Chatlog 2011-12-22

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15:51:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:51:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/22-prov-irc
15:51:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:51:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:51:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:51:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:51:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:51:58 <trackbot> Date: 22 December 2011
15:52:03 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:52:03 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:19 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.12.22
15:52:31 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:52:45 <pgroth> Scribe: Paolo Missier
15:52:52 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
15:53:06 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:55:21 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov
15:56:36 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:56:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:56:56 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:56:56 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:57:19 <Zakim> +??P1
15:57:37 <Paolo> zakim, ??p1 is me
15:57:37 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:57:43 <pgroth> thanks paolo
15:57:46 <pgroth> everything is setup
15:58:35 <davidschaengold> davidschaengold has joined #prov
15:59:06 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
15:59:16 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
#15:59:42 <Zakim> +pchampin
15:59:48 <Zakim> + +1.646.389.aaaa
16:00:22 <davidschaengold> Zakim, +1.646.389.aaaa is davidschaengold
16:00:22 <Zakim> +davidschaengold; got it
16:00:31 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
16:00:51 <Zakim> +??P5
16:01:03 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb
16:01:20 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:01:21 <tlebo> zakim, aabb is tlebo
16:01:22 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
16:02:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:18 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
<pgroth> Summary: Approved the minutes of Dec 8 and Dec 15 telecon. Next telecon will be Jan. 5 2012
#16:02:25 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:02:27 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
16:02:29 <dgarijo> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:02:29 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
16:02:48 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-08
16:02:59 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 08 telecon
16:03:02 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
16:03:13 <dgarijo> +1
16:03:15 <Curt> 0 (not present)
16:03:16 <Paolo> +1
16:03:18 <tlebo> +1
16:03:23 <davidschaengold> 0 (not present)
16:03:26 <jcheney> +1 minutes
16:03:46 <pgroth> Accepted minutes Dec 8 telecon
16:03:51 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-15
16:04:00 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 15 telecon
16:04:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:01 <dgarijo> +1
16:04:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:04:04 <Curt> 0 (not present)
16:04:06 <StephenCresswell> +1
16:04:07 <Paolo> +1
16:04:15 <tlebo> +1
16:04:16 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov
16:04:20 <jcheney> +1 minutes
16:04:21 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov
16:04:25 <davidschaengold> 0 (not present)
16:04:31 <pgroth> Accepted minutes of the Dec 15 telecon
16:04:56 <Paolo> pgroth: next telecon Jan 5th
16:05:02 <pgroth> Topic: Plan for Second Working Drafts
<pgroth> Summary: PROV-AQ, PROV-DM and PROV-O presented outlines of their plans for the upcoming working drafts to the group. Overall, the aim is to have various revisions done before the end of January. PROV-O plans to be discussed in greater detail at the forthcoming telecon. PROV-O editors were encouraged to aim having all PROV-DM constructs represented. PROV-AQ editors will discuss with Tim Lebo the handling of provenance "pingback" mechanism and whether that gets included in the next working draft.
16:05:26 <pgroth> prov-aq
16:05:33 <pgroth>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Dec/0232.html
16:06:05 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aacc
16:08:31 <pgroth> +q
16:08:36 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:08:38 <pgroth> q?
16:08:50 <Paolo> target for resolving issues on prov-aq: one week prior to F2F2
16:09:12 <tlebo> q+
#16:09:17 <Zakim> +pchampin
16:09:21 <pgroth> ack tlebo
16:09:52 <Paolo> Tlebo: issue of advertising where to find provenance
16:10:12 <Paolo> Pgroth: to be addressed after 2nd WD
16:10:43 <Paolo> Tlebo: why so elaborate? one paragraph should suffice 
16:11:01 <satya> satya has joined #prov
16:11:22 <Paolo> Pgroth: GK thought it may be too much for this version of the draft.
16:11:27 <pgroth> +q
16:11:29 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:11:37 <Paolo> Tlebo: GK and I have scheduled a discussion for Jan.
16:12:07 <Paolo> Pgroth: anyone from PROV- primer? (no)
16:12:16 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#changes-since-second-public-working-draft
16:12:30 <Paolo> Pgroth: PROV-DM plans for 3rd WD, asking Luc
16:12:45 <Paolo> Luc: issues just posted have already been worked on
16:13:01 <Paolo> Luc: new section created where all constraints are collected
16:13:18 <Paolo> Luc: this gives constraints more space in the doc
16:13:38 <Paolo> Luc: relations such as "wasComplementOf" reworked, Paolo sent a draft proposal
16:13:47 <Paolo> Luc: also reworked recipe -> plan
16:14:03 <Paolo> Luc: also tried to clarify "identifiers"
16:14:15 <Paolo> Luc: collections still being worked on (Paolo)
16:14:40 <Paolo> Luc: most issues raised in the tracked have been addressed. some will not happen (new example, request from Yolanda)
16:14:51 <Paolo> Luc: debate b/w ids and accounts still needed. 
16:15:03 <Paolo> Luc: end of January target for next release (3rd WD)
16:15:09 <pgroth> +q
16:15:13 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:15:14 <Paolo> Luc: vote proposed around Jan 20th
16:15:15 <pgroth> q?
16:15:34 <Paolo> <correct> end of January target for next release VOTE
16:16:15 <Paolo> Luc: need feedback. Will invite WG to review the whole doc by Jan 15th
16:16:22 <pgroth> q?
16:16:30 <Paolo> Luc: issue authors please comment o the state of your issues
16:16:54 <dgarijo> I'm here, but I've been out this week.
16:16:54 <Paolo> pgroth: plans for PROV-O?
16:17:26 <Paolo> Satya: discussed org for next version, but no call this week
16:17:51 <Paolo> Satya: discussed updating constraints part, following updates in PROV-DM. 
16:17:57 <Luc> q+
16:18:07 <Paolo> Satya: no constraints were included in the first release, that will happen in the next
16:18:24 <Paolo> Satya: realigning recipe -> plan
16:18:37 <Paolo> Satya:  new complementOf proposal to be discussed in the next telco
16:18:52 <pgroth> ack luc
16:18:52 <Paolo> Satya: ditto for the data containers proposal (aka collections)
16:19:02 <Paolo> Luc: timetable?
16:20:11 <Paolo> Satya: reorg: Jan 10th target date. New features as discussed: around Jan 15-20
16:21:12 <Paolo> Satya: release of next version: around last week of Jan
16:21:49 <Paolo> Luc: concerned about focus on the constraints -- they may still evolve in PROV_DM depending on discussion outcomes
16:22:24 <Paolo> Luc: lightweight vocabulary for all the PROV-DM is desirable, constraints to be added later after their defs settles
16:23:09 <Paolo> Luc: F2F 2 will talk about interoperability, so encoding of the vocabulary is essential if we are to be able to do that
16:23:43 <pgroth> q?
16:24:00 <Paolo> Satya: substantially agrees that all DM terms are reflected in -O
16:24:30 <Paolo> Pgroth: please send out an update to the list after the next confcall with the new schedule
16:24:31 <pgroth> q?
16:24:46 <Paolo> Satya: will do -- also, all invited to the -O call
16:24:51 <pgroth> q
16:24:53 <pgroth> q?
16:25:08 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-sem
<pgroth> summary: James Cheney presented a draft of a formal semantics for PROV-DM and asked for input from the group.
16:25:16 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman
16:25:53 <Paolo> jcheney:  rearranged the structure and terminology following -DM
16:26:26 <Paolo> jcheney: instance of the DM viewed as a formula
16:26:55 <Paolo> jcheney:  "objects" with a lifetime, attributes. "objects" captures what is common to entities, activities, agents
16:27:17 <Paolo> jcheney:  events are instantaneous but they can have attributes as well, so they are objects as well
16:28:19 <Paolo> jcheney: (presentation on semantics)
16:28:44 <Paolo> jcheney: not clear whether time interpretation is needed. GK suggested to avoid time, which may be possible and simpler
16:29:34 <Paolo> jcheney:: some things may hold "at any time" (see complementOf)
16:30:00 <Paolo> others depend on time if the mapping ids- >object is independent of time, then fewer things will depend on time in the model
16:30:02 <pgroth> q?
16:30:13 <Luc> q+
16:30:28 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:30:38 <Paolo> del/others depend on time
16:31:19 <Paolo> Luc: this helps understanding the DM. what's the best way to discuss about specific points?
16:32:23 <Paolo> jcheney: email the list. use actual issues for specific things
16:32:35 <pgroth> q?
16:32:37 <satya> q+
16:32:42 <Paolo> jcheney: e.g. the recent complementOf discussion was appropriately on the list
16:32:43 <pgroth> ack satya
16:33:47 <Paolo> satya: time invariant/time dependent interpretations -- -DM is based mostly on events. are events going to replace time in -SEM?
16:34:09 <pgroth> Zakim, who's noisy?
16:34:24 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P5 (4%), +44.238.059.aacc (60%)
16:34:43 <pgroth> P5 can you mute?
16:34:46 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
16:34:50 <Paolo> jcheney:  time instants are arbitrary partial order. total order not needed. this maybe close to the notion of events in -DM
16:35:49 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd
16:35:57 <Paolo> jcheney: ex: use, generation, activity start and end are events in -DM -- so events are associated with the specific relations and properties used in -DM
16:37:11 <satya> @James- yes, that is something I would like to be considered and discussed
16:37:15 <pgroth> q?
16:37:21 <Paolo> jcheney: there is an assumption that events are instantaneous, however they may span a temporal interval. This would make them similar to activities, possibly those that cannot be decomposed. but this is premature
16:38:21 <Paolo> jcheney:  need feedback before moving on to additional sections
16:39:14 <Paolo> jcheney: complementarity is what it was prior to the latest discussion. It may not necessarily match the draft.
16:39:39 <Paolo> jcheney: also added sections on the viewOf/foobar relations and tried to give them a formal meaning
16:40:21 <Paolo> jcheney: viewOf anti-symmetric, lifetime containment, and relationship amongst the sets of attributes of the two entities
16:40:53 <pgroth> type it
16:40:59 <Paolo> jcheney:  foobar (now changed to alternateOf)
16:41:16 <Paolo> jcheney: also being updated
16:43:30 <Paolo> jcheney: mismatch between a property like "two entity IDs describe the same entity" vs "two entity IDs are associated with two entity records about the same real world thing, but  which give different characterizationss" 
16:43:56 <Paolo> jcheney: need further discussion over email
16:44:02 <pgroth> q?
#16:44:21 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:44:43 <Luc> q+
16:44:49 <pgroth> q-
16:44:54 <pgroth> ack Luc
16:45:03 <Paolo> jcheney:  new recent changes in -DM regarding IDs of entity vs entity records should now be taken into account
16:46:04 <Paolo> Luc: in -DM we have 3 levels:  things in the world, entities, and entity records. Their distinction is important. In the -SEM doc the same distinction ought to be made. 
#16:46:45 <Zakim> +pchampin
16:46:55 <Paolo> jcheney: yes that pushes -SEM in the direction of having 3 levels rather than 2 (as it is now in -SEM)
16:47:32 <pgroth> q?
16:48:29 <Paolo> pgroth: discuss identifiers or accounts?
16:48:40 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DM Identifiers
<pgroth> summary: editors of PROV-DM presented their recent changes that clarify the role of identifiers and how they relate to accounts. PROV-O team members were asked to see if this approach maps naturally to RDF named graphs and if so how. Tim Lebo said he would look at how the account examples map.
#16:48:40 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:49:20 <Paolo> Luc: in -DM entities have identifiers, entity records include the ID of the entity, but we do not identify the entity record /itself/ using that same identifiers
#16:49:55 <Zakim> +pchampin
16:50:26 <pgroth> q?
16:50:49 <pgroth> q+
16:52:28 <Paolo> pgroth: id of an entity record -> account + entity Id. what's the implication from an access point of view?  there is no URL direclty for the entity record
16:52:59 <Paolo> Luc: there should be no impact on the PAQ
16:53:43 <Paolo> entity records must be searched possibly across multiple accounts. this has always been the understanding of how access works
16:54:11 <Paolo> pgroth: now we only indirectly reference an entity record 
16:54:14 <pgroth> q?
16:54:18 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:54:41 <tlebo> pgroth, an "entity record" is a chunk of an RDF abstract graph. An entity is mentioned and described in that graph.
16:54:45 <Paolo> Luc: there was never a direct way to refer to entity records. it was always in the context of a given account
16:54:48 <pgroth> q?
16:55:17 <tlebo> +1 to avoid naming entity records.
16:55:28 <pgroth> q?
16:55:32 <Paolo> Luc: we have never been keen on minting new IDs for every entity record created. Req. was to minimize burden on asserters
16:56:03 <pgroth> q?
16:56:10 <tlebo> q+
16:56:18 <pgroth> ack tlebo
16:56:18 <Paolo> Luc: what do the SW people / PROV-O team think of accounts and how they can be mapped to SW constructs (eg named graphs)?
#16:56:49 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:57:53 <Paolo> tlebo:  accounts are being mapped to NGs, it seems to map to "abstract graph" -- indep. of encoding, location,etc.
16:57:55 <Christine> apologies .. I need to leave .. thank you Paul and Luc
16:58:03 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:58:39 <Paolo> NGs are generally meant as graph containers. there is still some confusion on which interpretation of the NG should be used in this context
16:58:43 <satya> @Luc, sorry I have lost audio, will try to respond by mail to the updated account description in DM (an any points that Tim discusses regarding mapping to named graphs)
16:59:50 <Luc> q+
16:59:55 <pgroth> ack Luc
17:00:06 <Paolo> will work off the concrete example in the id-accounts section in -DM
17:00:21 <Paolo> Luc: can we focus on all the example of accounts found in the -DM doc?
17:00:39 <Paolo> to see what maps naturally and what doesn't
17:01:23 <Paolo> Luc: account IDs are meant to be global, precisely to align with NG id convention
17:02:12 <Zakim> + +1.443.708.aaee
17:02:21 <Paolo> Tlebo:  SW does not provide global URIs for NG. some reconciliation will be needed
17:02:51 <Paolo> Luc: there is no obligation to encode account IDs are URIs
17:03:46 <pgroth> q?
17:04:04 <Zakim> -tlebo
17:04:05 <Zakim> -dgarijo
17:04:06 <Zakim> -davidschaengold
17:04:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
17:04:10 <Zakim> -pgroth
17:04:11 <Zakim> - +44.238.059.aacc
17:04:12 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aaee
17:04:12 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aadd
17:04:14 <Zakim> -Paolo
17:04:20 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
17:04:22 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
17:04:29 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/22-prov-minutes.html pgroth
17:04:35 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon
17:04:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:04:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Paolo, Curt_Tilmes, pchampin, davidschaengold, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, dgarijo, [IPcaller], +44.238.059.aacc, +1.518.633.aadd,
17:04:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:04:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/22-prov-minutes.html trackbot
17:04:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:04:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:04:38 <Zakim> ... +1.443.708.aaee
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