Chatlog 2012-02-09

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15:42:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:42:12 <RRSAgent> logging to
<luc>Regrets: Paul Groth
15:42:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:42:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:42:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:42:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:42:17 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:42:17 <trackbot> Date: 09 February 2012
15:42:18 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
15:42:18 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
15:42:31 <Luc> Agenda:
15:42:34 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
15:42:47 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
15:42:51 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 
15:42:51 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, Luc
15:42:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, Stian, trackbot, sandro
15:54:21 <Luc> q?
15:55:24 <Luc> q?
15:57:45 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
15:58:17 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:58:24 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
15:59:17 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa
15:59:19 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:59:27 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:59:35 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
15:59:44 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
15:59:50 <davidschaengold> davidschaengold has joined #prov
16:00:25 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb
16:00:28 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
16:00:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:32 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
16:00:32 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb
16:00:34 <Luc> Hi, we still need a scribe ....
16:00:39 <tlebo> I'll scribe
16:00:40 <Zakim> + +1.646.389.aacc
16:00:48 <Luc> thanks tim, everything is setup for you
16:00:51 <davidschaengold> Zakim, aacc is me
16:00:55 <tlebo> yup, thanks.
16:00:56 <Luc> scribe: TLebo
16:01:00 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
16:01:18 <Zakim> +davidschaengold; got it
16:01:21 <christine> christine has joined #prov
16:01:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:02:06 <estephan> estephan has joined #prov
16:02:23 <Zakim> + +1.509.967.aadd
16:02:58 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:03:15 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
16:03:27 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
16:03:46 <tlebo> topic: admin
#16:03:46 <tlebo> subtopic: approve minutes
16:03:59 <tlebo> luc: paul hasn't finished the long minutes, we'll do next week.
16:04:02 <Luc>
#16:04:03 <tlebo> topic: actions
<luc>Summary: We spent a long time reviewing actions, including those created during F2F2.  Of concern is Action-52 to Satya, who assured us he will complete it this week.   Luc will enquire about ACTION-54 assigned to Paul. All the others have been kickstarted (and some completed as per schedule).
16:04:30 <tlebo> action 51
16:04:30 <trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
16:04:32 <Luc>
16:04:53 <tlebo> luc finished the blog on action 51; closed.
16:05:03 <Zakim> +??P77
16:05:13 <Zakim> +??P80
16:05:16 <tlebo> action 52 on satya - continue DM issues.
16:05:16 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 52
16:05:17 <Zakim> +??P81
16:05:41 <tlebo> satya: can be folded into the due date next thursday.
16:05:44 <MacTed> action-52?
16:05:44 <trackbot> ACTION-52 -- Satya Sahoo to address issues in -- due 2012-01-19 -- OPEN
16:05:44 <trackbot>
16:05:51 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:06:00 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:06:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:06:23 <tlebo> luc: luc and paolo have asked questions that satya has not answered. please respond.
16:06:44 <tlebo> luc: we will be trying to close actions much faster.
16:06:50 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:06:52 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:07:12 <tlebo> satya: today or tomorrow will respond
16:07:16 <Luc>
16:07:19 <jcheney> zakim, ??P77 is me
16:07:28 <tlebo> action 53 to Kai - bootstrapping dc best practices.
16:07:28 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 53
16:07:39 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
16:08:31 <tlebo> dgarijo: kai has been working on it, has been getting good responses from other users groups. they seem happy.
16:08:50 <tlebo> luc: will the activity be seen by prov-wg?
16:09:00 <Zakim> +[ISI]
16:09:06 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:09:07 <tlebo> dgarijo: mostly on the dc side, kai will come back and report.
16:09:18 <tlebo> dgarijo: eric is hosting a call next monday
16:09:33 <tlebo> dgarijo is on dc call
16:09:35 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov
16:09:42 <tlebo> luc: how to monitor progress?
16:09:58 <tlebo> dgarijo: still getting started.
16:10:20 <tlebo> luc: action is completed because activity is bootstrapped. please report back regularlly.
16:10:33 <Luc> q?
16:11:10 <Luc>
16:11:11 <MacTed> action-54?
16:11:11 <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Paul Groth to engage implementation task force to begin developing of a test harness around examples (from tim or others) -- due 2012-02-10 -- OPEN
16:11:11 <trackbot>
16:11:17 <tlebo> next action is #54 on paolo. Engaging implemenation task force for a test harness 
16:11:32 <tlebo> luc: helena or stephen?
16:11:47 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:11:52 <tlebo> s/paolo/paul/
16:12:03 <Luc>
16:12:04 <Helena> Helena has joined #prov
16:12:26 <tlebo> next action was #55 on mike. make an owl file for next week.
16:12:31 <dgarijo> +q
16:12:58 <Luc> ack dg
16:13:10 <tlebo> dgarijo: khalid and daniel have made a list of terms to agree on and give rules for. (and a list of those we won't)
16:13:24 <tlebo> ( )
16:13:25 <satya>
16:13:49 <tlebo> luc: timing - next telecon due. on track to meet?
16:13:52 <Zakim> +??P20
16:13:52 <tlebo> dgarijo: yes
16:13:57 <tlebo> (+1)
16:14:00 <Luc>
16:14:16 <tlebo> next is action 56 to james update rdf rules and align with dm.
16:14:47 <tlebo> jcheney: coupled with previous issue. using ProvRDF to keep track of DM and ont.
16:15:02 <dgarijo> I forgot to say that Tim also worked on the list initiated by James.
16:15:17 <tlebo> jcheney: daniel, khalid, satya, tim have been working around the doc.
16:15:25 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
16:15:30 <tlebo> jcheney: planning to fill in early next week
16:15:35 <tlebo> q+
16:16:05 <dgarijo> tlebo: clarification about the rules James is talking about.
16:16:23 <dgarijo> jcheney: the rules in the provRDF file.
16:16:31 <khalidbelhajjame> Translation rules
16:17:02 <Luc>
16:17:04 <dgarijo> tlebo: the plan is to have completed the left side part of the list
16:17:05 <tlebo> (anyone is welcome to help me fill in the left-hand sides from DM - this needs to be done by Friday)
16:17:30 <tlebo> luc: paq, paul, graham. #57 due end of month. we'll leave it
16:17:31 <Luc>
16:17:37 <Luc>
16:17:56 <dgarijo> @tlebo: I though that that was what Khalid and I did with the lists :)
16:17:58 <tlebo> luc: action 58 to paul. he wrote summary of f2f.
16:18:07 <Luc>  
16:18:09 <tlebo> @daniel, nope, as I said in email.
16:18:23 <GK_> GK_ has joined #prov
16:18:23 <tlebo> luc: closing 58
16:18:37 <GK_> Oops, sorry I'm late.  Connecting now.
16:19:01 <Luc>
16:19:41 <tlebo> luc: 60 on luc, xml schema. he sent email to list. some responses. james' approach similar?
16:19:47 <dgarijo> @tlebo: ok.
16:19:51 <tlebo> jcheney: was using attributes, but can change to elemetns.
16:20:02 <tlebo> luc: stephen, tim is interested
16:20:07 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:20:07 <tlebo> (+1)
16:20:11 <Zakim> +??P0
16:20:13 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:20:13 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:20:15 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:20:15 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:20:29 <GK_> zakim, ??p0 is me
16:20:29 <Zakim> +GK_; got it
16:20:55 <tlebo> tim: will look through it, not sure what he'll do with it.
16:21:11 <tlebo> luc: aim for an agreement in two weeks time?
16:21:28 <satya> tlebo: yes
16:21:42 <Luc>
16:21:55 <tlebo> luc: 61 on james update semantics to suit DM WD3
16:22:27 <tlebo> jcheney: provrdf an mappings are part of it and due ealier. so focusing on that.
16:22:30 <Luc>
16:22:45 <tlebo> luc: 62 on luc to simplify intro do DM
16:22:55 <tlebo> luc: will report later in agenda.
16:23:17 <Luc> q?
16:23:23 <tlebo> q-
16:23:49 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
16:24:22 <tlebo> luc: next face to face... coordinate with semweb activity.... mroe next week.
16:24:38 <Luc> q?
16:24:42 <tlebo> luc: other issues?
16:24:56 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
16:41:38 <tlebo> topic: prov-o
<luc>Summary: We discussed progress on the ontology alignment and the use of James rules for systematically mapping prov-dm constructs to the ontology. The team is on track to release the ontology at the next teleconference.  Satya agreed to produce an outline of the structure of the new prov-o document, taking into account best practice in the semantic web community. Reviewers of the prov-o ontology were lined up: Luc, Paolo, EricS, StephenC (TBC). Any other reviewer welcome! They will be asked to review the ontology when available.
16:25:01 <Luc> can we see this list of term?
16:25:10 <tlebo> satya: reviewing wd3, have terms to map, nothing else to report. Mike finished blog post.
16:25:20 <tlebo> satya: simple exmaple of how to use prov-o. sent update yesterday 
16:25:21 <Luc> can we see the blog post example?
16:25:26 <tlebo> (I didn't see update)
16:25:42 <tlebo> (ok)
16:25:51 <tlebo> satya: blog post coming outt
16:26:01 <dgarijo>
16:26:03 <tlebo>
16:26:10 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
16:26:18 <Luc> q?
16:26:35 <tlebo> q+ to note that I think a different format would be better, will try to address on email and skype.
16:26:36 <dgarijo> although that list has to be merged with Khalid's
16:26:41 <tlebo> luc: wasAssociatedWith - why not?
16:26:50 <tlebo> luc: quite important.
16:27:14 <Luc> q?
16:27:17 <Luc> ack tle
16:27:17 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to note that I think a different format would be better, will try to address on email and skype.
16:28:05 <tlebo> q-
16:28:26 <tlebo> luc: good to see that we can be systematic in translation.
16:28:35 <tlebo> luc: issues in DM?
16:29:27 <Zakim> +??P25
16:29:39 <satya> @GK: yes, it is a discussion board
16:29:50 <Mike> Mike has joined #prov
16:30:09 <tlebo> luc: would be good for dm and provo teams to discuss
16:30:16 <Zakim> + +1.443.708.aaee
16:30:27 <tlebo> tlebo: we can do that after the owl file and mapping page
16:30:33 <tlebo> luc: we need the HTML, too.
16:30:47 <Luc> q?
16:30:53 <jcheney> @GK: Tim's point I think is that the wiki page should be DM-centric in order to aid producing the deliverable(s)
16:30:54 <tlebo> luc: we need a doc that semweb community will look at after the primer.
16:31:20 <khalidbelhajjame> We also need to thing about the structure of the document
16:31:23 <khalidbelhajjame> think
16:31:32 <tlebo> satya: having concensus on owl file will aid HTML writing.
16:31:45 <tlebo> luc: but thought on how to structure doc before hand.
16:31:56 <tlebo> (I think we agreed to get rid of this laundry list approach in the HTML)
16:32:09 <dgarijo> @khalid : +1.
16:32:47 <tlebo> luc: ivan's feedback after f2f. many ontologies that were well presented. OPMV, FOAF, (not enough examples in foaf html)
16:33:02 <tlebo> luc: good to think about how the HTML will be structured.
16:33:05 <Luc> q?
16:33:32 <GK_> (I've an idea that some of the FOAF/OPMV content is auto-generated from the OWN description)
16:33:45 <tlebo> luc: DMers shouldn't impose the provo html structure.
16:34:09 <tlebo> luc: action on structure of provo doc?
16:34:28 <tlebo> satya: will take action on structure of prov-o html
16:34:53 <tlebo> action: satya to design structure of provo-html
16:34:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Design structure of provo-html [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-02-16].
16:35:01 <Luc> action to satya to outline the new structure of the prov-o document, to be discussed on 23
16:35:01 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
16:35:29 <tlebo> luc: ivan suggested that it is usful to line up reviewers of the draft.
16:35:30 <GK_> @luc: that action got created with 16-feb due date, not 23rd
16:35:46 <tlebo> luc: need reviewers to provo html 
16:35:51 <tlebo> luc: volunteers?
16:36:00 <Luc> q?
16:36:12 <estephan> I will review
16:36:18 <tlebo> satya: think it would be helpful to have DMers review, too.
16:36:36 <tlebo> luc: volunteers?
16:36:56 <tlebo> luc: zednick?
16:36:58 <GK_> (I probably shall review it, but I'm reluctant to make formal commitment at this time, until it's actually available.)
16:37:13 <tlebo> @etephan said he would, too
16:37:21 <tlebo> luc: simon?
16:37:34 <zednik> I am willing to review prov-o
16:37:36 <satya> perhaps both Simon and Yolanda?
16:37:38 <estephan> +1
16:37:44 <tlebo> smiles: sure, from pov of primer
16:38:17 <zednik> too many stephans ;-)
16:38:23 <tlebo> (too many "steph*n"s)
16:39:08 <davidschaengold> I'll volunteer as well to review it
16:39:21 <satya> @Stephan: you are co-author :)
16:39:35 <estephan> +q
16:39:50 <GK_> (What I'd like to do is review the ontology side-by-side with the *simplified* DM)
16:39:51 <tlebo> core dump
16:39:59 <Luc> ack es
16:40:11 <tlebo> luc, paolo, eric stephen, cresswell, perhaps GK
16:40:31 <tlebo> estephan: hwo to give feedback?
16:41:07 <tlebo> luc: we need to know someone looked at it.
16:41:18 <satya> @Eric: raise issues?
16:41:21 <Luc> q?
16:41:38 <tlebo> topic: prov-dm
<Luc>Summary: Luc explained how the prov-dm editors were  working on their working copy. They are in the process of dividing the prov-dm document into three parts: lightweight intro to prov-dm, upgrade path to proper provenance, prov-asn syntax.  Initial working drafts for part 1 and 3 are in mercurial. The intent is to have all parts available by next teleconference.  We lined up some reviewers for these documents: TimL,  EricS, GK, Daniel (tentative), MacTed(tentative), Curt(tentative). Any other reviewer welcome! They will be asked to review these documents when available.
16:41:57 <Luc>
16:42:12 <tlebo> luc: wiki page on current activities
16:42:20 <tlebo> luc: trying to adderss action 62 - simplify
16:42:41 <tlebo> luc: created new directory in hg
16:42:53 <Luc>
16:43:04 <tlebo> luc: welcome to look, but still in progress.
16:43:11 <tlebo> luc: decided to structure into 3 parts
16:43:45 <tlebo> luc: part 1: model based on no "Thing"
16:44:07 <tlebo> luc: part 1: support scruffy prov (so no attributes, charact intervals, constraints)
16:44:11 <tlebo> luc: all moved out of doc
16:44:20 <tlebo> luc: dropped Account Record.
16:44:27 <GK_> q+ to ask if the first part will be anything more than a summary of the ASN expression types
16:44:42 <Luc>
16:44:51 <tlebo> luc: part 3: ASN and grammar
16:45:06 <tlebo> luc: part 2: "upgrade path"
16:45:15 <tlebo> (from scruffy to proper prov)
16:45:32 <GK_> Would prefer to see it described as a "refinement path" rather than "upgrade"
16:45:36 <Luc> q?
16:45:38 <tlebo> luc: first version of this draft by next telecon
16:46:11 <dgarijo> yesterday on the DC call, Thom Baker said that he really liked the distinction between scruffy/proper provenance.
16:46:14 <tlebo> gk: part 1 any mor than summary of expression types?
16:46:20 <tlebo> gk: want it that simple.
16:46:20 <Luc>
16:46:34 <Luc> q?
16:47:03 <tlebo> luc: tried to provide intuitive def for all concepts with examples in english
16:47:43 <Luc> q?
16:47:44 <tlebo> luc: list of terms an dtheir componetns with illustration
16:47:49 <Luc> ack GK
16:47:49 <Zakim> GK_, you wanted to ask if the first part will be anything more than a summary of the ASN expression types
16:48:15 <tlebo> gk: looks closer to waht group was asked to do.
16:48:45 <tlebo> luc: happy with anyone to look at and comment on (do not raise issues)
16:49:06 <tlebo> luc: if have commetns, write notes on page and send email notifying
16:49:30 <Luc> q?
16:49:40 <tlebo> luc: comments?
16:49:46 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:49:46 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:49:46 <GK_> I'll probably hold off detailed review untilk that 1st draft is available for co9mment
16:50:03 <tlebo> macted: which URLs are which part of breakout
16:50:14 <Luc> part 1:
16:50:26 <Luc> part 3:
16:50:52 <tlebo> luc: will add link to wiki page
16:50:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:50:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:51:07 <tlebo> luc: would like reviewers of docs for next week
16:51:23 <Luc> q?
16:51:23 <tlebo> +1
16:51:25 <estephan> +1 (Eric Stephan)
16:51:27 <GK_> I intend to review
16:51:44 <dgarijo> I'll try too 
16:51:55 <Curt> I'll try 
16:52:33 <tlebo> topic: coordinate a release prov-dm,  prov-o and prov-primer
<Luc>Summary: We discussed a joint release of the next set of working drafts for prov-dm, prov-o, prov-primer.  It was agreed that concepts in prov-dm were stable (though presentation was being worked on).  Satya believes that the prov-o html document can be ready two weeks after the ontology has been agreed on. Simon felt the primer could be updated with the new ontology terms, shortly after the ontology has been frozen.
16:52:54 <tlebo> reading list: primer, prov-o, dm
16:53:09 <tlebo> luc: comments on joint release
16:53:10 <tlebo> ?
16:53:16 <Luc> q?
16:53:17 <smiles> q+
16:53:40 <Luc> ack smiles
16:53:59 <tlebo> smiles: from f2f, we have a schedule. prov-o owl next week and html week after.
16:54:05 <tlebo> ... primer 8 march.
16:54:27 <tlebo> ... then 1-2 weeks from that (20 march)
16:54:36 <tlebo> luc: we've slipped by 1 month
16:54:57 <tlebo> luc: timetable discussed at f2f
16:55:06 <tlebo> ... 4th draft 1 march
16:55:13 <tlebo> ... 5th draft 1 apri.l
16:55:30 <tlebo> ... release of all 1 april?
16:55:55 <tlebo> ... concerned.
16:56:00 <Luc> q?
16:56:00 <tlebo> ... all docs earlier?
16:57:02 <tlebo> satya: last feb first march
16:57:05 <GK_> I personally think we need to get the simplified DM nailed and stabilized (in broad principle) before charging too fast with the other docs.
16:57:14 <tlebo> (I think first week march would be reasonable)
16:57:23 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:57:33 <satya> @GK: I agree
16:58:01 <Luc> q?
16:58:12 <tlebo> smiles: if we agree on the owl, primer by end of feb. but what if there are concerns on the owl?
16:58:30 <dgarijo> I don't think that the primer is going to change a lot..
16:58:48 <tlebo> gk_: really helpful if broad DM stable before pushing on other docs.
16:59:24 <smiles> @dgarijo yes, I hope you're right :)
16:59:33 <tlebo> luc: provo due fairly soon
16:59:47 <tlebo> satya: agree that we need DM stable.
17:00:10 <tlebo> q+ to point out that the concepts aren't changing in DM. so it's "stable"
17:00:41 <smiles> Apologies, but I will have to leave in a minute...
17:01:01 <tlebo> luc: we need to close issues.
17:01:11 <GK_> I'm fine that there may be outstanding issues (near term); but the DM sets a general direction that we're all trying to follow
17:01:22 <Luc> ack tle
17:01:22 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to point out that the concepts aren't changing in DM. so it's "stable"
17:01:53 <Luc> q?
17:01:57 <dgarijo> @tlebo:+1
17:02:13 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:02:18 <tlebo> topic: connection task force
<luc>Summary: Kai, Eric, and Christine will hold a call on Monday, resuming the activities of the connection task force. If you are interested, contact them to join the call.
17:02:38 <tlebo> estephan: kai did report on plans from f2f2. dc mapping. great effort.
17:02:50 <khalidbelhajjame> Sorry, I will have to leave as I have another meeting
17:02:53 <tlebo> ... while that continues, we should meet as a task force periodically.
17:03:03 <YolandaGil> @Simon: there were a few minor things we wanted to update on the planner, we can discuss them when we meet at the end of the month.
17:03:11 <tlebo> ... most on task force have connections and would be good to keep the report alive.
17:03:15 <Zakim> -??P80
17:03:35 <Luc> q?
17:03:45 <estephan> +q
17:03:57 <Luc> ack e
17:04:14 <tlebo> estephan: monday call details on email
17:04:20 <YolandaGil> I'll be joining the conn TF call
17:04:23 <tlebo> luc: that's it. meet next week.
17:04:24 <Zakim> -davidschaengold
17:04:25 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
17:04:26 <Zakim> -??P81
17:04:27 <GK_> Bye 
17:04:27 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aaee
17:04:27 <Zakim> - +1.509.967.aadd
17:04:27 <Zakim> -jcheney
17:04:29 <Zakim> -[ISI]
17:04:29 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:04:31 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:04:33 <estephan> estephan has left #prov
17:04:33 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
17:04:35 <Zakim> -tlebo
17:04:39 <Zakim> -Luc
17:04:51 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 
17:04:53 <Zakim> -GK_
17:04:55 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 
17:04:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate Luc
17:04:59 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 
17:04:59 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to for help
17:05:00 <Zakim> -??P25
17:05:16 <Zakim> -??P20
17:05:18 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
17:05:18 <Zakim> Attendees were Curt_Tilmes, Luc, +1.315.330.aabb, Satya_Sahoo, [IPcaller], +1.646.389.aacc, tlebo, davidschaengold, +1.509.967.aadd, MacTed, jcheney, [ISI], Sandro, GK_,
17:05:18 <Zakim> ... +1.443.708.aaee