Chatlog 2011-08-18

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14:31:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:31:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-prov-irc
14:31:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:31:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:31:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:31:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:31:43 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2011
14:31:51 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:31:51 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
14:35:28 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18
14:35:44 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:35:53 <Luc> Scribe: satya
14:36:06 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:46:18 <Luc> Regrets: Khalid, Stephan Zednik
14:53:01 <satya> satya has joined #prov
14:54:57 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov
14:55:59 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
14:56:21 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:56:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:56:25 <Zakim> +Curt
14:56:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
14:57:20 <Zakim> +??P1
14:57:36 <Zakim> +satya
14:57:37 <Luc> zakim, +??P1 is me
14:57:38 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
14:57:44 <Luc> zakim, ??P1 is me
14:57:44 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
14:57:51 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
14:57:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya
14:57:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot
14:58:11 <Zakim> +??P22
14:58:24 <jorn> zakim, ??p22 is me
14:58:24 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
14:58:32 <Luc> topic: Admin
<luc>Summary: Last week's minutes were approved.
14:59:18 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov
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15:00:08 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa
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15:00:27 <Zakim> +??P33
15:00:41 <smiles> zakim, ??P33 is me
15:00:41 <Zakim> +??P35
15:00:44 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov
15:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.540.449.aabb
15:00:56 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
15:01:13 <Zakim> +??P41
15:01:20 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.540.449 is me
15:01:27 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it
15:01:29 <Zakim> +??P45
15:01:31 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
15:01:38 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
15:01:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, ??P45
15:01:44 <Lena> zakim, ??P45 is me
15:01:49 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot
15:02:03 <Zakim> +Lena; got it
15:02:03 <Lena> zakim, +??P45 is me
15:02:04 <tlebo> Zakim, 315 is me
15:02:18 <Luc> @stain, are you ready to scribe? everything set up for you
15:02:20 <Zakim> sorry, Lena, I do not recognize a party named '+??P45'
15:02:23 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '315'
15:02:26 <tlebo> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:52 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
15:03:24 <kai> kai has joined #prov
15:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aacc
15:04:06 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
15:04:37 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:04:41 <Zakim> +??P7
15:04:45 <kai> zakim, ??P7 is me.
15:04:46 <satya> scribe Satya
15:05:07 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:05:11 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
15:05:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software
15:05:25 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software  is temporarily me
15:05:25 <MacTed> zakim, mute me
15:05:45 <satya> Luc: Covering the agenda items: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18
15:05:49 <Luc> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of Aug 11 telecon
15:05:59 <smiles> +1
15:06:00 <satya> +1
15:06:02 <Curt> +1
15:06:02 <kai> +1
15:06:06 <dgarijo> +1
15:06:07 <Yogesh> +1
15:06:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software
15:06:10 <dcorsar> +1
15:06:16 <Helena> Helena has joined #prov
15:06:25 <Zakim> +kai; got it
15:06:31 <Zakim> +??P2
15:06:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, kai, StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot
15:06:44 <Luc> ACCEPTED: the minutes of Aug 11 telecon
15:06:48 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:06:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:06:58 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:07:01 <satya> Luc: A number of action items are open 
15:07:20 <Zakim> -??P2
15:07:23 <satya> Luc: Action 15 to Stephan
15:07:50 <Zakim> +??P4
15:08:06 <satya> Lena: Stephan has completed the action item
15:08:18 <Helena> 2nd iteration to questionnaire: http://bit.ly/o7nR4n.
15:08:24 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as ??P2, dgarijo
15:08:39 <satya> Luc: Action 34 to James open
15:09:25 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:09:28 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:09:33 <satya> Luc: Action to Paul and Graham to clarify difference between resource and entity
15:09:34 <Luc> TOPIC: Provenance Implementation and Test Cases
<Luc> Summary: Lena updated the group on the second questionnaire. The working group is invited to comment on the second questionnaire before the next Aug 25 telcon.
15:09:35 <Ilkayaltintas> Ilkayaltintas has joined #prov
15:10:04 <satya> Luc: Update on Implementation task force
15:11:13 <satya> Lena: Updated the questionaire to clarify the following points: (a) define meaning of provenance, (b) privacy issue associated with response, (c) granularity of provenance 
15:11:18 <Luc> q?
15:12:24 <satya> Lena: Next step is to send the new questionaire to respondents of the first questionaire
15:12:44 <satya> @Luc: James sent an email indicating he has completed his action item
15:13:24 <Zakim> -jorn
15:13:31 <satya> Lena: The working group is invited to respond to the second questionaire before the next Aug 25 telcon
15:13:39 <Zakim> +??P21
15:13:39 <Luc> q?
15:13:46 <jorn> zakim, ??p21 is me
15:13:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:14:10 <satya> Luc: Can the issue raised by Deborah be accomodated?
15:14:16 <satya> Lena: It can be accomodated
15:14:07 <Luc> Topic: Connection Task Force
<Luc>Summary: Kai reported on progress, following Monday's teleconference on connection. The aim is still to produce an report by Aug 25; a structure has been outlined.
15:14:29 <satya> Luc: Update from the Connection task force
15:14:40 <kai> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
15:15:19 <satya> Kai: Summarizing information about groups who may be interested in working with the Provenance WG
15:16:02 <satya> Kai: A telcon was held on Monday by connection task force
15:16:16 <Luc> q?
15:16:18 <smiles> q+
15:16:34 <satya> Kai: Working to create a formal report
15:16:40 <satya> Luc: What are the next steps
15:17:18 <Zakim> + +1.518.763.aadd
15:17:37 <satya> Kai: Weekly telcon will be scheduled for discussion and work towards to create a formal document
15:18:01 <Luc> q?
15:18:08 <Luc> ack smiles
15:18:09 <satya> Kai: A draft report will be available by August 25 for comments
15:18:17 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:18:35 <StephenCresswell> +q
15:18:57 <satya> Smiles: Discussed with ? group and reviewed the 5 points identified by the connection task force 
15:19:34 <Luc> q?
15:19:36 <smiles> W3C semantic news community group
15:19:47 <satya> Smiles: In regular contact with W3C semantic news community group
15:20:18 <smiles> @satya actually irregular :-)
15:20:39 <Zakim> +??P29
15:20:49 <kai> q+
15:20:58 <Luc> ack step
15:21:30 <GK> zakim, ??p29 is me
15:21:30 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:21:37 <kai> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connections_Template_Catalog
15:22:12 <StephenCresswell> I made contact with the Government Linked data WG - they have identified prov WG as a connection in their charter
15:22:29 <Luc> ack kai
15:22:41 <Luc> q?
15:23:20 <satya> Stephen: Contacted with Government Linked Data WG and working with them to identify areas of possible collaboration
15:23:20 <Luc> topic: Provenance Access Document
<Luc>Summary: Yogesh presented his work on applying the PAQ approach to the Access Scenario developed at the face to face meeting.  This work resulted in a series of comments, for consideration by the PAQ document editors.
15:24:34 <satya> Graham: Working to incorporate suggestions from Yogesh in the PAQ document
15:24:58 <Yogesh> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenarioUsingPAQ
15:25:36 <satya> Yogesh: Working to ensure that the PAQ document covers the scenarios discussed during the F2F
15:26:20 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing first scenario "Online HTML Documents D1 and D2 (Resource provider aware of provenance)"
15:27:17 <Luc> q?
15:27:49 <GK> @yogesh: this looks useful, material here useful for some in-document example sequences, I think :)
15:28:00 <satya> Yogesh: The HTTP header captures both the provenance of the document and the context information
15:28:48 <Luc> q?
15:29:06 <Zakim> -jorn
15:29:19 <Zakim> +??P21
15:29:31 <jorn> zakim, ??p21 is me
15:29:31 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:29:40 <Zakim> +??P32
15:29:40 <satya> Yogesh: Two variations, one uses the anchor attribute and the second uses rel = "anchor"
15:29:46 <Zakim> + +1.650.386.aaee
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15:30:06 <Luc> q?
15:30:33 <satya> Yogesh: Describes how the "oh yeah" feature can be implemented in the first scenario
15:30:53 <satya> Yogesh: Moving to the second scenario: "Online Image Document D3 (Resource provider aware of provenance)"
15:31:36 <Zakim> -Yolanda
15:32:08 <satya> Yogesh: There is no difference between this scenario (with image) and the first scenario (with document)
15:32:28 <satya> Yogesh: Describing the third scenario: "HTML Document D5 as Email attachment "
15:32:59 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:33:39 <satya> Yogesh: Use of "link" element to provide the provenance and anchor information
15:33:40 <Luc> q?
15:34:17 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing the fourth scenario: " HTML Document D7 in the File System (Using provenance service)"
15:35:05 <satya> Yogesh: Again using the link element, but the provenance is from a "provenance-service"
15:35:20 <Ilkayaltintas> Ilkayaltintas has joined #prov
15:35:51 <GK> My battery about to fail.  Yogesh, this looks good to me.  Sorry I probably won't hear you out.
15:36:14 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaff
15:36:16 <Zakim> - +1.518.763.aadd
15:36:32 <satya> Yogesh: The provenance service returns a JSON file with template information (three templates) 
15:36:57 <satya> q+
15:37:19 <jorn> (fixed the GET target)
15:37:32 <GK> In practice, I'd expect just one of location or provenance templates to be present, though both as here would be legal.
15:37:47 <satya> Yogesh: Three templates (a) provenance_service_uri, (b) location_template, and (c) provenance_template
15:38:01 <Luc> q?
15:38:09 <GK> Provenance service URI is not a template, just the other two.
15:38:49 <GK> Templates are used here to conform to REST principles of hypertext as engine of app state
15:38:52 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing the fifth scenario: "Online Image Document D4 (Using provenance service)"
15:39:13 <Zakim> +??P26
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15:40:25 <smiles> q+
15:40:33 <Luc> q?
15:41:05 <Luc> ack sat
15:41:11 <DeborahM> DeborahM has joined #prov
15:41:49 <GK> There's a ref to the template spec in the actual document.
15:42:02 <GK> It's currently IETF WIP.
15:42:09 <Edoardo> Edoardo has joined #prov
15:42:39 <DeborahM> I was only on a cell phone before when the report happened on the connection to the open govt data working group and my irc does not show the previous notes.  Is there a place to see what was typed before on that status?  and is there an initial use case that is most appropriate to us?
15:43:11 <jorn> DeborahM: could priv-msg it to you
15:43:20 <Luc> q?
15:43:24 <Luc> ack smi
15:43:44 <GK> @smiles - these are currently alternatives - we might chose, or allow both
15:44:01 <satya> Smiles: Are both the alternatives available to the users
15:44:24 <satya> Yogesh: This is an outstanding issue to be discussed
15:44:25 <Luc> q?
15:44:45 <Zakim> -jorn
15:44:55 <Zakim> +??P21
15:45:02 <satya> Yogesh: We either re-use anchor attribute or introduce an "anchor" relation
15:45:06 <Luc> q?
15:45:51 <Luc> q?
15:45:52 <jorn> q+ what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?
15:45:59 <satya> Luc: has Yogesh made suggestions/comments regarding the PAQ document? 
15:46:11 <Luc> ack jorn
15:46:12 <satya> Yogesh: Yes, Graham is working to address them
15:46:29 <Luc> q?
15:47:51 <Luc> q?
15:48:31 <Luc> q?
15:48:36 <jorn> what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?
15:48:45 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Ontology 
<Luc>Summary: Satya reported on progress on the ontology. The issue of uniformity of names was raised (choice of past or present tense, inclusion or not of a verb). Action on Luc to Poll the group about the conventions to follow.
15:48:52 <satya> Jorn: what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?
<luc>Scribe:dgarijo
15:49:20 <dgarijo> satya: We had a telecon on Monday
15:49:37 <dgarijo> satya: tried to import an scenario to RDF as an example
15:49:59 <dgarijo> ... other issues: with used, particpation and generation
15:50:22 <dgarijo> ... also putting uses in the past tense rather than in present tense
15:50:34 <Luc> q?
15:50:42 <dgarijo> ... transform isUsedBy into used
15:50:44 <ralph_> q+
15:51:33 <Luc> q?
15:51:40 <dgarijo> ... if both used and generatedBy are subproperties of participation there are problems with the domains and ranges. Could we make inverse properties?
15:51:46 <dgarijo> +q
15:52:00 <ralph_> The silent 'has' rule is a useful one
15:52:38 <ralph_> drop 'is' from all predicates that have a suffix, such as 'of' - no need for 'is'
15:52:45 <dgarijo> satya: James has been working on the formal semantics
15:52:56 <satya> Discussion wiki for provenance formal model: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology
15:53:03 <jcheney> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#PIL:0001
15:53:03 <ralph_> consider 'usage' instead of 'uses'
15:53:30 <dgarijo> @ralph_: we took the names from the formal model :)
15:54:40 <jcheney> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#PIL:0001
15:54:42 <DeborahM> One overriding discussion on the uses or used includes that we want consistency of tense in the entire model.  It may be that all of the roles/properties use past tense while the classes (if tense is included) may use present tense.  There is a start at the evaluation of how all of the roles look if we use past tense.
15:54:50 <Luc> q?
15:55:00 <DeborahM> +
15:55:02 <ralph_> By 'silent has' I mean that a predicate that does not have any suffix  that forms a phrase should be raed as having a 'has'. This removes the need to have predicates that embody tense: 'hasRole', 'wasRole' and 'willHaveRole'
15:55:17 <ralph_> raed -> read
15:55:18 <DeborahM> -1 for usage
15:55:30 <dgarijo> -1 for usage
15:55:43 <ralph_> no tense
15:56:39 <ralph_> Consider use of SKOS for labels
<luc>Scribe: satya
15:56:58 <dgarijo> why not rdf:label? 
15:57:26 <DeborahM> one rationale for the best practices documents being a wiki page or html document but we expect this to evolve and we did not want it as part of the static document
15:57:26 <ralph_> because SKOS has more precise semantics - prefLabel, altLabel
15:57:46 <Luc> q?
15:57:51 <DeborahM> +
15:57:55 <DeborahM> +q
15:57:56 <Luc> ack ral
15:58:46 <Luc> action: Luc to poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties
15:58:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties [on Luc Moreau - due 2011-08-25].
15:59:10 <satya> @Daniel: thanks for help with scribing :)
15:59:22 <dgarijo> @satya: np
15:59:41 <Luc> q?
15:59:45 <Luc> ack dga
16:00:37 <Zakim> -??P21
16:00:56 <satya> DanielG: Question about the "participation" - the current document does not describe "generation" as specialization of "participation"
16:01:07 <Luc> q?
16:01:12 <Zakim> +??P12
16:01:15 <jorn> zakim, ??p12 is me
16:01:22 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
16:02:13 <Luc> ack deb
16:02:24 <dgarijo> the problem with grouping both relationships under participation is that you make process execution the domain of every relationship
16:02:27 <satya> Luc: No consensus on "generation" as specialization of "participation"
16:03:30 <satya> Deborah: Most of the ontologies use "present tense"
16:03:35 <DeborahM> Considering action 36, I suggest that we will be most informed if we look at concrete options.  The poll could have two levels – abstract level – present or past – and then concrete level – get as concrete a listing as we can get and make a present vs past tense list and let people review the concrete list.
16:04:02 <Luc> q?
16:06:16 <Luc> q?
16:07:41 <ralph_> I mentioned CIDOC-CRM - ontologies for Musuems, ARt Collections and Cultural Heritage - this has some notions of provenance - see http://www.cidoc-crm.org/
16:07:52 <MacTed> seems that one need is for a superProperty "input" of which the more specific inputs are subProperties...
16:07:59 <ralph_> The standard is at http://www.cidoc-crm.org/docs/cidoc_crm_version_5.0.2.pdf
16:08:01 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Model Document  
<luc>Summary: Paul wrote a section on shortcuts and extensions. The group is invited to comment on this section in the usual way.
16:08:11 <Luc>    http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#shortcuts-and-extensions
16:08:34 <Luc> q?
16:08:47 <satya> q+
16:09:20 <Zakim> -Yolanda
16:09:37 <satya> ack satya
16:10:30 <Luc> q?
16:10:33 <ralph_> q+
16:10:39 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:10:42 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaff
16:10:43 <Zakim> -smiles
16:10:48 <Zakim> -??P35
16:10:48 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aacc
16:10:50 <Yogesh> Yogesh has left #prov
16:10:54 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:10:57 <Zakim> -satya
16:10:57 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:10:59 <Zakim> -??P26
16:11:00 <Zakim> - +1.650.386.aaee
16:11:01 <Zakim> -kai
16:11:08 <Zakim> -Luc
16:11:09 <Zakim> -Yogesh
16:11:12 <Zakim> -jorn
16:11:19 <Zakim> -??P32
16:11:20 <Zakim> -??P41
16:11:22 <Zakim> -Curt
16:11:26 <Zakim> -Lena
16:17:32 <ralph_> quit
16:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, GK, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM
16:35:04 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:35:06 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], Curt, satya, Luc, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, +1.540.449.aabb, smiles, Yogesh, Yolanda, Lena, tlebo, +1.858.210.aacc, kai, MacTed, dgarijo, +1.518.763.aadd,
16:35:09 <Zakim> ... GK, +1.650.386.aaee, +1.518.276.aaff
16:51:12 <GK> GK has joined #prov
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