Chatlog 2013-02-07

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15:45:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:45:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-irc
15:45:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:45:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:45:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:45:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
15:45:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:45:20 <trackbot> Date: 07 February 2013
15:50:41 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
15:50:57 <pgroth> trackbot, start telcon
15:50:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:51:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:51:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
15:51:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:51:02 <trackbot> Date: 07 February 2013
15:51:03 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:51:03 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
15:51:32 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06
15:51:38 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:52:01 <pgroth> Scribe: Tom De Nies
15:52:20 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
15:53:41 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:53:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:53:56 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:53:56 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:58:04 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov
15:59:20 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov
15:59:26 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
15:59:36 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:00:03 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:00:03 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:00:04 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:00:06 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV
16:00:18 <Zakim> +??P1
16:00:23 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P1 is me
16:00:23 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
16:00:25 <pgroth> tom are you to scribe?
16:00:25 <hook> hook has joined #prov
16:00:33 <pgroth> you ready to scribe?
16:00:34 <TomDN> yes, hold on, trying to dial in
16:00:36 <pgroth> ok
16:00:39 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
16:00:47 <Zakim> +TomDN
16:00:51 <TomDN> ok :)
16:00:56 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
16:00:56 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
16:01:02 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06
16:01:07 <Zakim> + +1.818.749.aaaa
16:01:28 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: Provenance WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06
16:01:33 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
16:01:51 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:01:58 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov
16:01:58 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:58 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
16:02:00 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:00 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
16:02:01 <Zakim> +tlebo
16:02:05 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:02:12 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
<pgroth> Summary: All outstanding comments have been addressed with respect to the CR phase. The Feb. 14, 2013 was cancelled due to the unavailability of the chairs. 
16:02:27 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2013-01-31
16:02:29 <TomDN> pgroth: approval of last week's minutes
16:02:55 <dgarijo> +1
16:02:56 <TomDN> +1
16:02:57 <khalidBelhajjame> +1
16:02:57 <Curt> +1
16:03:01 <hook> +1
16:03:11 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb
16:03:22 <ivan> 1
16:03:23 <TallTed> +0
16:03:27 <CraigTrim> +1
16:03:31 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of Jan. 31, 2013
16:04:19 <TomDN> pgroth: open actions: Luc needs to FAQ and I responded to Clark & Parsia
16:04:39 <TomDN> ... This closes all outstanding comments on the CR.
16:05:27 <pgroth> q?
16:05:29 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
16:05:30 <TomDN> ... Next week Luc and I can't make it, so we will cancel next week's telecon
16:05:32 <Zakim> +tlebo
16:05:38 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
16:05:39 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-XML
<pgroth> Summary: The group converged on several issues with respect to PROV-XML. The group agreed to adopt qnames for identifiers in prov-xml as it seemed to be the most natural for xml and had the least number of issues. The group agreed to have an ordering of attributes in prov-xml in order to facilitate usage in tools, in particular, jaxb. It was also suggested to create an FAQ entry/page around the use of PROV-XML with jaxb giving examples etc.. A discussion was had around the current organization of the schemas. After explanation, the group was satisfied with the current structure. The editors were encouraged to get the changes done so that a review can happen before a PR release. 
16:05:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:55 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
16:06:00 <TomDN> pgroth: We want to converge on some outstanding issues
16:06:06 <GK> GK has joined #prov
16:06:06 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
16:06:09 <Zakim> +jcheney
16:06:23 <TomDN> ... First issue. Which identifiers do we use in PROV-XML?
16:06:32 <TomDN> ... editors are for the use of qnames
16:06:48 <TomDN> zednik: Qnames seem to have the least issues.
16:07:01 <TomDN> ... so best remaining option
16:07:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:07:07 <hook> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Prov-XML_Identifiers
16:07:34 <pgroth> q?
16:07:35 <hook> q+
16:07:35 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
16:07:37 <TomDN> pgroth: comments?
16:07:46 <satya> satya has joined #prov
16:07:52 <pgroth> ack hook
16:08:02 <TomDN> hook: Before we vote, could we list the disadvantages of qnames?
16:08:28 <tlebo> If you're excluding SADI!
16:08:30 <Zakim> + +44.238.055.aacc
16:08:32 <tlebo> ?!
16:08:40 <TomDN> ... for example, full URIs are not valid values of xs:QName
16:08:54 <tlebo> q+
16:08:59 <pgroth> ack tlebo
16:09:35 <TomDN> tlebo: This design is currently excluding SADI?
16:09:36 <zednik> q+
16:09:44 <pgroth> ack zednik
16:09:46 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
16:09:47 <TomDN> hook: you must use a namespace
16:10:11 <tlebo> q+ so is prefix an XML element?
16:10:18 <pgroth> ack tlebo
16:10:28 <TomDN> tlebo: So is prefix an XML element?
16:10:49 <SamCoppens> zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN
16:10:49 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
16:11:03 <TomDN> ... ignoring the existing XML ways to do this and defining our own
16:11:30 <TomDN> zednik: We didn't go down that path. We use the standard XML constructs
16:11:32 <pgroth> q?
16:11:40 <zednik> q-
16:11:45 <pgroth> Proposed: Adopt qnames for identifiers in PROV-XML
16:11:54 <ivan> +1
16:11:54 <SamCoppens> +1
16:11:56 <TallTed> +1
16:11:58 <zednik> +1
16:11:58 <khalidBelhajjame> +1
16:11:59 <Curt> +1
16:12:02 <hook> +1
16:12:11 <jcheney> +1
16:12:11 <TomDN> +0 (havent read all options)
16:12:13 <dgarijo> +0 (I haven't been following the discussions)
16:12:23 <satya> 0, I have not read it
16:12:30 <pgroth> Accepted: Adopt qnames for identifiers in PROV-XML
16:12:46 <Curt> I summarized the attribute ordering issue here: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Prov-XML_ElementOrdering
16:13:04 <TomDN> pgroth: Next issue is ordering of attributes to support "nice" JAXB
16:13:20 <TomDN> zednik: I think there is consensus now.
16:14:17 <pgroth> q?
16:14:40 <TomDN> ... Initially, the group didn't want to change the schema and work via JAXB mapping/etc. But those options seemed too complex, so Curt and I worked on adding ordering yesterday
16:14:44 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
16:15:16 <Curt> q+
16:15:20 <TomDN> ... So it's reasonable to proceed with ordered attributes
16:15:44 <TomDN> Curt: I think it's cleaner and more elegant
16:16:05 <pgroth> ack curt
16:16:16 <pgroth> Proposed: use order attributes in prov-xml
16:16:17 <TomDN> ... If we can change our schema to work with such a widely used tool, it's worth doing
16:16:21 <TomDN> +1
16:16:27 <ivan> +1
16:16:28 <SamCoppens> +1
16:16:29 <zednik> +1
16:16:30 <Curt> +1
16:16:31 <hook> +1
16:16:32 <jcheney> +1
16:16:33 <TallTed> +1
16:16:39 <dgarijo> +1
16:16:56 <pgroth> resolved: use order attributes in prov-xml
16:17:17 <TomDN> pgroth: Last issue was still under discussion
16:17:43 <TomDN> ... How are the xsd files organized and is it appropriate for the use of legacy xml?
16:17:54 <TomDN> zednik: Stian put together a nice page with all options
16:18:01 <Zakim> +??P33
16:18:08 <Zakim> - +44.238.055.aacc
16:18:24 <TomDN> ... We've reorganized the schemas to include the core schema
16:18:35 <Dong> Zakim, ??P33 is me
16:18:35 <Zakim> +Dong; got it
16:19:24 <TomDN> ... Everything seems to be working. There's still some discussion between Luc and Stian on the mailinglist.
16:19:39 <TomDN> Luc: I don't think there is consensus. Still have question.
16:19:49 <zednik> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvXMLNamespaces#Substitution_groups_and_abstract_elements
16:20:18 <TomDN> ... There are schema's out there describing provenance, and we want to be able to include these in PROV-XML
16:20:51 <TomDN> ... The proposed solution with the substitution group seems to require changes to legacy schema's.
16:20:55 <CraigTrim> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:20:55 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it
16:21:01 <TomDN> ... and this is undesirable.
16:21:32 <TomDN> zednik: The substitution groups are meant to include elements that are in the provenance namespace.
16:21:44 <TomDN> ... for everything else we still have xs:any
16:21:56 <pgroth> q?
16:22:03 <TomDN> ... so you can use elements that don't use the prov: namespace
16:22:22 <pgroth> q?
16:22:24 <TomDN> Luc: Ok, thank you for the clarification.
16:22:24 <Luc> q+
16:22:30 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:22:47 <TomDN> Luc: So, as we were talking about JAXB, does this also work with JAXB?
16:22:56 <TomDN> zednik: yes, the current version works with JAXB.
16:23:04 <pgroth> cool
16:24:22 <TomDN> Luc: So dictionary and mention work as well?
16:24:28 <TomDN> zednik: yes.
16:25:13 <TomDN> Luc: Why do we need a sequence of choice and abstract elements in the document element?
16:25:25 <TomDN> zednik: I think the latest schema might fix that
16:25:29 <TomDN> ... will doublecheck.
16:26:09 <TomDN> pgroth: So are you ok with the current solution, Luc?
16:26:20 <TomDN> Luc: Yes, it seems it's ok now.
16:26:40 <TomDN> pgroth: Seems the issue is resolved now then.
16:27:01 <TomDN> pgroth: To wrap-up, is there anything outstanding now?
16:27:08 <TomDN> zednik: just fixing up the text.
16:27:30 <Luc> q+
16:27:36 <TomDN> pgroth: Once the text is updated, we can go to internal review.
16:27:37 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:28:07 <TomDN> Luc: We need to make sure to get the PROV-XML reviews back in time for the PR pulication then
16:28:10 <pgroth> Topic: Implementation Report
<pgroth> Summary: A draft implementation report was presented.  Timetables to PR were discussed. The following timetable was outlined: Review of Implementation Report by the WG week of Feb 11. WG Vote on move to PR at Feb 21 telcon.  After that the goal would be to have publication date on March 12th (obviously, hoping that the W3C process goes smoothly). All documents including notes should be staged by March 5. We need to ensure proper review for notes by the WG by that time. 
16:28:24 <TomDN> pgroth: Dong and I have been working on the report
16:28:31 <pgroth> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/reports/prov-implementations.html
16:28:38 <TomDN> ... Dong did an impressive amount of work.
16:29:20 <TomDN> ... The report is almost done. Some small stuff remaining to do.
16:30:36 <TomDN> ... We'd like to send out the report for review on Monday, and set up the timetable for publication and going to the next stage.
16:31:28 <Luc> q+
16:31:29 <TomDN> Ivan: Maybe we can get the votes in by email by the end of next week
16:31:38 <TomDN> ... since there is no telecon next week
16:32:20 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:32:24 <TomDN> Luc: It may be good to try and speed up the process. But we need to allow them to respond/revise.
16:32:30 <dgarijo> there is a vocabulary named Jun Zhao :O
16:32:32 <TomDN> ... after the review.
16:33:03 <Luc> + section 7
16:33:12 <TomDN> Ivan: It looks good. We still need something that says: we met the exit criteria and this is why.
16:33:57 <TomDN> ... We have a lot of implementations, 54, which is very impressive.
16:34:41 <pgroth> everybody keep your enthusiasm up :-)
16:35:10 <TomDN> pgroth: Once we say we want to go to PR, do we need the big long email again?
16:35:21 <TomDN> ivan: yes, just like we did with CR.
16:35:29 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #prov
16:35:31 <TomDN> ... I can help.
16:35:48 <Luc> is it time to think of a publication date, to finalize our documents?
16:36:20 <Luc> q+
16:36:57 <TomDN> ivan: Am I correct that there is not that much editing left to be done?
16:37:06 <TomDN> pgroth: Just PROV-Constraints
16:37:13 <TomDN> jcheney: will do that tomorrow
16:37:24 <TomDN> ivan: excellent.
16:37:28 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:38:27 <TomDN> Luc: If we are going to vote by email, and the outcome it positive, we want to be ready for PR as soon as possible. So we need the URLs with the publication date.
16:39:22 <TomDN> Luc: So I suggest that Ivan starts the process to get the date agreed.
16:40:04 <TomDN> ivan: either March 7th or 12th
16:40:36 <TomDN> pgroth: I think we should aim for the 12th
16:40:47 <TomDN> ivan: yes, that seems without risk.
16:41:38 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
16:43:56 <TomDN> Luc: so the url's?
16:44:31 <TomDN> ivan: I think it's safe that the editors start preparing the documents for 2013.03.12 as date
16:44:43 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:45:50 <Luc> can we check all notes will be ready then?
16:45:52 <TomDN> pgroth: For health and safety reasons of half the chairs, we should ask the webmaster for the date :)
16:47:27 <TomDN> ivan: will do
16:47:59 <TomDN> ivan: Do note: what we send out for PR is the final document. So be sure to spellcheck etc. and be 100% sure
16:48:11 <TomDN> +q to ask if this also goes for the final notes
16:48:22 <tlebo> so, when are the PR drafts finalized?
16:48:25 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me
16:48:25 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
16:48:27 <pgroth> ack TomDN
16:48:27 <Zakim> TomDN, you wanted to ask if this also goes for the final notes
16:48:28 <pgroth> 
16:49:09 <TomDN> TomDN: Can we still touch the notes after we send out the PRs?
16:49:10 <dgarijo> ok!
16:49:25 <Luc> do we have time to review those that still need review?
16:49:26 <TomDN> pgroth: yes, but we'd like the final version of the notes on the 12th
16:49:36 <pgroth> action: paul to remind note editors about March 12 deadline
16:49:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-164 - Remind note editors about March 12 deadline [on Paul Groth - due 2013-02-14].
16:49:43 <TomDN> ... We will send out a note via email about this
16:49:54 <TomDN> Zakim. mute me
16:50:25 <TomDN> ivan: So april 23rd will probably be the final final final final date for the notes as well.
16:50:29 <dgarijo> +q
16:50:30 <Luc> q+
16:50:35 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:50:57 <TomDN> Luc: I want to make sure that we have the time to get all notes ready by March 12th
16:51:08 <TomDN> ... Some still need review
16:51:20 <TomDN> ... for example PROV-XML, maybe PROV-AQ, PROV-DC, ...
16:51:52 <TomDN> ivan: There's no last call for notes, so the 12th is a WD publication, so April 23rd is the final date
16:52:04 <TomDN> Luc: but some reviewers blocked the release of PROV-AQ
16:52:17 <dgarijo> -q
16:52:21 <TomDN> ... and we need a vote for the synchronized release of the notes
16:52:33 <TomDN> ... So we need an appropriate amount of time.
16:53:19 <TomDN> ... Will we have enough time?
16:53:23 <satya> sorry, I have to leave
16:53:28 <TomDN> pgroth: We have 4 weeks to complete reviews
16:53:30 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
16:54:02 <TomDN> ... PROV-XML looks almost done, PROV-DC we will hear about next, and PROV-AQ will probably be done in time.
16:54:37 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DC
<pgroth> Summary: Daniel gave an update on PROV-DC. Has addressed most of the issues from the review although there are a couple that remained that need to be resolved. Will continue work on this the week of Feb 25. 
16:54:49 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/AnswersToProvDCReviewers
16:55:06 <TomDN> dgarijo: update on PROV-DC. Been working on response to reviews and edits in the document
16:55:23 <TomDN> ... Raised new issues for the remaining things to do.
16:55:35 <TomDN> ... Main issues are summarized on wikipage
16:56:19 <TomDN> ... about dct:isVersionOf, we have enough material to discuss with dct people.
16:56:41 <TomDN> pgroth: Would like review now or after issues are resolved?
16:57:02 <pgroth> q?
16:57:21 <TomDN> dgarijo: Would like time to finish the issues. But if someone wants to have a look, be my guest. People can also answer in comment to the wikipage
16:57:33 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dc-note/dc-note.html
16:57:58 <pgroth> q?
16:58:32 <tlebo> when is the dead deadline for the implementation report?
16:58:37 <TomDN> pgroth: OK thanks. We still have time for extra implementations. So submit!
16:58:50 <TomDN> +q to ask about implementations on Notes
16:59:00 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me
16:59:00 <Zakim> TomDN was not muted, TomDN
16:59:45 <TomDN> TomDN: Where can we put implementations of notes?
16:59:47 <pgroth> ack TomDN
16:59:47 <Zakim> TomDN, you wanted to ask about implementations on Notes
16:59:51 <TomDN> pgroth: On the implementation wiki page
17:00:00 <dgarijo> bbye
17:00:02 <Zakim> -tlebo
17:00:03 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
17:00:05 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb
17:00:06 <Zakim> -jcheney
17:00:07 <Zakim> -TallTed
17:00:07 <Dong> bye
17:00:08 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:00:08 <Zakim> -dgarijo
17:00:10 <Zakim> -pgroth
17:00:14 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:00:15 <Zakim> -TomDN
17:00:19 <TomDN> bye
17:00:51 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
17:00:55 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-minutes.html pgroth
17:00:59 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
17:00:59 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:01:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Ivan, dgarijo, Curt_Tilmes, TomDN, +1.818.749.aaaa, TallTed, tlebo, +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo,
17:01:00 <Zakim> ... +44.238.055.aacc, SamCoppens, Dong, CraigTrim
17:01:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:01:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-minutes.html trackbot
17:01:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:01:08 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-actions.rdf :
17:01:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: paul to remind note editors about March 12 deadline [1]
17:01:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-irc#T16-49-36
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