Chatlog 2012-12-06

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15:52:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:52:48 <RRSAgent> logging to
15:52:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:52:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:52:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:52:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:52:53 <trackbot> Date: 06 December 2012
15:53:17 <Luc> trackbot, start telcon
15:53:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:53:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:53:22 <trackbot> Date: 06 December 2012
15:53:25 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:53:25 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:43 <Luc> Agenda:
15:53:55 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
15:54:31 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
15:55:01 <Luc> Regrets: James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Timothy Lebo
15:56:22 <pgroth> you can add Stephan Zednik
15:56:26 <Luc> Regrets: James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Timothy Lebo, Stephan Zednik, Hook Hua
15:56:36 <pgroth> :-(
15:57:19 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:57:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:26 <pgroth> zakim, who is on the call?
15:57:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]
15:57:36 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:57:36 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:57:55 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:57:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, ivan
15:58:20 <Zakim> +ivan
15:58:28 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:58:34 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa
15:58:47 <Luc> zakim,  +44.238.059.aaaa is me
15:58:47 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
15:58:58 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?
15:58:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ivan, Luc
15:59:20 <lebot> lebot has joined #prov
15:59:28 <Zakim> +??P13
15:59:39 <smiles> zakim, ??P13 is me
15:59:39 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
15:59:44 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
16:00:35 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov
16:00:41 <jun> jun has joined #prov
16:00:43 <Zakim> + +1.315.941.aabb
16:00:49 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb
16:00:49 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
16:01:04 <Zakim> +??P1
16:01:13 <jun> zakim, ??p1 is me
16:01:13 <Zakim> +jun; got it
16:01:13 <Luc> i need a scribe please
16:01:26 <pgroth> i can if no one else
16:01:28 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:01:38 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:38 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:39 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:01:39 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:01:44 <smiles> I can scribe
16:01:47 <tlebo> sorry, I might get pulled away during the call.
16:01:58 <smiles> ok
16:02:05 <smiles> Scribe: smiles
16:02:11 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
16:02:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:32 <stain> zakim, +IPcaller is me
16:02:32 <Zakim> sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+IPcaller'
16:02:37 <stain> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:02:37 <Zakim> +stain; got it
16:02:49 <Luc> topic: admin
16:02:52 <Luc> proposed: to approve the minutes of last week's teleconference
16:03:01 <tlebo> +1
16:03:05 <ivan> +1
16:03:06 <jun> +1
16:03:14 <smiles> +1
16:03:15 <Dong> +1
16:03:20 <stain> 0 not read (the link?)
16:03:28 <Zakim> +??P30
16:03:35 <Luc> resolved: the minutes of last week's teleconference
16:03:39 <Zakim> +??P26
16:03:39 <stain>
16:03:59 <GK> GK has joined #prov
16:04:14 <GK> zakim, ??p26 is me
16:04:14 <Zakim> +GK; got it
16:04:16 <pgroth> no
16:04:17 <pgroth> no
16:04:19 <smiles> Luc:  Actions open, Tim's for later, Luc's not done, Stefan's will be covered later
16:04:20 <Zakim> -stain
16:04:37 <Luc> topoic: congratulations
16:04:44 <Luc>
16:04:58 <pgroth> s/topoic/topic
16:05:20 <smiles> Luc: Transition request approved for four new notes: overview, links, dc mapping, and xml
16:05:33 <smiles> ... congratulations to editors
16:06:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:06:14 <smiles> ivan: Checked with Dennis, who will check the release documents at the weekend, no problem with publication
16:06:17 <christine> christine has joined #prov
16:06:39 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aacc
16:06:43 <Luc> q?
16:06:51 <pgroth> q+
16:06:58 <smiles> Luc: May not be available at all times on Monday, Tuesday, to deal with problems
16:07:21 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov
16:07:22 <smiles> ivan: Publication will usually happen Tuesday morning Boston time
16:07:35 <pgroth> do we need a blog post?
16:07:36 <smiles> ... need blurb for W3C homepage
16:07:43 <Zakim> + +329331aadd
16:07:52 <pgroth> q+
16:07:53 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me
16:07:54 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it
16:07:59 <smiles> ... once publication is out, blog post would be good
16:08:03 <Luc> q?
16:08:11 <smiles> pgroth: I can prepare a blog post, ready for Tuesday
16:08:12 <TomDN> (sorry I'm late, other meeting ran late)
16:08:20 <Luc> ack pg
16:08:47 <smiles> ivan: Whatever goes to the W3C homepage, I repeat it on the activity blog
16:09:04 <smiles> ... so better if one of chairs write this text
16:09:21 <pgroth> yes
16:09:24 <smiles> ... could be separate blog post with more details, which can also go to activity blog
16:10:06 <smiles> pgroth: If something comes up regarding publication, we can directly edit the HTML?
16:10:11 <smiles> ivan: yes
16:10:16 <Luc> q?
16:10:28 <Luc> topic: Getting Things Ready for Implementation
16:10:33 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov
16:10:49 <smiles> Luc: There are outstanding questions regarding questionnaire
16:10:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:11:06 <khalidBelhajjame> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
16:11:06 <Zakim> +khalidBelhajjame; got it
16:11:15 <smiles> pgroth: Questionnaire has not changed much since last week, couple of things Stefan needs to do
16:11:37 <pgroth>
16:11:48 <smiles> ... he has copied three questionnaires into one and added question about PROV constraints
16:12:19 <smiles> ... he still needs to create the other questionnaires
16:12:38 <smiles> ... for different kinds of products: implementation, vocabulary
16:12:40 <Luc> q?
16:13:12 <smiles> Luc: questionnaire ready for management telecon tomorrow?
16:13:25 <smiles> ... does not have all links to concepts in CR documents
16:13:50 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
16:13:50 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
16:14:01 <smiles> pgroth: I can update this questionnaire with links
16:14:20 <smiles> Luc: currently links point to sections, not definitions
16:14:33 <tlebo> q?
16:15:22 <Luc> q?
16:15:44 <smiles> Luc: Any questions on questionnaires?
16:16:07 <Dong>
16:16:13 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
16:16:15 <smiles> Dong: (regarding test cases) Above are the current documents
16:16:41 <smiles> ... Issues raised by internal reviewers addressed, almost ready to go
16:16:49 <SamCoppens> zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN
16:16:49 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
16:17:08 <smiles> ... except that test cases missing for some constraints
16:18:05 <smiles> Luc: The test cases do not need to be frozen by 11th, need to be good but as others implement we may come up with other examples
16:18:18 <Luc> q?
16:18:57 <smiles> Dong: Good. In current version of test case document, we ask people to email results back to us, maybe be better to use questionnaire
16:19:12 <pgroth> that's a good idea…
16:19:26 <smiles> ... I will see if the questionnaire allows us to have text fields they can copy these into instead
16:20:03 <satya> satya has joined #prov
16:20:07 <smiles> pgroth: Could be possible, but would have to go through test case numbers in WBS
16:20:29 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
16:20:33 <Luc> if you look at the current questionnaire, you have free text boxes
16:20:44 <smiles> Dong: Do not to intend to list all test cases as options, but just provide big text fields
16:21:43 <Luc> q?
16:22:06 <smiles> Dong: need volunteer reviewers for test case document
16:22:45 <smiles> Luc: There are a couple of lines with no test cases listed, but for which we do have test cases
16:22:53 <smiles> Dong: Yes, some to add to test suite
16:23:27 <pgroth> +10
16:23:32 <smiles> Luc: Thanks to Dong for all the work: 240 different tests, for each of 3 serialisations
16:23:44 <Luc> q?
16:24:02 <smiles> ... Now need reviewers for test cases
16:24:26 <pgroth> q+
16:24:30 <Luc> q?
16:24:52 <smiles> pgroth: Can I do it while I implement?
16:25:40 <smiles> Luc: That's fine, though ideally you should not come back on 31 Jan with problem
16:26:15 <smiles> ... will also ask James C to review
16:26:24 <Luc> action jcheney to review the test cases
16:26:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Review the test cases [on James Cheney - due 2012-12-13].
16:26:32 <Luc> q?
16:26:43 <jun> I am in a similar position as Paul
16:26:57 <jun> I will review them while implementing them
16:26:59 <Luc> ack pg
16:27:02 <pgroth> yes
16:27:18 <Luc> action paolo to review the test cases
16:27:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - Review the test cases [on Paolo Missier - due 2012-12-13].
16:27:25 <Luc> q?
16:27:39 <tlebo> interested, but not willing to commit :-)
16:27:54 <Luc> q?
16:28:05 <smiles> Luc: Anything else regarding implementation?
16:28:11 <smiles> ivan: We are ready for tomorrow
16:28:59 <smiles> ivan: They will review the call sent to the chairs and links on that page
16:29:02 <Luc> topic: prov-xml
16:29:07 <stain> q+
16:29:16 <pgroth> stain
16:29:36 <stain>
16:29:41 <smiles> stain: Have investigated namespace issue
16:30:05 <smiles> ... have looked at how to deal with extensions, include or redefine namespaces
16:30:28 <smiles> ... propose use of substitution groups to allow for extensions
16:31:04 <smiles> ... namespace overlap issues become clean, as can reuse same namespace and use xsd:includes
16:32:10 <Luc> q?
16:32:15 <smiles> ... need to say something about how others do extensions, manage adding complex type elements with attributes, etc.
16:32:15 <Luc> ack stain
16:32:59 <smiles> Luc: do not have editors on call, so cannot make decisions, but can pass Stian's wiki page to initiate debate
16:33:00 <Luc> q?
16:33:26 <pgroth> q+
16:33:33 <Luc> action zednik to review and come back with a response
16:33:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-156 - Review and come back with a response [on Stephan Zednik - due 2012-12-13].
16:33:35 <smiles> Luc: Can discuss at next telecon
16:33:37 <Luc> q?
16:33:56 <smiles> pgroth: Would be good to get this settled so we can get on with improving the namespace page
16:34:11 <Luc> ack pg
16:34:12 <stain> q+
16:34:37 <smiles> stain: Last week Tim raised some concerns about same namespaces in OWL and XML
16:34:52 <Luc> ack st
16:35:09 <Luc> q?
16:35:17 <smiles> tlebo: Haven't yet considered, will do for next week
16:35:46 <smiles> Luc: Thanks Stian for work, we will now digest
16:35:50 <stain> .. specially if we need to leave hooks in the core.xsd
16:36:12 <smiles> ... Request that current set of issues on XML should be addressed by next release: early February
16:36:16 <ivan> q+
16:36:17 <Luc> q?
16:36:50 <stain> and are there any overlaps with elements and predicates?
16:36:52 <Luc> ack iv
16:36:53 <smiles> ivan: Just checked: OWL 2 has an XML serialisation and uses same namespace as the RDF ontology
16:37:08 <Luc> q?
16:37:13 <tlebo> Thanks, @ivan
16:37:19 <Luc> topic:prov-aq
16:38:02 <smiles> GK: <alien sounds>
16:38:14 <GK> Ity seedms my outgoping audiop is poor
16:38:25 <GK> I'm on an ADSL line, so maybe bandwidth starved
16:38:35 <Luc> ... alien text too ;-)
16:38:47 <pgroth> I can do it
16:38:54 <pgroth> and correct me if I'm wrong
16:38:57 <GK> I have some notes I can paste in:\
16:39:05 <GK> PROV-AQ - draft at:
16:39:05 <GK> 
16:39:05 <GK> Has been updated:
16:39:05 <GK>     Change 'provenance information' to 'provenance description' (ISSUE 601); extensive editorial changes should be reviewed
16:39:05 <GK>     Add note about service description and LDP consideration thereof
16:39:05 <GK>     Add non-commital paragraph about accessing provenance bundles
16:39:05 <GK>     Update forward provenance (pingback) in response to comments; fix text around VoID example
16:39:06 <GK>     Added specification for pingback link header (ISSUE 600)
16:39:06 <GK>     Expanded discussion of provenance service discovery to include prov:hasProvenanceService
16:39:06 <GK>     Remove speculative non-specification text to be covered in FAQ (ISSUES 426, 598)
16:39:07 <GK>     Added section with table of URIs and what they dereference to (ISSUE 424)
16:39:07 <GK>     Make treatment of direct retrieval and service for provenance access more equally visible (ISSUE 422)
16:39:07 <GK>     Point out that provenance services can accept paraneters other than just 'target' (ISSUE 420)
16:39:08 <GK>     Added definitions for accessung and locating (ISSUE 417)
16:39:08 <GK>     Added section on Link: headers and content negotiation (ISSUE 416)
16:39:08 <GK>     Added icon to distibguish external links (ISSUE 400)
16:39:09 <GK>     Updsate and cross-link table of prov: URIs defined
16:39:09 <GK>     Changed link relations to URIs; removed IANA considerations section
16:39:09 <GK>     Hyperlink concept definitions to themselves (per request from Tim 2012-06-05)
16:39:09 <GK>     Update security considerations with note about use of provenance as part of audit/enforcement mechanism
16:39:09 <GK>     Update list of PROV documents, copied from PROV-DM
16:39:09 <GK>     Cut back on verbiage in sect 3,4 rbitrary data
16:39:10 <GK>     Revised section 3 descriptions in terms of prodcuers and consumers
16:39:10 <GK>     Updated security considerations to mention audit
16:39:10 <GK>     Add TODO for producer/consumer roles, add note about multiple links, add reference to RFC3986 for %-escaping
16:39:11 <GK>     Update security considerations, note about non-RDF service desription, PROV-O link, acknowledgements
16:39:17 <GK> The aboce is from the HG log
16:39:22 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
16:39:34 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (47%), ivan (61%), Luc (9%), GK (97%)
16:39:36 <MacTed> Zakim, mute gk
16:39:36 <Zakim> GK should now be muted
16:39:50 <stain> intergalactic issue
16:39:54 <GK> So where we are:
16:39:55 <GK> - Most issues have been addressed, pending review
16:39:56 <smiles> pgroth: Gone through all the issues, and GK has been addressing them (see changes above)
16:39:56 <GK> -
16:39:56 <GK> - Have review comments from Jun to fold in
16:39:56 <GK> - update of OWL document [fragment] is still to do.
16:39:56 <GK> - still need to review for use of RFC2119 language (even though non-REC, is still a spec)
16:39:56 <GK> 
16:40:14 <smiles> pgroth: Still more to do, but should be done by next week (GK?)
16:40:18 <GK> Most;y, buy some outstandinmg issues
16:40:28 <GK> Recent issues:
16:40:28 <GK> - SPARQL endpoint discovery
16:40:28 <GK> - raised issue with LDP about service description format (  I p[ropose to stiock for now with RDF, as that avoids defining yet another data format, and maybe update later to follow LDP recommendations
16:40:28 <GK> -- issue of RDF having multiple MIME types (cf. email from Eric Wilde aka @dret)
16:40:44 <smiles> pgroth: After that, need to read over
16:41:14 <smiles> Luc: Group will not see doc before Christmas?
16:41:23 <GK> I think there are issues that can be revioewed; e.g. forward provenance
16:41:30 <smiles> pgroth: Yes, there seems no point in doing so, as will not be able to give proper attention
16:41:51 <GK> There';s some discussion about how to handle SPARQL endpoint discovery
16:41:52 <pgroth> yeah, first - second week of january
16:41:59 <smiles> Luc: Early Jan, should have internal review of document
16:42:06 <Luc> q?
16:42:12 <GK> q+ to say there are a couple of specific issues to discuss
16:42:21 <pgroth> will this work...
16:42:26 <Luc> ack gk
16:42:27 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say there are a couple of specific issues to discuss
16:42:35 <pgroth> no
16:42:43 <GK> I'
16:42:45 <stain> it was good as you said "hang on"
16:42:54 <stain> perhaps GK really IS in a different galaxy..!
16:42:56 <GK> 1. SP{ARQL endpoint discovery - I propose a new link relation
16:43:07 <GK> 2. service descrtiption format
16:43:20 <GK> 3. pingback; aka "forward provenance"
16:43:32 <GK> These are issuyes where there are substantial changes/new material
16:43:36 <pgroth> sounds good
16:43:45 <smiles> Luc: Use mailing list to point out issues to discuss (as GK lists above)
16:43:49 <pgroth> perfect
16:43:54 <GK> Acxk.  Siounds good.
16:44:09 <GK> Ack.
16:44:12 <Luc> q?
16:44:18 <Luc> topic: prov-sem
16:44:19 <pgroth> thanks graham
16:44:21 <pgroth> !
16:44:27 <Luc>
16:44:52 <Luc>
16:45:02 <smiles> Luc: Had apologies from James, but sent brief update: has been converting the rules into LaTeX/HTML
16:45:55 <Luc> q?
16:45:57 <smiles> ... He asks for (1) people to go through document and check for typos in converting rules, (2) people to help convert into W3C Note style
16:46:51 <smiles> ivan: Could contact staff contact in MathML group, as they may have experience in publishing formal notation/maths
16:47:05 <smiles> ... Can forward James' mail
16:47:41 <Luc> q?
16:48:00 <smiles> Luc: Anyone else willing to go through the document? Tom?
16:48:09 <TomDN> yes
16:48:11 <Luc> tom?
16:48:21 <pgroth> q+
16:48:39 <GK> I'll look if I have time
16:48:48 <smiles> pgroth: Is it at a state where we would want to show it to others?
16:48:52 <smiles> Luc: No I don't think so
16:48:56 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:49:10 <Luc> q?
16:49:13 <TomDN> I can take a look at it as reviewer, but cannot actively help with writing
16:49:19 <Luc> topic: prov-dictionary
16:49:19 <smiles> Luc: Not formal review yet, see James' mail for what to check
16:49:24 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me
16:49:24 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
16:49:52 <pgroth> is that too late?
16:49:54 <smiles> TomDN: Schedule will be as said last week, next version out by next Thursday for internal review
16:50:20 <Luc> q?
16:50:23 <smiles> Luc: Timing fine for FPWD with proposed recommendations
16:50:40 <Luc> q?
16:50:44 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
16:50:44 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
16:50:52 <smiles> Luc: AOB?
16:51:00 <tlebo> thanks, bye!
16:51:02 <smiles> thanks
16:51:03 <TomDN> bye
16:51:04 <khalidBelhajjame> bye
16:51:04 <pgroth> sure
16:51:10 <Zakim> -TomDN
16:51:10 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov
16:51:11 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:51:12 <Zakim> -khalidBelhajjame
16:51:12 <Dong> bye
16:51:14 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:51:15 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:51:15 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
16:51:18 <GK> Yay!  +10 mins
16:51:18 <jun> bye
16:51:19 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:51:20 <GK> Bye
16:51:22 <Zakim> -??P30
16:51:24 <Zakim> -smiles
16:51:25 <Zakim> -jun
16:51:26 <Zakim> -Luc
16:51:30 <Zakim> - +44.789.470.aacc
16:51:33 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
16:51:40 <Zakim> -GK
16:51:42 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon
16:51:42 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:51:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, ivan, Luc, smiles, +1.315.941.aabb, tlebo, jun, MacTed, stain, GK, [IPcaller], +44.789.470.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN,
16:51:43 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:51:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate Luc
16:51:45 <Zakim> ... khalidBelhajjame, SamCoppens, Satya_Sahoo
16:51:48 <ivan> zakim, drop me
16:51:48 <Zakim> ivan is being disconnected
16:51:49 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:51:49 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, ivan, Luc, smiles, +1.315.941.aabb, tlebo, jun, MacTed, stain, GK, [IPcaller], +44.789.470.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN, khalidBelhajjame, SamCoppens,
16:51:49 <Zakim> ... Satya_Sahoo
16:51:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:51:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:51:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:51:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items