 <ericP> FILTER( (LANG(?a) != 'cd' | true) (?a -> '1'@ab) (?a -> '2'@cd) (?a -> '3'^^xsd:int))

Eric Prud'hommeaux: FILTER( (LANG(?a) != 'cd' | true) (?a -> '1'@ab) (?a -> '2'@cd) (?a -> '3'^^xsd:int))

16:17:10 <ericP> => (?a -> '1'@ab)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: => (?a -> '1'@ab)

16:17:11 <pchampin> if that's any confort to Sandro ;)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: if that's any confort to Sandro ;)

16:17:24 <sandro> topic: turtle in html

8. turtle in html

16:17:29 <Zakim> -ww

Zakim IRC Bot: -ww

16:18:10 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus_Schreiber

16:19:16 <pchampin> nasty!!!

Pierre-Antoine Champin: nasty!!!

16:20:04 <sandro> <script type="text/javascript">

Sandro Hawke: <script type="text/javascript">

16:20:04 <sandro> <!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--

Sandro Hawke: <!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--

16:20:04 <sandro> ...

Sandro Hawke: ...

16:20:04 <sandro> /--><!]]>

Sandro Hawke: /--><!]]>

16:20:04 <sandro> </script>

Sandro Hawke: </script>

16:21:36 <davidwood> Sandro, what convinced you to support 2d?

David Wood: Sandro, what convinced you to support 2d?

16:23:16 <sandro> davidwood, Gavin and AndyS pointing out tricky corner cases that I didnt know how to solve well.

Sandro Hawke: davidwood, Gavin and AndyS pointing out tricky corner cases that I didnt know how to solve well.

16:23:36 <ericP> <script type="text/turtle">

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <script type="text/turtle">

16:23:41 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:24:04 <pchampin> got to go too, bye evrybody

Pierre-Antoine Champin: got to go too, bye evrybody

16:24:10 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

16:24:43 <gavinc>     pre.example script {

Gavin Carothers: pre.example script {

16:24:45 <gavinc>         display:block;

Gavin Carothers: display:block;

16:24:46 <ericP>     pre.example script {

Eric Prud'hommeaux: pre.example script {

16:24:46 <ericP>         display:block;

Eric Prud'hommeaux: display:block;

16:24:46 <ericP>     }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: }

16:24:46 <gavinc>     }

Gavin Carothers: }

16:25:12 <sandro> Ciao

Sandro Hawke: Ciao

16:25:15 <davidwood> sandro, thanks.  I'll read the minutes in detail.

David Wood: sandro, thanks. I'll read the minutes in detail.

16:25:36 <sandro> davidwood, it was after the meeting ended, so I was just taking notes, not really scribing.

Sandro Hawke: davidwood, it was after the meeting ended, so I was just taking notes, not really scribing.

16:26:08 <sandro> davidwood, we finished the meeting way early, then some of us stayed after to talk about language tags.

Sandro Hawke: davidwood, we finished the meeting way early, then some of us stayed after to talk about language tags.

16:26:20 <davidwood> ah

David Wood: ah

16:26:28 <davidwood> That's OK.  I have a chat log.

David Wood: That's OK. I have a chat log.

16:26:33 <Zakim> -??P58

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P58

16:26:46 <ericP> http://128.30.55.213/toy

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://128.30.55.213/toy

16:27:17 <davidwood> ericP: Do you what time you might want to talk this afternoon?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do you what time you might want to talk this afternoon? [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

16:27:29 <ericP> 10 mins from now?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 10 mins from now?

16:27:59 <davidwood> ok

David Wood: ok

16:28:05 <davidwood> Skype or phone?

David Wood: Skype or phone?

16:28:42 <ericP> phone's a little easier for me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: phone's a little easier for me

16:28:48 <davidwood> ok

David Wood: ok

16:29:00 <ericP> #?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: #?

16:29:02 <davidwood> You have my numbers in email

David Wood: You have my numbers in email

16:29:08 <ericP> cool

Eric Prud'hommeaux: cool

16:29:11 <davidwood> +1.540.898.6410

David Wood: +1.540.898.6410

16:39:32 <Zakim> -gavinc

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

16:39:33 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:39:35 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:39:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:39:37 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.917.aaaa, gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, NickH, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, ww, MacTed, Sandro, AlexHall, EricP, AZ,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.650.917.aaaa, gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, NickH, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, ww, MacTed, Sandro, AlexHall, EricP, AZ,

16:39:40 <Zakim> ... pchampin, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: ... pchampin, Souri



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This revision (#2) generated 2011-09-19 22:53:41 UTC by 'gcarothe3', comments: 'Make telecon adjourned a TOPIC'