Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 06 October 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.10.06
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Curt Tilmes, Eric Stephan, James Cheney, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Stephan Zednik, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Timothy Lebo, Yolanda Gil
Regrets
Paolo Missier
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Eric Stephan
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Drop 'formel model' name for referring to the semantic web ontology link
Topics
  1. Primer

    Yolanda Gil goes over the plan for the primer. Aim to have something ready within a month. Primer should consider both model and query, however, the model is the first goal.

  2. Renaming Deliverables

    The group agrees to drop the term "formel model" to refer to the semantic web ontology. Terms are requested for a vote at the next telecon.

  3. OWL Ontology

    Satya reviewed the status of the OWL Ontology. Goal is to address current issues while preparing the document for FPWD. Tim Lebo went over his proposal for dealing with accounts using named graphs. He was encouraged to continue to bring it to the attention of the RDF working group

  4. First Public Working Drafts

    Asked for support in advertising FPWD. Also discussed the status of the questionnaire.

14:51:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-irc

14:51:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:51:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:51:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:51:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:51:40 <trackbot> Date: 06 October 2011
14:51:53 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.10.06
14:52:02 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:52:12 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:52:29 <pgroth> Zakim, who is here?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is here?

14:52:29 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is

14:52:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro

14:52:42 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:52:54 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

14:53:06 <pgroth> Zakim, who is here?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is here?

14:53:14 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, pgroth

14:53:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro

14:53:50 <stain_> two of me!

Stian Soiland-Reyes: two of me!

14:55:39 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:55:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:55:48 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call?

14:55:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [IPcaller]

14:56:06 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

14:56:06 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:56:19 <pgroth> does anyone want to scribe?

Paul Groth: does anyone want to scribe?

14:57:56 <pgroth> Regrets: Paolo Missier
14:58:00 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

14:58:58 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.789.470.aaaa

14:59:05 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:59:14 <stain> Zakim, +44.789.470.aaaa is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, +44.789.470.aaaa is me

14:59:14 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

14:59:16 <pgroth> Stephan can you scribe?

Paul Groth: Stephan can you scribe?

15:00:14 <Zakim> +??P64

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P64

15:00:19 <jcheney> zakim, ??p64 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??p64 is me

15:00:31 <Zakim> +??P65

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P65

15:00:44 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:00:47 <Zakim> + +1.509.967.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.509.967.aabb

15:00:51 <pgroth> scribe anybody?

Paul Groth: scribe anybody?

15:01:05 <Zakim> +??P73

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P73

15:01:15 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:01:42 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?

Timothy Lebo: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:55 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aacc

15:02:03 <tlebo> zakim, aac is lebot

Timothy Lebo: zakim, aac is lebot

15:02:06 <stain> yes, Satya would be talking a bit today ;)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: yes, Satya would be talking a bit today ;)

15:02:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Curt_Tilmes, stain, Luc, jcheney, ??P65, +1.509.967.aabb, ??P73, Satya_Sahoo, +1.315.330.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Curt_Tilmes, stain, Luc, jcheney, ??P65, +1.509.967.aabb, ??P73, Satya_Sahoo, +1.315.330.aacc

15:02:10 <tlebo> zakim, 315 is me

Timothy Lebo: zakim, 315 is me

15:02:25 <tlebo> zakim, aacc is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: zakim, aacc is tlebo

15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P48

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P48

15:02:31 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named 'aac'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named 'aac'

15:02:36 <kai> zakim, ??P48 is probably me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P48 is probably me.

15:02:37 <tlebo> zakim, just know what I mean!

Timothy Lebo: zakim, just know what I mean!

15:02:47 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '315'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '315'

15:02:50 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aadd

15:02:55 <Zakim> +??P84

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P84

15:02:57 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:02:59 <Zakim> +kai?; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai?; got it

15:03:01 <pgroth> pgroth: ask for scribes

Paul Groth: ask for scribes [ Scribe Assist by Paul Groth ]

15:03:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'just know what I mean!', tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'just know what I mean!', tlebo

15:03:20 <pgroth> Scribe: ericstephan

(Scribe set to Eric Stephan)

15:03:30 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:03:54 <pgroth> Minutes

Paul Groth: Minutes

15:03:55 <pgroth>   http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-09-29

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-09-29

15:04:02 <Zakim> +??P55

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P55

15:04:03 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Sep 29 telecon

Paul Groth: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Sep 29 telecon

15:04:05 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:04:07 <stain> Zakim never recognizes me.. on http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3 exactly what do I need to fill in? stain or ssoiland or Stian Soiland-Reyes? +44....aaa or with the real digits?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim never recognizes me.. on http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3 exactly what do I need to fill in? stain or ssoiland or Stian Soiland-Reyes? +44....aaa or with the real digits?

15:04:08 <ericstephan> pgroth:  proposal to accept minutes

Paul Groth: proposal to accept minutes

15:04:09 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:04:09 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:04:10 <kai> +1

Kai Eckert: +1

15:04:11 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:04:11 <ericstephan> +1

+1

15:04:18 <stain> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

15:04:19 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:04:24 <stain> I was not there, but you represented me well ;)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I was not there, but you represented me well ;)

15:04:31 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P84 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P84 is me

15:04:39 <pgroth> ACCEPTED minutes from last week

Paul Groth: ACCEPTED minutes from last week

15:04:55 <ericstephan> pgroth:  no action items to review

Paul Groth: no action items to review

15:05:02 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

15:05:19 <ericstephan> pgroth:  reminder we need scribes in advance.  Please sign up.

Paul Groth: reminder we need scribes in advance. Please sign up.

15:05:30 <pgroth> TOPIC: Primer

1. Primer

Summary: Yolanda Gil goes over the plan for the primer. Aim to have something ready within a month. Primer should consider both model and query, however, the model is the first goal.

<pgroth> Summary: Yolanda Gil goes over the plan for the primer. Aim to have something ready within a month. Primer should consider both model and query, however, the model is the first goal.
15:05:34 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:05:56 <ericstephan> yolanda: discussing Primer

Yolanda Gil: discussing Primer

15:06:08 <YolandaGil>  http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html

Yolanda Gil: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html

15:06:16 <ericstephan> yolanda:  Initial plan was developed last Friday

Yolanda Gil: Initial plan was developed last Friday

15:06:34 <ericstephan> yolanda:  two major sections...

Yolanda Gil: two major sections...

15:06:51 <ericstephan> yolanda:  Intro to provenance concepts...informal

Yolanda Gil: Intro to provenance concepts...informal

15:07:05 <ericstephan> yolanda:  Second half worked out examples

Yolanda Gil: Second half worked out examples

15:07:34 <ericstephan> yolanda: wants to use examples based on ths same general scenario

Yolanda Gil: wants to use examples based on ths same general scenario

15:08:25 <tlebo> +q to mention http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples

Timothy Lebo: +q to mention http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples

15:08:27 <ericstephan> yolanda:  Simon created skeleton doc.

Yolanda Gil: Simon created skeleton doc.

15:09:34 <ericstephan> Yolanda:  For each example section Yolanda/Simon asked for people to fill out each part

Yolanda Gil: For each example section Yolanda/Simon asked for people to fill out each part

15:10:08 <ericstephan> Yolanda: Having the doc ready in 3-4 weeks sufficient?

Yolanda Gil: Having the doc ready in 3-4 weeks sufficient?

15:10:49 <tlebo> 3-4 weeks is reasonable goal.

Timothy Lebo: 3-4 weeks is reasonable goal.

15:10:49 <Luc> it's ambitious, I believe

Luc Moreau: it's ambitious, I believe

15:11:00 <tlebo> (emphasis on "goal")

Timothy Lebo: (emphasis on "goal")

15:11:17 <stain> Is that 3-4 weeks for first public draft of the primer, or to be ready for in-group review?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Is that 3-4 weeks for first public draft of the primer, or to be ready for in-group review?

15:11:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:11:26 <ericstephan> Yolanda:  2 weeks the group would work out examples.  2 weeks would be reviewed by the group overall

Yolanda Gil: 2 weeks the group would work out examples. 2 weeks would be reviewed by the group overall

15:11:46 <YolandaGil> first in group review Stian

Yolanda Gil: first in group review Stian

15:11:50 <ericstephan> Tim: Has been collecting examples in the wiki that could be drawn upon

Timothy Lebo: Has been collecting examples in the wiki that could be drawn upon

15:11:55 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:11:55 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:11:56 <satya> +1 for including the examples by Tim

Satya Sahoo: +1 for including the examples by Tim

15:11:57 <stain> that's very helpful, tlebo

Stian Soiland-Reyes: that's very helpful, tlebo

15:11:59 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

15:11:59 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to mention http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples

Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to mention http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples

15:12:01 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:12:02 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:12:17 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:12:18 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:12:42 <ericstephan> Luc:  Very ambitious, it would be good to have this within the month for the overall group

Luc Moreau: Very ambitious, it would be good to have this within the month for the overall group

15:13:34 <stain> I've done my examples both in TTL and PROV-ASN - but manually, of course

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I've done my examples both in TTL and PROV-ASN - but manually, of course

15:13:39 <satya> Luc is mentioning this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-owl2-primer-20091027/#OWL_Syntaxes

Satya Sahoo: Luc is mentioning this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-owl2-primer-20091027/#OWL_Syntaxes

15:13:47 <ericstephan> Luc: If the examples could be organized so that they could be expressed in different ways this would be nice

Luc Moreau: If the examples could be organized so that they could be expressed in different ways this would be nice

15:14:22 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:14:24 <ericstephan> Luc: We want to make sure the Primer stays insync with the schemas as they emerge.  Script checks would be nice

Luc Moreau: We want to make sure the Primer stays insync with the schemas as they emerge. Script checks would be nice

15:14:52 <stain> many JS-experts who know how to do that include-thingie?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: many JS-experts who know how to do that include-thingie?

15:15:07 <tlebo> automated verification of examples "stuck in HTML" is a great idea. I'm willing to take lead on that.

Timothy Lebo: automated verification of examples "stuck in HTML" is a great idea. I'm willing to take lead on that.

15:15:08 <ericstephan> Luc: Within the context of the primer, the ontology group should be able to give you guidance

Luc Moreau: Within the context of the primer, the ontology group should be able to give you guidance

15:15:10 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

15:15:13 <stain> alternatively an XHTML-extraction-tool could try to dump out everything say <pre class="example">

Stian Soiland-Reyes: alternatively an XHTML-extraction-tool could try to dump out everything say <pre class="example">

15:15:25 <tlebo> +1 @stian

Timothy Lebo: +1 @stian

15:15:34 <Luc> respect.js allows for inclusion of files ...

Luc Moreau: respect.js allows for inclusion of files ...

15:15:45 <ericstephan> Satya:  Overview comments...the primer should cover the modeling aspects, but also the querying aspects

Satya Sahoo: Overview comments...the primer should cover the modeling aspects, but also the querying aspects

15:16:20 <ericstephan> Satya:  It would be helpful with a scenario like the data model group

Satya Sahoo: It would be helpful with a scenario like the data model group

15:16:26 <Luc> respec.js allows for inclusion of files ...

Luc Moreau: respec.js allows for inclusion of files ...

15:16:42 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:16:46 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:16:52 <ericstephan> Satya:  After the scenario bring out these capabiltieis

Satya Sahoo: After the scenario bring out these capabiltieis

15:17:31 <ericstephan> Yolanda:  Simon and I talked about bringing out three different perspectives of provenance

Yolanda Gil: Simon and I talked about bringing out three different perspectives of provenance

15:17:55 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:18:05 <stain> <div data-include='myDatatypes.xsd'></div>

Stian Soiland-Reyes: <div data-include='myDatatypes.xsd'></div>

15:18:09 <ericstephan> Yolanda:  Document, process, and other perspectives views might be helpful

Yolanda Gil: Document, process, and other perspectives views might be helpful

15:18:16 <Luc> q+ to ask if primer is just about model or also about PAQ

Luc Moreau: q+ to ask if primer is just about model or also about PAQ

15:18:24 <satya> @Yolanda +1

Satya Sahoo: @Yolanda +1

15:18:28 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

15:19:09 <ericstephan> Khalid: My only worry is hitting the relationship between concepts...could we give concepts in relationship to importance so that the reader could follow it?

Khalid Belhajjame: My only worry is hitting the relationship between concepts...could we give concepts in relationship to importance so that the reader could follow it?

15:19:26 <tlebo> +1 daniel, deemphasizing the focus on the concepts might make it more approachable.

Timothy Lebo: +1 daniel, deemphasizing the focus on the concepts might make it more approachable.

15:19:30 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:19:39 <ericstephan> Yolanda:  It would definitely make the primer more usable.

Yolanda Gil: It would definitely make the primer more usable.

15:19:45 <pgroth> ack luc

Paul Groth: ack luc

15:19:45 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to ask if primer is just about model or also about PAQ

Zakim IRC Bot: Luc, you wanted to ask if primer is just about model or also about PAQ

15:19:56 <stain> @khalidbelhajjame +1 - the other two documents are already "sequential" by class/property, so a non-sequential prioritised example would help

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @khalidbelhajjame +1 - the other two documents are already "sequential" by class/property, so a non-sequential prioritised example would help

15:20:26 <ericstephan> Luc:  Two questions...It feels like the primer is just about the provenance ontology, what about the provenance of (sorry couldn't hear)

Luc Moreau: Two questions...It feels like the primer is just about the provenance ontology, what about the provenance of (sorry couldn't hear)

15:20:50 <stain> Luc: ... provenance access and query document

Luc Moreau: ... provenance access and query document [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:21:20 <ericstephan> Luc: Second point a number of common relations in the data model not listed here...its important that they are addressed.

Luc Moreau: Second point a number of common relations in the data model not listed here...its important that they are addressed.

15:22:08 <ericstephan> Yolanda:  I think it would be good to have a first draft to see what needs to be improved...to show what is shown in primer vs practice

Yolanda Gil: I think it would be good to have a first draft to see what needs to be improved...to show what is shown in primer vs practice

15:22:11 <tlebo> pushing shortcut aspects to Best Practices makes sense.

Timothy Lebo: pushing shortcut aspects to Best Practices makes sense.

15:22:14 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:23:03 <tlebo> Primer some reads a couple of times, then moves to regularly reference the Best Practices for design solutions to apply to their problems.

Timothy Lebo: Primer some reads a couple of times, then moves to regularly reference the Best Practices for design solutions to apply to their problems.

15:23:04 <ericstephan> Luc:  For now the primer will focus on the core concpets of the model, but extensions addressed later...

Luc Moreau: For now the primer will focus on the core concpets of the model, but extensions addressed later...

15:23:10 <tlebo> *someone

Timothy Lebo: *someone

15:23:31 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:23:34 <ericstephan> pgroth:  I'd like to discuss more, perhaps later will raise issue later

Paul Groth: I'd like to discuss more, perhaps later will raise issue later

15:23:55 <tlebo> retweet - someone reads the Primer a couple of times, then moves to regularly reference the Best Practices Document to get design solutions and apply them to their problems.

Timothy Lebo: retweet - someone reads the Primer a couple of times, then moves to regularly reference the Best Practices Document to get design solutions and apply them to their problems.

15:24:11 <pgroth> TOPIC: Renaming Deliverables

2. Renaming Deliverables

Summary: The group agrees to drop the term "formel model" to refer to the semantic web ontology. Terms are requested for a vote at the next telecon.

<pgroth> Summary: The group agrees to drop the term "formel model" to refer to the semantic web ontology. Terms are requested for a vote at the next telecon.
15:24:50 <pgroth> Proposed: Drop 'formel model' name for referring to the semantic web ontology

PROPOSED: Drop 'formel model' name for referring to the semantic web ontology

15:25:04 <ericstephan> pgroth:  comments on this?

Paul Groth: comments on this?

15:25:15 <satya> briefly discussed during ontology call

Satya Sahoo: briefly discussed during ontology call

15:25:29 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:25:29 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:25:30 <stain> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

15:25:30 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:25:30 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:25:32 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:25:32 <tlebo> +1    x10^5; I suggest renaming it to "PROV OWL Encoding"

Timothy Lebo: +1 x10^5; I suggest renaming it to "PROV OWL Encoding"

15:25:33 <ericstephan> +1

+1

15:25:40 <kai> +1

Kai Eckert: +1

15:25:40 <YolandaGil> +1

Yolanda Gil: +1

15:25:57 <pgroth> Resolved: Drop 'formel model' name for referring to the semantic web ontology

RESOLVED: Drop 'formel model' name for referring to the semantic web ontology

15:25:59 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:26:01 <ericstephan> pgroth: approved

Paul Groth: approved

15:26:17 <satya> PROV Ontology Model (also PROV ontology)

Satya Sahoo: PROV Ontology Model (also PROV ontology)

15:26:44 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:26:47 <khalidbelhajjame> Paolo isn't on the call, but he was suggesting PROV-Onto

Khalid Belhajjame: Paolo isn't on the call, but he was suggesting PROV-Onto

15:26:51 <ericstephan> pgroth:  Put suggested name on the mailing list vote next week

Paul Groth: Put suggested name on the mailing list vote next week

15:27:05 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:27:30 <pgroth> TOPIC: OWL Ontology

3. OWL Ontology

Summary: Satya reviewed the status of the OWL Ontology. Goal is to address current issues while preparing the document for FPWD. Tim Lebo went over his proposal for dealing with accounts using named graphs. He was encouraged to continue to bring it to the attention of the RDF working group

<pgroth> Summary: Satya reviewed the status of the OWL Ontology. Goal is to address current issues while preparing the document for FPWD. Tim Lebo went over his proposal for dealing with accounts using named graphs. He was encouraged to continue to bring it to the attention of the RDF working group
15:27:42 <tlebo> does anyone know which issue the formal renaming is?

Timothy Lebo: does anyone know which issue the formal renaming is?

15:27:52 <ericstephan> pgroth: satya review of ontology

Paul Groth: satya review of ontology

15:28:10 <stain> I don't think there is an official issue yet for the name

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I don't think there is an official issue yet for the name

15:28:13 <ericstephan> Satya:  requested reviews, feedback and comments yesterday

Satya Sahoo: requested reviews, feedback and comments yesterday

15:28:45 <ericstephan> Satya:  Covered all sections we planned to do, lots of editing ahead, ready for review from end to end.

Satya Sahoo: Covered all sections we planned to do, lots of editing ahead, ready for review from end to end.

15:29:17 <ericstephan> Satya:  Jcheney acting as user perpsective reviewer

Satya Sahoo: Jcheney acting as user perpsective reviewer

15:29:59 <tlebo> (what is the subject of the email proposing the Formal Model rename? It's buried :-)

Timothy Lebo: (what is the subject of the email proposing the Formal Model rename? It's buried :-)

15:30:19 <ericstephan> Satya:  need to formalize concepts in OWL framework and explain how it can be used by another ontology

Satya Sahoo: need to formalize concepts in OWL framework and explain how it can be used by another ontology

15:30:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:30:37 <ericstephan> Satya:  Describe the inferences given that its an OWL ontology

Satya Sahoo: Describe the inferences given that its an OWL ontology

15:30:46 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:30:55 <khalidbelhajjame> Tim, here is the subject "proposal: drop 'formal model' terminology"

Khalid Belhajjame: Tim, here is the subject "proposal: drop 'formal model' terminology"

15:31:15 <ericstephan> pgroth:  what do you think needs to be done before making the owl ontology a first public working draft

Paul Groth: what do you think needs to be done before making the owl ontology a first public working draft

15:31:36 <Luc> @tlebo, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Sep/0338.html

Luc Moreau: @tlebo, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Sep/0338.html

15:31:49 <ericstephan> satya:  currently making edits over the next week and doing the preliminary review as described earlier

Satya Sahoo: currently making edits over the next week and doing the preliminary review as described earlier

15:31:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:32:30 <ericstephan> pgroth:  a couple of issues making sure ontology is integrated with model...issue of ACCOUNT

Paul Groth: a couple of issues making sure ontology is integrated with model...issue of ACCOUNT

15:32:32 <tlebo> (created issues on http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/120)

Timothy Lebo: (created issues on http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/120)

15:32:45 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts

15:33:01 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

15:33:02 <ericstephan> tlebo:  discussion starts with named graphs...

Timothy Lebo: discussion starts with named graphs...

15:33:26 <ericstephan> tlebo:  named graphs are just by reference not value

Timothy Lebo: named graphs are just by reference not value

15:33:35 <zednik> q-

Stephan Zednik: q-

15:33:58 <ericstephan> tlebo: shows how named graphs are represented and model provenance accounts using named graphs

Timothy Lebo: shows how named graphs are represented and model provenance accounts using named graphs

15:34:26 <ericstephan> tlebo:  named metagraphs are pairs of graphs, not commonly practiced in the rdf community

Timothy Lebo: named metagraphs are pairs of graphs, not commonly practiced in the rdf community

15:35:01 <ericstephan> tlebo:  One graph naming another, draw distinction where these graphs are (metagraphs)

Timothy Lebo: One graph naming another, draw distinction where these graphs are (metagraphs)

15:35:39 <ericstephan> tlebo:  example uses: cache a graph off the web storing it in your local graph

Timothy Lebo: example uses: cache a graph off the web storing it in your local graph

15:36:28 <ericstephan> tlebo:  important distinction from traditional named graph communities, is that it is part of RDF as well as a SPARQL endpoint

Timothy Lebo: important distinction from traditional named graph communities, is that it is part of RDF as well as a SPARQL endpoint

15:37:04 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:05 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:37:12 <ericstephan> tlebo:  let me know if you have any comments or suggestions

Timothy Lebo: let me know if you have any comments or suggestions

15:37:34 <ericstephan> Luc:  It looks very clear, what is the implication of this in the ontology?

Luc Moreau: It looks very clear, what is the implication of this in the ontology?

15:37:52 <ericstephan> Tlebo:  Needs to be an assertion process execution

Timothy Lebo: Needs to be an assertion process execution

15:38:11 <ericstephan> Tlebo:  subclasses within classes of ontology

Timothy Lebo: subclasses within classes of ontology

15:38:59 <ericstephan> Luc:  in the abstract model have assertions made by two entities that are complements of each other.  How would it work in this context?  Is it only available at the RDF level?

Luc Moreau: in the abstract model have assertions made by two entities that are complements of each other. How would it work in this context? Is it only available at the RDF level?

15:39:56 <ericstephan> Luc:  Would there be any constructs any assertions belong to a given account?

Luc Moreau: Would there be any constructs any assertions belong to a given account?

15:40:24 <satya> That overlaps with notion of a container structure containing a set of assertions, hence belonging to the container

Satya Sahoo: That overlaps with notion of a container structure containing a set of assertions, hence belonging to the container

15:40:39 <khalidbelhajjame> I think the short answer to Luc's question is no.

Khalid Belhajjame: I think the short answer to Luc's question is no.

15:40:43 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:40:47 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:41:16 <satya> @Tim: Right - which is also supported by SPARQL

Satya Sahoo: @Tim: Right - which is also supported by SPARQL

15:41:17 <ericstephan> Tlebo:  there would be a way of specifying a named graph that was asserted.

Timothy Lebo: there would be a way of specifying a named graph that was asserted.

15:41:25 <khalidbelhajjame> Luc, you are right

Khalid Belhajjame: Luc, you are right

15:41:30 <ericstephan> Luc:  The account isn't at the owl level?

Luc Moreau: The account isn't at the owl level?

15:41:31 <pgroth> but they will be

Paul Groth: but they will be

15:41:41 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:41:50 <ericstephan> Tlebo:  writing up at the owl level

Timothy Lebo: writing up at the owl level

15:42:05 <ericstephan> sandro:  (hard to hear)

Sandro Hawke: (hard to hear)

15:42:43 <ericstephan> sandro:  is the notion of named graphs also assuming nothing is changed?

Sandro Hawke: is the notion of named graphs also assuming nothing is changed?

15:43:01 <ericstephan> tlebo:  quite the opposite changing all the time

Timothy Lebo: quite the opposite changing all the time

15:43:19 <ericstephan> tlebo:  account asserted at a particular time.

Timothy Lebo: account asserted at a particular time.

15:44:14 <ericstephan> tlebo:  these things can move, they don't have to

Timothy Lebo: these things can move, they don't have to

15:44:46 <ericstephan> tlebo:  you can serialize that named graph and make it an annotation for your account., you don't have to for that account assertion

Timothy Lebo: you can serialize that named graph and make it an annotation for your account., you don't have to for that account assertion

15:44:56 <ericstephan> sandro:  formal definition of named graph?

Sandro Hawke: formal definition of named graph?

15:45:13 <ericstephan> tlebo:  specification of a subset of an RDF named graph

Timothy Lebo: specification of a subset of an RDF named graph

15:45:41 <ericstephan> tlebo:  location is important here, it is a location, and the constant can change at any time

Timothy Lebo: location is important here, it is a location, and the constant can change at any time

15:46:02 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:46:03 <ericstephan> sandro: (can't hear)

Sandro Hawke: (can't hear)

15:46:12 <pgroth> ack Sandro

Paul Groth: ack Sandro

15:46:39 <ericstephan> pgroth:  working with Richard and working through this notion in the provenance rdf list

Paul Groth: working with Richard and working through this notion in the provenance rdf list

15:46:41 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:47:02 <ericstephan> Luc:  Tim, have you seen that in the data model accounts they can be hierarchical?

Luc Moreau: Tim, have you seen that in the data model accounts they can be hierarchical?

15:47:25 <satya> No, containment relation for nested accounts

Satya Sahoo: No, containment relation for nested accounts

15:47:28 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:47:28 <ericstephan> Tlebo:  I wasn't aware of the hierarchy, but will make sure nesting is accounted for

Timothy Lebo: I wasn't aware of the hierarchy, but will make sure nesting is accounted for

15:47:29 <satya> in RDF

Satya Sahoo: in RDF

15:47:35 <pgroth> ack LUc

Paul Groth: ack LUc

15:47:35 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:48:13 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:48:17 <ericstephan> satya:  Luc and Tim if you read account, talks about scoping the identities and semantic constraints.  They have global context cannot scope

Satya Sahoo: Luc and Tim if you read account, talks about scoping the identities and semantic constraints. They have global context cannot scope

15:48:19 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

15:48:35 <ericstephan> Tlebo:  Because we are using URI we control what we are talking about

Timothy Lebo: Because we are using URI we control what we are talking about

15:48:48 <ericstephan> Satya:  WIll point Tim to existing work...

Satya Sahoo: WIll point Tim to existing work...

15:49:46 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:49:51 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:49:54 <ericstephan> Luc:  we need to be careful when we say we can't scope identifiers.   What we are scoping is saying one thing about another resource...

Luc Moreau: we need to be careful when we say we can't scope identifiers. What we are scoping is saying one thing about another resource...

15:50:11 <ericstephan> Satya:  I'll defer this to email...

Satya Sahoo: I'll defer this to email...

15:51:06 <ericstephan> Luc:  We need to be careful when we refer to entity or resources.., please flag any unclear sentences

Luc Moreau: We need to be careful when we refer to entity or resources.., please flag any unclear sentences

15:51:07 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:51:13 <Luc> @tlebo, it's nice work indeed, thanks

Luc Moreau: @tlebo, it's nice work indeed, thanks

15:51:39 <stain> I'll poke Daniel

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I'll poke Daniel

15:52:34 <khalidbelhajjame> Also, we added a class Recipe

Khalid Belhajjame: Also, we added a class Recipe

15:52:52 <ericstephan> ericstephan: (sorry scribe was distracted Satya)

Eric Stephan: (sorry scribe was distracted Satya)

15:52:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:53:08 <pgroth> Topic: First Public Working Drafts

4. First Public Working Drafts

Summary: Asked for support in advertising FPWD. Also discussed the status of the questionnaire.

<pgroth> Summary: Asked for support in advertising FPWD. Also discussed the status of the questionnaire.
15:53:16 <Luc> @satya: there is an attribute location

Luc Moreau: @satya: there is an attribute location

15:53:38 <tlebo> satya: we need a property to associate Entity to Location, so we are gearing up to propose prov:hadLocation domain Entity range Location .

Satya Sahoo: we need a property to associate Entity to Location, so we are gearing up to propose prov:hadLocation domain Entity range Location . [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:54:20 <ericstephan> pgroth:  we need to get people interested in and get feedback..releasing ontology and model at the same time...whats the schedule?

Paul Groth: we need to get people interested in and get feedback..releasing ontology and model at the same time...whats the schedule?

15:55:27 <Luc> @satya: ... and the qualifiers are in the DM

Luc Moreau: @satya: ... and the qualifiers are in the DM

15:55:41 <ericstephan> pgroth;  volunteers for promoting first public working draft?

pgroth; volunteers for promoting first public working draft?

15:56:00 <satya> @Luc: as Tim said, we need two terms - a term for location and a property for linking to location (maybe that is covered by notion of qualifier)

Satya Sahoo: @Luc: as Tim said, we need two terms - a term for location and a property for linking to location (maybe that is covered by notion of qualifier)

15:56:05 <ericstephan> pgroth:  blog posts or illustrative blog posts

Paul Groth: blog posts or illustrative blog posts

15:56:06 <khalidbelhajjame> Yes, I ll be interested in doing so

Khalid Belhajjame: Yes, I ll be interested in doing so

15:56:38 <satya> @Luc: From Account current description: "Account expressions constitue a scope for identifiers" where identifiers I interpret to be URI

Satya Sahoo: @Luc: From Account current description: "Account expressions constitue a scope for identifiers" where identifiers I interpret to be URI

15:56:41 <ericstephan> Yes I agree Paul

Yes I agree Paul

15:56:49 <stain> I would be willing to promote as well

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I would be willing to promote as well

15:56:51 <Christine> I agree too

Christine Runnegar: I agree too

15:56:56 <ericstephan> pgroth: status of questionaire?

Paul Groth: status of questionaire?

15:57:01 <stain> excuse to wake up ye old blog..

Stian Soiland-Reyes: excuse to wake up ye old blog..

15:57:38 <ericstephan> zednik:  should have a large influx from responses...getting it out there havent assessed feedback.

Stephan Zednik: should have a large influx from responses...getting it out there havent assessed feedback.

15:57:47 <stain> we can just tweet it

Stian Soiland-Reyes: we can just tweet it

15:57:50 <jcheney> I'd be happy to send survey/FPWD announcment to research data management and DCC mailing lists.

James Cheney: I'd be happy to send survey/FPWD announcment to research data management and DCC mailing lists.

15:58:04 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:58:20 <Zakim> -??P55

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P55

15:58:21 <Luc> thanks all, bye

Luc Moreau: thanks all, bye

15:58:21 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

15:58:22 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

15:58:23 <Zakim> -??P65

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P65

15:58:23 <Zakim> -??P73

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P73

15:58:23 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

15:58:24 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

15:58:27 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:58:28 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

15:58:31 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

15:58:34 <Zakim> -kai

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai

15:58:35 <ericstephan> any follow up duties for scribe?

any follow up duties for scribe?

15:58:52 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

15:58:59 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

15:58:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-minutes.html pgroth

15:59:08 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

15:59:08 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

15:59:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Curt_Tilmes, Luc, stain, jcheney, +1.509.967.aabb, Satya_Sahoo, +1.315.330.aacc, +1.518.633.aadd, tlebo, kai?, Sandro,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Curt_Tilmes, Luc, stain, jcheney, +1.509.967.aabb, Satya_Sahoo, +1.315.330.aacc, +1.518.633.aadd, tlebo, kai?, Sandro,

15:59:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:59:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/06-prov-minutes.html trackbot

15:59:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

15:59:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

15:59:12 <Zakim> ... khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: ... khalidbelhajjame



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This revision (#1) generated 2011-10-10 19:17:06 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'Fixed irc errors and added summaries. Made a resolution explicit.'