Chatlog 2012-09-13

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14:00:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld
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14:00:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:00:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #gld
14:00:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GLD
14:00:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM already started
14:00:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Government Linked Data Working Group Teleconference
14:00:06 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2012
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14:03:00 <George> zakim who is here?
14:03:21 <George> zakim, who is here?
14:03:26 <Zakim> +??P29
14:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, George_Thomas, +1.757.604.aaaa, +3539149aabb, ??P29
14:03:36 <olyerickson> Zakim, ??P29 is me.
14:03:43 <DeirdreLee> zakim, +3539149aabb is me
14:03:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see bhyland, GeraldSteeman, mhausenblas, olyerickson, Zakim, RRSAgent, DeirdreLee, George, MacTed, danbri_, cygri, trackbot, sandro
14:03:56 <Zakim> +olyerickson; got it
14:03:59 <GeraldSteeman> zakim, aaaa is me.
14:04:06 <Zakim> +DeirdreLee; got it
14:04:12 <olyerickson> Zaim, who is on the phone?
14:04:17 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman; got it
14:04:29 <George> zakim, who is here?
14:04:31 <Zakim> +bhyland
14:04:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, George_Thomas, GeraldSteeman, DeirdreLee, olyerickson, bhyland
14:05:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see bhyland, GeraldSteeman, mhausenblas, olyerickson, Zakim, RRSAgent, DeirdreLee, George, MacTed, danbri_, cygri, trackbot, sandro
14:05:20 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has joined #gld
14:05:53 <olyerickson> I'll scribe
14:05:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:06:06 <PhilA2> zakim, IPCaller is me
14:06:06 <Zakim> +PhilA2; got it
14:06:10 <olyerickson> Scribe: olyerickson
14:06:22 <bhyland> Agenda:
14:06:30 <olyerickson> Topic: Minutes
14:06:35 <bhyland> Minutes for last week:
14:06:38 <bhyland> +1
14:07:00 <PhilA2> Propose accept minutes of last week
14:07:19 <olyerickson> bhyland: Note resolution was added last week
14:07:31 <olyerickson> PhilA2: confirms resolution (near end)
14:07:41 <olyerickson> * note "+1s" at end
14:08:02 <olyerickson> PhilA2 to edit to note resolution
14:08:32 <olyerickson> bhyland: add to agenda discussion of "Business Core Vocabulary"
14:08:47 <olyerickson> Topic: Agenda items for this call
14:08:56 <olyerickson> "Business Core Vocabulary" (PhilA2 & bhyland request)
14:09:04 <olyerickson> Deliverable adjustments (George)
14:09:19 <bhyland> Agenda+ Feedback on ADMS Business Vocabulary feedback (has to do with suggestions to move to legal-entity)
14:09:34 <olyerickson> George: Would like to talk vocab but are thin on attendance (edits)
14:09:53 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Request to continue conformance discussion
14:11:01 <olyerickson> Topic: Conformance Issue (PhilA2)
14:11:09 <olyerickson> Recall discussion with Rufus
14:11:18 <olyerickson> Two key aspects:
14:11:19 <bhyland> Agenda+ Modifications to Main GLD wiki page under "Deliverables" (has to do with geography & spatial information)
14:11:34 <PhilA2> Take a look at
14:11:49 <olyerickson> * Double-check that what we agreed with Rufus is correct; see above editor's draft
14:12:11 <olyerickson> * The point: includes text that captures what we discussed w/ Rufus
14:12:20 <olyerickson> "What does it mean to conform to a vocab"
14:12:35 <olyerickson> * In the "open world" paradigm, very hard to think about 'conformance'
14:12:49 <olyerickson> * If everything is optional, how to measure conformance
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14:13:09 <olyerickson> * Conformance isn't about using everything
14:13:12 <bhyland> PhilA reviewed language: "Conformance to this vocabulary means using its classes, properties and relationships to describe businesses. It does not necessarily mean using every term and there are no terms that are mandatory. However, the inclusion of a term signals that the Working Group has found it to be useful. Applications may specify a minimum set of terms that publishers must use if their data is to be processed, and may also specify controlled vocabularies
14:13:51 <olyerickson> Applications MAY specify req'd usage. Vocab itself doesn't specify requirements for compliant usage
14:14:14 <olyerickson> * WG GLD may e.g. recognize cardinality constraints often important
14:14:57 <olyerickson> bhyland: What specifically was changed? What's different? 
14:15:02 <sandro> +1 to this approach, and it's what we talked about
14:15:05 <George>
14:15:13 <George> Conformance to this vocabulary means using its classes, properties and relationships to describe businesses. It does not necessarily mean using every term and there are no terms that are mandatory. However, the inclusion of a term signals that the Working Group has found it to be useful. Applications may specify a minimum set of terms that publishers must use if their data is to be processed, and may also specify controlled vocabularies as acceptable values for p
14:15:15 <boris> boris has joined #gld
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14:15:27 <olyerickson> PhilA2: The (conformance) text is new; added to (he thinks) Editors' Draft
14:16:00 <olyerickson> bhyland: Some of the bullets are boilerplate
14:16:06 <PhilA2> Current ed draft oif DCAT
14:16:09 <Zakim> +??P37
14:16:22 <Yigal> zakim, ??p37 is me
14:16:22 <Zakim> +Yigal; got it
14:16:45 <olyerickson> PhilA2; Current Editors' Draft of DCAT doesn't have more "robust" language. Neither does Data Cube, neither does Org
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14:16:56 <olyerickson> (last bit was bhyland)
14:17:24 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: Rufus did not like some of the language; refer to public comments
14:17:48 <olyerickson> * bhyland: PhilA2's draft is paragraph, not bullets (problem)
14:18:02 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Wording "wishy-washy"
14:18:19 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Say what you mean, directly...
14:18:31 <Zakim> + +1.440.389.aacc
14:18:36 <HadleyBeeman> zakim, aacc is me
14:18:36 <Zakim> +HadleyBeeman; got it
14:18:44 <olyerickson> George: Well, GLD draft does say conformance will be "application specific"
14:18:57 <Zakim> + +34.60.062.aadd
14:19:23 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Would rather be definite on minimum set
14:20:27 <olyerickson> George; PhilA2 has captured what would make Rufus happy
14:20:40 <boris> zakim, aadd is me
14:20:40 <Zakim> +boris; got it
14:20:48 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Needs bullets, better for International readers
14:20:50 <boris> zakim, mute me
14:20:50 <Zakim> boris should now be muted
14:21:11 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Needs more direct language, current is wishy-washy
14:21:44 <olyerickson> * bhyland: better: "applications must satisfy minimum set of terms"
14:22:08 <bhyland> We are talking about
14:22:15 <HadleyBeeman> thanks, bhyland.
14:22:33 <olyerickson> PhilA2: There is a difference between conforming to vocab vs conforming to application (such as meeting LOD Cloud requirements)
14:22:33 <bhyland> * has added some language beyond the boilerplate Conformance section and we're discussing it.
14:23:08 <PhilA2> olyerickson: It's not the vocab designers' brief to design the specify the requirements for getting into the application
14:23:16 <bhyland> q+
14:23:58 <olyerickson> * George: Notion of standard is diluted if anyone can use it in any way they see fit. But that's the deal
14:24:24 <olyerickson> * sandro: We don't know what the applications will be/need. So hard to talk about it
14:24:27 <PhilA2> * Example: CKAN is an application that will define mandatory fields
14:24:36 <PhilA2> * Example: EU's Joinup platform will do this for ADMS
14:24:40 <bhyland> +1
14:24:49 <bhyland> to what you just said PhilA2
14:25:17 <olyerickson> sandro: Could do: create a "matrix" illustrating what terms are often consumed, what terms are rarely used. 
14:25:56 <olyerickson> sandro: If you don't know what the specific usage is, you don't know what to include/not include
14:26:12 <olyerickson> * try really hard to include everything you have
14:26:33 <Zakim> -boris
14:26:34 <olyerickson> bhyland: GLD is in the best practices business
14:26:38 <PhilA2> q+
14:26:44 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
14:26:49 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
14:26:49 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
14:26:56 <George> q?
14:27:02 <olyerickson> sandro: WG's such as GLD can provide strong/helpful advice
14:27:10 <olyerickson> * to application developers
14:27:32 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Happy to include, "Include as much data as you can"
14:27:40 <olyerickson> * Specific applications in mind
14:27:52 <sandro> sandro: adivce people to publish using all the properties you can, and consume in a way that works even with lots of fields missing.
14:28:05 <olyerickson> ** CKAN: "If you want your data to appear on any CKAN portal, you must include these terms"
14:28:22 <olyerickson> ** EC "JoinUp" Platform: Same is true
14:28:46 <olyerickson> ** Example: if description less than five terms, submission rejected
14:29:19 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: App/Service designers entitled; not part of vocab designers job
14:29:23 <HadleyBeeman> :)
14:29:27 <cygri> :-)
14:29:49 <DeirdreLee> q?
14:29:53 <DeirdreLee> q+
14:29:55 <cygri> q+
14:29:55 <PhilA2> q-
14:30:11 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: "This specification does not specify what you must do"
14:30:12 <PhilA2> ack me
14:30:21 <HadleyBeeman> Isn't the point of establishing standards that we find the points of commonality?  Each app/implementation may have additional requirements, no?
14:31:01 <George> ack bhyland 
14:31:28 <olyerickson> * bhyland: PhilA2, please make it bulleted to make it more accessible; also, make conditionals more consistent/parsable
14:31:32 <PhilA2> action: Phil to tidy up the conformance language, preferably with bullet points
14:31:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-76 - Tidy up the conformance language, preferably with bullet points [on Phil Archer - due 2012-09-20].
14:31:53 <olyerickson> * DeirdreLee: Agrees with what has been discussed
14:32:11 <bhyland> @PhilA2, please consider using same *format* as
14:32:27 <olyerickson> ** Consider including word-of-warning, to indicate possible application requirements
14:32:37 <George> ack DeirdreLee 
14:32:40 <olyerickson> * Is conformance section required?
14:32:49 <George> ack cygri 
14:32:55 <olyerickson> * cygri: Yes. But there are plenty that don't
14:33:11 <olyerickson> * sandro: Makes perfect sense, from a "meaning" standpoinbt
14:33:26 <olyerickson> ** There is some inherent notion of conformance
14:33:34 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: There is another issue
14:33:42 <olyerickson> ** Come back to it
14:33:49 <bhyland> For example, People and Data Cube both need to get a Conformance section...
14:33:50 <olyerickson> * cygri: A couple points
14:34:08 <olyerickson> ** Dublin Core: Has notion of "Application Profile." 
14:34:20 <olyerickson> ** e.g. "using DC in this particular way"
14:34:48 <olyerickson> ** DC doesn't dictate, but particular applications do
14:35:09 <olyerickson> ** Specialization of properties, etc
14:35:34 <PhilA2> An example DC Application Profile
14:35:39 <olyerickson> ** CKAN etal trying to define *Protocols* around vocabularies
14:36:06 <olyerickson> ** To actually exchange data based on these vocabs
14:36:20 <olyerickson> ** What's required, what's optional
14:36:59 <olyerickson> ** When we talk about conformance, need to discuss what kinds of things can conform
14:37:32 <olyerickson> ** In the case of DCAT, kinds of "things" may be specifications, data APIs, etc
14:37:51 <sandro> q?
14:37:59 <olyerickson> ** ie technical specifications need to use the vocab consistent with the definitions
14:38:03 <sandro> q+
14:38:20 <George> eg. federation/harvesting based on vocab + app-specific profile + protocol...
14:38:37 <olyerickson> ** We are defining something that would be used by others to define standards/interfaces
14:39:04 <olyerickson> sandro: Curious what cygri thinks about "lightweight" usage
14:39:06 <George> q?
14:39:32 <PhilA2> ack sandro
14:39:36 <olyerickson> * cygri: There are plenty of specs "out there" that consist only of terminology
14:40:01 <olyerickson> ** Could we refer to e.g. ISO experience on 'conformance'
14:40:18 <olyerickson> ** possible to "certify," how do they do that? 
14:40:21 <George> certification is a key gov idea
14:40:41 <olyerickson> q+
14:40:57 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Culturally closer to DC world
14:41:31 <olyerickson> * conformance means conforming to the semantics as well
14:41:58 <sandro> q+ to say it's not necessarily common sense
14:42:09 <George> ack olyerickson 
14:42:18 <sandro> q-
14:42:22 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Circling back to Richard's point. We can envision data APIs that say "uses DCAT etc."
14:42:45 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Then conject that a developer will take that literally and build something based on the spec
14:43:26 <PhilA2> ... that's why I think it's important to flag in the spec that this is the super set, this is what could be included. This is not a required list. Please refer to the application for guidance
14:43:32 <PhilA2> PhilA2: +1 to olyerickson
14:44:55 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Adopters might be very lightweight on what they use. They should be clear. People with queryable interfaces need to be clear on what is required and optional 
14:45:26 <olyerickson> bhyland: Does this clarify? Is this enough? 
14:45:41 <olyerickson> PhilA2: yes...thinks he knows what he'll say
14:46:09 <olyerickson> Topic: Otherwise very Loosely Derived Agenda Items
14:46:34 <olyerickson> * George: since we have cygri, recap DCAT resolution? 
14:46:56 <olyerickson> ** George: Does anyone recall DCAT resolution? 
14:47:03 <bhyland> @George - how about remaining Business Core vocab issues raised by email (this week) to allow Phil to complete actions assigned last week ...
14:47:32 <olyerickson> * PhilA2 and George searching for applicable minutes
14:47:33 <PhilA2> This one
14:48:38 <olyerickson> * PhilA2 Subclasses, classes, resources, distributions, oh my!
14:48:54 <olyerickson> Topic: Business Core Vocab
14:49:05 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman
14:49:16 <olyerickson> * bhyland: PhilA2 wants to get (this) up in W3C namespace
14:49:49 <PhilA2> Currently we have
14:50:17 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Placeholder page that says 'It's coming..."
14:50:35 <olyerickson> * Currently being used by OpenCorporates, swedish govt etc
14:50:49 <olyerickson> * Following comments, an updated version of ADMS coming
14:50:52 <bhyland> So the current Business Core Vocab in ED form, is here
14:51:31 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to clearer
14:51:35 <olyerickson> PhilA2: "legal" because of "legal entity" 
14:51:38 <sandro> +1 legal-entity
14:52:03 <sandro> yeah -- maybe merge this and make it org 2.0 ?
14:52:11 <olyerickson> bhyland: PhilA2 is mixing things
14:52:28 <olyerickson> * Naming should be closer to what it is
14:52:53 <olyerickson> * Term "legal" is too broad (so is "legal entity" but that's the deal)
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14:53:28 <olyerickson> sandro: Example: W3C (may or may not be "legal entity" 
14:53:32 <sandro> W3C most certainly does exist as an organization, but not a legal-entity.
14:54:20 <olyerickson> bhyland: Whole issue of OpenCorporates utilization is separate issue
14:54:37 <PhilA2> nothing to apologise for!
14:54:53 <HadleyBeeman> I've been concerned about court data as well, bhyland
14:55:24 <olyerickson> PhilA2: This kind of issue is part of the "learning curve"
14:55:26 <bhyland> @Hadley, right, court data, licenses, all are "legal" mega categories.
14:55:38 <olyerickson> * changing the namespace is a legitimate part of that learning curve
14:55:59 <olyerickson> bhyland: So, what are next steps? Feedback? 
14:56:08 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Two separate documents
14:56:13 <olyerickson> * Spec will be...
14:56:15 <PhilA2> specification /TR/vocab-legal-entity
14:56:24 <olyerickson> * Namespace will be...
14:56:26 <bhyland> +1, I'm OK with that
14:56:28 <PhilA2> namespace logically is therefore /ns/legal-entity
14:56:59 <olyerickson> PhilA2: "horse in front of the cart..."
14:57:08 <bhyland> PhilA2: First issue (TR one) is trivial to fix.  The second one, (ns/) is harder to change ...
14:58:18 <olyerickson> bhyland: If you develop a system based on a proto vocab's the risk you take
14:58:47 <olyerickson> +1 to early adopter usage being a sign of goodness
14:58:47 <sandro> +1 bhyland -- we can't be held to be compatible with decisions we haven't made
14:59:08 <olyerickson> +1 to sandro to bhyland
14:59:20 <olyerickson> PhilA2: In that case...
14:59:21 <bhyland> … +1 to sandro & John ;-)
14:59:49 <olyerickson> * the group is happy for vocab to be know as the legal entity vocabulary
14:59:51 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to the name changes.  Sounds good to me.
14:59:52 <George> +1
15:00:02 <olyerickson> * namespace should reflect both of those words
15:00:04 <bhyland> Resolved: The vocabulary known as Business Core Vocabulary is now being changed to the "Legal Entity Vocabulary"
15:00:07 <bhyland> +1
15:00:19 <olyerickson> George: All right, then!
15:00:27 <HadleyBeeman> q+
15:00:38 <HadleyBeeman> hang on… finding mute
15:00:41 <bhyland> Resolved: The namespace previously known as /ns/legal shall be moved to /ns/legal-entity
15:00:44 <bhyland> +1
15:01:04 <PhilA2> PhilA2: I'd like to record my talks to the chairs for giving these issues time today
15:01:06 <olyerickson> HadleyBeeman: very hard to hear comments on Open data Initiative
15:01:22 <olyerickson> * Scribe literally can't hear HadleyBeeman
15:01:24 <PhilA2> HadleyBeeman: Alluncing Gavin Sparks as CEO and Jeni Tennison as CTO of the Open data Institute
15:01:34 <PhilA2> s/Alluncing/Announcing/
15:01:54 <PhilA2> HadleyBeeman: Hoping that Jeni or a member of her team to join this WG
15:01:56 <George> really great news!
15:02:08 <bhyland> Congratulations for all of you & for sharing this with us Hadley!
15:02:22 <olyerickson> Awesome to have THE JeniT involved in this work!
15:02:30 <George> q?
15:02:34 <George> ack HadleyBeeman 
15:02:34 <HadleyBeeman> q-
15:02:37 <olyerickson> Topic: Pre-Adjournment?
15:02:40 <olyerickson> None
15:02:49 <bhyland> @PhilA2 thanks for moving these issues forward.  Thanks all for input on vocabs … we made progress :-)
15:02:57 <olyerickson> Have a great one
15:03:00 <Zakim> -HadleyBeeman
15:03:01 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:03:01 <Zakim> -cygri
15:03:01 <Zakim> -bhyland
15:03:01 <Zakim> -Yigal
15:03:05 <Yigal> Yigal has left #gld
15:03:09 <Zakim> -DeirdreLee
15:03:12 <Zakim> -PhilA2
15:03:31 <George> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:03:45 <George> RRSAgent, generate minutes
15:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate George
15:05:06 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has left #gld
15:06:34 <Zakim> -olyerickson
15:06:35 <Zakim> -George_Thomas
15:06:36 <Zakim> T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM has ended
15:06:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, George_Thomas, +1.757.604.aaaa, olyerickson, DeirdreLee, GeraldSteeman, bhyland, PhilA2, Yigal, +1.440.389.aacc, HadleyBeeman, +34.60.062.aadd, boris, cygri