Chatlog 2011-05-19

See original RRSAgent log or preview nicely formatted version.

Please justify/explain all edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.

14:45:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:45:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-irc
14:45:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:45:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:45:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:45:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:45:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:45:07 <trackbot> Date: 19 May 2011
14:45:17 <luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:45:17 <Zakim> ok, luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:40 <luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
14:45:55 <luc> Chair: Paul Groth
14:46:08 <luc> Scribe: smiles
14:46:22 <luc> rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:38 <luc> Regrets: Kai Eckert
14:51:15 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:51:17 <Zakim> +??P12
14:51:28 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P12 is pgroth
14:51:28 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:51:37 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:51:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth
14:52:45 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
14:52:45 <Zakim> +luc
14:52:47 <Zakim> -luc
14:52:47 <Zakim> +luc
14:53:42 <Zakim> +??P21
14:53:55 <smiles> zakim, ??P21 is me
14:53:55 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
14:54:36 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
14:54:55 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
14:55:21 <simoninireland> simoninireland has joined #prov
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaaa
14:57:39 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
14:57:50 <Zakim> +??P22
14:58:06 <Zakim> +DavidSchaengold
14:58:08 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov
14:58:17 <DavidSchaengold> DavidSchaengold has joined #prov
14:58:30 <tlebo> What command do I use to associate my irc handle to my phone?
14:58:39 <Zakim> +??P30
#14:58:42 <EdoardoandDavid> EdoardoandDavid has joined #prov
14:58:44 <pgroth> \me Zakim blah is blah
14:59:13 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aabb
14:59:15 <jorn> Zakim: ??P30 is me
14:59:23 <tlebo> \me Zakim P22 is tlebo
14:59:26 <Zakim> +??P35
14:59:31 <Edoardo_and_David> Edoardo_and_David has joined #prov
14:59:32 <tlebo> Zakim P22 is tlebo
14:59:41 <CarlOGC> CarlOGC has joined #prov
14:59:49 <jorn> Zakim, ??P30 is me
14:59:49 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
14:59:50 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P22 is tlebo
14:59:50 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
14:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.805.893.aacc
14:59:52 <Zakim> +??P37
14:59:56 <frew> frew has joined #prov
15:00:00 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:00:12 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P37 is me
15:00:12 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:00:12 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:00:17 <Zakim> +??P3
15:00:34 <YogeshSimmhan> YogeshSimmhan has joined #prov
15:00:42 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov
15:00:45 <Zakim> +SatyaSahoo
15:00:46 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov
15:00:53 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:00:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's there?
15:00:54 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.
15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P4
15:01:03 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (28%)
15:01:28 <Zakim> +paolo_
15:01:34 <Zakim> +olaf
15:01:38 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:01:44 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:01:51 <luc> Guest: Paolo (paolo_) Missier 
15:01:54 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd
15:02:03 <iker> iker has joined #prov
15:02:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:14 <luc> Guest: Satya Sahoo  
15:02:18 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:02:22 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, [IPcaller]
15:02:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh
15:02:32 <luc> Guest: Yogesh Simmhan
15:02:35 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller] is jun
15:02:36 <Zakim> +??P40
15:02:40 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:02:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P40 is me
15:02:51 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:53 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:03:01 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:03:03 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney
15:03:04 <frew> I am +1.805.893.aacc
15:03:06 <Zakim> +??P42
15:03:31 <zednik> I am +1.518.633.aadd
15:03:40 <dgarijo> Zakim, 1.805.893.aacc is frew
15:03:40 <Zakim> sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '1.805.893.aacc'
15:03:45 <Zakim> +??P44
15:03:54 <Zakim> +??P8
15:03:56 <Christine> Hi. Sorry everyone. I'm not sure how to assign myself. Calling using VOIP. (Thanks Luc, you did send instructions.)
15:04:11 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:04:14 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, ??P8
15:04:14 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me
15:04:14 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:04:46 <GK_> GK_ has joined #prov
15:04:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:04:58 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame
15:05:00 <frew> +q
15:05:39 <jorn> zakim, aad is zednik
15:05:39 <Zakim> sorry, jorn, I do not recognize a party named 'aad'
15:05:40 <dgarijo> \me Type: "Zakim, <YOUR id> is me"
15:05:45 <jorn> zakim, aadd is zednik
15:05:45 <Zakim> +zednik; got it
15:05:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone
15:05:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', pgroth
15:06:01 <jorn> zakim, aacc is frew
15:06:01 <Zakim> +frew; got it
15:06:04 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,
15:06:09 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame
15:06:21 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
15:06:21 <Zakim> +??P17
15:06:27 <frew> zakim, frew is +1-805-893-7356
15:06:27 <Zakim> ++1-805-893-7356; got it
15:06:37 <smiles> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
15:06:37 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:06:46 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:06:52 <CarlOGC> zakim skype carl.n.reed CarlOGC
15:06:57 <GK> +??P44
15:07:01 <pgroth>   http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-05-12
15:07:01 <luc> Guest: Yolanda Gil
15:07:01 <smiles> TOPIC: Admin
15:07:01 <smiles> SUMMARY: The last minutes were accepted, active Wiki topics are now linked from the front page, invited expert issues are still being resolved by the W3C, and all are encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
15:07:02 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Last week's minutes
15:07:13 <pgroth> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of 12 May telecon
15:07:20 <simoninireland> +1
15:07:21 <dgarijo> +1
15:07:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:07:22 <satya> +1
15:07:23 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:07:23 <smiles> +1
15:07:23 <SamCoppens> zakim, +??44 is SamCoppens
15:07:23 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '+??44'
15:07:24 <frew> +1
15:07:25 <jcheney> +1
15:07:26 <jorn> +1
15:07:28 <tlebo> +1
15:07:29 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:07:37 <GK> +1
15:07:42 <olaf> +1
15:07:45 <iker> +1
15:07:46 <jun> +1
15:07:48 <SamCoppens> zakim, ??44 is SamCoppens
15:07:49 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '??44'
15:07:55 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1-805-893-7356, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:08:01 <Zakim> ... zednik, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda
15:08:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:08:14 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 25 (3%), pgroth (54%), DavidSchaengold (24%), ??P35 (51%), ??P44 (12%)
15:08:16 <pgroth> RESOLVED: minutes accepted
15:08:17 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Action items to review
15:08:18 <pgroth>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
15:08:25 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P44 is SamCoppens
15:08:25 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:08:31 <SamCoppens> thanks
15:09:02 <smiles> pgroth: completed action to add links to examples (active topics from front Wiki page)
15:09:14 <frew> zakim, +1-805-893-7356 is me
15:09:14 <Zakim> +frew; got it
15:09:23 <smiles> ... I encourage all to add links to the front page when there are new active topics
15:09:41 <satya> q+
15:09:46 <pgroth> ack frew
15:09:54 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Invited experts update
15:09:55 <smiles> pgroth: slowly resolving issues regarding getting everyone into the group, and on the mailing list
15:10:07 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:10:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,
15:10:10 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, SamCoppens, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda
15:10:19 <smiles> satya: how soon will invited expert issues be resolved?
15:10:30 <satya> q-
15:10:37 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
15:10:44 <smiles> pgroth: don't know, this is an issue that the W3C handles
15:10:47 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes
15:11:01 <Zakim> +??P44
15:11:13 <GK> zakim, ??P44 is me
15:11:13 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:11:16 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Scribes
15:11:17 <smiles> pgroth: we need scribes for the next weeks - please add you names, else will pick on people
15:11:36 <luc> see instructions http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp
15:11:44 <VinhNguyen> VinhNguyen has joined #prov
15:11:53 <luc> we can help set up before meeting
15:12:03 <smiles> pgroth: the responsibility of scribes is to write summaries of what people say, and instructions are available at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp
15:12:27 <pgroth>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample
15:12:42 <smiles> TOPIC: Data journalism example
15:12:43 <smiles> SUMMARY: We will use the current example to start model discussions, but can continue to comment on it on the mailing list, and will extend it when we find it cannot illustrate an important concept.
15:12:56 <jorn> zakim,, who|s noisy
15:13:00 <Zakim> I don't understand ', who|s noisy', jorn
15:13:05 <smiles> pgroth: we decided to take an example-based approach, comments were received, are there any more?
# 15:13:08 <khalidbelhajjame> there is noise on the line
15:13:09 <jorn> zakim, who's noisy
15:13:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', jorn
15:13:38 <GK> zakim, who is talking
15:13:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', GK
15:13:46 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:13:50 <dgarijo> zakim, who is making noise?
15:13:54 <Zakim> -jorn
15:13:58 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), +1.518.276.aaaa (4%), Yolanda (51%)
15:14:09 <Zakim> dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (5%), pgroth (32%), Yolanda (43%)
15:14:10 <smiles> YolandaG: likes the example, but where we illustrate what a provenance container is, we need to be clear that not all provenance may be in that container - one may need to access other areas to retrieve other provenance data for the resource
15:14:30 <Zakim> -smiles
# 15:14:34 <tlebo> yolanda: should consider situation where not all provenance is in the same "container", and would need to go fetch additional provenance for that resource.
15:14:35 <Zakim> +??P45
15:14:46 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me
15:14:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:14:56 <jun> +1 to YolandaG
# 15:14:58 <pgroth> can people use the queue
15:15:15 <luc> tlebo: multiple sources are not represented yet in the example
15:15:25 <Zakim> +VinhNguyen
15:15:32 <pgroth> Zakim, mute YolandaG
15:15:32 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to YolandaG
15:15:35 <Zakim> +??P46
15:15:40 <pgroth> Zakim, mute Yolanda
15:15:40 <Zakim> Yolanda should now be muted
15:15:55 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:16:02 <pgroth> q?
15:16:06 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (9%), pgroth (43%), DavidSchaengold (13%), ??P35 (14%), smiles (18%)
# 15:16:29 <luc> carlOGC: to send a few words to incorporate map 
15:16:38 <smiles> CarlOGC: asks about incorporating a map into the example, and will send to the mailing list a few words to incorporate 
15:16:49 <tlebo> would the group mind expanding the variables used in the scenario? (e.g. lcp1)
<luc> post meeting editing: lcp stands for local copy
15:17:12 <tlebo> +1 to continuing with example.
15:17:27 <smiles> pgroth: can we proceed with example as is, and expand as we go along - nice to move on to discussing concepts
15:17:29 <GK> +1 to moving on, update example as needed.
15:17:48 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for continuing to change the example along instead of trying to get right now
15:17:55 <pgroth> proposal: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands
15:17:57 <YogeshSimmhan> +1
15:17:58 <jorn> +1
15:18:00 <dgarijo> +1
15:18:02 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:18:02 <satya> I agree, we should start with the example and let it evolve
15:18:02 <tlebo> +1
15:18:03 <olaf> +1 to moving on
15:18:03 <smiles> +1
15:18:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:18:06 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:18:07 <SamCoppens> +1
15:18:09 <paolo> +1
15:18:11 <jun> +1
15:18:12 <iker> +1 moving on
15:18:15 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (27%)
15:18:18 <zednik> +1
15:18:19 <simoninireland> +1
15:18:20 <jcheney> +1
15:18:23 <jorn> zakim, please mute khalidbelhajjame 
15:18:23 <Zakim> khalidbelhajjame should now be muted
15:18:28 <VinhNguyen> +1
15:18:35 <GK> +1
15:18:37 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
# 15:18:57 <frew> if you are in a public place then please mute
15:19:01 <pgroth> proposal accepted
15:19:01 <smiles> RESOLVED: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands
15:19:02 <tlebo> +q
15:19:03 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:19:15 <Zakim> +??P8
15:19:28 <smiles> tlebo: what are the next steps beyond making tweaks to scenario?
15:19:33 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me
15:19:35 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:20:05 <dgarijo> +q
15:20:23 <smiles> pgroth: proceed as we have been doing by email to discuss example
# 15:20:27 <tlebo> pgroth: how to proceed with current example: continue to discuss via email.
15:20:40 <luc> ack tlebo
15:20:46 <pgroth> ack dgarijo
15:20:53 <smiles> dgarijo: proposal to add another example(s) on mailing list, to capture scientific domain
15:20:54 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:20:57 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy?
# 15:20:57 <tlebo> []: do we create a new example to capture scientific domain.
15:20:58 <satya> q+
15:21:11 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidSchaengold (59%), ??P35 (29%)
# 15:21:15 <pgroth> i droped
15:21:17 <tlebo> q?
# 15:21:20 <pgroth> can you take over luc
# 15:21:37 <luc> yes
15:21:42 <jorn> zakim, please mute DavidSchaengold
15:21:42 <Zakim> DavidSchaengold should now be muted
15:21:47 <tlebo> q?
# 15:21:50 <dgarijo> finally!
15:21:52 <Zakim> +??P12
15:22:08 <pgroth> zakim, ??P12 is pgroth
15:22:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:22:27 <tlebo> proposal: create an additional example for scientific domain.
15:22:51 <smiles> luc: we agreed last time to start with first example for discussing concepts, and bring other examples when they are found to be needed
15:22:54 <satya> q-
# 15:23:04 <tlebo> luc: we agreed to start with this example to discuss concepts. When this scenario does not capture the concepts of sci prov, we develop new example.
15:23:17 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov
15:23:33 <tlebo> +1 working with the example as is.
15:23:36 <smiles> pgroth: we need to move on discussing concepts, but can keep iterating
15:23:58 <smiles> TOPIC: Provenance access and query task force
15:23:59 <smiles> SUMMARY: The Provenance Access and Query Task Force will start from the incubator group report for developing a draft architecture. We will not design a query language, but will say how existing query languages/models work with the architecture.
15:24:04 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0071.html
15:24:15 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Access_and_Query_Task_Force
15:24:31 <smiles> pgroth: there has been discussion of architecture on mailing list
15:24:31 <smiles> ... any comments on how to get tf started?
15:24:49 <Zakim> +paulo
15:24:50 <smiles> olaf: we agreed on a set of objectives for the task force in time for the F2F meeting
15:25:20 <smiles> ... a including draft for access and query architecture
15:25:21 <smiles> PROPOSED: base draft architecture on proposal in XG report at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov/
15:25:22 <iker> +1 olaf proposal
15:25:41 <GK> q+, to say I'm not sure how the provenance XG report really works as a foundation
15:25:46 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Olaf's proposal
15:25:57 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov
15:26:03 <dgarijo> +1
15:26:07 <SamCoppens> +1
15:26:50 <smiles> GK: not clear from XG report what the problem trying to be solved is
15:26:50 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaee
# 15:27:08 <tlebo> []: we need a clear problem statement for PAQ-TF.
15:27:12 <satya> q+
15:27:18 <smiles> ... will send thoughts to mailing list on this
15:27:26 <paulo> q+
15:27:41 <luc> ack satya
15:27:46 <smiles> satya: agree with Olaf, but in XG report did not discuss query mechanism only access
15:27:58 <smiles> ... will we discuss query separately?
15:28:21 <smiles> pgroth: olaf's proposal was around access, fit into web architecture
15:28:33 <luc> q+
15:29:57 <Zakim> -jorn
# 15:30:00 <tlebo> paulo: we need questions for the provenance example.
15:30:15 <smiles> paulo: we have scenario with list of questions which could be posed, but should have queries which motivate problem, and design for answering the questions asked
15:30:16 <Zakim> +??P45
15:30:25 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me
15:30:25 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:30:34 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample#Provenance_Questions
15:31:18 <smiles> luc: discussions on access task force were good, and feedback on XG report was positive
15:31:31 <smiles> ... in those discussions, we were pointed to POWDER as something to consider
15:32:06 <smiles> ... queries are in scope of this WG, but not intent of WG to design a query language for provenance
15:32:40 <GK> +1 not designing a query language
15:32:45 <smiles> pgroth: two proposals to proceed: first, use incubator group report section to build on
15:32:59 <GK> q+ to say not opposing use of XG doc
15:33:05 <pgroth> ack paulo
15:33:07 <pgroth> ack luc
15:33:09 <YogeshSimmhan> +1 to olaf proposal to use XG report as starting point
15:33:16 <Zakim> -Yogesh
15:33:18 <smiles> ... second, more crisply define the problems we are trying to solve first
15:33:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:33:44 <smiles> +1
15:33:45 <Zakim> +Yogesh
15:33:45 <SamCoppens> +1
15:33:45 <jcheney> +1 for starting point
15:33:46 <simoninireland> +1
15:33:47 <olaf> +1
15:33:48 <jorn> +1
15:33:49 <dgarijo> +1
15:33:50 <tlebo> +1
15:33:50 <ericstephan> +1
15:33:51 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:33:55 <jun> +1 for starting point
15:33:56 <GK> +1 (taking into account resevrations noted in email)
15:34:04 <satya> I also propose that we rename PAQ task force as provenance access task force
15:34:05 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:34:09 <satya> +1
15:34:11 <dgarijo> also, +1 to not designing a new query language.
15:34:25 <Zakim> -paulo
15:34:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:34:27 <ericstephan> ericstephan - is ericstephan - btw :-)
15:34:34 <pgroth> ack GK
15:34:34 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say not opposing use of XG doc
15:34:38 <GK> q-
15:34:48 <ericstephan> ericstephan has left #prov
15:34:51 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame
15:35:24 <smiles> khalid: if a query language is outside scope of the WG, we should be clear that we are only discussing access
15:35:26 <smiles> RESOLVED: use incubator report access architecture as starting point for access and query task force F2F draft
15:35:30 <GK> q+ to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK
15:35:37 <luc> It is still the case that we may want to explain how to use, say SPARQL, to query provenance
15:35:38 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov
15:35:48 <satya> q+
15:36:36 <smiles> pgroth: could rename access and query task force to access only, but we also have reference to sparql endpoints etc in charter
15:36:48 <Zakim> +paulo
15:36:57 <satya> q-
15:36:57 <pgroth> q?
15:37:00 <smiles> satya: not proposing new query language, but we can say how existing languages to fit into architecture
15:37:36 <smiles> GK: maybe it is in scope how to make use of existing query languages and mechanisms
15:38:12 <smiles> TOPIC: Concepts illustration
15:38:13 <smiles> SUMMARY: We will have a Wiki page per concept and use the issue tracker to discuss definitions. Definitions will be informal and grounded with the example.
15:38:31 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0018.html
15:38:39 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
15:38:45 <smiles> pgroth: asked people to discuss how example can be used to illustrate concepts from charter
15:39:23 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov
15:39:28 <paulo> q+
15:39:29 <smiles> ... used scenario to propose examples for concepts - not many comments yet - are the concept examples reasonable?
15:39:39 <pgroth> ack GK
# 15:39:39 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK
15:39:45 <pgroth> ack paulo
15:40:05 <Altintas> Altintas has joined #prov
15:40:19 <smiles> paulo: maybe limiting that example is so focused on a process
15:42:02 <smiles> ... use of process may blind us to cover all aspects we need
15:42:44 <paulo> q+
15:42:48 <smiles> pgroth: we want to define the set of concepts we want to use, need a process for this activity
15:43:34 <smiles> ... (as in a process for the working group, not a process in the example/model)
15:43:44 <luc> paul: explain what an issue is
15:43:54 <pgroth> What term do we adopt for concept 'xxx' and how do we define it?"
15:44:13 <luc> paul, please explain what an issue is
15:44:13 <smiles> pgroth: suggest we raise an issue for each concept in the charter of form above
15:44:30 <ericstephan> q+
15:44:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/
15:44:39 <Zakim> - +1.509.375.aaee
15:44:45 <smiles> ... an issue is something which can be raised in the tracker for discussion until resolution
15:44:57 <pgroth> q-
# 15:45:02 <pgroth> eric?
# 15:45:22 <ericstephan> lost connection getting back on
15:45:27 <paulo> q+
15:45:29 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaff
15:45:37 <smiles> pgroth: we raise issues for the initial set of concepts from charter, and if new concepts people can raise them as issues
15:45:41 <Zakim> -jorn
15:45:43 <jorn> zakim, aaff probably is ericstephan 
15:45:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff probably is ericstephan', jorn
15:45:44 <ericstephan> q+ again sorry
15:45:56 <Zakim> +??P14
15:46:07 <jorn> zakim, ??P14 is me
15:46:08 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:46:34 <jcheney> "issue" is just the name for something the tracker tracks...
15:46:46 <smiles> paulo: consider questions we have to be answered with model, as we may have concepts which are not answering any question
15:46:46 <luc> paulo has got a point, we have a list of queries associated with the example
15:47:04 <luc> a "w3c issue" is like a bug in bugzilla
15:47:35 <jcheney> some of them might be uncontroversial and so "resolved" immediately.
15:48:13 <jorn> zakim, aaff is probably ericstephan 
15:48:13 <Zakim> +ericstephan; got it
15:48:18 <smiles> luc: paulo is right that we do not want concepts not used in any queries, so we need to show how they are used to answer queries
15:48:25 <smiles> ... we have a list of queries in the example and need to extend it over time
15:48:48 <smiles> PROPOSED: raise issue for discussing each concept definition
15:48:49 <satya> for raising issue?
15:48:49 <simoninireland> +1
15:48:49 <tlebo> +1 using tracker 
15:48:49 <Zakim> -Yolanda
15:48:50 <dgarijo> +1
15:48:51 <ericstephan> +1
15:48:52 <satya> +1
15:48:52 <jorn> +1
15:48:53 <jcheney> +1
15:48:53 <smiles> +1
15:48:53 <GK> +1
15:48:54 <jun> +1
15:48:54 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:48:54 <zednik> +1
15:48:54 <Altintas> +1
15:48:55 <frew> +1
15:48:55 <SamCoppens> +1
15:48:56 <paulo> q+
15:48:57 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:48:58 <olaf> +1
15:48:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:49:00 <YogeshSimmhan> +1
15:49:00 <jcheney> q+
15:49:58 <smiles> eric: can connection task force use these concepts to identify which groups they may pertain to?
15:50:25 <pgroth> ack paulo
15:50:32 <pgroth> ack eristephan
15:50:41 <pgroth> q?
15:50:51 <smiles> jcheney: when using issue tracker, there is a formal process for asking for comments from outside
15:51:20 <smiles> ... guidance says good to have examples to illustrate disagreements
15:51:30 <dgarijo> ack ericstephan
15:51:31 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#formal-address
15:51:34 <jcheney> q-
15:52:06 <smiles> RESOLVED: use issue tracking to discuss concept definitions
15:52:32 <smiles> pgroth: how to suggest definitions?
15:52:33 <tlebo> wiki?
15:52:34 <luc> a wiki page per concept?
15:52:44 <tlebo> +1
15:52:47 <zednik> +1
# 15:52:52 <luc> i don't think so
15:53:03 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 a wiki page per concept
15:53:05 <ericstephan> +1 luc's idea
15:53:07 <jorn> +1
15:53:12 <smiles> pgroth: once we have a wiki page per concept, then what?
15:53:13 <satya> +1 for wiki page
15:53:15 <tlebo> q+
15:53:16 <luc> so, when we raise an issue, we also create the corresponding wiki page
15:53:22 <olaf> +1
15:53:29 <satya> Create a definition for the concept
15:53:35 <jun> +1
15:53:41 <SamCoppens> +1
15:53:45 <GK> q+ to suggest that someone familiar with W3C support tools should make proposal (on list, with links) then have us throw rocks at it?
15:53:47 <smiles> tlebo: use wiki to represent current definition, have wiki link as part of the tracker (issue)
15:53:57 <dgarijo> +1
15:53:58 <jorn> there are history links in the wiki, aren't they? so use them in emails?
15:53:59 <Altintas> +1
15:54:11 <luc> q+
15:54:16 <luc> ack again
15:54:18 <luc> ack sorry
15:54:20 <smiles> pgroth: how to get first set of definitions?
15:54:21 <satya> from the XG final report?
15:54:24 <luc> q+
15:54:59 <smiles> GK: maybe more productive for someone familiar with W3C tooling put something initial together
15:55:35 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov
15:55:43 <GK> q-
15:55:47 <smiles> luc: proposal of inviting submitting definitions is good, but some definitions may be mutually dependent, so need mechanism to cross-ref definitions
15:55:51 <luc> q-
15:55:53 <satya> a note on the wiki page of the concept to cross-reference?
15:56:23 <Zakim> -??P3
15:56:28 <smiles> PROPOSED: idea is everyone allowed to submit own definitions, then merge
15:56:29 <GK> q+ to suggest suggested definitions should be grounded in example
15:56:37 <luc> or is better to put one proposal, which get discussed?
15:56:44 <tlebo> concept references within a definition can link via wiki link.
15:56:58 <smiles> GK: in asking people to submit, could ask that grounded in example?
15:57:04 <dgarijo> +1
15:57:32 <smiles> pgroth: (agree with GK, add to proposal above)
15:57:43 <satya> + 1 for proposal 1
15:57:51 <smiles> pgroth: alternative proposal to start with one definition, and edit (based on example)
15:57:55 <luc> ... or propose alternative definition
15:57:56 <tlebo> multiple working definitions could be placed onto the same concept's wiki page
15:57:57 <GK> q+ point of order: proposals not mutually exclusive?
15:58:53 <tlebo> what percentage of the working group can edit the wiki?
15:58:54 <smiles> GK: just suggesting that whatever process used, ground in example
15:58:59 <luc> q+
15:59:25 <jcheney> +q
15:59:25 <GK> q-
15:59:27 <luc> q-
15:59:33 <pgroth> ack tlebo
15:59:36 <smiles> luc: maybe difficult to come up with initial definitions - instead paraphrase something rather than formal definition
16:00:04 <smiles> jcheney: formal or informal definitions?
16:00:11 <paulo> q+
16:00:16 <zednik> +1 informal
16:00:20 <jcheney> q-
16:00:23 <jorn> +1 for informal first...
16:00:25 <Zakim> -??P42
16:00:32 <dgarijo> +1 to informal
16:00:33 <luc> q+
16:00:34 <tlebo> re: formality, have both rdfs/owl statements and inform descriptions on same wiki page for the concept?
16:00:52 <smiles> paulo: agree on distinction between informal and formal definitions (are informal definitions actually definitions?)
16:01:23 <Zakim> -jorn
16:01:28 <smiles> luc: half of wg did not belong to incubator, we are first trying to build a shared vocabulary
16:01:36 <GK> +1 to building shared vocabulary
16:01:48 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov
16:01:53 <Zakim> +??P62
16:01:58 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
16:02:00 <zednik> +1 to building shared vocabularly
16:02:06 <jorn> Zakim, ??p62 is me
16:02:06 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
16:02:06 <smiles> ... starting with a formal definition is not helpful, informal definition using paraphrasing, examples, graphical notation is better
16:02:19 <olaf> +1 for proposal 1 with informal definitions
16:02:28 <jun> + informal
16:02:30 <dgarijo> +1
16:02:30 <jcheney> +1
16:02:31 <jorn> +1
16:02:31 <zednik> +1
16:02:31 <tlebo> +1 formal +1 informal
16:02:33 <ericstephan> +1
16:02:33 <frew> +1
16:02:34 <satya> +1 for informal
16:02:35 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
16:02:36 <pgroth> proposal  for informal to start
16:02:38 <smiles> pgroth: informal definitions to start?
16:02:39 <smiles> +1
16:02:41 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
16:02:43 <paolo> +1 informal
16:02:44 <dgarijo> +1 informal
16:02:44 <DavidSchaengold> +1 for informal
16:02:45 <GK> +1 start informal, build shared vocab
16:02:46 <CarlOGC> +1
16:02:48 <YogeshSimmhan> +1
16:02:48 <Altintas> +1
16:02:50 <SamCoppens> +1
16:02:54 <Altintas> or informal
16:03:28 <Zakim> -frew
16:03:31 <smiles> RESOLVED: start with informal definitions, grounded with example
16:03:32 <smiles> pgroth: will set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts
16:03:32 <Zakim> -jun
16:03:33 <smiles> ACTION: Paul to set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts
16:03:34 <Zakim> -SatyaSahoo
16:03:35 <Zakim> -ericstephan
16:03:36 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaaa
16:03:39 <Zakim> -jcheney
16:03:41 <Zakim> -DavidSchaengold
16:03:42 <paolo> paolo has left #prov
16:03:43 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
16:03:45 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:03:47 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aabb
16:03:49 <Zakim> -olaf
16:03:51 <Zakim> -Yogesh
16:03:53 <Zakim> -paolo_
16:03:55 <Zakim> -zednik
16:03:57 <Zakim> -VinhNguyen
16:04:01 <Zakim> -luc
16:04:01 <smiles> rrsagent, set log public
16:04:03 <Zakim> -GK
# 16:04:04 <ericstephan> Yes Zakim?
16:04:07 <Zakim> -paulo
16:04:07 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov
16:04:09 <Zakim> -??P35
16:04:11 <smiles> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html smiles
16:04:15 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:04:17 <Zakim> -??P4
# 16:04:17 <luc> thanks simon
16:04:21 <Zakim> -??P17
16:04:27 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:04:28 <smiles> trackbot, end telcon
16:04:28 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:04:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, DavidSchaengold, +1.858.210.aabb, jorn, tlebo, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, SatyaSahoo, paolo_, olaf,
16:04:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:04:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:04:32 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, Yogesh, jun, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, zednik, Yolanda, SamCoppens, frew, GK, VinhNguyen, paulo, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.509.375.aaff, ericstephan
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC.  DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW.  SRCLINESUSED=00000588