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14:51:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:51:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-irc 14:51:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:51:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:51:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:51:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:51:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:51:40 <trackbot> Date: 06 October 2011 14:51:53 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.10.06 14:52:02 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth 14:52:12 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public 14:52:29 <pgroth> Zakim, who is here? 14:52:29 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is 14:52:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro 14:52:42 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:52:54 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 14:53:06 <pgroth> Zakim, who is here? 14:53:14 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, pgroth 14:53:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro 14:53:39 <stain_> stain_ has joined #prov 14:53:50 <stain_> two of me! 14:55:18 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 14:55:39 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:55:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:55:48 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call? 14:55:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller] 14:56:06 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:56:06 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 14:56:19 <pgroth> does anyone want to scribe? 14:57:12 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov 14:57:15 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 14:57:56 <pgroth> Regrets: Paolo Missier 14:58:00 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes 14:58:58 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aaaa 14:59:05 <Zakim> +Luc 14:59:14 <stain> Zakim, +44.789.470.aaaa is me 14:59:14 <Zakim> +stain; got it 14:59:16 <pgroth> Stephan can you scribe? 14:59:27 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov 14:59:45 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 15:00:14 <Zakim> +??P64 15:00:19 <jcheney> zakim, ??p64 is me 15:00:31 <Zakim> +??P65 15:00:44 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it 15:00:47 <Zakim> + +1.509.967.aabb 15:00:49 <satya> satya has joined #prov 15:00:51 <pgroth> scribe anybody? 15:00:53 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov 15:00:58 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov 15:01:05 <Zakim> +??P73 15:01:11 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 15:01:15 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 15:01:17 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov 15:01:32 <kai> kai has joined #prov 15:01:42 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:55 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aacc 15:02:03 <tlebo> zakim, aac is lebot 15:02:06 <stain> yes, Satya would be talking a bit today ;) 15:02:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Curt_Tilmes, stain, Luc, jcheney, ??P65, +1.509.967.aabb, ??P73, Satya_Sahoo, +1.315.330.aacc 15:02:10 <tlebo> zakim, 315 is me 15:02:25 <tlebo> zakim, aacc is tlebo 15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P48 15:02:31 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named 'aac' 15:02:36 <kai> zakim, ??P48 is probably me. 15:02:37 <tlebo> zakim, just know what I mean! 15:02:47 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '315' 15:02:50 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd 15:02:55 <Zakim> +??P84 15:02:57 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 15:02:59 <Zakim> +kai?; got it 15:03:01 <pgroth> pgroth: ask for scribes 15:03:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'just know what I mean!', tlebo 15:03:20 <pgroth> Scribe: ericstephan 15:03:30 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:03:49 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov 15:03:54 <pgroth> Minutes 15:03:55 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-09-29 15:04:02 <Zakim> +??P55 15:04:03 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Sep 29 telecon 15:04:05 <satya> +1 15:04:07 <stain> Zakim never recognizes me.. on http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3 exactly what do I need to fill in? stain or ssoiland or Stian Soiland-Reyes? +44....aaa or with the real digits? 15:04:08 <ericstephan> pgroth: proposal to accept minutes 15:04:09 <jcheney> +1 15:04:09 <Curt> +1 15:04:10 <kai> +1 15:04:11 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:04:11 <ericstephan> +1 15:04:18 <stain> +1 15:04:19 <tlebo> +1 15:04:24 <stain> I was not there, but you represented me well ;) 15:04:31 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P84 is me 15:04:39 <pgroth> ACCEPTED minutes from last week 15:04:55 <ericstephan> pgroth: no action items to review 15:05:02 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes 15:05:19 <ericstephan> pgroth: reminder we need scribes in advance. Please sign up. 15:05:30 <pgroth> TOPIC: Primer <pgroth> Summary: Yolanda Gil goes over the plan for the primer. Aim to have something ready within a month. Primer should consider both model and query, however, the model is the first goal. 15:05:34 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it 15:05:56 <ericstephan> yolanda: discussing Primer 15:06:08 <YolandaGil> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html 15:06:16 <ericstephan> yolanda: Initial plan was developed last Friday 15:06:34 <ericstephan> yolanda: two major sections... 15:06:51 <ericstephan> yolanda: Intro to provenance concepts...informal 15:07:05 <ericstephan> yolanda: Second half worked out examples 15:07:34 <ericstephan> yolanda: wants to use examples based on ths same general scenario 15:08:25 <tlebo> +q to mention http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples 15:08:27 <ericstephan> yolanda: Simon created skeleton doc. 15:09:34 <ericstephan> Yolanda: For each example section Yolanda/Simon asked for people to fill out each part 15:10:08 <ericstephan> Yolanda: Having the doc ready in 3-4 weeks sufficient? 15:10:49 <tlebo> 3-4 weeks is reasonable goal. 15:10:49 <Luc> it's ambitious, I believe 15:11:00 <tlebo> (emphasis on "goal") 15:11:17 <stain> Is that 3-4 weeks for first public draft of the primer, or to be ready for in-group review? 15:11:23 <pgroth> q? 15:11:26 <ericstephan> Yolanda: 2 weeks the group would work out examples. 2 weeks would be reviewed by the group overall 15:11:46 <YolandaGil> first in group review Stian 15:11:50 <ericstephan> Tim: Has been collecting examples in the wiki that could be drawn upon 15:11:55 <pgroth> q? 15:11:55 <Luc> q+ 15:11:56 <satya> +1 for including the examples by Tim 15:11:57 <stain> that's very helpful, tlebo 15:11:59 <pgroth> ack tlebo 15:11:59 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to mention http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples 15:12:01 <satya> q+ 15:12:02 <tlebo> q- 15:12:17 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:12:18 <khalidbelhajjame> +q 15:12:42 <ericstephan> Luc: Very ambitious, it would be good to have this within the month for the overall group 15:13:34 <stain> I've done my examples both in TTL and PROV-ASN - but manually, of course 15:13:39 <satya> Luc is mentioning this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-owl2-primer-20091027/#OWL_Syntaxes 15:13:47 <ericstephan> Luc: If the examples could be organized so that they could be expressed in different ways this would be nice 15:14:22 <pgroth> q? 15:14:24 <ericstephan> Luc: We want to make sure the Primer stays insync with the schemas as they emerge. Script checks would be nice 15:14:52 <stain> many JS-experts who know how to do that include-thingie? 15:15:07 <tlebo> automated verification of examples "stuck in HTML" is a great idea. I'm willing to take lead on that. 15:15:08 <ericstephan> Luc: Within the context of the primer, the ontology group should be able to give you guidance 15:15:10 <pgroth> ack satya 15:15:13 <stain> alternatively an XHTML-extraction-tool could try to dump out everything say <pre class="example"> 15:15:25 <tlebo> +1 @stian 15:15:34 <Luc> respect.js allows for inclusion of files ... 15:15:45 <ericstephan> Satya: Overview comments...the primer should cover the modeling aspects, but also the querying aspects 15:16:20 <ericstephan> Satya: It would be helpful with a scenario like the data model group 15:16:26 <Luc> respec.js allows for inclusion of files ... 15:16:42 <pgroth> q? 15:16:46 <Luc> q+ 15:16:52 <ericstephan> Satya: After the scenario bring out these capabiltieis 15:17:31 <ericstephan> Yolanda: Simon and I talked about bringing out three different perspectives of provenance 15:17:55 <Luc> q- 15:18:05 <stain> <div data-include='myDatatypes.xsd'></div> 15:18:09 <ericstephan> Yolanda: Document, process, and other perspectives views might be helpful 15:18:16 <Luc> q+ to ask if primer is just about model or also about PAQ 15:18:24 <satya> @Yolanda +1 15:18:28 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame 15:19:09 <ericstephan> Khalid: My only worry is hitting the relationship between concepts...could we give concepts in relationship to importance so that the reader could follow it? 15:19:26 <tlebo> +1 daniel, deemphasizing the focus on the concepts might make it more approachable. 15:19:30 <pgroth> q? 15:19:39 <ericstephan> Yolanda: It would definitely make the primer more usable. 15:19:45 <pgroth> ack luc 15:19:45 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to ask if primer is just about model or also about PAQ 15:19:56 <stain> @khalidbelhajjame +1 - the other two documents are already "sequential" by class/property, so a non-sequential prioritised example would help 15:20:26 <ericstephan> Luc: Two questions...It feels like the primer is just about the provenance ontology, what about the provenance of (sorry couldn't hear) 15:20:50 <stain> Luc: ... provenance access and query document 15:21:20 <ericstephan> Luc: Second point a number of common relations in the data model not listed here...its important that they are addressed. 15:22:08 <ericstephan> Yolanda: I think it would be good to have a first draft to see what needs to be improved...to show what is shown in primer vs practice 15:22:11 <tlebo> pushing shortcut aspects to Best Practices makes sense. 15:22:14 <pgroth> q? 15:23:03 <tlebo> Primer some reads a couple of times, then moves to regularly reference the Best Practices for design solutions to apply to their problems. 15:23:04 <ericstephan> Luc: For now the primer will focus on the core concpets of the model, but extensions addressed later... 15:23:10 <tlebo> *someone 15:23:31 <pgroth> q? 15:23:34 <ericstephan> pgroth: I'd like to discuss more, perhaps later will raise issue later 15:23:55 <tlebo> retweet - someone reads the Primer a couple of times, then moves to regularly reference the Best Practices Document to get design solutions and apply them to their problems. 15:24:11 <pgroth> TOPIC: Renaming Deliverables <pgroth> Summary: The group agrees to drop the term "formel model" to refer to the semantic web ontology. Terms are requested for a vote at the next telecon. 15:24:50 <pgroth> Proposed: Drop 'formel model' name for referring to the semantic web ontology 15:25:04 <ericstephan> pgroth: comments on this? 15:25:15 <satya> briefly discussed during ontology call 15:25:29 <jcheney> +1 15:25:29 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:25:30 <stain> +1 15:25:30 <Curt> +1 15:25:30 <satya> +1 15:25:32 <zednik> +1 15:25:32 <tlebo> +1 x10^5; I suggest renaming it to "PROV OWL Encoding" 15:25:33 <ericstephan> +1 15:25:40 <kai> +1 15:25:40 <YolandaGil> +1 15:25:57 <pgroth> Resolved: Drop 'formel model' name for referring to the semantic web ontology 15:25:59 <satya> q+ 15:26:01 <ericstephan> pgroth: approved 15:26:17 <satya> PROV Ontology Model (also PROV ontology) 15:26:44 <satya> q- 15:26:47 <khalidbelhajjame> Paolo isn't on the call, but he was suggesting PROV-Onto 15:26:51 <ericstephan> pgroth: Put suggested name on the mailing list vote next week 15:27:05 <pgroth> q? 15:27:30 <pgroth> TOPIC: OWL Ontology <pgroth> Summary: Satya reviewed the status of the OWL Ontology. Goal is to address current issues while preparing the document for FPWD. Tim Lebo went over his proposal for dealing with accounts using named graphs. He was encouraged to continue to bring it to the attention of the RDF working group 15:27:42 <tlebo> does anyone know which issue the formal renaming is? 15:27:52 <ericstephan> pgroth: satya review of ontology 15:28:10 <stain> I don't think there is an official issue yet for the name 15:28:13 <ericstephan> Satya: requested reviews, feedback and comments yesterday 15:28:45 <ericstephan> Satya: Covered all sections we planned to do, lots of editing ahead, ready for review from end to end. 15:29:17 <ericstephan> Satya: Jcheney acting as user perpsective reviewer 15:29:59 <tlebo> (what is the subject of the email proposing the Formal Model rename? It's buried :-) 15:30:19 <ericstephan> Satya: need to formalize concepts in OWL framework and explain how it can be used by another ontology 15:30:35 <pgroth> q? 15:30:37 <ericstephan> Satya: Describe the inferences given that its an OWL ontology 15:30:46 <pgroth> q? 15:30:55 <khalidbelhajjame> Tim, here is the subject "proposal: drop 'formal model' terminology" 15:31:15 <ericstephan> pgroth: what do you think needs to be done before making the owl ontology a first public working draft 15:31:36 <Luc> @tlebo, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Sep/0338.html 15:31:49 <ericstephan> satya: currently making edits over the next week and doing the preliminary review as described earlier 15:31:59 <pgroth> q? 15:32:30 <ericstephan> pgroth: a couple of issues making sure ontology is integrated with model...issue of ACCOUNT 15:32:32 <tlebo> (created issues on http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/120) 15:32:45 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts 15:33:01 <zednik> q+ 15:33:02 <ericstephan> tlebo: discussion starts with named graphs... 15:33:26 <ericstephan> tlebo: named graphs are just by reference not value 15:33:35 <zednik> q- 15:33:58 <ericstephan> tlebo: shows how named graphs are represented and model provenance accounts using named graphs 15:34:26 <ericstephan> tlebo: named metagraphs are pairs of graphs, not commonly practiced in the rdf community 15:35:01 <ericstephan> tlebo: One graph naming another, draw distinction where these graphs are (metagraphs) 15:35:39 <ericstephan> tlebo: example uses: cache a graph off the web storing it in your local graph 15:36:28 <ericstephan> tlebo: important distinction from traditional named graph communities, is that it is part of RDF as well as a SPARQL endpoint 15:37:04 <pgroth> q? 15:37:05 <Luc> q+ 15:37:12 <ericstephan> tlebo: let me know if you have any comments or suggestions 15:37:34 <ericstephan> Luc: It looks very clear, what is the implication of this in the ontology? 15:37:52 <ericstephan> Tlebo: Needs to be an assertion process execution 15:38:11 <ericstephan> Tlebo: subclasses within classes of ontology 15:38:59 <ericstephan> Luc: in the abstract model have assertions made by two entities that are complements of each other. How would it work in this context? Is it only available at the RDF level? 15:39:56 <ericstephan> Luc: Would there be any constructs any assertions belong to a given account? 15:40:24 <satya> That overlaps with notion of a container structure containing a set of assertions, hence belonging to the container 15:40:39 <khalidbelhajjame> I think the short answer to Luc's question is no. 15:40:43 <pgroth> q? 15:40:47 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:41:16 <satya> @Tim: Right - which is also supported by SPARQL 15:41:17 <ericstephan> Tlebo: there would be a way of specifying a named graph that was asserted. 15:41:25 <khalidbelhajjame> Luc, you are right 15:41:30 <ericstephan> Luc: The account isn't at the owl level? 15:41:31 <pgroth> but they will be 15:41:41 <pgroth> q? 15:41:50 <ericstephan> Tlebo: writing up at the owl level 15:42:05 <ericstephan> sandro: (hard to hear) 15:42:43 <ericstephan> sandro: is the notion of named graphs also assuming nothing is changed? 15:43:01 <ericstephan> tlebo: quite the opposite changing all the time 15:43:19 <ericstephan> tlebo: account asserted at a particular time. 15:44:14 <ericstephan> tlebo: these things can move, they don't have to 15:44:46 <ericstephan> tlebo: you can serialize that named graph and make it an annotation for your account., you don't have to for that account assertion 15:44:56 <ericstephan> sandro: formal definition of named graph? 15:45:13 <ericstephan> tlebo: specification of a subset of an RDF named graph 15:45:41 <ericstephan> tlebo: location is important here, it is a location, and the constant can change at any time 15:46:02 <pgroth> q? 15:46:03 <ericstephan> sandro: (can't hear) 15:46:12 <pgroth> ack Sandro 15:46:39 <ericstephan> pgroth: working with Richard and working through this notion in the provenance rdf list 15:46:41 <Luc> q+ 15:47:02 <ericstephan> Luc: Tim, have you seen that in the data model accounts they can be hierarchical? 15:47:25 <satya> No, containment relation for nested accounts 15:47:28 <pgroth> q? 15:47:28 <ericstephan> Tlebo: I wasn't aware of the hierarchy, but will make sure nesting is accounted for 15:47:29 <satya> in RDF 15:47:35 <pgroth> ack LUc 15:47:35 <satya> q+ 15:48:13 <Luc> q+ 15:48:17 <ericstephan> satya: Luc and Tim if you read account, talks about scoping the identities and semantic constraints. They have global context cannot scope 15:48:19 <pgroth> ack satya 15:48:35 <ericstephan> Tlebo: Because we are using URI we control what we are talking about 15:48:48 <ericstephan> Satya: WIll point Tim to existing work... 15:49:46 <pgroth> q? 15:49:51 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:49:54 <ericstephan> Luc: we need to be careful when we say we can't scope identifiers. What we are scoping is saying one thing about another resource... 15:50:11 <ericstephan> Satya: I'll defer this to email... 15:51:06 <ericstephan> Luc: We need to be careful when we refer to entity or resources.., please flag any unclear sentences 15:51:07 <pgroth> q? 15:51:13 <Luc> @tlebo, it's nice work indeed, thanks 15:51:39 <stain> I'll poke Daniel 15:52:34 <khalidbelhajjame> Also, we added a class Recipe 15:52:52 <ericstephan> ericstephan: (sorry scribe was distracted Satya) 15:52:59 <pgroth> q? 15:53:08 <pgroth> Topic: First Public Working Drafts <pgroth> Summary: Asked for support in advertising FPWD. Also discussed the status of the questionnaire. 15:53:16 <Luc> @satya: there is an attribute location 15:53:38 <tlebo> satya: we need a property to associate Entity to Location, so we are gearing up to propose prov:hadLocation domain Entity range Location . 15:54:20 <ericstephan> pgroth: we need to get people interested in and get feedback..releasing ontology and model at the same time...whats the schedule? 15:55:27 <Luc> @satya: ... and the qualifiers are in the DM 15:55:41 <ericstephan> pgroth; volunteers for promoting first public working draft? 15:56:00 <satya> @Luc: as Tim said, we need two terms - a term for location and a property for linking to location (maybe that is covered by notion of qualifier) 15:56:05 <ericstephan> pgroth: blog posts or illustrative blog posts 15:56:06 <khalidbelhajjame> Yes, I ll be interested in doing so 15:56:38 <satya> @Luc: From Account current description: "Account expressions constitue a scope for identifiers" where identifiers I interpret to be URI 15:56:41 <ericstephan> Yes I agree Paul 15:56:49 <stain> I would be willing to promote as well 15:56:51 <Christine> I agree too 15:56:56 <ericstephan> pgroth: status of questionaire? 15:57:01 <stain> excuse to wake up ye old blog.. 15:57:38 <ericstephan> zednik: should have a large influx from responses...getting it out there havent assessed feedback. 15:57:47 <stain> we can just tweet it 15:57:50 <jcheney> I'd be happy to send survey/FPWD announcment to research data management and DCC mailing lists. 15:58:04 <pgroth> q? 15:58:20 <Zakim> -??P55 15:58:21 <Luc> thanks all, bye 15:58:21 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 15:58:22 <Zakim> -tlebo 15:58:23 <Zakim> -??P65 15:58:23 <Zakim> -??P73 15:58:23 <Zakim> -jcheney 15:58:24 <Zakim> -stain 15:58:27 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:58:28 <Zakim> -Luc 15:58:31 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 15:58:34 <Zakim> -kai 15:58:35 <ericstephan> any follow up duties for scribe? 15:58:52 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public 15:58:59 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes 15:58:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-minutes.html pgroth 15:59:08 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon 15:59:08 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 15:59:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Curt_Tilmes, Luc, stain, jcheney, +1.509.967.aabb, Satya_Sahoo, +1.315.330.aacc, +1.518.633.aadd, tlebo, kai?, Sandro, 15:59:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:59:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-minutes.html trackbot 15:59:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 15:59:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items 15:59:12 <Zakim> ... khalidbelhajjame # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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