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15:45:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 15:45:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-irc 15:45:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:45:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 15:45:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:45:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes 15:45:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:45:20 <trackbot> Date: 07 February 2013 15:50:41 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 15:50:57 <pgroth> trackbot, start telcon 15:50:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:51:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:51:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 15:51:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:51:02 <trackbot> Date: 07 February 2013 15:51:03 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:51:03 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 15:51:32 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06 15:51:38 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth 15:52:01 <pgroth> Scribe: Tom De Nies 15:52:20 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public 15:53:41 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 15:53:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:53:56 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:53:56 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 15:58:04 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov 15:59:20 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov 15:59:26 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 15:59:36 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 16:00:03 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 16:00:03 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 16:00:04 <Zakim> +Ivan 16:00:06 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV 16:00:18 <Zakim> +??P1 16:00:23 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P1 is me 16:00:23 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 16:00:25 <pgroth> tom are you to scribe? 16:00:25 <hook> hook has joined #prov 16:00:33 <pgroth> you ready to scribe? 16:00:34 <TomDN> yes, hold on, trying to dial in 16:00:36 <pgroth> ok 16:00:39 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes 16:00:47 <Zakim> +TomDN 16:00:51 <TomDN> ok :) 16:00:56 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 16:00:56 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 16:01:02 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06 16:01:07 <Zakim> + +1.818.749.aaaa 16:01:28 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: Provenance WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06 16:01:33 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 16:01:51 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 16:01:58 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov 16:01:58 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:01:58 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it 16:02:00 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me 16:02:00 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted 16:02:01 <Zakim> +tlebo 16:02:05 <Zakim> -tlebo 16:02:12 <pgroth> Topic: Admin <pgroth> Summary: All outstanding comments have been addressed with respect to the CR phase. The Feb. 14, 2013 was cancelled due to the unavailability of the chairs. 16:02:27 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2013-01-31 16:02:29 <TomDN> pgroth: approval of last week's minutes 16:02:55 <dgarijo> +1 16:02:56 <TomDN> +1 16:02:57 <khalidBelhajjame> +1 16:02:57 <Curt> +1 16:03:01 <hook> +1 16:03:11 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb 16:03:22 <ivan> 1 16:03:23 <TallTed> +0 16:03:27 <CraigTrim> +1 16:03:31 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of Jan. 31, 2013 16:04:19 <TomDN> pgroth: open actions: Luc needs to FAQ and I responded to Clark & Parsia 16:04:39 <TomDN> ... This closes all outstanding comments on the CR. 16:05:27 <pgroth> q? 16:05:29 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov 16:05:30 <TomDN> ... Next week Luc and I can't make it, so we will cancel next week's telecon 16:05:32 <Zakim> +tlebo 16:05:38 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 16:05:39 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-XML <pgroth> Summary: The group converged on several issues with respect to PROV-XML. The group agreed to adopt qnames for identifiers in prov-xml as it seemed to be the most natural for xml and had the least number of issues. The group agreed to have an ordering of attributes in prov-xml in order to facilitate usage in tools, in particular, jaxb. It was also suggested to create an FAQ entry/page around the use of PROV-XML with jaxb giving examples etc.. A discussion was had around the current organization of the schemas. After explanation, the group was satisfied with the current structure. The editors were encouraged to get the changes done so that a review can happen before a PR release. 16:05:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:05:55 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 16:06:00 <TomDN> pgroth: We want to converge on some outstanding issues 16:06:06 <GK> GK has joined #prov 16:06:06 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov 16:06:09 <Zakim> +jcheney 16:06:23 <TomDN> ... First issue. Which identifiers do we use in PROV-XML? 16:06:32 <TomDN> ... editors are for the use of qnames 16:06:48 <TomDN> zednik: Qnames seem to have the least issues. 16:07:01 <TomDN> ... so best remaining option 16:07:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 16:07:07 <hook> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Prov-XML_Identifiers 16:07:34 <pgroth> q? 16:07:35 <hook> q+ 16:07:35 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 16:07:37 <TomDN> pgroth: comments? 16:07:46 <satya> satya has joined #prov 16:07:52 <pgroth> ack hook 16:08:02 <TomDN> hook: Before we vote, could we list the disadvantages of qnames? 16:08:28 <tlebo> If you're excluding SADI! 16:08:30 <Zakim> + +44.238.055.aacc 16:08:32 <tlebo> ?! 16:08:40 <TomDN> ... for example, full URIs are not valid values of xs:QName 16:08:54 <tlebo> q+ 16:08:59 <pgroth> ack tlebo 16:09:35 <TomDN> tlebo: This design is currently excluding SADI? 16:09:36 <zednik> q+ 16:09:44 <pgroth> ack zednik 16:09:46 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 16:09:47 <TomDN> hook: you must use a namespace 16:10:11 <tlebo> q+ so is prefix an XML element? 16:10:18 <pgroth> ack tlebo 16:10:28 <TomDN> tlebo: So is prefix an XML element? 16:10:49 <SamCoppens> zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN 16:10:49 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it 16:11:03 <TomDN> ... ignoring the existing XML ways to do this and defining our own 16:11:30 <TomDN> zednik: We didn't go down that path. We use the standard XML constructs 16:11:32 <pgroth> q? 16:11:40 <zednik> q- 16:11:45 <pgroth> Proposed: Adopt qnames for identifiers in PROV-XML 16:11:54 <ivan> +1 16:11:54 <SamCoppens> +1 16:11:56 <TallTed> +1 16:11:58 <zednik> +1 16:11:58 <khalidBelhajjame> +1 16:11:59 <Curt> +1 16:12:02 <hook> +1 16:12:11 <jcheney> +1 16:12:11 <TomDN> +0 (havent read all options) 16:12:13 <dgarijo> +0 (I haven't been following the discussions) 16:12:23 <satya> 0, I have not read it 16:12:30 <pgroth> Accepted: Adopt qnames for identifiers in PROV-XML 16:12:46 <Curt> I summarized the attribute ordering issue here: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Prov-XML_ElementOrdering 16:13:04 <TomDN> pgroth: Next issue is ordering of attributes to support "nice" JAXB 16:13:20 <TomDN> zednik: I think there is consensus now. 16:14:17 <pgroth> q? 16:14:40 <TomDN> ... Initially, the group didn't want to change the schema and work via JAXB mapping/etc. But those options seemed too complex, so Curt and I worked on adding ordering yesterday 16:14:44 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov 16:15:16 <Curt> q+ 16:15:20 <TomDN> ... So it's reasonable to proceed with ordered attributes 16:15:44 <TomDN> Curt: I think it's cleaner and more elegant 16:16:05 <pgroth> ack curt 16:16:16 <pgroth> Proposed: use order attributes in prov-xml 16:16:17 <TomDN> ... If we can change our schema to work with such a widely used tool, it's worth doing 16:16:21 <TomDN> +1 16:16:27 <ivan> +1 16:16:28 <SamCoppens> +1 16:16:29 <zednik> +1 16:16:30 <Curt> +1 16:16:31 <hook> +1 16:16:32 <jcheney> +1 16:16:33 <TallTed> +1 16:16:39 <dgarijo> +1 16:16:56 <pgroth> resolved: use order attributes in prov-xml 16:17:17 <TomDN> pgroth: Last issue was still under discussion 16:17:43 <TomDN> ... How are the xsd files organized and is it appropriate for the use of legacy xml? 16:17:54 <TomDN> zednik: Stian put together a nice page with all options 16:18:01 <Zakim> +??P33 16:18:08 <Zakim> - +44.238.055.aacc 16:18:24 <TomDN> ... We've reorganized the schemas to include the core schema 16:18:35 <Dong> Zakim, ??P33 is me 16:18:35 <Zakim> +Dong; got it 16:19:24 <TomDN> ... Everything seems to be working. There's still some discussion between Luc and Stian on the mailinglist. 16:19:39 <TomDN> Luc: I don't think there is consensus. Still have question. 16:19:49 <zednik> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvXMLNamespaces#Substitution_groups_and_abstract_elements 16:20:18 <TomDN> ... There are schema's out there describing provenance, and we want to be able to include these in PROV-XML 16:20:51 <TomDN> ... The proposed solution with the substitution group seems to require changes to legacy schema's. 16:20:55 <CraigTrim> Zakim, aaaa is me 16:20:55 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it 16:21:01 <TomDN> ... and this is undesirable. 16:21:32 <TomDN> zednik: The substitution groups are meant to include elements that are in the provenance namespace. 16:21:44 <TomDN> ... for everything else we still have xs:any 16:21:56 <pgroth> q? 16:22:03 <TomDN> ... so you can use elements that don't use the prov: namespace 16:22:22 <pgroth> q? 16:22:24 <TomDN> Luc: Ok, thank you for the clarification. 16:22:24 <Luc> q+ 16:22:30 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:22:47 <TomDN> Luc: So, as we were talking about JAXB, does this also work with JAXB? 16:22:56 <TomDN> zednik: yes, the current version works with JAXB. 16:23:04 <pgroth> cool 16:24:22 <TomDN> Luc: So dictionary and mention work as well? 16:24:28 <TomDN> zednik: yes. 16:25:13 <TomDN> Luc: Why do we need a sequence of choice and abstract elements in the document element? 16:25:25 <TomDN> zednik: I think the latest schema might fix that 16:25:29 <TomDN> ... will doublecheck. 16:26:09 <TomDN> pgroth: So are you ok with the current solution, Luc? 16:26:20 <TomDN> Luc: Yes, it seems it's ok now. 16:26:40 <TomDN> pgroth: Seems the issue is resolved now then. 16:27:01 <TomDN> pgroth: To wrap-up, is there anything outstanding now? 16:27:08 <TomDN> zednik: just fixing up the text. 16:27:30 <Luc> q+ 16:27:36 <TomDN> pgroth: Once the text is updated, we can go to internal review. 16:27:37 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:28:07 <TomDN> Luc: We need to make sure to get the PROV-XML reviews back in time for the PR pulication then 16:28:10 <pgroth> Topic: Implementation Report <pgroth> Summary: A draft implementation report was presented. Timetables to PR were discussed. The following timetable was outlined: Review of Implementation Report by the WG week of Feb 11. WG Vote on move to PR at Feb 21 telcon. After that the goal would be to have publication date on March 12th (obviously, hoping that the W3C process goes smoothly). All documents including notes should be staged by March 5. We need to ensure proper review for notes by the WG by that time. 16:28:24 <TomDN> pgroth: Dong and I have been working on the report 16:28:31 <pgroth> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/reports/prov-implementations.html 16:28:38 <TomDN> ... Dong did an impressive amount of work. 16:29:20 <TomDN> ... The report is almost done. Some small stuff remaining to do. 16:30:36 <TomDN> ... We'd like to send out the report for review on Monday, and set up the timetable for publication and going to the next stage. 16:31:28 <Luc> q+ 16:31:29 <TomDN> Ivan: Maybe we can get the votes in by email by the end of next week 16:31:38 <TomDN> ... since there is no telecon next week 16:32:20 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:32:24 <TomDN> Luc: It may be good to try and speed up the process. But we need to allow them to respond/revise. 16:32:30 <dgarijo> there is a vocabulary named Jun Zhao :O 16:32:32 <TomDN> ... after the review. 16:33:03 <Luc> + section 7 16:33:12 <TomDN> Ivan: It looks good. We still need something that says: we met the exit criteria and this is why. 16:33:57 <TomDN> ... We have a lot of implementations, 54, which is very impressive. 16:34:41 <pgroth> everybody keep your enthusiasm up :-) 16:35:10 <TomDN> pgroth: Once we say we want to go to PR, do we need the big long email again? 16:35:21 <TomDN> ivan: yes, just like we did with CR. 16:35:29 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #prov 16:35:31 <TomDN> ... I can help. 16:35:48 <Luc> is it time to think of a publication date, to finalize our documents? 16:36:20 <Luc> q+ 16:36:57 <TomDN> ivan: Am I correct that there is not that much editing left to be done? 16:37:06 <TomDN> pgroth: Just PROV-Constraints 16:37:13 <TomDN> jcheney: will do that tomorrow 16:37:24 <TomDN> ivan: excellent. 16:37:28 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:38:27 <TomDN> Luc: If we are going to vote by email, and the outcome it positive, we want to be ready for PR as soon as possible. So we need the URLs with the publication date. 16:39:22 <TomDN> Luc: So I suggest that Ivan starts the process to get the date agreed. 16:40:04 <TomDN> ivan: either March 7th or 12th 16:40:36 <TomDN> pgroth: I think we should aim for the 12th 16:40:47 <TomDN> ivan: yes, that seems without risk. 16:41:38 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 16:43:56 <TomDN> Luc: so the url's? 16:44:31 <TomDN> ivan: I think it's safe that the editors start preparing the documents for 2013.03.12 as date 16:44:43 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a] 16:45:50 <Luc> can we check all notes will be ready then? 16:45:52 <TomDN> pgroth: For health and safety reasons of half the chairs, we should ask the webmaster for the date :) 16:47:27 <TomDN> ivan: will do 16:47:59 <TomDN> ivan: Do note: what we send out for PR is the final document. So be sure to spellcheck etc. and be 100% sure 16:48:11 <TomDN> +q to ask if this also goes for the final notes 16:48:22 <tlebo> so, when are the PR drafts finalized? 16:48:25 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me 16:48:25 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted 16:48:27 <pgroth> ack TomDN 16:48:27 <Zakim> TomDN, you wanted to ask if this also goes for the final notes 16:48:28 <pgroth> 16:49:09 <TomDN> TomDN: Can we still touch the notes after we send out the PRs? 16:49:10 <dgarijo> ok! 16:49:25 <Luc> do we have time to review those that still need review? 16:49:26 <TomDN> pgroth: yes, but we'd like the final version of the notes on the 12th 16:49:36 <pgroth> action: paul to remind note editors about March 12 deadline 16:49:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-164 - Remind note editors about March 12 deadline [on Paul Groth - due 2013-02-14]. 16:49:43 <TomDN> ... We will send out a note via email about this 16:49:54 <TomDN> Zakim. mute me 16:50:25 <TomDN> ivan: So april 23rd will probably be the final final final final date for the notes as well. 16:50:29 <dgarijo> +q 16:50:30 <Luc> q+ 16:50:35 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:50:57 <TomDN> Luc: I want to make sure that we have the time to get all notes ready by March 12th 16:51:08 <TomDN> ... Some still need review 16:51:20 <TomDN> ... for example PROV-XML, maybe PROV-AQ, PROV-DC, ... 16:51:52 <TomDN> ivan: There's no last call for notes, so the 12th is a WD publication, so April 23rd is the final date 16:52:04 <TomDN> Luc: but some reviewers blocked the release of PROV-AQ 16:52:17 <dgarijo> -q 16:52:21 <TomDN> ... and we need a vote for the synchronized release of the notes 16:52:33 <TomDN> ... So we need an appropriate amount of time. 16:53:19 <TomDN> ... Will we have enough time? 16:53:23 <satya> sorry, I have to leave 16:53:28 <TomDN> pgroth: We have 4 weeks to complete reviews 16:53:30 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 16:54:02 <TomDN> ... PROV-XML looks almost done, PROV-DC we will hear about next, and PROV-AQ will probably be done in time. 16:54:37 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DC <pgroth> Summary: Daniel gave an update on PROV-DC. Has addressed most of the issues from the review although there are a couple that remained that need to be resolved. Will continue work on this the week of Feb 25. 16:54:49 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/AnswersToProvDCReviewers 16:55:06 <TomDN> dgarijo: update on PROV-DC. Been working on response to reviews and edits in the document 16:55:23 <TomDN> ... Raised new issues for the remaining things to do. 16:55:35 <TomDN> ... Main issues are summarized on wikipage 16:56:19 <TomDN> ... about dct:isVersionOf, we have enough material to discuss with dct people. 16:56:41 <TomDN> pgroth: Would like review now or after issues are resolved? 16:57:02 <pgroth> q? 16:57:21 <TomDN> dgarijo: Would like time to finish the issues. But if someone wants to have a look, be my guest. People can also answer in comment to the wikipage 16:57:33 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dc-note/dc-note.html 16:57:58 <pgroth> q? 16:58:32 <tlebo> when is the dead deadline for the implementation report? 16:58:37 <TomDN> pgroth: OK thanks. We still have time for extra implementations. So submit! 16:58:50 <TomDN> +q to ask about implementations on Notes 16:59:00 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me 16:59:00 <Zakim> TomDN was not muted, TomDN 16:59:45 <TomDN> TomDN: Where can we put implementations of notes? 16:59:47 <pgroth> ack TomDN 16:59:47 <Zakim> TomDN, you wanted to ask about implementations on Notes 16:59:51 <TomDN> pgroth: On the implementation wiki page 17:00:00 <dgarijo> bbye 17:00:02 <Zakim> -tlebo 17:00:03 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 17:00:05 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb 17:00:06 <Zakim> -jcheney 17:00:07 <Zakim> -TallTed 17:00:07 <Dong> bye 17:00:08 <Zakim> -Ivan 17:00:08 <Zakim> -dgarijo 17:00:10 <Zakim> -pgroth 17:00:14 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 17:00:15 <Zakim> -TomDN 17:00:19 <TomDN> bye 17:00:51 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public 17:00:55 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes 17:00:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-minutes.html pgroth 17:00:59 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon 17:00:59 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 17:01:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Ivan, dgarijo, Curt_Tilmes, TomDN, +1.818.749.aaaa, TallTed, tlebo, +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, 17:01:00 <Zakim> ... +44.238.055.aacc, SamCoppens, Dong, CraigTrim 17:01:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:01:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-minutes.html trackbot 17:01:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 17:01:08 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-actions.rdf : 17:01:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: paul to remind note editors about March 12 deadline  17:01:08 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-prov-irc#T16-49-36 # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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