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15:51:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 15:51:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/22-prov-irc 15:51:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:51:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 15:51:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 15:51:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 15:51:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:51:58 <trackbot> Date: 22 December 2011 15:52:03 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:52:03 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 15:52:19 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.12.22 15:52:31 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth 15:52:45 <pgroth> Scribe: Paolo Missier 15:52:52 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public 15:53:06 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov 15:55:21 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov 15:56:36 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 15:56:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:56:56 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:56:56 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 15:57:19 <Zakim> +??P1 15:57:37 <Paolo> zakim, ??p1 is me 15:57:37 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it 15:57:43 <pgroth> thanks paolo 15:57:46 <pgroth> everything is setup 15:58:35 <davidschaengold> davidschaengold has joined #prov 15:59:06 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 15:59:16 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes #15:59:42 <Zakim> +pchampin 15:59:48 <Zakim> + +1.646.389.aaaa 16:00:22 <davidschaengold> Zakim, +1.646.389.aaaa is davidschaengold 16:00:22 <Zakim> +davidschaengold; got it 16:00:31 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 16:00:51 <Zakim> +??P5 16:01:03 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb 16:01:20 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 16:01:21 <tlebo> zakim, aabb is tlebo 16:01:22 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 16:02:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:02:18 <pgroth> Topic: Admin <pgroth> Summary: Approved the minutes of Dec 8 and Dec 15 telecon. Next telecon will be Jan. 5 2012 #16:02:25 <Zakim> -pchampin 16:02:27 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov 16:02:29 <dgarijo> zakim, [IPcaller] is me 16:02:29 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 16:02:48 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-08 16:02:59 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 08 telecon 16:03:02 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 16:03:13 <dgarijo> +1 16:03:15 <Curt> 0 (not present) 16:03:16 <Paolo> +1 16:03:18 <tlebo> +1 16:03:23 <davidschaengold> 0 (not present) 16:03:26 <jcheney> +1 minutes 16:03:46 <pgroth> Accepted minutes Dec 8 telecon 16:03:51 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-15 16:04:00 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 15 telecon 16:04:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:04:01 <dgarijo> +1 16:04:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 16:04:04 <Curt> 0 (not present) 16:04:06 <StephenCresswell> +1 16:04:07 <Paolo> +1 16:04:15 <tlebo> +1 16:04:16 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov 16:04:20 <jcheney> +1 minutes 16:04:21 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov 16:04:25 <davidschaengold> 0 (not present) 16:04:31 <pgroth> Accepted minutes of the Dec 15 telecon 16:04:56 <Paolo> pgroth: next telecon Jan 5th 16:05:02 <pgroth> Topic: Plan for Second Working Drafts <pgroth> Summary: PROV-AQ, PROV-DM and PROV-O presented outlines of their plans for the upcoming working drafts to the group. Overall, the aim is to have various revisions done before the end of January. PROV-O plans to be discussed in greater detail at the forthcoming telecon. PROV-O editors were encouraged to aim having all PROV-DM constructs represented. PROV-AQ editors will discuss with Tim Lebo the handling of provenance "pingback" mechanism and whether that gets included in the next working draft. 16:05:26 <pgroth> prov-aq 16:05:33 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Dec/0232.html 16:06:05 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aacc 16:08:31 <pgroth> +q 16:08:36 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:08:38 <pgroth> q? 16:08:50 <Paolo> target for resolving issues on prov-aq: one week prior to F2F2 16:09:12 <tlebo> q+ #16:09:17 <Zakim> +pchampin 16:09:21 <pgroth> ack tlebo 16:09:52 <Paolo> Tlebo: issue of advertising where to find provenance 16:10:12 <Paolo> Pgroth: to be addressed after 2nd WD 16:10:43 <Paolo> Tlebo: why so elaborate? one paragraph should suffice 16:11:01 <satya> satya has joined #prov 16:11:22 <Paolo> Pgroth: GK thought it may be too much for this version of the draft. 16:11:27 <pgroth> +q 16:11:29 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:11:37 <Paolo> Tlebo: GK and I have scheduled a discussion for Jan. 16:12:07 <Paolo> Pgroth: anyone from PROV- primer? (no) 16:12:16 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#changes-since-second-public-working-draft 16:12:30 <Paolo> Pgroth: PROV-DM plans for 3rd WD, asking Luc 16:12:45 <Paolo> Luc: issues just posted have already been worked on 16:13:01 <Paolo> Luc: new section created where all constraints are collected 16:13:18 <Paolo> Luc: this gives constraints more space in the doc 16:13:38 <Paolo> Luc: relations such as "wasComplementOf" reworked, Paolo sent a draft proposal 16:13:47 <Paolo> Luc: also reworked recipe -> plan 16:14:03 <Paolo> Luc: also tried to clarify "identifiers" 16:14:15 <Paolo> Luc: collections still being worked on (Paolo) 16:14:40 <Paolo> Luc: most issues raised in the tracked have been addressed. some will not happen (new example, request from Yolanda) 16:14:51 <Paolo> Luc: debate b/w ids and accounts still needed. 16:15:03 <Paolo> Luc: end of January target for next release (3rd WD) 16:15:09 <pgroth> +q 16:15:13 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:15:14 <Paolo> Luc: vote proposed around Jan 20th 16:15:15 <pgroth> q? 16:15:34 <Paolo> <correct> end of January target for next release VOTE 16:16:15 <Paolo> Luc: need feedback. Will invite WG to review the whole doc by Jan 15th 16:16:22 <pgroth> q? 16:16:30 <Paolo> Luc: issue authors please comment o the state of your issues 16:16:54 <dgarijo> I'm here, but I've been out this week. 16:16:54 <Paolo> pgroth: plans for PROV-O? 16:17:26 <Paolo> Satya: discussed org for next version, but no call this week 16:17:51 <Paolo> Satya: discussed updating constraints part, following updates in PROV-DM. 16:17:57 <Luc> q+ 16:18:07 <Paolo> Satya: no constraints were included in the first release, that will happen in the next 16:18:24 <Paolo> Satya: realigning recipe -> plan 16:18:37 <Paolo> Satya: new complementOf proposal to be discussed in the next telco 16:18:52 <pgroth> ack luc 16:18:52 <Paolo> Satya: ditto for the data containers proposal (aka collections) 16:19:02 <Paolo> Luc: timetable? 16:20:11 <Paolo> Satya: reorg: Jan 10th target date. New features as discussed: around Jan 15-20 16:21:12 <Paolo> Satya: release of next version: around last week of Jan 16:21:49 <Paolo> Luc: concerned about focus on the constraints -- they may still evolve in PROV_DM depending on discussion outcomes 16:22:24 <Paolo> Luc: lightweight vocabulary for all the PROV-DM is desirable, constraints to be added later after their defs settles 16:23:09 <Paolo> Luc: F2F 2 will talk about interoperability, so encoding of the vocabulary is essential if we are to be able to do that 16:23:43 <pgroth> q? 16:24:00 <Paolo> Satya: substantially agrees that all DM terms are reflected in -O 16:24:30 <Paolo> Pgroth: please send out an update to the list after the next confcall with the new schedule 16:24:31 <pgroth> q? 16:24:46 <Paolo> Satya: will do -- also, all invited to the -O call 16:24:51 <pgroth> q 16:24:53 <pgroth> q? 16:25:08 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-sem <pgroth> summary: James Cheney presented a draft of a formal semantics for PROV-DM and asked for input from the group. 16:25:16 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman 16:25:53 <Paolo> jcheney: rearranged the structure and terminology following -DM 16:26:26 <Paolo> jcheney: instance of the DM viewed as a formula 16:26:55 <Paolo> jcheney: "objects" with a lifetime, attributes. "objects" captures what is common to entities, activities, agents 16:27:17 <Paolo> jcheney: events are instantaneous but they can have attributes as well, so they are objects as well 16:28:19 <Paolo> jcheney: (presentation on semantics) 16:28:44 <Paolo> jcheney: not clear whether time interpretation is needed. GK suggested to avoid time, which may be possible and simpler 16:29:34 <Paolo> jcheney:: some things may hold "at any time" (see complementOf) 16:30:00 <Paolo> others depend on time if the mapping ids- >object is independent of time, then fewer things will depend on time in the model 16:30:02 <pgroth> q? 16:30:13 <Luc> q+ 16:30:28 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:30:38 <Paolo> del/others depend on time 16:31:19 <Paolo> Luc: this helps understanding the DM. what's the best way to discuss about specific points? 16:32:23 <Paolo> jcheney: email the list. use actual issues for specific things 16:32:35 <pgroth> q? 16:32:37 <satya> q+ 16:32:42 <Paolo> jcheney: e.g. the recent complementOf discussion was appropriately on the list 16:32:43 <pgroth> ack satya 16:33:47 <Paolo> satya: time invariant/time dependent interpretations -- -DM is based mostly on events. are events going to replace time in -SEM? 16:34:09 <pgroth> Zakim, who's noisy? 16:34:24 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P5 (4%), +44.238.059.aacc (60%) 16:34:43 <pgroth> P5 can you mute? 16:34:46 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 16:34:50 <Paolo> jcheney: time instants are arbitrary partial order. total order not needed. this maybe close to the notion of events in -DM 16:35:49 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd 16:35:57 <Paolo> jcheney: ex: use, generation, activity start and end are events in -DM -- so events are associated with the specific relations and properties used in -DM 16:37:11 <satya> @James- yes, that is something I would like to be considered and discussed 16:37:15 <pgroth> q? 16:37:21 <Paolo> jcheney: there is an assumption that events are instantaneous, however they may span a temporal interval. This would make them similar to activities, possibly those that cannot be decomposed. but this is premature 16:38:21 <Paolo> jcheney: need feedback before moving on to additional sections 16:39:14 <Paolo> jcheney: complementarity is what it was prior to the latest discussion. It may not necessarily match the draft. 16:39:39 <Paolo> jcheney: also added sections on the viewOf/foobar relations and tried to give them a formal meaning 16:40:21 <Paolo> jcheney: viewOf anti-symmetric, lifetime containment, and relationship amongst the sets of attributes of the two entities 16:40:53 <pgroth> type it 16:40:59 <Paolo> jcheney: foobar (now changed to alternateOf) 16:41:16 <Paolo> jcheney: also being updated 16:43:30 <Paolo> jcheney: mismatch between a property like "two entity IDs describe the same entity" vs "two entity IDs are associated with two entity records about the same real world thing, but which give different characterizationss" 16:43:56 <Paolo> jcheney: need further discussion over email 16:44:02 <pgroth> q? #16:44:21 <Zakim> -pchampin 16:44:43 <Luc> q+ 16:44:49 <pgroth> q- 16:44:54 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:45:03 <Paolo> jcheney: new recent changes in -DM regarding IDs of entity vs entity records should now be taken into account 16:46:04 <Paolo> Luc: in -DM we have 3 levels: things in the world, entities, and entity records. Their distinction is important. In the -SEM doc the same distinction ought to be made. #16:46:45 <Zakim> +pchampin 16:46:55 <Paolo> jcheney: yes that pushes -SEM in the direction of having 3 levels rather than 2 (as it is now in -SEM) 16:47:32 <pgroth> q? 16:48:29 <Paolo> pgroth: discuss identifiers or accounts? 16:48:40 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DM Identifiers <pgroth> summary: editors of PROV-DM presented their recent changes that clarify the role of identifiers and how they relate to accounts. PROV-O team members were asked to see if this approach maps naturally to RDF named graphs and if so how. Tim Lebo said he would look at how the account examples map. #16:48:40 <Zakim> -pchampin 16:49:20 <Paolo> Luc: in -DM entities have identifiers, entity records include the ID of the entity, but we do not identify the entity record /itself/ using that same identifiers #16:49:55 <Zakim> +pchampin 16:50:26 <pgroth> q? 16:50:49 <pgroth> q+ 16:52:28 <Paolo> pgroth: id of an entity record -> account + entity Id. what's the implication from an access point of view? there is no URL direclty for the entity record 16:52:59 <Paolo> Luc: there should be no impact on the PAQ 16:53:43 <Paolo> entity records must be searched possibly across multiple accounts. this has always been the understanding of how access works 16:54:11 <Paolo> pgroth: now we only indirectly reference an entity record 16:54:14 <pgroth> q? 16:54:18 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:54:41 <tlebo> pgroth, an "entity record" is a chunk of an RDF abstract graph. An entity is mentioned and described in that graph. 16:54:45 <Paolo> Luc: there was never a direct way to refer to entity records. it was always in the context of a given account 16:54:48 <pgroth> q? 16:55:17 <tlebo> +1 to avoid naming entity records. 16:55:28 <pgroth> q? 16:55:32 <Paolo> Luc: we have never been keen on minting new IDs for every entity record created. Req. was to minimize burden on asserters 16:56:03 <pgroth> q? 16:56:10 <tlebo> q+ 16:56:18 <pgroth> ack tlebo 16:56:18 <Paolo> Luc: what do the SW people / PROV-O team think of accounts and how they can be mapped to SW constructs (eg named graphs)? #16:56:49 <Zakim> -pchampin 16:57:53 <Paolo> tlebo: accounts are being mapped to NGs, it seems to map to "abstract graph" -- indep. of encoding, location,etc. 16:57:55 <Christine> apologies .. I need to leave .. thank you Paul and Luc 16:58:03 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 16:58:39 <Paolo> NGs are generally meant as graph containers. there is still some confusion on which interpretation of the NG should be used in this context 16:58:43 <satya> @Luc, sorry I have lost audio, will try to respond by mail to the updated account description in DM (an any points that Tim discusses regarding mapping to named graphs) 16:59:50 <Luc> q+ 16:59:55 <pgroth> ack Luc 17:00:06 <Paolo> will work off the concrete example in the id-accounts section in -DM 17:00:21 <Paolo> Luc: can we focus on all the example of accounts found in the -DM doc? 17:00:39 <Paolo> to see what maps naturally and what doesn't 17:01:23 <Paolo> Luc: account IDs are meant to be global, precisely to align with NG id convention 17:02:12 <Zakim> + +1.443.708.aaee 17:02:21 <Paolo> Tlebo: SW does not provide global URIs for NG. some reconciliation will be needed 17:02:51 <Paolo> Luc: there is no obligation to encode account IDs are URIs 17:03:46 <pgroth> q? 17:04:04 <Zakim> -tlebo 17:04:05 <Zakim> -dgarijo 17:04:06 <Zakim> -davidschaengold 17:04:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a] 17:04:10 <Zakim> -pgroth 17:04:11 <Zakim> - +44.238.059.aacc 17:04:12 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aaee 17:04:12 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aadd 17:04:14 <Zakim> -Paolo 17:04:20 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 17:04:22 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public 17:04:29 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes 17:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/22-prov-minutes.html pgroth 17:04:35 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon 17:04:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 17:04:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Paolo, Curt_Tilmes, pchampin, davidschaengold, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, dgarijo, [IPcaller], +44.238.059.aacc, +1.518.633.aadd, 17:04:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:04:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/22-prov-minutes.html trackbot 17:04:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 17:04:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items 17:04:38 <Zakim> ... +1.443.708.aaee # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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