Chatlog 2012-04-26

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14:52:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:52:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-irc
14:52:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:52:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:52:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:52:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:52:30 <trackbot> Date: 26 April 2012
14:52:33 <Luc_> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:52:33 <Zakim> ok, Luc_; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:47 <Luc_> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.26
14:53:03 <Luc_> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:53:12 <Luc_> Regrets: Paul Groth, James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Satya Sahoo, Olaf Hartig, Simon Miles
14:53:26 <Luc_> rrsagent, make logs public
14:53:35 <Luc_> zakim, who is here?
14:53:35 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, Luc_
14:53:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc_, MacTed, Luc, stain, trackbot, sandro
14:58:23 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
14:58:47 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov
14:58:49 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:58:52 <Zakim> +??P21
14:58:56 <Zakim> +TomDN
14:58:58 <Zakim> -??P21
14:58:58 <Zakim> -TomDN
14:58:58 <Zakim> +??P21
14:58:58 <Zakim> +TomDN
14:58:58 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
14:59:10 <Luc_> zakim, ??P21 is me
14:59:10 <Zakim> +Luc_; got it
14:59:28 <Zakim> +??P8
14:59:36 <stain> hi
15:00:09 <stain> I can scribe, but only for 15 minutes - would need backup scribe
15:00:11 <Luc_> we don't have a scribe. Could someone  volunteer?
15:00:47 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, ??P8
15:00:57 <stain> Zakim: ??P8 is me
15:01:11 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
15:01:12 <stain> Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:01:12 <Zakim> +stain; got it
15:01:15 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:01:19 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
15:01:19 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:23 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:23 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:33 <TomDN> Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN
15:01:33 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:01:54 <TomDN> I can do it (I hope)
15:02:06 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.720.708.aaaa
15:02:12 <stain> just type what people say,  prefix with say Luc: 
15:02:14 <Luc_> scribe: TomDN
15:02:20 <stain> and don't be afraid to ask when something is unclear :)
15:02:27 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:02:32 <TomDN> ok, got it :)
15:02:34 <Zakim> +tlebo
15:02:34 <stain> Luc_: just do like Stian says, type on the IRC
15:02:41 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:02:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, stain, MacTed (muted), +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo
15:02:44 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens
15:02:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, TomDN, Curt, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc_, MacTed, Luc, stain, trackbot, sandro
15:02:47 <Luc_> topic: admin
<Luc_>Summary: Last week's teleconference minutes were approved.
15:03:09 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:03:27 <Zakim> +??P40
15:03:28 <TomDN> Luc: any other business?
15:03:31 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:03:35 <Luc_> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-19 
15:03:39 <GK> Oops, I'm late.  Still emailing.  Setting up now.
15:03:43 <Luc_> Proposed: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference 
15:03:49 <TomDN> +1
15:03:50 <Curt> +1
15:03:57 <MacTed> +1
15:04:02 <stain> 0 (not there)
15:04:07 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:04:08 <SamCoppens> +1
15:04:15 <jun> 0(not there too)
15:04:22 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
15:04:23 <tlebo> +1
15:04:32 <Luc_> Resolved: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference 
15:04:33 <GK> (not there)
15:04:52 <Zakim> +??P14
#15:04:54 <TomDN> Topic: open actions
15:05:14 <Zakim> +??P29
15:05:16 <Zakim> +??P43
15:05:41 <TomDN> Luc: are actions 73 and 74 complete?
15:05:43 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P43 is me
15:05:48 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:05:57 <dgarijo> Sorry to be late, +1 to the  minutes of last week.
15:06:03 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:06:03 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:06:07 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73
15:06:07 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73
15:06:10 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/74
15:06:13 <Zakim> - +1.720.708.aaaa
15:06:34 <Zakim> +??P3
15:06:50 <JimMcCusker> JimMcCusker has joined #prov
15:06:53 <dgarijo> yeah this are the actions I set a while ago I think.
15:06:58 <Luc_> Topic: PAQ
<Luc_>Summary: Reviews of the PAQ document are all in, and generally positive. The group felt that the editors should make minor changes and proceed with release of the document.
15:06:59 <dgarijo> *these
15:07:17 <Zakim> +??P24
15:07:18 <TomDN> Luc: paul told me all reviews for PAQ were received
15:07:20 <stain> Jun - yours is about http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/305
15:07:30 <TomDN> Luc: there are 2 options
15:07:32 <tlebo> @jun, I think that is closed.
15:07:35 <GK> q+ to comment that most outstanding comments have been addressed
15:07:54 <TomDN> ... release now, or make changes first and postpone release
15:07:55 <Luc_> ack GK
15:07:55 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to comment that most outstanding comments have been addressed
15:08:09 <TomDN> GK: been busy today going through comments
15:08:16 <tlebo> @jun, I closed your action.
15:08:21 <TomDN> ... most issues are resolved
15:08:32 <TomDN> ... 2 remaining
15:08:51 <TomDN> Luc: other reviewers on the call? 
15:09:05 <TomDN> SamCoppens: early release is ok for me
15:09:38 <TomDN> Curt: satisfied with responses to his review
15:09:57 <Luc_> guidance to editors: address minor issues and aim at early release
15:10:09 <TomDN> Luc: Now we aim for early release, and address minor issues
15:10:10 <Luc_> topic: Dublin Core Best Practice
<Luc_> Summary: Daniel will produce a timetable and share it with the group next week (ACTION-79).
15:10:39 <TomDN> Luc: wanted to have an update on progress
15:11:28 <jun> @tlebo, thanks! I agree
15:11:36 <TomDN> dgarijo: discussed it with Kai. Some delay due to other priorities. Can continue now
15:11:50 <stainPhone> stainPhone has joined #prov
15:11:52 <TomDN> Luc: Can timetable be suggested?
15:12:03 <Luc_> q?
15:12:12 <TomDN> dgarijo: Should be possible to make next week
15:12:15 <Luc_> topic: Release of Documents
<Luc_> Summary: It was checked that progress was being made on all documents approved for release. Prov-dm, -n, -primer are staged and ready to go. Prov-constraints should be ready by Friday and prov-o by Monday, and passed on to the Webmaster.  The group is invited to think about external readers who could review some/all documents. Three blogs will be prepared to announce the release of documents (ACTION-80, 81, 82). Any other volunteer welcome!
15:13:00 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:13:10 <TomDN> Luc: Prov-DM Prov-N and Primer are in mercurial and ready to be handed over 
15:13:14 <sandro> (sorry I'm late; previous meeting ran late, debugging mercurial.)
15:13:33 <TomDN> ... Some final changes are made to CONSTRAINTS document, should be done by friday
15:13:54 <TomDN> ... All documents should be ready for webmaster by the end of the week.
15:14:08 <TomDN> ... some issues with PROV-O.
15:14:19 <stain> I did not fix the validation things that seemed to be fixed by Tim's automated-thingie-my-bob
15:14:24 <stain> s/fixed/caused/
15:14:40 <TomDN> tlebo: Should be possible to get document ready by deadline on Monday
15:15:17 <TomDN> Luc: reviewers were happy with release as such. No blocking issues
15:15:44 <TomDN> tlebo: We are making the document ready validation-wise
15:15:55 <TomDN> Luc: if necessary, the webmaster can help with this as well
15:16:13 <TomDN> tlebo: will look into it this afternoon.
15:16:26 <stainPhone> stainPhone has joined #prov
15:16:27 <Zakim> -stain
15:16:52 <TomDN> Luc: reason for synchronized release was to get external feedback. Would be good to identify the people we want to approach for this.
15:18:14 <stain> stain has joined #prov
15:18:38 <Curt> Hook Hua, NASA/JPL will be a good reviewer for the whole package
15:19:13 <TomDN> Luc: invites everyone to think about potential reviewers.
15:19:20 <Zakim> +??P10
15:19:39 <TomDN> ... not necessary for them to review all documents, some of them is also ok
15:19:44 <Zakim> +??P8
15:19:47 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:20:08 <Luc_> ack kh
15:20:25 <TomDN> Luc: Anyone here who would like to write a blog about changes since last release?
15:20:32 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:20:43 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P8 (53%), khalidbelhajjame (95%)
15:20:58 <stain2> stain2 has joined #prov
15:21:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ??p8
15:21:08 <Zakim> ??P8 should now be muted
15:21:11 <TomDN> sorry, I didnt get that answer due to noise
15:21:23 <MacTed> sorry, ??p8 ... the echo was just too much
15:21:33 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov
15:21:35 <TomDN> kh: workshop is end of may, 28th of may
15:21:59 <stain2> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:21:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, MacTed (muted), tlebo, ??P40, dgarijo, ??P29, khalidbelhajjame, ??P3, ??P24, Sandro, ??P10, ??P8 (muted)
15:22:01 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens
15:22:09 <stain2> I can do a blog post
15:23:11 <TomDN> Jun: If necessary, I can write something about Prov-O
15:24:00 <jun> @stain2, that will be good to work together on the ontology post
15:24:08 <TomDN> stain2: can work together with Jun on this
15:24:26 <Luc_> q?
15:24:41 <TomDN> Luc: specifications will be out next thursday, so time for the blog should be shortly after that
15:24:45 <Luc_> topic: Definition of Alternate and Specialization
<Luc_> Summary: During the last two weeks, Jim, Tom, and James have been busy refining the definitions of Alternate and Specialization. They have reached a compromise that they feel is good, preserving the spirit of the data model (in particular, a simple definition of entity) and compatible with the semantics as currently understood. The group is invited to review these definitions. A vote will take place next week, to incorporate these definitions into the documents, or to drop these concepts from documents on recommendation track.
15:25:12 <TomDN> Luc: there were many discussions about alt/spec.
15:25:31 <TomDN> ... Solution should have support of the whole WG.
15:26:12 <TomDN> ... If no consensus can be had, we follow the agreed procedure, and drop them from specification, and add them as notes
15:26:33 <Luc_> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29
15:26:37 <Zakim> -??P10
15:26:47 <TomDN> ... TomDN, Jim, james and chairs discussed this via email/wiki
15:27:36 <TomDN> ... Definition 13 is something they are happy with, and ask for support from the group. Vote will be next week
15:27:45 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
15:28:12 <TomDN> ... hopefully this will close the issue. If not, we will discuss more, but they will be dropped from the documents and added as notes.
15:28:33 <TomDN> JimMcCusker: We went through a number of iterations
15:28:47 <TomDN> ... trying to define clearly what an entity is
15:28:58 <stain2> stain2 has joined #prov
15:29:03 <stain> stain has joined #prov
15:29:12 <TomDN> ... we agreed that an entity is something we use to talk about things in a particular way.
15:29:13 <Zakim> +??P2
15:29:28 <TomDN> ... explains definitions.
15:29:39 <stain> Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:29:39 <Zakim> +stain; got it
15:29:51 <stain> Zakim, ??P2 is stain
15:29:51 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as stain, stain
15:30:02 <TomDN> ... We leave things open for alternates to be very distinct ways of looking at the same thing.
15:31:13 <TomDN> ... Special attention paid to lifetime of entities.
15:31:41 <GK> exists general => exists specialization?  Other way round?
15:32:16 <GK> AHh.. I get it...
15:33:56 <JimMcCusker> An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary. (same as above)
15:34:04 <JimMcCusker> Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)
15:34:12 <JimMcCusker> An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)
15:34:44 <TomDN> TomDN: Pros of the definitions are: they avoid discussion about reflexivity/transitivity like we had before. Also they require minimal changes to existing documents
15:34:56 <TomDN> Luc: They are a good compromise. 
15:34:59 <Luc_> q?
15:35:07 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:35:22 <stain> I wA
15:35:54 <TomDN> kh: main difference is in definition is in alternateOf. More specifically, the overlapping/non-overlapping intervals.
15:36:02 <Curt> I like emphasis on "aspects".  Key to understanding will be good examples...
15:36:14 <TomDN> ... Concerns that "aspects" will be confusing.
15:36:25 <Luc_> q?
15:36:28 <Luc_> ack kh
15:36:44 <TomDN> JimMcCusker: We settled on aspects because it's the most efficient way to talk about everything an entity can be
15:36:55 <stain> Wander slightly what is the meaning of alternate , first line says entity is a thing, second  that entity a aspect
15:37:04 <TomDN> ... It's  not an exclusive view, but also not a fixed set of attributes
15:38:01 <TomDN> ... the meaning is that of the natural language meaning of aspects. No special definition required.
15:38:21 <Luc_> q?
15:38:46 <TomDN> kh: Why was it necessary to relax the definition of alternate to non-overlapping intervals.
15:39:15 <Luc_> q?
15:39:19 <TomDN> Luc: this is to accomodate examples like the "customer in chair at 6pm or 7pm" one
15:39:45 <TomDN> Luc: Vote will be next week
15:39:52 <Luc_> topic: Collections  
<Luc_> Summary: It was explained that following last week's call, the term 'dictionary' is used for the kind of collection defined in prov-dm/prov-o, while the term 'collection' is used for the abstract notion of collection, without specific reference to its structure.  We discussed whether other forms of collections were desirable. It was felt that defining other types of collections (e.g. sets or multi-sets)  would be feature creep. The group supported a resolution not to specify any other form of collection in PROV.
15:40:37 <TomDN> Luc: Update on current status: Collections are now called Dictionaries in the DM
15:40:51 <khalidbelhajjame> @Luc, yes
15:41:06 <TomDN> ... Changes are made to prov-o document as well.
15:41:22 <stain> There might be a few Collections hanging about still :)
15:41:28 <JimMcCusker> I need to drop off, thanks all!
15:41:29 <TomDN> Jim: Acknowledges that these changes are being made today
15:41:46 <tlebo> ( http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o#description-collections still needs to be updated to reflect the name change)
15:41:53 <TomDN> Luc: Do we want another, concrete kind of collection in the model?
15:41:55 <JimMcCusker> s/Jim/Tim
15:42:08 <Luc_> q?
15:42:12 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:42:18 <Zakim> -??P3
15:42:38 <TomDN> kh: One way to try to answer this is to look what kind of provenance is required.
15:42:48 <TomDN> ... do we need order, duplicates, ... ?
15:43:24 <TomDN> kh: Dictionary as it is now is very general. Can be mapped to most possible collections when required
15:43:41 <TomDN> ... So most cases will be covered already.
15:43:53 <tlebo> q+ to say that "Collections" have always been defined as "Dictionaries", so adding anything other than a Dictionary is feature creep. Leave Collections as the hallow superclass.
15:44:00 <Luc_> ack kha
15:44:07 <TomDN> ... As they are now, dictionaries are very expressive, which is great.
15:44:37 <tlebo> q-
15:44:57 <TomDN> tlebo: Collections actually always were Dictionaries, except for the name.
15:45:38 <TomDN> ... adding more features would be feature-kreeped 
15:45:48 <TomDN> (spelling of that last one? )
15:45:56 <Luc_> q?
15:46:05 <GK> (I'm staying silent for now, as my earlier email seems to have struck a nerve and I'm considering my response.)
15:46:06 <stain> Creep
15:46:17 <TomDN> Jun: agrees, adding more would make the model look more like a datastructure
15:46:41 <TomDN> s/kreeped/creep
15:47:04 <TomDN> GK: Still not completely convinced that we need Collections. Simpler is better.
15:47:05 <Luc_> q?
15:47:05 <tlebo> @gk, you mean Dictionaries?
15:47:33 <tlebo> @gk @luc thx
15:47:44 <GK> (I mean any kind of collection)
15:47:50 <Luc_> Proposed: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV 
15:47:58 <TomDN> GK: Any kind of collection/dictionary
15:48:13 <tlebo> +1
15:48:16 <jun> yes
15:48:20 <stain> +1
15:48:22 <Curt> +1
15:48:24 <zednik> +1
15:48:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (except if we find a case that justifies coming up with another kind of collections)
15:48:29 <TomDN> +1
15:48:35 <MacTed> +0
15:48:38 <sandro> +0
15:48:53 <GK> (abstain)
15:49:10 <Luc_> ACCEPTED: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV 
15:49:24 <Curt> (I'm fine with just dictionary, but I do think there is some merit for 'set'..)
15:49:36 <Luc_> q?
15:49:48 <tlebo> bye!
15:49:51 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
15:49:52 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:49:53 <Zakim> -??P40
15:49:54 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
15:49:55 <TomDN> Luc: If evidence should present itself to add more kind of collections, issue could be reopened. But for now, closed
15:49:56 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:50:00 <zednik> bye
15:50:01 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:50:03 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:50:04 <stain> Set is done easily with URI as keys
15:50:07 <Zakim> -??P24
15:50:09 <Zakim> -??P8
15:50:10 <Zakim> -stain
15:50:13 <TomDN> bye
15:50:18 <Zakim> -TomDN
15:50:35 <Luc_> rrsagent, set log public
15:50:46 <Luc_> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-minutes.html Luc_
15:50:55 <Luc_> trackbot, end telcon
15:50:55 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:50:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, stain, MacTed, SamCoppens, +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, dgarijo, Sandro, stain
15:51:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:51:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-minutes.html trackbot
15:51:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:51:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:51:05 <Zakim> -Luc_
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