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Chatlog 2012-10-11
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14:52:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:52:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/11-prov-irc 14:52:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:52:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:52:33 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:52:33 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 14:52:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:52:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:52:34 <trackbot> Date: 11 October 2012 14:52:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:52:47 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.10.10 14:53:47 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 14:53:55 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau 14:54:10 <Luc> Topic: admin <luc>Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved. 14:57:24 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:57:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:57:57 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 14:58:05 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call? 14:58:21 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:58:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller] 14:58:35 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started 14:58:44 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:58:44 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 14:59:38 <Zakim> +Luc 14:59:47 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 14:59:48 <ivan> ivan has joined #prov 14:59:52 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes 15:00:08 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov 15:00:31 <ivan> zakim, code? 15:00:31 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan 15:00:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 15:00:42 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:00:42 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:00:42 <Luc> hi I am looking for a scribe, thanks 15:00:43 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:00:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:00:45 <Luc> hi I am looking for a scribe, thanks 15:00:59 <hook> hook has joined #prov 15:01:00 <Luc> dong? 15:01:02 <Zakim> +ivan 15:01:18 <Luc> @dong, can you scribe? 15:01:25 <satya> satya has joined #prov 15:01:38 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 15:01:50 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ivan, Satya_Sahoo 15:01:59 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 15:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aaaa 15:02:20 <Luc> scribe: satya 15:02:41 <Zakim> +jcheney 15:02:42 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 15:02:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:03:00 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 15:03:31 <Zakim> +Dong 15:03:35 <Luc> proposed: to approve oct 04, 2012 minutes 15:03:46 <ivan> +1 15:03:49 <smiles> 0 15:03:51 <Curt> +1 15:03:53 <hook> +1 15:03:58 <Dong> @luc: sorry, just dialed in 15:04:04 <jcheney> +1 15:04:05 <Dong> +1 15:04:20 <Luc> accepted: oct 04, 2012 minutes 15:04:38 <satya> Luc: Open Actions 15:04:46 <Zakim> +??P1 15:04:46 <ivan> issue-446? 15:04:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-446 -- prov:involvee not documented in PROV-O -- open 15:04:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/446 15:04:54 <satya> Luc: Action on Daniel regarding Issue 446 15:05:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 15:05:06 <satya> Luc: Daniel not on call 15:05:15 <satya> Luc: Action on Tim still open 15:05:27 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov 15:05:31 <Luc> @stian? 15:05:41 <satya> Luc: Action on Stian still open 15:05:57 <satya> Luc: Action on Paul to revise Exit criteria - completed 15:06:03 <Luc> topic: CR Exit Criteria 15:06:09 <satya> Luc: Next topic: PROV Exit Criteria <luc> Summary: Paul revised the CR Exit Criteria following last week's call (http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria). They were discussed and minor changes suggested. The group is invited to review them and provide feedback. Dong also drafted the process for prov-constraints implementors (http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html). Feedback is also sought. 15:06:20 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria 15:06:47 <satya> Paul: New set of exit criteria proposed based on comments during last call 15:07:05 <satya> Paul: Exit criteria for PROV-O and PROV-N are same 15:07:23 <Luc> 'provenance feature' ? is same as 'feature'? 15:07:26 <satya> Paul: Reviewing the exit criteria points 15:07:34 <ivan> q+ 15:08:36 <Luc> q? 15:08:41 <satya> Paul: Notes at the end of the page describes the type of implementations 15:09:38 <satya> Paul: Features for models in the implementation are concepts in PROV-O and constraints in PROV-Constraints 15:10:03 <Luc> q? 15:10:08 <satya> Paul: Evidence to illustrate that the conceptual model was useful for the implementation 15:10:12 <Luc> ack iv 15:10:44 <satya> Ivan: Clarify that two implementations should be independent (not from same department etc.) 15:11:19 <satya> Luc: Developing two toolboxes - would they qualify to be independent? 15:11:31 <pgroth> +Q 15:11:32 <Luc> q? 15:11:39 <satya> Ivan: Depends on the relation between the toolbox and the implementation 15:12:37 <satya> Paul: Downloaded the toolbox from Luc at VU Amsterdam - modified by student, does this qualify? 15:12:58 <Luc> it is your student who decide which feature to use, and not the toolbox! 15:13:06 <jun> jun has joined #prov 15:13:30 <satya> Ivan: Depends on the type of modifications 15:13:58 <Zakim> +??P27 15:14:02 <Luc> q? 15:14:06 <Luc> ack pg 15:14:12 <satya> Ivan: The W3C directors need to be convinced regarding independence of the implementations 15:14:37 <hook> +q 15:14:49 <satya> Luc: Confusing to use different terms - use "feature" consistently 15:14:52 <satya> Paul: Agree 15:15:05 <zednik> q+ 15:15:17 <satya> Luc: Relevant to distinguish between types of implementations 15:15:30 <satya> Paul: Already cover that in the questionaire 15:15:54 <Luc> ack hook 15:15:55 <hook> http://semanticweb.org/wiki/RDFReactor 15:16:19 <pgroth> that's definitely an implemenatiaon 15:16:52 <satya> Hook: Leveraged a tool to auto-generate provenance trace(?) - clarify if it is an implementation or data mining app? 15:17:07 <satya> Paul: It should qualify as an implementation 15:17:29 <Luc> q? 15:17:46 <Luc> is there a requirement to make the code available? 15:17:55 <Zakim> + +1.713.754.aabb 15:18:00 <pgroth> no 15:18:03 <Luc> ok 15:18:12 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 15:18:14 <pgroth> the only thing is that you right a report 15:18:22 <pgroth> s/right/write/ 15:18:30 <Luc> q? 15:18:32 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV 15:18:37 <satya> Hook: The implementation ensures that the traces are PROV-O compliant 15:19:26 <pgroth> +q 15:19:27 <satya> StephanZ: Add a point to questionaire to describe the tool used in the implementation 15:19:32 <Luc> q? 15:19:33 <satya> Luc: Agree 15:19:35 <Luc> ack ze 15:20:11 <Luc> ack pg 15:20:40 <satya> Paul: Do we have question in questionaire to explicitly describe use of PROV? 15:20:51 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov 15:21:18 <satya> Luc: What is evidence of the conceptual model being helpful 15:21:35 <Luc> q? 15:21:59 <satya> Paul: Self-reported description in the implementation documentation 15:22:03 <satya> Luc: What is the next step? 15:22:52 <satya> Paul: Up for discussion till next telcon 15:23:24 <satya> Paul: Dong will have example documentation for submission process of implementations 15:23:44 <satya> Luc: What documentation needs to be created? 15:24:02 <satya> Ivan: Current documentation/wiki by Paul is fine 15:24:06 <hook> regarding decoupling models being helpful: the ISO community also takes this approach of decoupling models from encodings. has been quite useful, particularly for ISO 19115:2003 Geographic information -- Metadata http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=26020 15:24:27 <satya> Luc: Cataloging of test cases 15:24:33 <Dong> The draft test process here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html 15:25:29 <satya> Paul: Dong has set of test cases available on web site - implementation will output text file, which will be evaluated (pass/fail) 15:25:38 <Luc> q? 15:25:40 <pgroth> thanks Dong! 15:26:09 <satya> Luc: Is this approach used only for constraints? 15:26:30 <Luc> q? 15:26:36 <satya> Paul: Yes, for other features we will use Stephan's questionnaire 15:27:02 <pgroth> other than me and you 15:27:03 <pgroth> ? 15:27:03 <satya> Luc: Feedback from implementors of constraints? 15:27:12 <jcheney> not sure i'll have time, paolo is interested 15:27:34 <jcheney> reza had mentioned at f2f3 that oracle is interested; his recent email seems to back this up 15:27:43 <jun> q+ 15:27:45 <satya> Luc: Concerned that WG may not have enough implementations 15:27:46 <pgroth> +q 15:28:06 <Luc> q? 15:28:41 <Luc> ack jun 15:28:56 <satya> Jun: Has implemented some of the constraints - uses SPARQL queries to create collection of test cases for identifying violations of constraints 15:29:07 <pgroth> yes 15:29:15 <CraigTrim> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:29:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ivan, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aaaa, jcheney, [IPcaller], Dong, ??P1, [IPcaller.a], ??P27, +1.713.754.aabb 15:29:31 <pgroth> good point 15:29:38 <jun> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html 15:29:48 <satya> Jun: Not sure about some of the points in Table 2 of constraint testing process 15:30:08 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim: zakim, I am aabb 15:30:15 <CraigTrim> zakim, I am aabb 15:30:15 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it 15:30:19 <Luc> shouldn't identifiers be uris? 15:30:31 <satya> Paul: Agree, some of the points need to be reviewed 15:30:45 <Dong> Thanks Paul 15:30:57 <Luc> q? 15:31:14 <Dong> The 2nd column is meant to list the constraints each test case cover 15:31:33 <satya> Luc: Need to clarify the naming issue (?) 15:31:59 <pgroth> @jun excited that you are doing the constraints 15:32:00 <Luc> q? 15:32:05 <Luc> ack pg 15:32:36 <satya> Paul: Do not intend to implement all the constraints 15:32:56 <Luc> q? 15:32:57 <Dong> BTW, building a complete test suite takes significant effort, I'd like to invite anyone who has constructed test cases for constraints to share them with the group 15:32:59 <satya> Paul: Hence, need more implementors 15:33:25 <satya> Jun: Implementation is in context of the Workflow4Ever project 15:33:47 <pgroth> ack 15:33:49 <pgroth> sorry 15:33:56 <hook> hook has joined #prov 15:34:01 <Luc> q? 15:34:05 <satya> Luc: Review the document and provide feedback 15:34:10 <Luc> topic: prov-dm issues <luc>Summary: Answers to ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520, ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 were circulated during the week and these issues were confirmed to be resolved. We then reviewed and approved the proposed split informative/normative for the PROV-DM document. It followed the guidance given to editors two weeks ago at the teleconference. It was confirmed that we want to keep the table in Appendix as normative, since it states which prov-dm terms maps to which prov-o/prov-n term. It was recognized that this table does not (and need not to) provide all the details required for the mapping. It was suggested that a similar table will also be required for prov-xml. Finally, it was discussed how the UML diagram in Figure 8 has been revised, no longer making explicit inheritance from Influence, so as to address an external comment (ISSUE-519 and ISSUE-523). The group is invited to review the changes during the coming week. 15:34:18 <satya> Luc: Next item: PROV-DM issues 15:34:47 <Luc> ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520, ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 15:34:56 <satya> Luc: all feedback have been incorporated, confirm that the group is happy with the following issues: 15:35:17 <ivan> ISSUE-530? 15:35:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-530 -- Data Model Section 5.7.2 (Table 6) -- open 15:35:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/530 15:35:22 <ivan> Issue-520? 15:35:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-520 -- Data Model Section 5.3.1 -- open 15:35:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/520 15:35:29 <ivan> ISSUE-522? 15:35:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-522 -- Data Model Section 5.3.4 -- open 15:35:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/522 15:35:37 <ivan> ISSue-509? 15:35:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-509 -- Data Model Figure 5 -- open 15:35:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/509 15:35:41 <ivan> Issue-526? 15:35:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-526 -- Data Model Section 5.5.2 -- open 15:35:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/526 15:35:46 <ivan> issue-502? 15:35:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-502 -- Data Model Section 2.1.2 -- open 15:35:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/502 15:35:57 <satya> Luc: Confirm there is agreement on this issues 15:36:37 <satya> SimonM: Yes 15:36:47 <Luc> proposed: ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520, ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 are confirmed to be resolved 15:37:02 <jcheney> +1 15:37:02 <smiles> +1 15:37:03 <ivan> +1 15:37:09 <Dong> +1 15:37:23 <zednik> +1 15:37:27 <jun> +1 15:37:31 <MacTed> +1 15:37:42 <Luc> accepted: ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520, ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 are confirmed to be resolved 15:37:54 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0051.html 15:37:59 <satya> Luc: Next item: Normative sections in PROV-DM 15:38:11 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/diff/998d228b4a8e/model/prov-dm.html 15:38:53 <satya> Luc: Introduced a new section on compliance in the document and identifies normative sections 15:39:07 <Luc> q? 15:39:51 <satya> Luc: Should Appendix A be normative? 15:39:59 <Luc> q? 15:40:01 <ivan> q+ 15:40:19 <satya> Ivan: This should be normative 15:40:23 <Luc> q? 15:40:37 <Luc> ack iv 15:40:38 <pgroth> q+ to ask about namespace 15:40:43 <ivan> ack ivan 15:40:50 <jcheney> q+ 15:40:59 <satya> Paul: Should namespace be normative? 15:41:04 <satya> Luc: It is 15:41:08 <ivan> ack pgroth 15:41:08 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about namespace 15:41:24 <pgroth> 5.74 15:41:26 <pgroth> got it 15:42:06 <Luc> ack jc 15:42:10 <Luc> q? 15:42:10 <pgroth> q+ 15:42:14 <satya> JamesC: Not sure if the table is enough to ensure that users are following it 15:42:36 <satya> Ivan: The documents (PROV-O) have the details 15:42:48 <Dong> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#cross-references-to-prov-o-and-prov-n 15:44:34 <satya> JamesC: What instructions are present for implementors? 15:45:00 <satya> Ivan: No users will implement the mappings 15:45:18 <satya> JamesC: Ok, was just wondering if there are additional requirements for implementation 15:45:23 <satya> Ivan: No 15:45:24 <pgroth> q+ 15:45:40 <pgroth> q+ 15:45:59 <satya> Luc: Table is relevant for mapping from one serialization to another 15:46:14 <satya> Ivan: Yes (should not be present in the exit criteria) 15:46:24 <jcheney> OK, so I'm happy with "this table is the starting point", as long as it's clear that it's not (meant to be) a complete spec of the mapping 15:47:00 <jcheney> Perhaps PROV-XML should have such a table too if it doesn't already 15:47:04 <satya> Paul: Having this section as normative helps the users 15:47:09 <Luc> proposed: to accept the split normative/informative in the current editor's draft of prov-dm 15:47:12 <ivan> +1 to James 15:47:13 <ivan> +1 15:47:15 <jcheney> +1 15:47:15 <satya> +1 15:47:28 <Curt> +1 15:47:30 <Dong> +1 15:47:31 <pgroth> +1 15:47:32 <CraigTrim> +1 15:47:37 <MacTed> +1 15:47:48 <zednik> +1 15:48:00 <Luc> accepted: the split normative/informative in the current editor's draft of prov-dm 15:48:14 <satya> Ivan/Luc: Have a mapping table in PROV-XML 15:48:36 <ivan> great satya 15:49:00 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0050.html 15:49:11 <satya> Paul: Updates on the DC and XML in the mailing list 15:49:32 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0109.html 15:49:36 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0113.html 15:49:44 <pgroth> @Curt/hook/stephan - can you send a brief update on the list on the status of xml? 15:49:45 <Luc> ISSUE-519 and ISSUE-523 (Influence Inheritance) 15:49:52 <satya> Luc: Next item: Original issues raised by Robert 15:50:56 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aaaa 15:52:08 <satya> Luc: Discussing the raised issue, added an extra table for the relations (influencer and influencee) 15:52:09 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/diff/9fb92e012cec/model/prov-dm.html 15:52:18 <Luc> q? 15:52:19 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/b276b292cd9d/model/prov-dm.html#component3 15:52:29 <Luc> ack pg 15:53:24 <pgroth> q+ 15:53:45 <satya> Luc: Early feedback can be incorporated before next review 15:54:12 <pgroth> ack pgroth 15:54:53 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(e2,e1) implies wasInfluencedBy(e2,e1) 15:55:11 <ivan> q+ 15:55:28 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/b276b292cd9d/model/prov-dm.html#mapping-relations-to-influence-table 15:56:48 <satya> Ivan: This is basically a subPropertyOf correspondence between the properties 15:56:54 <Luc> q? 15:56:57 <Luc> ack ivan 15:56:57 <satya> Luc: Yes 15:56:59 <ivan> ack ivan 15:57:12 <satya> Luc: Feedback on the proposal 15:57:27 <ivan> q+ 15:57:50 <satya> Ivan: Is this an editorial change for clarification 15:57:53 <satya> Luc: Yes 15:58:13 <Luc> q? 15:58:16 <Luc> ack iva 15:58:38 <Luc> topic: prov-xml <luc>Summary: Stephan briefed the group on progress on the prov-xml schema and associated document. 15:58:46 <satya> Luc: Next item: PROV-XML 15:58:48 <pgroth> next week 15:59:41 <satya> StephanZ: Discussed feedback from implementations (e.g. Luc) and updated schema 16:00:25 <satya> StephanZ: Created tools to build automated html pages from concepts descriptions (?) 16:00:46 <satya> StephanZ: Updates based on feedback progressing smoothly 16:01:16 <Luc> q? 16:01:48 <ivan> thanks to all, bye 16:01:52 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 16:01:53 <jun> bye 16:01:54 <Zakim> -ivan 16:01:55 <Zakim> -CraigTrim 16:01:56 <Zakim> -??P27 16:01:59 <Dong> thanks, bye 16:01:59 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 16:01:59 <jcheney> bye 16:02:00 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:02:00 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 16:02:03 <Zakim> -jcheney 16:02:06 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a] 16:02:18 <Zakim> -??P1 16:02:26 <Zakim> -pgroth 16:02:29 <Zakim> -Luc 16:02:40 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 16:02:44 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/11-prov-minutes.html Luc 16:02:47 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 16:02:47 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help #16:02:50 <Zakim> -Luc.a 16:02:52 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended 16:02:52 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, ivan, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aaaa, jcheney, [IPcaller], +1.713.754.aabb, CraigTrim # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000333