Chatlog 2012-03-01

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16:01:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
16:01:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-irc
16:01:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
16:01:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
16:01:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:01:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
16:01:47 <trackbot> Date: 01 March 2012
16:01:56 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-minutes.html MacTed
16:01:57 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov
16:02:02 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:02:08 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:08 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I don't know what conference this is
16:02:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, kai, Mike_, Curt, tlebo, SamCoppens, gk1, GK, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro
16:02:11 <MacTed> Zakim, this is PROV
16:02:12 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
16:02:14 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_(PROV)11:00AM
16:02:18 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see tlebo, +1.443.708.aaaa, SamCoppens, Curt_Tilmes, ??P4, [OpenLink], ??P18
16:02:20 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:02:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, kai, Mike_, Curt, tlebo, SamCoppens, gk1, GK, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro
16:02:27 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
16:02:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:30 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:02:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:02:39 <Zakim> -??P18
16:02:43 <Luc> trackbot, start telcon
16:02:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:02:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
16:02:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:02:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
16:02:48 <trackbot> Date: 01 March 2012
16:02:55 <Zakim> +??P18
16:02:56 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:03:04 <GK> zakim, ??p18 is me
16:03:04 <Zakim> +GK; got it
16:03:14 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
16:03:14 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
16:03:31 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.01
16:03:35 <satya> satya has joined #prov
16:03:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:41 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
16:03:50 <Zakim> +??P22
16:03:56 <Luc> Chair: Paul Groth
16:04:04 <Luc> have we got a scribe?
16:04:17 <Zakim> +??P25
16:04:26 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P25 is me
16:04:26 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
16:04:29 <Luc> Scribe: GK
16:04:39 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
16:04:40 <Luc> Topic: Admin
<pgroth> Summary: Beyond general admin, minutes of the F2F2 meeting were approved. The working group was reminded of the time change in the US.
16:05:09 <pgroth> Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-23
16:05:10 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
16:05:16 <GK> Vote on minutes of last week telecon
16:05:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
16:05:23 <Curt> +1
16:05:24 <tlebo> +1
16:05:26 <SamCoppens> +1
16:05:28 <dgarijo> +1
16:05:30 <satya> +1
16:05:31 <GK> OK, with revervartion per email
16:05:35 <Mike_> +1
16:05:37 <kai> +0, wasn't there
16:06:18 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
16:06:33 <Zakim> +??P30
16:06:35 <tlebo> gk: did we explicitly agree to 3 parts, or a nod to the editors?
16:07:06 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov
16:07:12 <GK> +1
16:07:12 <pgroth> Vote Minutes of F2F2:
16:07:16 <Paolo> +1
16:07:18 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-02
16:07:19 <tlebo> +1
16:07:21 <dgarijo> +1
16:07:24 <kai> +1
16:07:25 <Zakim> +??P36
16:07:37 <Luc> ACCEPTED: Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon
16:07:37 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-03
16:07:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:07:58 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
16:08:04 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
16:08:04 <Curt> 0 (not present)
16:08:08 <GK> +1 (I think)
16:08:08 <MacTed> +0
16:08:11 <Mike_> 0 (not present)
16:08:15 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
16:08:17 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
16:08:23 <smiles> +1 (from a very quick look)
16:08:24 <SamCoppens> +0 (not present)
16:08:36 <jcheney> +1
16:08:46 <Luc> ACCEPTED: Minutes of the second face to face meeting (F2F2) are approved
16:08:55 <pgroth>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
16:09:03 <GK> Open actions
16:09:24 <GK> PROV-O - not yet due
16:09:54 <GK> Action-63?  Khalid needs more time - con tinues
16:10:07 <GK> Actions 64-67 continue
16:10:18 <GK> Action 57 continues
16:10:18 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 57
16:10:24 <dgarijo> @Khalid: Jun said she was interested in helping you. Maybe she'll contact you.
16:10:43 <GK> All please note that next teleconferences 11 mar - 25 Mar are one hour earlier in Europe
16:10:55 <MacTed> sending .ics files as invitations, based on Boston-local-time, helps get correct times into calendars...
16:11:08 <GK> NOTE - time shift ONLY for Europe
16:11:13 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:11:13 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:11:20 <pgroth> Timetable for Release
16:11:24 <khalidbelhajjame> @Daniel, yes Jun sent me a document, which I will use in the structure that I ll propose
16:11:30 <pgroth> Topic: Timetable for Release
<pgroth> Summary: A revised time table for the working group was presented by the chairs. The working group was reminded that this was an aggressive schedule but could be achieved through focused work. 
16:11:39 <dgarijo> @Khalid: great
16:11:55 <pgroth> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An15kLxkaMA3dFVCWm9aREZFemNOYjlGQjdPRkdFZXc#gid=0
16:12:07 <GK> Timetable for syncronized release of PROV-DM and PROV-O
16:12:41 <GK> Paul: Timetable is very aggressive.
16:12:47 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
16:12:53 <GK> .. Many documents will follow same timeline
16:13:26 <GK> .. beginning March - aim top have public WD5 at end of March for internal review
16:13:36 <GK> .. 2-week review period
16:14:19 <GK> .. feedback by ?? April, last call for all specifications at end of May
16:14:39 <GK> .. Candidate REC in August
16:14:49 <GK> .. Proposed REC in October
16:14:55 <GK> .. REC in Jan 2013
16:15:22 <GK> The next document needing to be looked at is PROV-O :
16:15:56 <GK> .. WD2 draft public mid-April, then same timeframe as DM
16:16:48 <GK> .. PROV0-AQ and Primer to follow same procedure as DM and Ont (End Mar internal, April(?) public)
16:17:08 <pgroth> +q
16:17:13 <pgroth> q-
16:17:16 <Luc> q?
16:17:18 <smiles> q+
16:17:20 <GK> Paul: Need to be aggressive in ,making progress, cull topics that inhibit progress.
16:18:06 <GK> smiles: what happens after WD3 for Primer and PAQ?
16:18:22 <pgroth> q?
16:18:25 <pgroth> ack smiles
16:18:27 <pgroth> q?
16:18:31 <GK> Paul: those are notes,m can be less aggressive, but need syncronized set for next round.
16:18:37 <pgroth> q?
16:18:53 <pgroth>  PROV-DM
16:19:03 <GK> Topic: Update on PROV-DM:
<pgroth> Summary: Luc presented the current status of the prov-dm and then discussed the plans for WD5 and highlighted the remaining issues left and also that an improved organization would be adopted in the document. The group approved the simplification of specializationOf, alternateOf and hasNote into binary relations.
16:19:41 <GK> Luc: going through comments, have raised issues for each.  This will lead to completion of WD4.
16:20:36 <pgroth> q/
16:20:39 <pgroth> q?
16:20:45 <GK> .. plan for WD5 to tackle remaining issues in the charter, (collections, ..., ..., derivation).  Also Jun's comments about structure of DM (why core + common relations).  Edxpect all core technical issues to be addressed by WD5.
16:20:52 <pgroth> q?
16:21:28 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/index.php?title=ProvDMWorkingDraft5&action=edit&section=2
16:21:33 <GK> Paul: on agenda for 2-3 weeks, proposal for simplifying several relations in DM to make it more compatible with Ontology.
16:21:43 <pgroth> Proposal: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote
16:21:56 <tlebo> +1
16:22:00 <dgarijo> +1
16:22:01 <pgroth> q?
16:22:07 <Curt> +1
16:22:07 <GK> alternativeOf, specializationOf, hasNote to be binary relations.
16:22:15 <pgroth> q?
16:22:17 <GK> q+ to ask if these are still needed?
16:22:18 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
16:22:22 <Mike_> +1
16:22:25 <jcheney> q+
16:22:48 <pgroth> ack GK
16:22:48 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if these are still needed?
16:23:24 <pgroth> ack jcheney 
16:23:28 <GK> Paul: will deal with that separately.
16:23:54 <kai> +1
16:23:55 <GK> Jcheney: (can't hear clearly)
16:24:21 <pgroth> q?
16:24:26 <GK> James asked if binary relations contained typo.  A> yes, there is typo.
16:24:27 <pgroth> Proposal: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote
16:24:30 <tlebo> +1
16:24:31 <Curt> +1
16:24:32 <jcheney> +1
16:24:32 <smiles> +1
16:24:32 <MacTed> +1
16:24:33 <kai> +1
16:24:33 <Mike_> +1
16:24:33 <SamCoppens> +1+1
16:24:33 <satya> +1
16:24:34 <stephenc> +1
16:24:36 <dcorsar> +1
16:24:36 <GK> +1
16:24:37 <dgarijo> +1
16:24:39 <zednik> +1
16:24:41 <Paolo> +1
16:24:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
16:24:50 <pgroth> accepted: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote
16:25:05 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-O
<pgroth> Summary: an extensive status review of the prov-o progress was given. Tim presented a system for monitoring alignment based on the ProvRDF mappings page as well as progress in cataloging issues. 
16:25:07 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.01#PROV-O.27s_prov-wg_telecon_report_2012-03-01
16:25:11 <GK> Next topic: PROV-O :
16:25:12 <jcheney> @GK: sorry, lots of us are all in same room at Dagstuhl so trying to avoid feedback
16:26:12 <GK> (Missed something) Progress on design for catalogue of examples.  Hoping for this second round to be final structure for examples.
16:26:43 <GK> .. issues with alignment between DM, Primer and PROV-O.  Have overview wiki page (link?)
16:27:01 <GK> .. fielding issues from reviewers
16:27:41 <GK> .. planning organization for next rev of prov-o HTML doc, following style of SiOC/FOAF/OPMV...
16:27:46 <pgroth> q?
16:27:50 <Luc> q+
16:28:09 <Luc> q-
16:28:17 <GK> Luc: were you going to ask DM people to do something similar. 
16:28:40 <pgroth> q?
16:28:43 <GK> Tim: asking for annotations in document to facilitate comparison.  Will send email with details.
16:28:46 <GK> q+
16:28:51 <pgroth> ack GK
16:29:20 <pgroth> q?
16:29:24 <tlebo> http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/provrdf-owl-coverage
16:29:35 <pgroth> q?
16:29:41 <GK> Cool :)
16:30:02 <pgroth> q?
16:30:21 <GK> (GK question was about use of services: github for compare and RPI service for formatting; A: yes)
16:30:48 <dgarijo> @tlebo:wasquotedFrom not mentioned?
16:31:00 <tlebo> @gk, the commands in the email thread can be ignored. the wg can focus on the results at http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/provrdf-owl-coverage
16:31:29 <GK> Khalid: need to think about minimal ... examples for every concept and property ... 
16:32:00 <GK> ... details to help structure the ontology better.  Also structuring the ontology into "models" - what does this mean?
16:32:13 <GK> @tlebo I was curious about thye tooling :)
16:32:21 <pgroth> Topic: Example Catalog
<pgroth> Summary: Tim presented a comprehensive structure for creating and documenting examples. The group approved this structure and the notion of having such a catalog. Curt, Sam, Mike, Tim and Luc all agreed to populate the catalog.
16:32:32 <GK> Next Topic: example catalogue
16:32:50 <GK> Tim put together a structure for this
16:32:53 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_examples
16:34:40 <GK> Tim: link to description of proposed structure.  Section 3 what we're trying to organize, section 4 patterns of organization.  Use number to ensure uniqueness.  Title optional, might change if that helps.  Different directories for different formats.
16:34:53 <tlebo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-1/rdf/convert/asn/eg-1.asn
16:35:38 <GK> .. transcriptions section... above path indicates in and out formats, can be extended across multiple steps
16:36:04 <GK> .. query directory for query tests; compare for comparing output of queries
16:36:30 <GK> .. document at any level for adding notes
16:37:10 <GK> .. wiki namespace for references to wiki
16:37:33 <GK> .. links to web pages
16:37:41 <pgroth> q?
16:37:54 <pgroth> q?
16:38:02 <GK> @tlebo looked good to me first time, and getting better I think :)
16:38:15 <tlebo> @gk, thanks. More feedback welcome :-)
16:38:28 <pgroth> Consensus that we adopt this example catalog approach
16:38:31 <Paolo> +1
16:38:32 <satya> +1
16:38:33 <smiles> +1 looks good
16:38:36 <zednik> +1
16:38:39 <kai> +1
16:38:39 <MacTed> +1
16:38:40 <GK> Chair declares consensus to adopt this approach
16:39:00 <pgroth> Accepted:  adopt example catalog approach from agenda
16:39:07 <tlebo> thanks, I'll press forward and make some real examples that people can follow.
16:39:11 <khalidbelhajjame> Can we add a link to the wiki page created by Tim to the main wiki page
16:39:43 <pgroth> q?
16:39:44 <GK> Paul: call for volunteers to populate with examples
16:39:47 <tlebo> +1
16:39:54 <Curt> +1
16:39:55 <SamCoppens> +1
16:40:04 <Mike_> +1
16:40:27 <Luc> +1
16:40:35 <pgroth> Volunteers - Curt, Sam, Mike, Tim, Luc
16:40:49 <pgroth> q?
16:40:49 <tlebo> please bug me if you have any questions about the organization.
16:40:52 <GK> Paul: Others may contribute later!
16:41:00 <GK> (Slick chairing :)
16:41:05 <tlebo> q+
16:41:10 <pgroth> ack tlebo 
16:41:40 <pgroth> Topic: open discussion around accounts
<pgroth> Summary: The group had a discussion about revisiting the F2F2 decision around simplification/removal of the account construct. It was agreed that this discussion could be reopened but with the proviso that this discussion not impact progress on the deliverables. It was also suggested that accounts may better be discussed in a note rather than a recommendation to ensure on time delivery.
16:41:44 <GK> Tim: asks to revisit F2F decision about accounts - believed we had removed account scoping, but still have bundles.
16:41:47 <pgroth> q?
16:42:45 <Luc> q+
16:43:16 <GK> GK: had same understanding, but wonderedf if "bundles" might be called "accounts".  But not strong feeling about this.
16:44:01 <GK> Luc: mechanism for giving name to provenance assertions is outside scope of DM.  But assume that mechanism exists.
16:44:06 <khalidbelhajjame> That's was my understanding too. When we need to speak about the provenance of a collection of provenance assertions, then we simply use Entity
16:44:22 <pgroth> q?
16:44:22 <GK> .. would like to see accounts in model, but OIK to compromose.
16:44:26 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:44:45 <pgroth> q?
16:44:55 <GK> I recall something along the lines of what Luc said, too (assume mechanism for labeling bundles)
16:45:26 <Luc> q+
16:45:30 <GK> Paul: fundamentally agreed to make accounts a lot simpler.
16:45:48 <GK> .. deferred discussion about where the mechanism might lie.
16:46:08 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:46:30 <GK> q+ to say I think the important thing may be to not prohibit private extensions for account-like functionality, but niot necessarily define now.
16:46:32 <tlebo> q+ to say that the can of worms was citing the asserter and having name scopes.
16:46:56 <GK> Luc: can we reproduce something similar to what ? did for ?
16:47:23 <tlebo> I think Luc was citing http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvRDF#Account
16:47:30 <GK> .. what is the minimal notion of accout we can put in, without getting bogged down in details.
16:47:34 <tlebo> q?
16:47:36 <pgroth> ack GK
16:47:36 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think the important thing may be to not prohibit private extensions for account-like functionality, but niot necessarily define now.
16:48:14 <pgroth> ack tlebo 
16:48:14 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say that the can of worms was citing the asserter and having name scopes.
16:48:39 <GK> GK: thinks minimal notion of accounts may useful way move forwards
16:49:20 <GK> Tim: think accounts are victiome of name scope issue, but minimal notion may avoid this problem, as long as timeline not impacted.
16:49:22 <Luc> q+
16:49:29 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:49:58 <GK> Paul: if we can do this without impacting timeline, that's good, but must not cause delay.
16:50:06 <pgroth> q?
16:50:10 <GK> Luc: we could produce a NOTE on accounts if time runs out
16:50:38 <smiles> bye
16:50:40 <GK> Meeting closed.
16:50:42 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:50:43 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:50:44 <dgarijo> bye
16:50:47 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:50:49 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
16:50:51 <Zakim> -??P22
16:50:53 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
16:50:55 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
16:50:57 <Zakim> -??P36
16:51:01 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:51:03 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:51:07 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aaaa
16:51:13 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
16:51:17 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
16:51:22 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:51:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-minutes.html pgroth
16:51:23 <Zakim> -??P30
16:51:29 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
16:51:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:51:36 <GK> @paul: are you Ok from here - have meeting to retrun to now
16:51:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:51:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:51:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:51:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:51:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tlebo, +1.443.708.aaaa, SamCoppens, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, Sandro, GK, [IPcaller], khalidbelhajjame, Satya_Sahoo
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