From Provenance WG Wiki
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15:38:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 15:38:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-prov-irc 15:38:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:38:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 15:38:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 15:38:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 15:38:21 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:38:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:38:22 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2012 15:38:22 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes 15:38:36 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov 15:38:38 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05 15:39:00 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau 15:39:02 <Luc> Scribe: GK 15:39:20 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 15:50:26 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 15:53:38 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 15:53:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:54:01 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:54:01 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 15:55:28 <Zakim> +??P56 15:55:55 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov 15:55:59 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa 15:56:12 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me 15:56:12 <Zakim> +Luc; got it 15:56:17 <GK> GK has joined #prov 15:56:23 <Zakim> +??P58 15:56:35 <Paolo> zakim, ??P58 is me 15:56:35 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it 15:57:00 <Luc> Regrets: Stain 15:57:57 <Zakim> +??P7 15:58:17 <GK> zakim, ??p7 is me 15:58:19 <Zakim> +GK; got it 15:58:46 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 15:59:01 <Luc> scribe: GK 16:00:48 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov 16:01:41 <Luc> topic: Admin <Luc>Summary: Minutes of the last teleconference were approved. Please volunteer for scribing! 16:02:22 <Zakim> +??P9 16:02:23 <GK> Previous minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-22 16:02:28 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 16:02:30 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P9 is me 16:02:33 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:02:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 16:02:38 <Zakim> +??P11 16:02:39 <JimMcCusker> JimMcCusker has joined #prov 16:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb 16:02:50 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 16:02:52 <Zakim> +sandro 16:02:56 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it 16:02:58 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 16:03:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:03:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 16:03:02 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 16:03:09 <Luc> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon 16:03:19 <GK> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-22 16:03:20 <Zakim> +??P29 16:03:28 <Paolo> +1 16:03:32 <tlebo> +1 16:03:32 <dgarijo> +1 16:03:33 <GK> +0 (not present) 16:03:36 <smiles> 0 (absent) 16:04:00 <JimMcCusker> 0 ( absent) 16:04:13 <Luc> APPROVED the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon 16:04:17 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 16:04:30 <Zakim> +??P33 16:04:37 <jcheney> zakim, ??p33 is me 16:04:37 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it 16:04:41 <GK> Topic: Disseminating Working Drafts <luc> Summary: We discussed ways of advertising and disseminating our working drafts. Paul will draft a blog overviewing all prov-wg documents. Luc will draft a blog explaining changes in prov-dm. Everybody is invited to share documents within their respective communities. The public-prov mailing list will be used for announcement, and the newly created public-prov-dev mailing list will focus on development issues. 16:05:22 <Luc> q? 16:05:28 <pgroth> q+ 16:05:45 <Luc> ack pgr 16:06:10 <GK> PaulG: suggest writing up blog post describing how documents sit together... 16:06:34 <smiles> q+ 16:06:48 <Luc> ack smi 16:06:49 <GK> Luc: This could be used as initial draft for document of WG deliverables 16:06:53 <Zakim> +Yolanda 16:06:59 <Zakim> +??P40 16:07:14 <GK> SimonM: useful for linking to when posting to other mailing lists to solicit feedback. 16:07:41 <GK> ... also useful would be standard few lines that can be referenced. 16:07:56 <GK> ... and direct readers to blog post. 16:08:02 <Luc> q? 16:08:11 <GK> PaulG: will write this as abstract to blog. 16:08:24 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 16:08:29 <Luc> action: pgroth to write blog overviewing prov-wg documents 16:08:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Write blog overviewing prov-wg documents [on Paul Groth - due 2012-01-12]. 16:08:51 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aacc 16:09:08 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone? 16:09:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P56, Luc, Paolo, GK, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed (muted), ??P11, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, [IPcaller], ??P29, jcheney, Yolanda, ??P40, +1.518.633.aacc 16:09:17 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb 16:09:17 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 16:09:39 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 16:09:39 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 16:09:44 <GK> Luc: description of difference between 1st and 3rd PROV-DM drafts would be helpful, maybe? 16:10:00 <Luc> action: Luc to write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1 16:10:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1 [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-01-12]. 16:10:05 <GK> PaulG: suggest Paul does overview, and Luc does difference sum,mary later 16:10:21 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov 16:10:26 <GK> Luc: Has connection TF lined up reviewers? 16:10:32 <JimMcCusker> +q 16:10:40 <Luc> ack Jim 16:11:01 <GK> JimMc: Either Satya or I should engaged OBO(?) community 16:11:11 <Paolo> q+ 16:11:21 <Luc> ack paolo 16:11:24 <GK> ... OBO = Open Bio Ontologies 16:11:45 <GK> Paolo: meeting on provenance ... (missed details) 16:11:51 <JimMcCusker> http://obofoundry.org/ 16:11:56 <tlebo> @paolo, what meeting? 16:12:06 <satya> satya has joined #prov 16:12:25 <GK> meeting is Dagshtul seminar at end february 16:12:50 <pgroth> I thought I replied james? 16:12:56 <pgroth> anyway, offline :-) 16:13:03 <Luc> you did, and I did too ;-) 16:13:18 <pgroth> +q 16:13:19 <GK> jcheney: still planning schedule for meeting. 16:13:51 <GK> Luc: I was focusing on dissemination in short term - next couple of weeks. 16:14:11 <pgroth> +1 16:14:22 <Paolo> Q? 16:14:34 <GK> Luc: can we repeat blog exercise similar to Paul's simple example? Any takers? 16:14:53 <Luc> q? 16:14:57 <GK> ... more small examples to promote use and purpose of prov-o 16:15:11 <Luc> q? 16:15:23 <Luc> ack pg 16:15:50 <GK> PaulG: we have public provenance mailing list - can we get more people to subscribe? 16:15:55 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aadd 16:16:05 <tlebo> q+ to ask if we should/can make an announce list? 16:16:24 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aadd 16:16:29 <pgroth> that's this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/ 16:16:55 <GK> Tim: can we have an announcement list 16:17:10 <GK> ??: agree, and also a developers list? 16:17:28 <tlebo> zednik ^^ 16:18:40 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaee 16:18:56 <GK> Sandro: have WG, public and dev as common pattern (?). Sometimes, dev list is pretty much unused. 16:19:36 <sandro> checking ---- email@example.com exists. (and prov-wg and prog-comments) 16:19:36 <dgarijo> +1 to that, although we started already with the best practices.. 16:19:48 <GK> Luc: back to asking the prov-o team about blogging examples 16:20:59 <GK> GK: blogs also work as web pages which are easily linked to, tweeted, etc. 16:21:03 <satya> Paul, +1 16:21:26 <GK> Luc: asks sandro if we can create an announce mailing list 16:21:55 <GK> Sandro: we can, but recommend against unless other public list gets too busy. 16:22:11 <pgroth> +q 16:22:31 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:22:49 <tlebo> +1 public-prov 16:22:49 <GK> Sandro: public-prov (not public-prov-wg) could be used for announcements 16:22:58 <tlebo> (didn't realize we dump onto public-prov-wg) 16:23:12 <GK> Luc: can we also have a developer mailing list? 16:24:07 <satya> q+ 16:24:19 <GK> Sandro: I'll create a dev list very soon 16:24:24 <tlebo> I'll consider blogging 16:24:27 <Luc> ack tle 16:24:27 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask if we should/can make an announce list? 16:24:28 <tlebo> q- 16:24:35 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaee 16:24:46 <GK> tlebo: I'll consider blogging, would prefer to focus on documents 16:24:52 <Luc> ack sat 16:24:59 <sandro> q+ 16:25:33 <JimMcCusker> +q 16:25:36 <satya> sorry lost audio 16:26:05 <Luc> ack san 16:26:24 <GK> sandro: public-prov-dev, anyone can post, or only subscribers? 16:26:35 <Luc> ack jim 16:26:44 <GK> GK: if spam not a problem, suggest open 16:27:09 <GK> Sandro: I'll make it open. List now exists. 16:27:13 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-dev/ created 16:27:19 <dgarijo> so I guess this is the list where we'll move our prov-o discussions. 16:27:32 <GK> Topic: Plan for Second Working Drafts (continued) <luc>Summary: The editors of the prov-primer and prov-o documents discussed their plan for future working drafts. It was agreed that F2F2 is a good target to aim at, to release new versions of the documents synchronized with the current state of prov-dm. 16:28:31 <GK> SimonM: primer - 1st PWD should be out soon. Hopefully next week. 16:28:44 <GK> ... need to ensure compatibility with other documents. 16:29:02 <GK> ... aim to have improved version by F2F meeting 16:29:22 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaff 16:29:34 <GK> ... longer term, next release 6 months with everything up to date, and better content quality 16:30:05 <GK> ... accessible to wide audience, libraries, bloggers, semantic web, etc. can use to get started 16:30:42 <GK> ... be clear what prov-dm means ontologically, how to integrate domain specific with prov-dm 16:31:31 <Luc> Can you confirm 6 months? See http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups.html#three-month-rule 16:31:35 <Luc> q? 16:31:39 <GK> Yolanda: have lots of comments about assertions and derivations: need to make distinction clear in primer. 16:32:27 <Luc> q? 16:32:32 <GK> GK: how do assertions and derivations get captured in RDF? I don't see it. 16:33:07 <Luc> q? 16:33:19 <GK> Yolanda: need to explain what is meant by these terms on documents. 16:33:21 <satya> @Simon, prov-o describes what prov-dm means ontologically - did you mean something in addition to prov-o? 16:33:51 <GK> Luc: 6 months is a long time to next release. 16:34:20 <GK> ... also W3C has "3 month rule" for updates to active documents. 16:34:52 <GK> SimonM: our long term aims were on a 6 month period, but we can make interime releases. 16:35:18 <sandro> three month rule, fyi: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups#three-month-rule 16:35:26 <GK> Luc: could you please identify (offline) date for next working draft? 16:35:27 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaff 16:35:39 <GK> SimonM: OK. Maybe March/April? 16:35:57 <Luc> q? 16:36:12 <GK> Luc: Prov-O - what are your plans? 16:36:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aagg 16:36:46 <GK> Khalid: need to align prov-o with current prov-dm, other topics not yet considered... 16:37:02 <GK> ... also have not determined next release date 16:37:33 <GK> ... Stephan will try to identify potential users from those identified by connections TF 16:37:53 <GK> Luc: can you please come back with a planned release date. 16:37:56 <Luc> q? 16:37:59 <dgarijo> we finished half of the list, so hopefully in a couple of telecons we're done with the alignement. 16:38:09 <Zakim> -Yolanda 16:38:23 <tlebo> satya 16:38:24 <pgroth> can't hear you satya 16:38:26 <dgarijo> @GK Satya 16:38:47 <pgroth> now 16:38:51 <khalidbelhajjame> we can hear you now 16:39:01 <Luc> the three month rule: a new draft of each active technical report at least once every three months 16:39:03 <Paolo> @GK satya 16:39:28 <satya> We plan to release next pwd by Feb - given the three month rule 16:40:07 <satya> and a major update before 2nd F2F 16:40:27 <GK> Luc: apart from 3 month rule, would be nice to have stable document by F2F meeting. 16:40:40 <GK> ... doesn't need to be formally released. 16:40:57 <Luc> q? 16:40:58 <GK> Khalid: should be fairly closely aligned by F2F meeting 16:41:08 <satya> we can discuss this during our call also next Monday 16:41:13 <GK> Topic: prov-dm 16:41:17 <satya> sure, I was planning to initiate release process by end of Jan/first week of Feb 16:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aagg 16:41:39 <Luc> @satya, it looks good <luc>Summary: Paolo has been working on specializationOf/alternateOf and collections, and feels that there is a good convergence of opinions on these topics. When the sections are ready, the WG will be invited to review and raise issues in the usual way. The aim is to have a document ready for internal review on Jan 19th, with a view to vote for release the following week. The editors have identified issues that they wish to close. Issues authors please review proposals, close issues and/or continue discussions by email. 16:41:39 <GK> Paolo: "complementOf" issue is reaching convergence. 16:41:47 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#record-complement-of 16:41:58 <GK> New next is (at link above) 16:42:29 <GK> q+ to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions 16:43:07 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aahh 16:43:08 <GK> Paolo: the term "compelentOf" is still used, we need to formally agree new terms 16:43:34 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#record-Collection 16:43:45 <GK> paolo: collections, has been substantially simplified 16:44:13 <GK> ... have long response from Stian to work though, but we do seem to be converging 16:44:27 <GK> ... hope to finish this successfully (in next week?) 16:44:49 <tlebo> +q to ask about global versus local naming in "complementOf" section and rest of document. 16:45:03 <GK> ... issue about whether collections actually belong - discussion on list, along with discussion of what is domain specific. 16:45:48 <tlebo> +1 to how the new specializationOf section looks 16:46:06 <Luc> q? 16:46:08 <Luc> ack gk 16:46:08 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions 16:46:26 <GK> Tim: specialization section looks great 16:46:46 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aahh 16:46:46 <GK> ... have problem with distinction between global and local naming 16:47:15 <GK> ... think this is "very dissonant" (something that needs to be discussed?) 16:47:33 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaii 16:47:45 <GK> Luc: there is a specific issue addressing this. 16:49:08 <tlebo> q- 16:49:45 <GK> Luc: about vote about new terminology; granularity is too coarse (?) 16:50:17 <Luc> q? 16:50:26 <GK> q+ to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or... 16:50:38 <pgroth> q+ 16:50:48 <satya> +1, I think we need to discuss over raised issue first 16:50:49 <tlebo> I'm happy to close any issues that I've raised for complementOf 16:50:50 <Luc> ack gk 16:50:50 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or... 16:50:59 <JimMcCusker> +q 16:51:30 <Luc> ack pgr 16:51:39 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaii 16:51:47 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:51:49 <GK> GK: only need to vote if there is disagreement 16:52:04 <GK> paulG: issue system seems to work well 16:52:56 <GK> jimMc: issue of one entity record for each identifier. And if identifier is URI, can't enforce scoping of interpretation. 16:53:00 <Luc> q? 16:53:03 <Luc> ack jim #16:53:22 <GK> Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm 16:53:48 <Luc> closing issues Closed pending review: ISSUE-50: Satya ISSUE-57: Graham ISSUE-100: Satya ISSUE-105: Satya ISSUE-113: Khalid ISSUE-121: Satya ISSUE-124: Satya ISSUE-125: Satya ISSUE-126: Satya ISSUE-127: Satya ISSUE-176: Tim ISSUE-178: Tim ISSUE-191: Satya ISSUE-201: Satya To be answered: ISSUE-185: Satya ISSUE-186: Satya ISSUE-187: Satya ISSUE-188: Satya ISSUE-189: Satya ISSUE-192: Satya ISSUE-193: Satya ISSUE-200: Satya  16:53:54 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aajj 16:54:02 <GK> Luc: aiming for release by end of month 16:54:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm #16:54:13 <GK> Topic: prov-dm (still - closing issues) 16:54:26 <satya> @jimMc, +1 16:55:09 <Luc> q? 16:55:20 <tlebo> +1 I'll review my issues 16:55:21 <GK> Luc: need people to raised issues to respond to confirm issues can be closed. Would be better to close old issues and open new ones. 16:55:25 <satya> @Luc, sure will try to review and respond asap the outstanding issues 16:56:17 <GK> GK: happy to close issue 57, will raise new if I have problem with new text 16:56:32 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_graphs_to_model_Accounts 16:56:40 <GK> Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm <luc>Summary: During the week, Tim produced a proposal to express accounts in RDF, making use of RDF abstract graphs. Please discuss the proposal by email during the week, we will come back to this topic next week. 16:56:51 <GK> Discussion of accounts 16:58:11 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aajj 16:58:20 <GK> Tim: proposing that account assertions are "RDF abstract graph" - set of triples independent of location. Tryimng to core construct of activity to associate asserter with account graph. Then addressing association of abstract graph with where it rests. 16:59:24 <GK> ... triple store organization of named graphs is "chaotic" - can re-use service description vocabulary. 16:59:47 <GK> q+ 16:59:56 <pgroth> q+ 16:59:59 <Luc> ack GK 17:00:07 <dgarijo> q+ 17:00:59 <Luc> ack pg 17:01:38 <GK> GK: my comments (on list) really reeferring to *assertion* of an account, rather than problem of account being an "abstract graph". 17:01:41 <pgroth> ack pgroth 17:02:08 <GK> PaulG: question about typing of graph (missed details of response) 17:02:20 <tlebo> +1 to confusion over Activyt versus Entity - partiatlly b/c I'm not sure yet :-) 17:02:32 <GK> DanielG: account as activity or entity? Gets confusing. 17:03:00 <GK> ... distinguishes between account as wrapper, and activity that creates that wrapper. 17:03:27 <Luc> q? 17:03:31 <Luc> ack dga 17:04:14 <GK> Tim: yes, there is some confusion, indecision yet. Details still to be worked out (wasAtributedTo property mentioned?) 17:04:48 <GK> Tim: still want to quality association with some activity (e.g. similar to derivedfrom?) 17:04:57 <Luc> q? 17:05:48 <GK> Luc: have raised issue of mixing accounts and entities. 17:05:54 <dgarijo> @Tim: anyway, this is the kind of discussion we needed to make this work. Thanks! 17:06:53 <GK> q+ 17:07:29 <GK> q+ to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean 17:07:44 <Luc> ack gk 17:07:44 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean 17:07:55 <Zakim> -??P29 17:08:01 <Luc> q? 17:08:45 <GK> Tim: terms we have are graph container, RDF abstract graph, and ... 17:09:21 <Luc> q? 17:09:34 <GK> SPARQL service description associates a graph with a name 17:09:53 <Luc> q? 17:10:17 <GK> (sorry, my audio got interrupted) 17:10:46 <pgroth> thanks tim! 17:10:56 <tlebo> thanks for feedback! 17:11:06 <dgarijo> :) 17:11:18 <GK> Luc: wrapping up 17:11:21 <Zakim> -tlebo 17:11:21 <GK> Ends. 17:11:22 <Zakim> -??P11 17:11:23 <Zakim> -dgarijo 17:11:27 <Zakim> -jcheney 17:11:29 <Zakim> -sandro 17:11:31 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame 17:11:35 <Zakim> -Paolo 17:11:39 <Zakim> -MacTed 17:11:41 <Zakim> -Luc 17:11:43 <Zakim> -pgroth 17:11:45 <Zakim> -GK 17:11:47 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aacc 17:12:43 <Zakim> -??P40 17:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, ??P56, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM 17:35:05 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended 17:35:07 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Luc, Paolo, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed, jcheney, Yolanda, +1.518.633.aacc, tlebo, dgarijo, +1.760.705.aadd, +1.760.705.aaee, 17:35:10 <Zakim> ... +1.760.705.aaff, +1.760.705.aagg, +1.760.705.aahh, +1.760.705.aaii, +1.760.705.aajj # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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