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15:57:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 15:57:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-prov-irc 15:57:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:57:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 15:57:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:57:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started 15:57:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:57:13 <trackbot> Date: 17 January 2013 15:57:14 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:57:14 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started 15:57:16 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes 15:57:27 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.17 15:57:31 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov 15:57:38 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau 15:57:44 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 15:58:44 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 15:58:54 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 15:59:00 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa 15:59:07 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov 15:59:13 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me 15:59:14 <Zakim> +Luc; got it 15:59:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:59:26 <Zakim> +??P6 15:59:33 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P6 is me 15:59:34 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 15:59:35 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:59:35 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 15:59:46 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 15:59:54 <dgarijo> Luc, if nobody volunteers, I can be the scribe 16:00:30 <Luc> it's very kind daniel, first, let's see if we can find somebody else, 16:00:39 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 16:00:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc, pgroth, dgarijo 16:00:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see zednik, Paolo, dgarijo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Curt, Luc, TallTed, ivan, trackbot, stain 16:00:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:00:54 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 16:00:54 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 16:00:56 <Zakim> +Ivan 16:01:00 <Paolo> HI I have done it quite recently but can do it again 16:01:02 <Luc> zakim, who is noisy? 16:01:02 <Paolo> if needed 16:01:03 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb 16:01:12 <Zakim> Luc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ivan (2%) 16:01:14 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 16:01:20 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: Provenance WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.17 16:01:20 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone? 16:01:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc, pgroth, dgarijo, [IPcaller], Ivan, +1.315.330.aabb 16:01:26 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb 16:01:26 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 16:01:47 <Luc> scribe: tlebo 16:01:59 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov 16:02:05 <Luc> zakim, who is noisy? 16:02:16 <Zakim> Luc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ivan (56%) 16:02:26 <tlebo> (I think this IRC client has dropped me before, so I might need to hand off to someone mid-stream) 16:02:33 <pgroth> ivan has the loudest keyboard ever 16:02:37 <ivan> zakim, mute me 16:02:37 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted 16:02:42 <ivan> :-( 16:02:48 <tlebo> :-) 16:03:04 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov 16:03:19 <Zakim> +??P41 16:03:22 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 16:03:24 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2013-01-10 16:03:27 <dgarijo> 0 (I wasn't there) 16:03:28 <tlebo> proposed: approve minutes 16:03:29 <pgroth> Topic: Admin 16:03:40 <Luc> proposed: to approve last week's minutes 16:03:41 <ivan> +1 16:03:42 <tlebo> 0 (was not here) 16:03:48 <Curt> 0 (not present) 16:03:48 <Paolo> 0 (missed it) 16:03:49 <dgarijo> 0 16:03:52 <smiles> +1 16:03:56 <Dong> +1 16:03:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 16:04:11 <Luc> resolved: last week's minutes 16:04:34 <tlebo> luc: action on Tim for cross referencing. 16:04:43 <Zakim> +??P22 16:04:46 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 16:04:48 <GK> GK has joined #prov 16:04:55 <hook> hook has joined #prov 16:05:05 <satya> satya has joined #prov 16:05:05 <tlebo> tim: I'll look at the cross reference. 16:05:06 <Zakim> +[OpenLink] 16:05:06 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aacc 16:05:12 <TallTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me 16:05:12 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it 16:05:15 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me 16:05:15 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted 16:05:17 <tlebo> luc: action on himself... 16:05:26 <tlebo> luc: action on Stephan for namespaces. 16:05:40 <tlebo> zednik: have looked at identifiers 16:06:05 <tlebo> pgroth: I've done all actions on me. 16:06:22 <Zakim> +??P13 16:06:42 <Luc> topic: Implementations <LUC>Summary: Paul reviewed all implementation surveys submitted so far. While the numbers look healthy, it was noted that 7 implementation reports were submitted by Southampton. Many implementers are known to have implemented PROV but have not submitted yet. Group members are strong invited to submit their reports. 16:06:55 <tlebo> luc: paul went through surveys recently. 16:07:01 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2013Jan/0073.html 16:07:02 <dgarijo> I've added all the remaining implementations that I had added in the wiki. Some of them today 16:07:09 <tlebo> pgroth: announced it via email 16:07:27 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov 16:07:32 <tlebo> ... reports from 9 organizations 16:07:58 <tlebo> ... southampton has 7 implementations. 16:08:01 <Zakim> +Ruben 16:08:13 <TomDN> Zakim, +Ruben is me 16:08:13 <Zakim> sorry, TomDN, I do not recognize a party named '+Ruben' 16:08:14 <tlebo> ... provo is good track; all constructs supported by 2 sep implementations. 16:08:21 <TomDN> Zakim, Ruben is me 16:08:21 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it 16:08:25 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 16:08:33 <tlebo> ... provo needs a pair of implmeentations to exchange. 16:08:39 <TomDN> Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN 16:08:39 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it 16:08:44 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 16:08:44 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 16:08:47 <GK_> GK_ has joined #prov 16:08:55 <tlebo> ... it's easy to hit that min by having SH and Kings to exchange prov. 16:08:58 <GK_> Zakim, ??p13 is me 16:08:58 <Zakim> +GK_; got it 16:09:11 <tlebo> ... for prov-n it is less satisfying. only 2 orgs: SH and weblab. 16:09:22 <tlebo> ... tom and sam have prov-n implementations. 16:09:32 <tlebo> ... but do weblab actually support it? 16:09:42 <tlebo> ... they say openRDF sesame as the library (implies prov-o) 16:09:50 <Paolo> I am going to add implementation with prov-n support 16:09:52 <Luc> q+ 16:09:55 <tlebo> ... need to rely on tom/sam implementation 16:09:55 <Paolo> (applications) 16:10:13 <tlebo> ... constraints: luc's implementation, but we need one more impl. 16:10:31 <pgroth> it's a good thing! 16:10:44 <tlebo> luc: # implementations on southampton, some on different languages. 16:10:46 <GK> GK has joined #prov 16:11:00 <tlebo> ... we can demonstrate language independence if not org independence. 16:11:15 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me 16:11:15 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted 16:11:18 <tlebo> ... TomDN implementing? isn't he using the provtoolbox? 16:11:46 <Paolo> q+ 16:11:50 <tlebo> TomDN: not really using the toolbox. 16:12:09 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:12:15 <pgroth> ace paolo 16:12:18 <pgroth> ack paolo 16:12:27 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 16:12:27 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 16:12:31 <Luc> q+ 16:12:35 <tlebo> Paolo: Tom's note, if I produce prov-n w/o provtoolbox then it counts as a new implementation. 16:12:44 <pgroth> ack luc 16:13:02 <tlebo> luc: ideally, we want full independence. 16:13:13 <tlebo> ... but we made the case that prov-n is aimed at human consumption. 16:13:19 <tlebo> ... so no need for interoperability. 16:13:46 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me 16:13:46 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted 16:13:49 <tlebo> pgroth: for prov-n, does TomDN consume prov info as prov-n? 16:13:50 <Luc> prov-dm contains examples of prov-dm, consumable by prov toolbox. So it's a pair! 16:14:01 <Luc> prov-dm contains examples of PROV-N, consumable by prov toolbox. So it's a pair! 16:14:19 <tlebo> TomDN: I read it == I evaluate. It generates it == write. 16:14:23 <GK> A precedent we might look at is the "human" syntax(es) for OWL - what do they do? 16:14:39 <Luc> @TomDN, can you validate your prov-n with my validator? 16:15:12 <tlebo> TomDN: I can produce a file from my tool as prov-n. 16:15:18 <Luc> @TomDN, can you paste your prov-n into http://openprovenance.org/prov/validator.html 16:15:25 <tlebo> pgroth: we want to give TomDN's prov-n to luc's validator. 16:15:33 <tlebo> ... then we have a pair. 16:15:41 <Luc> or http://openprovenance.org/prov/translator.html 16:16:00 <tlebo> pgroth: tom doens't use all of the constructs. 16:16:05 <tlebo> TomDN: no. 16:16:11 <tlebo> pgroth: extend to use other constructs? 16:16:14 <tlebo> TomDN: not easy. 16:16:27 <Luc> q+ 16:16:32 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:16:47 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 16:16:47 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 16:16:58 <tlebo> Luc: prov-dm doc is an example of prov-n generation. so all statements can be validated by toolbox. 16:17:02 <tlebo> .. thus an interop pair 16:17:27 <tlebo> pgroth: we need to add it to the quesionnaire 16:17:33 <TomDN> (I will provide some rationale on my questionaire answers to explain the read/write answers 16:17:48 <tlebo> pgroth: we should do it as the WG 16:17:49 <GK> q+ to suggest looking in to how http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/REC-owl2-syntax-20121211/ was handled 16:18:01 <Zakim> -GK_ 16:18:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa] 16:18:07 <GK> Losrt my client 16:18:08 <tlebo> pgroth: we seem to have coverage on prov-n (with these steps) 16:18:23 <GK> Sorry lost connection 16:18:23 <Luc> q? 16:18:37 <Zakim> +??P13 16:18:46 <pgroth> q+ to say we need a pair for prov-o 16:18:46 <GK> zakim, ??p13 is me 16:18:47 <Zakim> +GK; got it 16:18:51 <tlebo> Luc: please submit the implementation reports. 16:18:58 <stain> Zakim, ??P13 is me 16:18:58 <Zakim> I already had ??P13 as GK, stain 16:19:08 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa] 16:19:19 <tlebo> GK: prov-n and interop -- find out what OWL WG did with their functional syntax. 16:19:22 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV 16:19:25 <tlebo> ... it's similar role. 16:19:28 <Luc> q? 16:19:32 <ivan> unmute ivan 16:19:34 <Luc> ack gk 16:19:34 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to suggest looking in to how http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/REC-owl2-syntax-20121211/ was handled 16:19:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me 16:19:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted 16:20:15 <pgroth> i think we have a solution now for prov-n 16:20:15 <tlebo> ivan: i don't remember how function syntax was handled. it was just a specification language - not a cand rec requiement to parse it. 16:20:16 <Luc> q? 16:20:38 <tlebo> ... for OWL systems, they needed to exchange RDF/XML. the ONLY one. 16:20:39 <GK> That was my guess - I think PROV-N might be presented similarly? 16:20:45 <pgroth> Tom's implementation + validator and prov-dm docs + validator 16:20:45 <Luc> q? 16:20:48 <Luc> ack pg 16:20:48 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to say we need a pair for prov-o 16:21:03 <tlebo> pgroth: provo coverage is fine, we need some pairs. 16:21:09 <Zakim> +??P44 16:21:15 <tlebo> ... could simon and luc make that pair? 16:21:48 <tlebo> Luc: the service is available online. anyone can paste them in to validator or translator. 16:21:52 <tlebo> ... they can just report it. 16:21:56 <smiles> Luc - Can you give the URL again? 16:22:07 <stain> Zakim: ??P44 is me 16:22:11 <stain> Zakim, ??P44 is me 16:22:11 <Zakim> +stain; got it 16:22:11 <tlebo> pgroth: a pair isn't one directional? 16:22:22 <stain> Zakim, ??P44 is also khalidBelhajjame 16:22:22 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P44 is also khalidBelhajjame', stain 16:22:25 <tlebo> pgroth: simon, dump out provo and validate it? 16:22:34 <tlebo> smiles: yes, if it takes turtle 16:22:36 <ivan> zakim, mute me 16:22:36 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted 16:22:50 <Luc> http://openprovenance.org/prov/validator.html 16:23:01 <tlebo> Luc: anybody can do that. 16:23:04 <Luc> q? 16:23:04 <pgroth> constraints 16:23:04 <GK> I think producer -> consumer (one way) is OK - it shoews two developers read spec and had some common understanding 16:23:11 <pgroth> q+ 16:23:30 <tlebo> pgroth: constraints. luc did them, pgroth is slowing working them. 16:23:41 <tlebo> ... obviously good to have more than 2 16:23:47 <tlebo> ... or even if other parts of implementations. 16:23:59 <tlebo> ... 47 unit tests away from full coverage. 16:24:16 <tlebo> ... shoiuld be able to do it. 16:24:21 <tlebo> +1 :-) 16:24:35 <tlebo> luc: Paolo was working on partial constriants 16:24:44 <Luc> Regrets: jcheney 16:24:53 <TomDN> Does your implementation need to be completely finished by Jan. 31st? 16:24:57 <tlebo> Paolo: jun and I havent' worked on it. 16:25:07 <pgroth> @TomDN it's about the report really 16:25:17 <tlebo> Luc: when? by end of month? 16:25:20 <tlebo> Paolo: not by then. 16:25:26 <pgroth> +q to ask about stardog 16:25:29 <Luc> q? 16:25:31 <TomDN> @pgroth, thanks, that's what i thought 16:25:55 <tlebo> pgroth: we knwo there are implementations out there than what is reported. 16:26:04 <tlebo> ... we should all sign up to report implementations. 16:26:22 <tlebo> ... e.g. stardog is doing it. 16:26:27 <tlebo> ... approach individually. 16:26:50 <Luc> q? 16:26:52 <Luc> ack pg 16:26:52 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about stardog 16:26:54 <tlebo> (I tried to poke the LInkedTV via twitter yesterday -- it's not coming out till Feb) 16:27:01 <pgroth> but there's also dbpedia, and qudt, etc 16:27:04 <Luc> topic: Response to public comments 16:27:08 <tlebo> zakim, who is making noise? 16:27:09 <pgroth> simon can you mute 16:27:12 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicCommentsCR 16:27:18 <Zakim> tlebo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (83%), ??P41 (28%) 16:27:30 <pgroth> zakim, mute ??P41 16:27:30 <Zakim> ??P41 should now be muted 16:27:30 <GK> (There's also the possibility of submitting "third party" reports for public implemenbtations) 16:27:43 <Luc> q? 16:27:47 <pgroth> @GK i didn't no that 16:27:52 <pgroth> s/no/know 16:28:00 <Luc> q? 16:28:09 <Luc> Proposed: the group endorses the responses to issues 611 and 612 16:28:14 <TomDN> +1 16:28:17 <ivan> +1 16:28:18 <khalidBelhajjame> +1 16:28:18 <tlebo> +1 16:28:19 <satya> +1 16:28:21 <zednik> +1 16:28:23 <stain> +1 16:28:26 <Dong> +q 16:28:26 <TallTed> +1 16:28:27 <GK> @paul - I don't *know* that, but I can't see any reason why now 16:28:34 <SamCoppens> +1 16:28:36 <Luc> q? 16:28:36 <dgarijo> +0 (I haven't reviewed them yet) 16:28:38 <hook> +1 16:28:39 <smiles> +1 (noting that I sent a suggestion just before this call) 16:28:41 <GK> +0 16:28:50 <Paolo> 0 haven't reviewed in detail 16:28:53 <Luc> Resolved: the group endorses the responses to issues 611 and 612 16:28:54 <Curt> +0 (haven't reviewed) 16:29:04 <stain> @TallTed what happened to McTed over New Year? :) 16:29:13 <tlebo> luc: who to respond to reviewers? 16:29:15 <Dong> q- 16:29:15 <pgroth> sure 16:29:17 <Luc> q? 16:29:21 <tlebo> Luc: : is it paul? 16:29:25 <tlebo> pgroth: I can do that. 16:29:33 <tlebo> ... we had a question about derivation. 16:29:57 <tlebo> ... wasQUotedFrom, not derivation. 16:30:08 <dgarijo> I think it was about the name of wasQuotedFrom. 16:30:12 <tlebo> (I think it's the same mix-up that "Tim vs. Stian+Daniel" had. 16:30:13 <stain> it was about the directionality - as I originally complained about it 16:30:23 <stain> he suggested hadQuoteFrom 16:30:27 <dgarijo> yep 16:30:35 <Luc> q? 16:30:57 <pgroth> action: pgroth to respond to public comments 16:30:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Respond to public comments [on Paul Groth - due 2013-01-24]. 16:30:58 <Dong> @Luc and Tim: I've just remember that some PROV-O examples might need to be revised in ISSUE-611 16:31:02 <tlebo> luc: wasquotedFrom, can't recall. 16:31:17 <TomDN> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2013Jan/0006.html 16:31:27 <hook> hook has joined #prov 16:31:29 <stain> I think we need another WG discussion on email about it 16:31:57 <TallTed> stain - just unifying my nick across a few spaces (Twitter, a couple of IRC nets, etc.) ... 16:32:03 <stain> if the term was confusing in the primer.. then it's confusing all over 16:32:04 <tlebo> q+ to note that we couldn't converge last time on the naming. 16:32:15 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aacc 16:32:44 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aadd 16:32:56 <tlebo> ECHO 16:32:57 <pgroth> echo madness 16:33:02 <stain> zakim, who is noisy? 16:33:06 <pgroth> simon 16:33:07 <Luc> q? 16:33:13 <Zakim> stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tlebo (31%) 16:33:14 <pgroth> ack tlebo 16:33:16 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to note that we couldn't converge last time on the naming. 16:33:38 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 16:34:00 <smiles> @tlebo - Do you have a link to that email conversation? 16:34:01 <Luc> q? 16:34:10 <stain> but this email was from Chuck Norris - which sounds like a native speaker 16:34:11 <Luc> q? 16:34:15 <tlebo> smiles: I can dig up the ISSUE. 16:34:17 <stain> MORRIS 16:34:19 <stain> hihi 16:34:26 <smiles> OK 16:34:26 <dgarijo> @stian:lol 16:34:56 <Zakim> +??P32 16:35:15 <Luc> q? 16:35:17 <Paolo> zakim, ??P32 is me 16:35:17 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it 16:35:25 <Luc> topic: prov-dictionary 16:35:27 <tlebo> tlebo: I'll dig through them. thanks for the reminder 16:35:44 <TomDN> no 16:35:54 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me 16:35:54 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted 16:36:03 <tlebo> smiles: https://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/352 is the wasQuotedFrom naming discussion 16:36:13 <Paolo> deadline is 23rd, right? 16:36:31 <pgroth> fine with me 16:36:35 <tlebo> Luc: reviewers should give feedback by next wed. 16:36:41 <pgroth> paul 16:36:49 <smiles> @tlebo Thanks! 16:36:59 <TomDN> Paolo, Stian, James (maybe), Luc, and Paul, 16:37:02 <Luc> q? 16:37:11 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 16:37:11 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 16:37:12 <Luc> topic: prov-aq 16:37:38 <Luc> q? 16:37:41 <tlebo> GK: I've seen 4 reviews in 16:37:57 <tlebo> pgroth: tim, simon, luc, dong, stian 16:38:18 <tlebo> h! 16:38:22 <pgroth> your back 16:38:46 <tlebo> pgroth: all have reviewed. 16:38:54 <pgroth> shall i go 16:39:08 <pgroth> q+ 16:39:11 <tlebo> GK: through 1.5 sets of comments. 16:39:15 <tlebo> ... most are editorial. 16:39:25 <tlebo> ... hoping to pick out those that are more than editorial. 16:39:42 <pgroth> that's not the main issue 16:39:45 <tlebo> ... issue on REST interface vs. simple convention for URI to retrieve prov. 16:40:04 <tlebo> pgroth: everyone but stian said doc can go LC 16:40:10 <stain> q+ 16:40:17 <tlebo> ... stian has 8-9 blocking issues. 16:40:39 <Luc> q+ 16:40:44 <Luc> ack pg 16:40:46 <tlebo> ... we should concentrate on blocking issues from stian. 16:40:46 <GK> Ah, I hadn't yet looked at those blocking issues from Stian 16:41:07 <tlebo> stain: my issues: it was heavy. 16:41:16 <Luc> q? 16:41:20 <Luc> ack sta 16:41:24 <tlebo> ... as a draft, fine. but not as final technical. 16:41:25 <stain> @GK sorry about that.. 16:41:27 <Luc> ack luc 16:41:40 <tlebo> Luc: i'm fine wiht doc released as next WD. 16:41:58 <tlebo> ... I felt that feedback required changes, and so not last call. 16:42:02 <pgroth> q+ 16:42:04 <tlebo> ... we don't have notion of last call in Note. 16:42:09 <tlebo> ... we're abusing that name. 16:42:20 <Luc> q? 16:42:21 <tlebo> ... as next draft, fine. 16:42:44 <tlebo> pgroth: we should distinguish between release and not wanting to do any more to it. 16:43:08 <tlebo> ... address all comments, release a WD at a minimum. OR when we go PRec with other docs. 16:43:17 <tlebo> ... but can we get another iteration? 16:43:17 <Luc> q? 16:43:19 <hook> hook has joined #prov 16:43:22 <tlebo> ... before PR 16:43:25 <GK> @paul +1 review/revise as much as possible 16:43:32 <Luc> q? 16:43:32 <tlebo> ... we need two more itnerations on PAQ 16:43:55 <tlebo> Luc: we should be pragmatic about Notes and making it too perfect. 16:44:00 <GK> If the issues are substantive, I don't think they should be "offline" 16:44:09 <Luc> q? 16:44:30 <pgroth> @gk i was talking about scheduling 16:44:44 <GK> @paul Ah, OK. 16:44:46 <tlebo> Luc: do we vote? or do work and editors cycle? 16:44:57 <tlebo> pgroth: next week or following for WD. 16:45:01 <Luc> ack pg 16:45:11 <TomDN> (can be synced with dictionary then) 16:45:18 <tlebo> ... take off "final" terminology" 16:45:28 <Luc> q? 16:45:43 <Luc> topic: prov-xml 16:45:45 <tlebo> topic: prov-xml 16:46:02 <GK> Next week is likely busy for me. I'll try to complete my pass through the reviews today. 16:46:25 <tlebo> luc: namespace, schema management, etc. 16:46:44 <tlebo> zednik: some feedback on original note. extended types was confusing with prov:type. 16:46:52 <tlebo> ... made native XML type for those. 16:47:30 <tlebo> ... identifiers: work natively for XML 16:47:33 <tlebo> ... id and idref 16:47:40 <tlebo> id uses xsi:id 16:47:54 <tlebo> ... base type of idRef -- xml tooling is familiar. 16:48:12 <tlebo> .. cannot start with numbers, other constraints. 16:48:24 <tlebo> ... it's native but doesn't work with our examples or URIs. 16:48:33 <tlebo> ... alternative: anyURI or QNames 16:48:34 <pgroth> @gk see where you can get and see what needs to be debated 16:48:44 <tlebo> ... not sure which would be better. 16:48:50 <tlebo> ... also xlinks and xpointers. 16:49:06 <GK> @paul - that's my plan - I'm making notes as I go. I'll email you a copy when done. 16:49:13 <pgroth> @gk awesome 16:49:16 <ivan> q+ 16:49:23 <tlebo> ... xpointers and xlinks might let us verify references existing. 16:49:28 <ivan> ack ivan 16:49:32 <tlebo> ... the group needs to read up on xlinks/xpointers. 16:49:35 <Luc> ack iv 16:49:46 <tlebo> ivan: how widely is xlink implemented? 16:50:03 <tlebo> ... do tools really do it? xlink is an unlucky standard. 16:50:10 <Luc> q? 16:50:23 <hook> q+ 16:50:32 <tlebo> ... might not be worth adopting, could be more harm than good. 16:50:48 <tlebo> hook: xlinks ISO community uses them to reference external XML traces. 16:50:59 <tlebo> ... in bundles, can reference across bundles. 16:51:09 <tlebo> ... but good point on how much it's used. 16:51:15 <Luc> q? 16:51:22 <Luc> ack ho 16:51:31 <tlebo> ... we still need to look into xlinks. 16:51:50 <tlebo> Luc: have your changes surfaced to the WG? 16:52:00 <tlebo> ... some may want to get insight into your changes. 16:52:20 <tlebo> ... (are you using issue tracker?) 16:52:30 <Luc> q? 16:52:54 <tlebo> zednik: announced, but did not tag into ISSUE. 16:53:12 <Luc> q? 16:53:37 <tlebo> zednik: last modeling was valid. 16:53:55 <tlebo> Luc: namespace management issue 16:54:08 <tlebo> ... the namespace HTML is waiting on it. 16:54:30 <tlebo> zednik: seems like we're misusing xml namesapces. 16:54:49 <tlebo> ... the extension should have a different namespace. 16:54:58 <tlebo> ... including dictionary in new namespace 16:55:24 <tlebo> ... stian proposed an organization, but not ideal. 16:55:37 <tlebo> ... the xml schema should have different namespaces. 16:55:58 <TomDN> (didn't we vote on this a few months ago?) 16:56:03 <Luc> q? 16:56:03 <pgroth> q+ 16:56:18 <Luc> ack pg 16:56:37 <tlebo> pgroth: prov dictionary etc being in different docs doesn't mean it's not in the same thing. 16:56:54 <tlebo> ... (they are in same group, it's just broken up to aid understanding). 16:56:58 <Luc> zakim. who is noisy? 16:57:07 <Luc> zakim, who is noisy? 16:57:14 <tlebo> pgroth: from practice, developers do not like separate namespaces. 16:57:17 <Zakim> Luc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (90%) 16:57:30 <hook> hook has joined #prov 16:57:30 <tlebo> ... PROV namespace will included in RDFa automatically. 16:57:44 <ivan> s/RDFa/RDFa 1.1/ 16:57:57 <tlebo> Luc: is nice to have one ns 16:58:24 <tlebo> Luc: a prov-xml dictionary namespace? 16:58:37 <TomDN> then we need a prov-links namespace as well 16:58:55 <GK> IMO, if any of the XML namespaces are different from the corresponding RDF, then they should *all* be different 16:59:10 <stain> q+ 16:59:13 <GK> .. including the "core" namespace 16:59:31 <Curt> just do 2, core, and core + all extensions 16:59:51 <Luc> q? 16:59:52 <stain> exactly.. we do a single schema with only core, and one with core-everything 16:59:53 <tlebo> q+ to ask zednik where the motivation for different namespaces comes from 16:59:59 <Luc> ack st 17:00:25 <tlebo> stain: oen for core prov xml, one that is prov-everything xml schema. If you don't like either of those, then you're on your own. 17:00:26 <zednik> q+ 17:00:43 <Luc> ack tl 17:00:43 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask zednik where the motivation for different namespaces comes from 17:01:57 <Luc> q+ 17:02:27 <Curt> I'm ok with one schema with everything 17:02:46 <pgroth> q+ prov-xml is a note 17:02:57 <pgroth> i like that 17:02:57 <tlebo> q- 17:03:02 <zednik> q- 17:04:01 <tlebo> Luc: : single schema file with all terms that use one namespace, THEN half-way house of a single schema for just the core Rec terms. 17:04:03 <pgroth> q+ to say that it is a single namespace 17:04:20 <Luc> ack luc 17:04:33 <stain> I think this is mainly an artifact of XML Schema being very strict of linking schemas and namespaces - this is not a big deal in other ways to express XML schemas like Relax NG 17:05:03 <pgroth> ack pgroth 17:05:03 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to say that it is a single namespace 17:05:25 <tlebo> pgroth: everyone should be able to paste the namespace to a browser and get all serializations documented. 17:05:34 <khalidBelhajjame> bye 17:05:34 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 17:05:36 <Zakim> -tlebo 17:05:36 <Zakim> -Paolo 17:05:37 <Zakim> -??P22 17:05:37 <Zakim> -TomDN 17:05:37 <GK> Bye 17:05:37 <SamCoppens> bye 17:05:38 <dgarijo> bbye 17:05:39 <Zakim> -stain 17:05:40 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a] 17:05:41 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 17:05:43 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aadd 17:05:44 <Zakim> -pgroth 17:05:45 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov 17:05:46 <Zakim> -dgarijo 17:05:46 <Zakim> -Ivan 17:05:46 <tlebo> Luc: I am done scribing? 17:05:47 <ivan> ivan has left #prov 17:05:48 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 17:05:50 <Zakim> -??P41 17:05:53 <Zakim> -TallTed 17:05:54 <Zakim> -GK 17:06:20 <GK> GK has left #prov 17:06:31 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 17:06:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-prov-minutes.html Luc 17:06:35 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 17:06:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 17:06:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Curt_Tilmes, Luc, dgarijo, pgroth, [IPcaller], Ivan, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aacc, TallTed, TomDN, SamCoppens, GK_, 17:06:36 <Zakim> ... GK, stain, +1.818.731.aadd, Paolo 17:06:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:06:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-prov-minutes.html trackbot 17:06:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 17:06:44 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-prov-actions.rdf : 17:06:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pgroth to respond to public comments  17:06:44 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/17-prov-irc#T16-30-57 # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000527