Chatlog 2012-10-25

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14:00:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld
14:00:49 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:00:54 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone
14:00:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', cygri
14:00:56 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #gld
14:00:57 <PhilA> zakim, this is GLD
14:00:58 <Zakim> ok, PhilA; that matches T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM
14:01:01 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, MHausenblas, George, ??P7, +
14:01:05 <fadmaa> fadmaa has joined #gld
14:01:07 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
14:01:07 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
14:01:26 <PhilA> zakim, code?
14:01:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 45394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, PhilA
14:01:31 <George> George has joined #gld
14:01:31 <atemezin> Zakim, + is me
14:01:32 <Zakim> +atemezin; got it
14:01:33 <George> MacTed has changed the topic to: Gov't Linked Data WG -- -- current agenda
14:01:37 <Zakim> -??P7
14:01:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
14:01:50 <PhilA> zakim, IPcaller is me
14:01:50 <Zakim> +PhilA; got it
14:01:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:02:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:02:22 <james> zakim, who's here?
14:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, cygri, George, atemezin, PhilA, [IPcaller.a], DaveReynolds, [IPcaller]
14:02:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see George, fadmaa, DaveReynolds, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA, cygri, james, atemezin, martinAlvarez, jmynarz, agis, MacTed, bhyland, sandro, trackbot
14:02:30 <agis> zakim, IPcaller is me
14:02:30 <Zakim> +agis; got it
14:02:44 <james> zakim, who's on the call?
14:02:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, cygri, George, atemezin, PhilA, [IPcaller.a], DaveReynolds, agis
14:02:51 <james> zakim, IPcaller.a is me
14:02:52 <Zakim> +james; got it
14:02:55 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #gld
14:03:17 <Zakim> +??P22
14:04:04 <jmynarz> Zakim, P22 is me
14:04:04 <Zakim> sorry, jmynarz, I do not recognize a party named 'P22'
14:04:14 <jmynarz> Zakim, ??P22 is me
14:04:14 <Zakim> +jmynarz; got it
14:04:15 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:04:15 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb
14:04:25 <fadmaa> Zakim, +353 is me
14:04:25 <Zakim> +fadmaa; got it
14:05:11 <bhyland> great!
14:05:27 <Zakim> -fadmaa
14:05:39 <bhyland> Nothing like grabbing the new recruits as they walk in the door PhilA!
14:05:40 <DruidSmith> DruidSmith has joined #gld
14:05:57 <Zakim> +Mike_Pendleton
14:06:08 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #GLD
14:06:23 <Zakim> + +1.202.566.aacc
14:06:38 <DruidSmith> zakim, aacc is me
14:06:38 <Zakim> +DruidSmith; got it
14:06:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:07:11 <olyerickson> Zakim, [ipcaller] is me.
14:07:11 <Zakim> +olyerickson; got it
14:07:15 <bhyland> zakim, who is on the call?
14:07:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, cygri, George, atemezin, PhilA, james, DaveReynolds, agis, jmynarz, Sandro, Mike_Pendleton, DruidSmith, olyerickson
14:07:25 <olyerickson> zakim, mute me.
14:07:25 <Zakim> olyerickson should now be muted
14:07:27 <bhyland> zakim, davidwood is me
14:07:27 <Zakim> +bhyland; got it
14:07:36 <martinAlvarez> martinAlvarez has joined #gld
14:08:19 <cygri> fadmaa, feel free to join me upstairs if your phones are borken :-)
14:08:22 <bhyland> Scribe: mpendleton
14:08:24 <bhyland> chair: bhyland
14:08:36 <cygri> Agenda:
14:08:38 <PhilA> Mike_Pendleton++
14:08:43 <Zakim> + +3539149aadd
14:08:50 <fadmaa> Zakim, +353 is me
14:08:50 <Zakim> +fadmaa; got it
14:08:55 <bhyland> Please confirm last week's minutes:
14:09:13 <fadmaa> Zakim, mute me
14:09:13 <Zakim> fadmaa should now be muted
14:09:29 <bhyland> Please see
14:10:02 <Mike_Pendleton> Org Vocab reviewed last week; has gone to last call, thanks to Dave Reynolds
14:10:06 <PhilA> yay!
14:10:12 <Mike_Pendleton> Next up is DCAT
14:10:18 <DaveReynolds> +1 to minutes
14:10:28 <atemezin> +1 to last week minutes
14:10:29 <Mike_Pendleton> Minutes accepted
14:10:32 <martinAlvarez> martinAlvarez has left #gld
14:10:45 <bhyland> zakim, who is on the call?
14:10:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see bhyland, cygri, George, atemezin, PhilA, james, DaveReynolds, agis, jmynarz, Sandro, Mike_Pendleton, DruidSmith, olyerickson (muted), fadmaa (muted)
14:10:47 <fadmaa> Zakim, unmute me
14:10:49 <Zakim> fadmaa should no longer be muted
14:10:50 <PhilA> +1 to DCAT as primary topic today
14:11:24 <bhyland> Tracker for DCAT
14:11:49 <fadmaa>
14:11:59 <Mike_Pendleton> Fadi on DCAT for runthrough on issues list
14:12:06 <PhilA> Editor's draft of DCAT is at
14:12:34 <fadmaa> using literal formatted as xsd;language
14:12:56 <martinAlvarez> martinAlvarez has joined #gld
14:13:26 <olyerickson> Q+
14:13:28 <cygri> PROPOSAL: recommended values of dcterms:language for DCAT are literals like "en"^^xsd:language
14:13:32 <olyerickson> zakim, unmute me.
14:13:32 <Zakim> olyerickson should no longer be muted
14:13:42 <Zakim> +??P36
14:13:50 <bhyland> Fadi proposed the following:
14:13:51 <martinAlvarez> zakim, ??p36 is me
14:13:51 <Zakim> +martinAlvarez; got it
14:13:59 <martinAlvarez> zakim, mute me
14:13:59 <Zakim> martinAlvarez should now be muted
14:14:03 <olyerickson> "literal" was one of the choices
14:14:05 <bhyland> Fadi suggests the following:
14:14:05 <bhyland> 
14:14:05 <bhyland> 1) drop dcat:dataQuality and dcat:granularity
14:14:05 <bhyland> 2) format of distribution
14:14:05 <bhyland> 3) size of distribution
14:14:05 <bhyland> 4) Distribution subclasses
14:14:05 <bhyland> 5) range of dc:language
14:14:11 <olyerickson> Currently it says to use
14:14:23 <fadmaa> +1
14:14:29 <bhyland> q?
14:14:32 <GofranShu> GofranShu has joined #GLD
14:14:35 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
14:15:25 <fadmaa> zakim, GofranShu is with me
14:15:25 <Zakim> +GofranShu; got it
14:15:42 <Mike_Pendleton> John Erikson: clarify - it is inconsistent with Dublin Core; John's recommendation be that it is easy for implementers; use a typed literal as the choice
14:15:45 <bhyland> olyerickson: The issue is inconsistency between how Dublin Core specifies range of dcterms.
14:16:04 <PhilA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The we recommend that the value of dcterms:language be given as a typed literal, e.g. en^^xsd:lang
14:16:40 <PhilA> q+
14:16:45 <Mike_Pendleton> Accepted
14:16:57 <olyerickson> zakim, mute me.
14:16:57 <Zakim> olyerickson should now be muted
14:17:37 <PhilA> ack me
14:17:50 <Mike_Pendleton> Question from Phil: Are we knowingly making an inconsistency?
14:18:18 <bhyland> … This is incorrect according to the DC spec which gives the range as - i.e. a resource.
14:19:45 <bhyland> DaveR: Has no problem with what is proposed but isn't sure that it is consistent with the spirit of what DC language as a resource.
14:19:49 <atemezin>
14:20:26 <james> see
14:20:38 <jmynarz> rapper -i rdfxml -o turtle > dcterms.ttl
14:21:04 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: We can't close issue 26.  We need to get it right.
14:21:44 <bhyland> ACTION: PhilA to get clarification from Maxx Deckers on what DC meant in what they specified.
14:21:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Get clarification from Maxx Deckers on what DC meant in what they specified. [on Phil Archer - due 2012-11-01].
14:21:48 <Mike_Pendleton> Phil will take an action item to resolve this with Max from the Dublin Core
14:22:23 <jmynarz> This is how dcterms:language is used in practice:
14:22:50 <DaveReynolds> Agree with Richard, not inconsistent with letter of spec but worth checking with expert about spirit of DC spec
14:22:54 <james> +1
14:23:00 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
14:23:08 <fadmaa> remove  dcat:dataQauality, dcat:granularity
14:23:18 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Drop dcat:dataQuality and dcat:granularity
14:23:20 <bhyland> TOPIC: DCAT (continued)
14:23:21 <bhyland> 1) drop dcat:dataQuality and dcat:granularity
14:23:43 <olyerickson> + to nuking data quality
14:23:45 <atemezin> +1 to drop
14:23:49 <fadmaa> +1
14:24:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:24:24 <Mike_Pendleton> Phil: The issue is not going away, but we can close it here
14:24:34 <Yigal> zakim, IPcaller is me
14:24:34 <Zakim> +Yigal; got it
14:24:45 <Mike_Pendleton> Phil: We need this, but this is not the place for it
14:24:48 <olyerickson> +0 to granularity (it's not wrong)
14:24:49 <cygri> RESOLUTION: Drop dcat:dataQuality and dcat:granularity
14:24:50 <bhyland> To close Issue-10, We agreed to remove but the issue doesn't go away.  This isn't the place for it.
14:25:04 <olyerickson> +1 to resolution
14:25:14 <bhyland> 2) format of distribution
14:25:54 <olyerickson> "Proposal: define dcat:mediaType as a sub-property of dc:format. Publishers should use dcat:mediaType to provide a Media Type as defined by IANA. if this is not available, then publishers may use dc:format"
14:26:15 <bhyland> +1
14:26:17 <PhilA> +1
14:26:18 <olyerickson> +1
14:26:20 <DaveReynolds> +1
14:26:22 <George> +1
14:26:22 <martinAlvarez> +1
14:26:23 <Mike_Pendleton> Thanks John!
14:26:23 <cygri> +1
14:26:24 <fadmaa> +1
14:26:35 <bhyland> Next, 3) size of distribution
14:26:44 <Mike_Pendleton> Issue 12 proposal accepted
14:27:00 <cygri> RESOLUTION: define dcat:mediaType as a sub-property of dc:format. Publishers should use dcat:mediaType to provide a Media Type as defined by IANA. if this is not available, then publishers may use dc:format
14:27:29 <PhilA> q+
14:27:43 <fadmaa> :dist dcat:size [dcat:bytes 1024; rdfs:label 1k]
14:27:43 <PhilA> q-
14:29:40 <olyerickson> cygri's proposal on dist. size: "...Replace dcat:size and dcat:bytes with a single property dcat:byteSize, range is xsd: decimal, stating that the value can be approximate..."
14:30:05 <bhyland> q?
14:31:37 <olyerickson> RE  dcat:byteSize I very much like this, esp. that the size is "approximate." There can be platform-specific ways to document exact size, digital signatures, etc which we won;t get into
14:31:48 <olyerickson> Please re-state the resolution
14:32:13 <cygri> RESOLUTION: define dcat:mediaType as a sub-property of dc:format (in the old DC namespace). Publishers should use dcat:mediaType to provide a Media Type as defined by IANA. if this is not available, then publishers may use dc:format
14:32:29 <Mike_Pendleton> PROPOSAL: replace properties dcat:size and dcat:bytes with one property dcat:byteSize
14:32:32 <bhyland>
14:33:13 <bhyland> … byteSize can be approximate
14:33:25 <olyerickson> value is "guidance"
14:33:36 <bhyland> +1
14:33:39 <cygri> for example: </dataset123/distribution1> dcat:byteSize 547000.
14:33:46 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: point is that you verify you have the right file
14:33:49 <atemezin> +1
14:33:52 <cygri> +1
14:33:52 <martinAlvarez> +1 (easier to use)
14:34:16 <fadmaa> +1+1
14:34:19 <Mike_Pendleton> RESOLUTION: replace properties dcat:size and dcat:bytes with one property dcat:byteSize
14:34:30 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has left #gld
14:35:19 <fadmaa>
14:35:29 <bhyland> Two issues re: distribution subclasses, see Distribution subclasses
14:35:41 <fadmaa>
14:35:45 <fadmaa>
14:36:03 <Mike_Pendleton> Fadi has one more; related to issues 8 and 9
14:36:27 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #gld
14:36:50 <Mike_Pendleton> Fadi discussed DCAT examples
14:36:51 <atemezin> s/Fadi/fadmaa
14:37:08 <bhyland> Some examples:
14:37:08 <bhyland> -> Direct: accessURL points to a WebService, RSS, XLS, or XML, which
14:37:08 <bhyland> offers the distribution directly.
14:37:08 <bhyland> -> Indirect: accessURL points to a REST WebService or API
14:37:08 <bhyland> documentation (how to use it, parameters, etc) | an XML zipped
14:37:22 <fadmaa>
14:37:53 <Mike_Pendleton> bernadette: This goes to issues around ADMS if I understand correctly; Phil, is this DCAT distrubution related to ADMS?
14:37:54 <olyerickson> fadmaa's proposal on distribution sub-typing makes sense to me
14:38:26 <bhyland> 1++ Fadi
14:39:07 <bhyland> Discussed Does dcat:Distribution address one of the use cases of ADMS, i.e., 4 x zipped PDF files ...
14:39:37 <bhyland> Fadi: I think of DCAT describing raw data, not PDF
14:39:43 <cygri> q+
14:40:05 <PhilA> ack cygri
14:40:37 <bhyland> Cygri: this is all pretty complicated, we all 'know' what a data catalog is, but we really aren't defining it explicitely.
14:40:52 <bhyland> … thus hard to make hard & fast rules about what is "in" vs "out" of a data catalog
14:41:07 <cygri>
14:41:12 <bhyland> … everyone has different views of what can & cannot go in a data catalog using DCAT
14:41:53 <bhyland> Per the ED, "DCAT is an RDF vocabulary designed to facilitate interoperability between data catalogs published on the Web. This document defines the schema and provides examples for its use.
14:41:54 <bhyland> 
14:42:23 <atemezin> @cygri: could we *exclude* those  type of *things (eg PDF) in  the spec ?
14:42:26 <bhyland> … whether a zipped file can be described using DCAT, it isn't currently addressed by DCAT sufficiently
14:43:18 <bhyland> Sounds to me like we need to review DCAT & ADMS in context of common use cases
14:44:14 <bhyland> cygri: I have yet so see handling of archive files sufficiently handled by gov data catalog sites … it is a case that hasn't been fully addressed.
14:44:49 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: we need a dedicated session on goes to the heart of ADMS too.
14:45:58 <bhyland> cygri: Invoked Rufus Pollock in relation to use of DCAT for CKAN. There are use cases where there is a desire to describe associated documentation of a given dataset, or scripts that were used to create a dataset, or representative sample data from a dataset that isn't a data set per se.
14:46:25 <bhyland> … DCAT as designed currently doesn't describe supplementary documentation.  We need to figure out how to do this.
14:46:27 <Mike_Pendleton> cygri: core issue (also addressed by Rufus P.)  CKAN use cases also describe other things (e.g., scripts used to create the dataset).  DCAT doesn't discuss decribing these things.
14:46:46 <fadmaa> is an example that uses dc:reference for an example which is too generic
14:46:47 <PhilA> Is DCAT for 3* + and ADMS for 1 and 2 star?
14:46:52 <bhyland> … This gets to the core of ADMS and DCAT, issues around interoperability of downloadable resources.
14:47:22 <Mike_Pendleton> cygri: if we had the answers to this; things would fall into place
14:47:40 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: This makes the point that we need a separate session on this.
14:47:53 <fadmaa> +1 to a dedicated session
14:48:07 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette:  This is at the core of 3, 4, and 5 star data we are trying to publish
14:48:32 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette to Fadi: any other issues that need to be addressed to move DCAT forward?
14:48:59 <PhilA> q+
14:49:10 <bhyland> Issues 8,9 and 43 all related to bigger distribution topic that we want to follow up with in a focused DCAT WG call.
14:49:12 <bhyland> q?
14:49:58 <bhyland> PhilA: We can move FPWD to LC even with a handful of open issues.
14:50:00 <Mike_Pendleton> Phil: Some of these issues may be left open and we can still publish
14:50:02 <bhyland> Propose Move DCAT to LC
14:50:45 <Mike_Pendleton> Phil: you can get a new version out w/o closed issues; but we can't move to LC with open issues
14:50:46 <bhyland> s/can/cannot
14:51:01 <Mike_Pendleton> LC is last call
14:51:34 <Mike_Pendleton> Phil: would like a new version published with open issues
14:52:01 <cygri> q+
14:52:04 <PhilA> q-
14:52:06 <Mike_Pendleton> fadmaa: can do this Monday
14:52:07 <bhyland> ACTION: Fadi to update DCAT FPWD with revisions from this past 2 weeks discussion
14:52:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Update DCAT FPWD with revisions from this past 2 weeks discussion [on Fadi Maali - due 2012-11-01].
14:53:27 <Mike_Pendleton> bernadette: Next
14:54:16 <bhyland> cygri: Recommends that distribution issues be solved before next PWD.
14:54:19 <PhilA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: That we aim to resolve to publish a new version of DCAT in 2 weeks' time. Whether that is LC or not remains open
14:54:34 <atemezin> +1 to solve the distribution issue before the next working draft
14:55:06 <cygri> +0.5
14:55:39 <bhyland> Fadi & Cygri agreed to talk over the next two weeks and edit the DCAT FPWD so we can publish another working draft within 3 weeks.
14:55:42 <bhyland> +1
14:56:05 <atemezin> +1
14:56:50 <olyerickson> +1...I wasn't opposed to the previous proposal, and I think we will either solve this quickly or we need to rethinking it
14:56:58 <olyerickson> s/rethinking/rethink/
14:57:32 <bhyland> Topic: Linked Data Glossary, W3 Working Note or wiki?
14:57:41 <Mike_Pendleton> RESOLUTION: resolve to publish a new version of DCAT in 2 weeks' time; another draft in the next 2-3 weeks
14:57:41 <fadmaa> Zakim, mute me
14:57:44 <Zakim> fadmaa should now be muted
14:58:11 <bhyland> Last week mhausenblas mentioned glossary going here
14:58:32 <sandro> +1 Working Group NOTE
14:58:43 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette requesting opinion on glossary as working note or wiki
14:58:46 <sandro> (not strong opinion)
14:58:52 <bhyland> Question - Should it be a Working Note or wiki
14:59:21 <DaveReynolds> No strong opinion. Weak preference for Wiki to simplify future update.
14:59:26 <bhyland> cygri: suggested that language will evolve with current usage
14:59:37 <sandro> q+
14:59:57 <Mike_Pendleton> Richard:  There will be updates after the WG terminates; language will evolve;
15:00:42 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: I've not gotten input since June
15:01:09 <bhyland> q?
15:01:14 <cygri> ack me
15:01:14 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: There will always be new things, I propose the working note
15:01:15 <bhyland> ack cygri
15:01:29 <PhilA> ack sandro
15:01:39 <Mike_Pendleton> Sandro: there is not rule about who owns a note once published
15:02:14 <bhyland> Sandro: Procedurally, there is no reason another WG or even say eGov IG couldn't take on editing the Note.
15:02:18 <bhyland> q?
15:02:19 <Mike_Pendleton> Sandro: Semantic Web Interest Group could take over the Note (not WG Note)
15:02:39 <PhilA> I prefer a Note personally
15:02:46 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: Objections to a Note?
15:02:51 <bhyland> No objection to the Linked Data Glossary being published as a Note.
15:02:52 <DaveReynolds> No objection, still mild preference for wiki.
15:03:10 <atemezin> No objection
15:03:56 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: Thanks for your time; send projects announcements around publishing LOD by today for tomorrow; Bernadette leaves for France Monday.
15:04:03 <Mike_Pendleton> Adjourned
15:04:12 <olyerickson> olyerickson has left #gld
15:04:20 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has left #gld
15:04:20 <martinAlvarez> thanks, bye
15:04:22 <Zakim> -bhyland
15:04:22 <Mike_Pendleton> Not meeting next week; next meeting Nov 8.
15:04:23 <Zakim> -atemezin
15:04:23 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:04:24 <Zakim> -agis
15:04:24 <Zakim> -jmynarz
15:04:25 <Zakim> -olyerickson
15:04:26 <Zakim> -cygri
15:04:28 <Zakim> -DruidSmith
15:04:28 <Zakim> -PhilA
15:04:28 <Zakim> -fadmaa
15:04:28 <Zakim> -Yigal
15:04:28 <Zakim> -George
15:04:29 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
15:04:29 <Zakim> -martinAlvarez
15:04:31 <bhyland> thanks all & safe travels.
15:04:32 <Yigal> Yigal has left #gld
15:04:35 <Zakim> -james
15:04:57 <Zakim> -Mike_Pendleton
15:04:58 <Zakim> T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM has ended
15:04:58 <Zakim> Attendees were George, cygri, atemezin, PhilA, DaveReynolds, agis, james, jmynarz, Sandro, +3539149aabb, fadmaa, Mike_Pendleton, +1.202.566.aacc, DruidSmith, olyerickson,
15:04:58 <Zakim> ... bhyland, +3539149aadd, martinAlvarez, GofranShu, Yigal
15:05:13 <bhyland> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:05:18 <PhilA> PhilA has left #gld
15:05:20 <bhyland> RRSAgent, generate minutes
15:05:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate bhyland
15:05:24 <agis> agis has left #gld
15:08:18 <bhyland> Minutes published here