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Chatlog 2012-08-02
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14:49:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:49:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-irc 14:49:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:49:30 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:49:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:49:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:49:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:49:33 <trackbot> Date: 02 August 2012 14:49:36 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:49:36 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 14:49:52 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.08.02 14:50:30 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth 14:50:44 <pgroth> Scribe: Daniel Garijo 14:50:50 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public 14:50:56 <pgroth> Regrets: Luc Moreau 14:57:17 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:57:24 <Zakim> +??P2 14:57:31 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P2 is me 14:57:31 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 14:58:13 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov 14:58:21 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 14:59:09 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 14:59:19 <Zakim> +??P8 14:59:56 <hook> hook has joined #prov 14:59:58 <jun> jun has joined #prov 15:00:07 <Zakim> +??P10 15:00:13 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 15:00:18 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa 15:00:18 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes 15:00:19 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 15:00:24 <jun> zakim, ??p10 is me 15:00:24 <Zakim> +jun; got it 15:00:34 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb 15:00:38 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me 15:00:38 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it 15:00:42 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aacc 15:00:47 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aadd 15:00:50 <TomDN> Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN 15:00:50 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it 15:00:53 <tlebo> zakim, I am aadd 15:00:53 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 15:01:04 <Zakim> -tlebo 15:01:14 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:01:14 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:01:15 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:01:33 <Zakim> +??P17 15:01:35 <Zakim> +tlebo 15:01:35 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 15:01:35 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 15:01:38 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 15:01:49 <tlebo> I'll scribe 15:01:55 <pgroth> Topic: Admin <pgroth> Summary: The group welcomed Ivan as the new W3C staff contact and he introduced himself. 15:02:01 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-07-26 15:02:01 <tlebo> scribe: tlebo 15:02:10 <pgroth> Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon 15:02:17 <smiles> +1 15:02:18 <TomDN> +1 15:02:18 <Curt> +1 15:02:19 <zednik> +1 15:02:19 <tlebo> proposal: accept minutes 15:02:26 <jun> +1 15:02:27 <hook> +1 15:02:39 <SamCoppens> +1 15:02:41 <tlebo> +1 15:02:45 <stain> +1 15:02:53 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon 15:03:19 <tlebo> topic: action items 15:03:38 <tlebo> paul: is still working on his action 15:03:50 <tlebo> ... Ivan is joining the WG as W3C POC 15:04:08 <tlebo> ivan: hi! 15:04:24 <tlebo> ... sandro will be doing a bit in Aug, but Ivan will be around and back from vacation 15:04:24 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 15:04:36 <tlebo> ... working through all of our documents now. 15:04:52 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aaee 15:05:00 <tlebo> paul: please sign up for scribes 15:05:03 <ivan> zakim, who is here? 15:05:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P8, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, +44.789.470.aacc, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, +44.131.467.aaee 15:05:04 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens 15:05:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro 15:05:09 <pgroth> q? 15:05:10 <tlebo> ... aob? 15:05:19 <satya> satya has joined #prov 15:05:29 <tlebo> ivan: get unknowns identified 15:05:42 <jcheney> zakim, aaee is me 15:05:42 <tlebo> paul: who is P8? 15:05:47 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it 15:06:03 <smiles> or me 15:06:05 <jun> not me 15:06:14 <smiles> zakim, P8 is probably me 15:06:17 <stain> Zakim, +44.789.470.aacc is me 15:06:21 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 15:06:23 <Zakim> sorry, smiles, I do not understand your question 15:06:24 <stain> he knew me last week! 15:06:25 <Zakim> +stain; got it 15:06:26 <smiles> zakim, ??P8 is probably me 15:06:30 <tlebo> 818 is san fran 15:06:31 <Zakim> +smiles?; got it 15:06:31 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-Constraints <pgroth> Summary: Several reviews have been supplied for PROV-Constraints. Stian will have his done this week. James believes that all comments so far can be succesfully addressed. The plan is to deliver a new version early next week for a Last Call vote at the next telecon. Two specific issues were discussed. The group agreed that issue 458 was addressed by leaving out the constraint making wasInfluencedBy irreflexive. The group discussed whether there should be an inference to say that any subtypes of agents were also entities. The group felt that adding this constraint would need more discussion and given the timetable should not be added. 15:07:03 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 15:07:10 <tlebo> jcheney: read reviews as they came in. They seem to identify things that we can fix easily. 15:07:12 <pgroth> james? 15:07:16 <tlebo> ... not sig technical changes. 15:07:16 <pgroth> i lost my connection.. 15:07:35 <Zakim> +??P9 15:07:41 <Zakim> +??P22 15:07:43 <tlebo> q+ to ask what the constraints timeline is 15:07:44 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P9 is me 15:07:45 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 15:07:57 <tlebo> go ahead, James 15:08:02 <dgarijo> is there a scribe? I can scribe. 15:08:08 <tlebo> @dgarijo you take scribe 15:08:11 <Zakim> -pgroth 15:08:11 <tlebo> scribe: dgarijo 15:08:13 <ivan> zakim, who is here? 15:08:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see smiles?, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, stain, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo, ??P22 15:08:15 <dgarijo> ok 15:08:16 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens 15:08:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, satya, jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro 15:08:28 <stain> I am almost finished today 15:08:29 <dgarijo> jcheney: waiting for 1 outstanding review from stian 15:08:36 <stain> typing in my evil email.. 15:08:37 <tlebo> q? 15:08:44 <ivan> zakim, ??P22 is pgroth 15:08:44 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 15:09:10 <dgarijo> ... plan is review things early next week in order to be able to have a vote next meeting 15:09:19 <dgarijo> ... and just worry about minor stuff from there 15:09:26 <pgroth> q? 15:09:31 <tlebo> so, we're voting on this next Thus? 15:09:46 <dgarijo> tlebo: are we voting on this next thursday? 15:09:49 <dgarijo> pgroth: yes 15:10:07 <dgarijo> tlebo: ok, I'll look for responses next week. 15:10:19 <dgarijo> tlebo: I'll be looking for those 15:10:25 <pgroth> q? 15:10:32 <dgarijo> pgroth: in my review there were no blockers 15:10:34 <tlebo> @jcheney they're mini blockers :-) 15:10:42 <tlebo> q- 15:10:45 <stain> I think my review has a tiny blocker .. :-/ 15:10:48 <stain> but editorial 15:10:48 <dgarijo> pgroth: Issue 458 15:10:49 <ivan> issue-458? 15:10:49 <trackbot> ISSUE-458 -- wasInfluencedBy is not irreflexive -- raised 15:10:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458 15:11:01 <dgarijo> ... is influence reflexive or not 15:11:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458 15:11:24 <pgroth> yes 15:11:27 <tlebo> I was the biggest proponent of irreflexive, and I'm no longer protesting to removing it. 15:11:32 <pgroth> q? 15:11:38 <smiles> I agree with removing the constraint 15:11:40 <dgarijo> jcheney: does anybody objects to removing that constraint? 15:11:40 <tlebo> (so it's all good) 15:11:45 <dgarijo> ... OK, closed 15:12:11 <tlebo> @dgarijo "accepted" is the keyword for a resolution 15:12:24 <dgarijo> @tlebo, thanks. 15:12:31 <pgroth> Agent(ex:Luc,[prov;type='prov:Person']) Activity(ex:Luc) 15:12:46 <TomDN> +q 15:12:55 <TomDN> zakim, unmute me 15:12:55 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted 15:13:01 <pgroth> q? 15:13:06 <dgarijo> pgroth: the other issue was agent being an activity as well. Should we allow that in the constraints? 15:13:25 <stain> would that imply also Activity(ex:Luc,[prov:type='prov:Person']) 15:13:44 <dgarijo> tom: I haven't followed the email about it, but agent can also be an entity. 15:14:04 <dgarijo> pgroth: if you assert that Luc is an entity, it can't be an activity. 15:14:14 <smiles> q+ 15:14:24 <pgroth> ack TomDN 15:14:35 <dgarijo> jcheney: I'm agnostic. It won't break anything to allow people to say that. 15:14:35 <tlebo> from the hip, I think we shouldn't add this. 15:14:45 <stain> agent(ex:workflowEngine, [prov:type='prov:SoftwareAgent']) activity(ex:workflowEngine) would probably make more sense in some cases 15:15:04 <dgarijo> smiles: I agree with what Tom says. If an agent is a person, then we can infer it's a person. 15:15:05 <pgroth> ack smiles 15:15:32 <dgarijo> pgroth: that will imply that all persons are entities. 15:15:43 <TomDN> it could be an inference, and normalization would always produce agent(Luc, [prov:Person]) -> entity(Luc) 15:16:06 <stain> used(food, ex:Luc) wasAssociatedWith(ex:cooking, ex:Luc) wasGeneratedBy(ex:food, ex:cooking) 15:16:22 <dgarijo> pgroth: if we want it, then we could add that inference. 15:16:25 <pgroth> q? 15:16:48 <dgarijo> tlebo: surprised of the proposal. Is it an issue that went through the list 15:16:49 <dgarijo> ? 15:16:52 <stain> yes, should be a proper issue! 15:17:11 <jcheney> q+ 15:17:36 <dgarijo> pgroth: we can discuss it on the list, but I was wondering if we could just drop it or discuss it a bit here. 15:17:41 <pgroth> ack jcheney 15:17:41 <stain> can animals be activities? lifeforms? 15:17:43 <TomDN> machines shouldn't be activities either... 15:18:13 <satya> @TomDN, assuming that machines are "hardware" 15:18:48 <tlebo> why single out Person? Why are Organizations allowed to be Activities? 15:18:48 <stain> a human is in some sense just a system of biological activities working together 15:18:53 <dgarijo> jcheney: we should be removing things as much as possible. 15:19:22 <Curt> There was a use case of something like a "working group" which is both an agent and an activity (I disagree with that) 15:19:25 <dgarijo> pgroth: even if we don't include something like that I don't know if we can add this after last call. 15:19:33 <dgarijo> pgroth: Ivan, can we do that. 15:19:44 <dgarijo> Ivan: that would be a technical change. 15:19:54 <stain> Curt: but then this all falls back to "are there *any* agents that can be activities?" 15:20:01 <dgarijo> ... but constraints is not in last call. 15:20:03 <stain> @Curt 15:21:12 <dgarijo> pgroth: so I think james is right. This is going to open up a lot of discussion and given our time line, we should not add it yet. 15:21:13 <pgroth> q? 15:21:16 <Curt> +1 pgroth 15:21:23 <smiles> +1 15:21:24 <tlebo> @pgroth that's a good response: add the explicit type Entity 15:21:28 <stain> I think it would not cause any problems to not say something rather than to say something. It does not affect anything else in the constraints if the prov:Person is an activity or not, and PROV-Constraints is not attempting to model the world, just how processes and things are modelled in a sane way 15:21:30 <TomDN> @pgroth: +1, could we add that as a remark? 15:21:48 <dgarijo> ... if anybody wants to assert that persons are not activities, then they can assert it. 15:22:00 <dgarijo> +1 to pgroth. 15:22:20 <dgarijo> jcheney: I will review questions. I don't have anything more specific 15:22:28 <pgroth> Topic: Prox-xml <pgroth> Summary: Stephan gave an update. All constructs for prov-xml have now be assigned in order to produce examples by Aug 15. Stephan will give an update as to whether more help is required on this task next week as he works through the examples. 15:23:10 <Curt> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aon9DSj-WtGqdHJocGtPRGp5MTItbEhLX09sN1NxVVE#gid=0 15:23:22 <dgarijo> szednik: We are going to try to have xml examples by august 15th. 15:23:35 <dgarijo> ... hopefully next week. 15:23:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: any additional help? 15:24:04 <dgarijo> szednik: I'll be able to say next week, when I've taken a stab at it 15:24:17 <pgroth> q? 15:24:31 <Curt> (anyone who wants the doc, just request it through google docs and stephan will approve) 15:24:35 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DC <pgroth> Summary: Daniel asked for reviews of the recently released dublin core - prov mappings editor's draft. Sam, Simon, Tom and Ivan agreed to look at it. Additionally, Daniel agreed to add a link to the turtle file that encodes these mappings. They can then be placed in the ns namespace. 15:24:41 <pgroth> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/6b795ed2e6c9/dc-note/Overview.html 15:24:45 <ivan> (Curt, I did it) 15:25:05 <tlebo> dgarijo: releaed it last week into hg 15:25:20 <tlebo> ... asking those to reviewed last time to see if they agree to the changes. 15:25:29 <tlebo> .. please raise issues 15:25:33 <tlebo> ... document is not long. 15:25:49 <tlebo> pgroth: reviewers? 15:25:53 <SamCoppens> I will 15:25:54 <smiles> I will review it 15:25:57 <TomDN> I started on a review 15:26:04 <dgarijo> thanks!! 15:26:14 <ivan> I will also look at it 15:26:15 <ivan> q+ 15:26:22 <pgroth> ack ivan 15:26:56 <tlebo> ivan: turtle file to put into /ns? 15:27:26 <tlebo> dgarijo: the turtle files is in hg, will send the link. 15:27:38 <tlebo> pgroth: add link to turtle file? 15:28:08 <tlebo> ivan: where to put final version of turtle file? 15:29:00 <dgarijo> dgarijo: I will add the links to the turtel files of each example in the repository. They are there but not linked in the document. 15:29:01 <tlebo> pgroth: the WG also needs to make the full concat for prov.owl with prov-o in it. 15:29:10 <pgroth> q? 15:29:16 <tlebo> @pgroth me too :-) 15:29:26 <pgroth> Topic: Handling Comments <pgroth> Summary: Ivan gave an update on handling public comments, in particular, what constitutes a technical change. Essentially, it is a judgement call but the technical design should not change. There was a particular question around renaming a construct in PROV-O, this is not considered a technical change as it does not impact the design. The process for tracking public comments was discussed. Ivan suggested that perhaps creating new products would be a better approach. However, the group agreed that the current process was ok. 15:29:40 <dgarijo> pgroth: we discussed last week how to handle public comments 15:30:03 <dgarijo> pgroth: there was a question about what is a technical comment 15:30:24 <dgarijo> ... ivan and sandro talked to thomas and have an update. 15:31:02 <dgarijo> ivan: the general point is to remind that the last call means that the design is done. Renaming is an editorial change. 15:31:18 <dgarijo> ... I don't see any problem in this particular case. 15:31:40 <dgarijo> ... if this change came when we were in CR it would be more problematic. 15:31:41 <pgroth> q? 15:31:49 <tlebo> ivan: changing property name is an editorial change. sees no problem with this. Will need to be more cautious as we go further. naame change in CR is impossible b/c it breaks implementations. 15:32:04 <ivan> s/naame/name/ 15:32:24 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Tracking_Public_Comments 15:32:53 <dgarijo> pgroth: the idea behind this wiki page is that we will create a new issue for each comment we receive, to keep good track of them. 15:33:22 <dgarijo> ... add the issues in the wikipage as well. Is that good enough? 15:34:21 <dgarijo> ivan: that will work. Each group decides how to handle this themselves: raise a separate product to deal with comments, to mantain a single table in the wiki, etc. 15:34:37 <tlebo> having a new product seems to make sense, the "dm/o/paq" distinctions are less important now. 15:34:58 <tlebo> Including a link to their email approving our response is a good idea. 15:35:06 <pgroth> q? 15:35:14 <dgarijo> pgroth: a new product is fine, but having a last call product for each deliverable would make a busy tracker. 15:35:25 <pgroth> q? 15:35:29 <dgarijo> ivan: i don't have a strong opinion, but what you say is right,. 15:35:36 <stain> other trackers have 'versions' for that particular problem 15:36:13 <dgarijo> ivan: one more thing: If I look at the wiki page right now I still have to go to each individual issue to see if they are closed or not. 15:36:39 <pgroth> q? 15:36:46 <dgarijo> ... add for each entry whether the issue is closed in the wiki page. 15:36:59 <stain> I think it should be managable 15:37:15 <dgarijo> I agree with Stian. 15:37:20 <jun> whatever works for you, Paul. Fine with either way 15:37:31 <pgroth> q? 15:37:34 <dgarijo> not to create a product for each deliverable, it's too much IMO. 15:37:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: AOB? 15:37:56 <tlebo> bye! 15:37:57 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 15:37:59 <Zakim> -smiles 15:38:00 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov 15:38:00 <Zakim> -tlebo 15:38:00 <Zakim> -dgarijo 15:38:01 <Zakim> -jun 15:38:02 <Zakim> -pgroth 15:38:03 <Zakim> -jcheney 15:38:03 <Zakim> -stain 15:38:04 <Zakim> -??P17 15:38:07 <Zakim> -TomDN 15:38:08 <Zakim> -Ivan 15:38:09 <ivan> ivan has left #prov 15:38:16 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 15:38:21 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb 15:38:22 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended 15:38:22 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, +329331aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, jun, +1.818.731.aabb, TomDN, +1.315.330.aadd, SamCoppens, tlebo, Ivan, +44.131.467.aaee, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, stain, smiles?, 15:38:22 <Zakim> ... dgarijo 15:38:30 <pgroth> rrsagent, set lots public 15:38:30 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'set lots public', pgroth. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:38:41 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public 15:38:47 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes 15:38:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html pgroth 15:38:54 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon 15:38:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 15:38:54 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 15:39:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:39:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html trackbot 15:39:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 15:39:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000295