Chatlog 2011-06-03

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15:01:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> logging to
15:01:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:01:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:01:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:01:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:01:16 <trackbot> Date: 03 June 2011
15:01:33 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov
15:01:35 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:35 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I don't know what conference this is
15:01:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see paolo, Zakim, RRSAgent, StephenCresswell, tlebo, GK_, dgarijo, YolandaGil, jun, frew, Yogesh, jorn, stain, sandro, trackbot
15:01:43 <tlebo> zakim, this is #prov
15:01:44 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not see a conference named '#prov' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:01:51 <YolandaGil> Zakim, this will be prov-wg
15:01:51 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, YolandaGil
15:01:53 <sandro> zakim, this will be prov
15:01:53 <Zakim> ok, sandro, I see SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM already started
15:01:58 <Zakim> -??P8
15:02:06 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, ??P2, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro
15:02:13 <Zakim> +??P7
15:02:27 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:02:27 <RRSAgent> See
15:02:34 <YolandaGil> Zakim, this will be prov-wg
15:02:34 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, YolandaGil
15:02:39 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:02:39 <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as ??P7, dgarijo
15:02:44 <YolandaGil> Zakim, this will be prov
15:02:44 <Zakim> ok, YolandaGil, I see SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM already started
15:03:16 <GK_> zakim, who is on the phone
15:03:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', GK_
15:03:25 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P7 is dgarijo
15:03:25 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:03:28 <GK_> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, ??P2, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, ??P9
15:03:40 <Zakim> -??P2
15:03:41 <sandro> scribe: tlebo 
15:03:56 <Zakim> -??P9
15:03:58 <Zakim> +??P2
15:04:02 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, ??P2
15:04:04 <jorn> Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:04:04 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:04:20 <Zakim> +??P11
15:04:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh
15:04:33 <Zakim> -??P11
15:04:34 <Zakim> +zednik
15:04:47 <dgarijo>
15:04:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:57 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:04:58 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:04:58 <GK_> Having trouble with conference passcode again
15:05:02 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Incubator Review Session, slides:
15:05:07 <Zakim> +??P14
15:05:25 <Zakim> +??P8
15:05:36 <GK_> zakim, ??p8 is me
15:05:36 <Zakim> +GK_; got it
15:06:20 <tlebo> yolanda: notes the final report.
15:06:29 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:06:46 <dgarijo> the link to the final report:
15:07:11 <paolo_> paolo_ has joined #prov
15:07:20 <tlebo> topic: slide 3
15:07:35 <Zakim> +??P22
15:07:44 <jcheney> zakim, ??P22 is me
15:07:44 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:08:05 <tlebo> trust, what things are and what they mean, how it was collected. CLOSED SYSTEM - we know it all and trust it.
15:08:23 <GK_> Provenance: needed for operating in an open information system.  Make implicit expectations of closed system explicit.
15:08:24 <tlebo> contrast with OPEN SYSTEM - harder to use it because many contribute that you do not know.
15:08:45 <tlebo> consumer: how can I trust what I see?
15:09:10 <GK_> (Slide 3)^
15:09:38 <tlebo> Yolanda listing examles of multiple sources from which we collect evidence. who created it, who is responsible, whom do I attribute?
15:09:56 <Zakim> +??P24
15:10:00 <tlebo> how old, who is managing repository? how can we veify these aspects?
15:10:10 <tlebo> topic: slide 4
15:10:45 <tlebo> in business - how do we ensure compliance with processes. e.g., outsourcing and getting results.
15:11:18 <tlebo> in science - how are results obtained? papers can get retracted.
15:11:33 <tlebo> in news - 
15:11:37 <GK_> Wondering how much interaction is there between work on provenance and work on trust in open systems (e.g. trust conferences, etc.
15:11:57 <tlebo> in law and IP - who owns or has released document with what permissions?
15:12:15 <tlebo> topic: slide 5
15:12:44 <tlebo> TBL's oh yeah button quote 1997
15:13:26 <tlebo> trust at the top of the layer cake.
15:13:28 <tlebo> topic: slide 6
15:13:59 <tlebo> provenance need quotes.
15:14:16 <tlebo> topic: slide 7
15:14:28 <tlebo> open government
15:14:45 <Zakim> -frew
15:15:09 <tlebo> John Sheridan UK National Archives "Provenance is the number one issue that we face when publishing governmetn data in"
15:15:28 <Zakim> +frew
15:15:33 <tlebo> being able to qualify what the data means.
15:15:35 <tlebo> topic: slide 8
15:15:52 <tlebo> provenance in science. not being able to reproduce results.
15:16:25 <tlebo> research forensics - people that dissect publications failing to reproduce results. e.g. clinical trials being done are based on false results.
15:17:22 <tlebo> e.g. Nobel prize winner's paper was retracted becuase couldn't be reproduced (not the prize paper)
15:17:59 <tlebo> some think "provenance is a no brainer; just do it :-)"
15:18:13 <tlebo> topic: slide 9
15:18:27 <tlebo> work done in incubator group
15:18:37 <tlebo> topic: slide 10
15:18:38 <GK_> IMO, If we can't make it a (nearly) a no-brainer for developers, we'll struggle to make it happen
15:19:25 <tlebo> people don't know how to approach provenance.
15:19:53 <tlebo> linked data community if facing the problem - querying the linked data and getting triples that don't make sense. what text extraction tools produced them?
15:20:19 <tlebo> scattered terminology, confounded with "trust"
15:20:42 <GK_> Before "provenance", there was a fair amount of SemWeb interest in "Context"
15:20:50 <tlebo> increased interest in provenance: Luc claims 1/2 of provenance papers published in last two years.
15:20:53 <tlebo> topic: slide 11
15:21:13 <tlebo> incubator group: state of art and develop road map
15:21:41 <tlebo> topic: slide 12
15:22:06 <tlebo> topic: slide 13
15:22:27 <tlebo> shared definition done at VERY END of group's work.
15:23:08 <tlebo> summarized 30 use cases by using 3 flagship scenarios
15:23:22 <tlebo> reviewed existing provenance vocabularies.
15:24:28 <tlebo> numbers (11/15) are dates
15:24:36 <tlebo> topic: slide 14
15:24:46 <jorn> (month/day)
15:25:04 <tlebo> (slide assumes audience knows period of activity)
15:25:52 <GK_> I'd quite like to take this definition, and notes, into the WG work
15:26:31 <tlebo> provenance is the infrastructure that provides the BASIS to decide trust, verification, etc.
15:27:01 <tlebo> trust algorithm operate over provenance records.
15:27:40 <tlebo> provenance assertions of provenance assertions
15:28:02 <tlebo> infernece to handle incompleteness and errors.
15:28:11 <tlebo> different accounts for same resource.
15:28:23 <jorn> s/infernece/inference/
15:28:39 <tlebo> topic: slide 16
15:29:22 <tlebo> Three major dimensions to use to think about provenance.
15:30:04 <tlebo> Dimention 1 - content = what are we representing?
15:30:15 <tlebo> s/Dimention/Dimension/
15:31:45 <tlebo> (5 types of Dimension 1, Content: attribution, process, evolution and versioning, justification for decisions, and entailment)
15:31:54 <tlebo> Dimension 2 - Management
15:32:40 <GK_> @tlebo, still talking to (1) content, I think
15:33:12 <tlebo> (4 types of Dimension 2, Management: publication, access, dissemintation control, scale)
15:33:41 <tlebo> (@GK_ sorry, I confounded Data Access and Access)
15:33:53 <Zakim> -??P14
15:34:31 <tlebo> I know 2) Mangement - Access as "Discoverability and Accessibility"
15:34:37 <Zakim> +??P14
15:34:48 <paolo> zakim, ??P14 is me
15:34:48 <Zakim> +paolo; got it
15:34:50 <jorn> topic: slide 17
15:35:18 <jorn> Zakim, who is noisy?
15:35:23 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov
15:35:30 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [ISI] (31%), jorn (26%), paolo (86%)
15:35:46 <tlebo> Dimension 3 - Use includes (Understanding, interoperability, comparison, accountability, trust, imperfections, debugging)
15:35:49 <paolo> just muted myself, sorry
15:35:57 <tlebo> topic: slide 17
15:36:36 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
15:36:58 <pgroth> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:36:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see [ISI], tlebo, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, jorn, Yogesh, zednik, jun, GK_, jcheney, ??P24, frew, paolo
15:37:08 <tlebo> 3 Dimensions are a framework to think about provenance issues.
15:37:11 <tlebo> topic: slide 19
15:37:23 <pgroth> Zakim, +31.62.417.aaaa is me
15:37:23 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:37:23 <tlebo> 30 use cases from the community
15:37:33 <GK_> I've wrestled with these 3 dimensions; still not completely sure, but seems to be (1) what does provenance consist of; (2) how make provenance available; (3) what can I do with provenance once I get it?
15:38:02 <tlebo> spent a lot of time defining how to structure use cases.
15:38:05 <tlebo> topic: slide 21
15:38:16 <tlebo> 3 flagship scenarios
15:38:20 <tlebo> topic: slide 22
15:39:01 <tlebo> blogging news company needs to produce truthful and quality reports.
15:39:37 <tlebo> tweets of panda, NYTimes journalist - all different sources that the blogging news company can use.
15:39:43 <jcheney> By the way Yolanda there are slides for the Disease Outbreak scenario at:
15:39:49 <tlebo> did the tweeter modify the image of the panda?
15:39:56 <jorn> "without getting sued" :)
15:40:50 <tlebo> manage heterogenous provenance records. how to present them, how to expose more details.
15:40:53 <tlebo> topic: slide 25
15:40:58 <tlebo> disease outbreak
15:41:00 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov
15:41:56 <tlebo> different communities analyzing the outbreak
15:42:10 <tlebo> topic: slide 26
15:42:24 <Zakim> +luc
15:42:37 <tlebo> business scenario - how does a company show that they complied with a contract? letting the consumer run verification procedures.
15:42:52 <tlebo> keeping some processes proprietary, but not breaking the verification.
15:43:14 <tlebo> topic: slide 30
15:43:20 <tlebo> start of art report
15:43:40 <tlebo> topic: slide 31
15:43:52 <tlebo> areas of research and application for provenance
15:43:55 <tlebo> topic: slide 32
15:43:58 <tlebo> Luc's survey
15:44:57 <tlebo> (I organized the mappings at
15:45:40 <tlebo> yolanda enumerating the provenance vocabularies
15:46:33 <jorn> provenance surveys in literature:
15:46:37 <tlebo> origina mappings that Yolanda mentioned:
15:46:45 <tlebo> topic: slide 34
15:47:15 <tlebo> short vs longer term recommendations for next steps.
15:47:33 <tlebo> reproducability should be longer term
15:48:16 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:48:19 <tlebo> topic: open to questions
15:48:22 <pgroth> q?
15:48:45 <Zakim> -jorn
15:48:56 <GK_> q+
15:48:58 <Zakim> +??P2
15:49:06 <jorn> Zakim, ??p2 is me
15:49:06 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:49:56 <tlebo> GK_: relationships to other work? Trust in open systems. Has provenance work interacted with work in trust in open systems and the Trust Conferences.
15:50:22 <tlebo> Yolanda: published survey of Trust in CS and semweb 3/4 years ago. on prov-xg wiki state of the art report.
15:50:30 <jorn>
15:51:22 <tlebo> trust: can you trust a certain entity. Can I authenticate to give access. Develop algorithms that I trust you and you trust another (transfer of trust) PLENTY of work this.
15:51:37 <tlebo> LESS work on "can I trust this content" (as opposed to "can I trust this entity"
15:51:59 <tlebo> trust you on movie recommendation or using one road over another.
15:52:09 <tlebo> content-based trust research is quite narrow.
15:52:19 <tlebo> trusting agents vs. trusting content.
15:52:41 <Zakim> -frew
15:53:21 <tlebo> Yolanda: many say doing provenance is easy, just make a schema and do it.
15:53:42 <tlebo> but the content in the provenance record is one, but how do you access, manage, and use those records?
15:53:51 <tlebo> it requires many considerations.
15:54:13 <tlebo> need for standards - many systems that track provenance by themselves, but how can other systems get, read and use those records?
15:54:18 <GK_> q+ to test understanding of dimensions
15:54:28 <tlebo> need provenance in an open system where you don't have full control.
15:54:39 <pgroth> ack GK_
15:54:39 <Zakim> GK_, you wanted to test understanding of dimensions
15:55:07 <dgarijo> not only that, but provide guidelines for publishing provenance should be important too
15:55:41 <tlebo> GK_ how do 3 dimensions apply to doing a user requirements analysis? "what, how, and why" a fair reflection? 
15:55:44 <tlebo> yolanda: yes
15:56:28 <tlebo> q+ to ask about scientific applications.
15:57:15 <tlebo> tlebo: scientific apps? observation and measurements?
15:57:35 <tlebo> yolanda: use case 2, but there are MANY sociological aspects within that scientific process.
15:58:41 <tlebo> tlebo: is there a nugget of observation and measurement within the disease outbreak flagship scenario?
15:58:43 <tlebo> yolanda: yes.
15:58:58 <tlebo> pgroth: notion of objects
15:59:25 <Luc> thanks Yolanda!
15:59:29 <jun> thank you very much Yolanda!
15:59:30 <tlebo> +1 for Yolanda being helpful!
15:59:31 <pgroth> +1 thanks
15:59:32 <jorn> yupp, thanks a lot :)
15:59:33 <GK_> Thank you Yolanda. 
15:59:37 <paolo> thank you once again, Yolanda!
15:59:38 <dgarijo> thank Yolanda!
15:59:49 <dgarijo> *thanks
15:59:57 <Zakim> -Yogesh
16:00:01 <Zakim> -jcheney
16:00:03 <Zakim> -jun
16:00:03 <Zakim> -GK_
16:00:04 <Zakim> -jorn
16:00:04 <Zakim> -paolo
16:00:04 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:00:05 <Zakim> -luc
16:00:09 <Zakim> -??P24
16:00:14 <paolo> paolo has left #prov
16:00:16 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, set log public
16:00:25 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate YolandaGil