From Government Linked Data (GLD) Working Group Wiki
Please justify/explain all edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.
14:00:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld 14:00:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-gld-irc 14:00:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:00:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #gld 14:00:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GLD 14:00:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM already started 14:00:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Government Linked Data Working Group Teleconference 14:00:06 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2012 14:01:05 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #gld 14:02:20 <Zakim> + +1.757.604.aaaa 14:02:29 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb 14:02:42 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld 14:02:51 <GeraldSteeman> GeraldSteeman has joined #gld 14:02:53 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld 14:03:00 <George> zakim who is here? 14:03:21 <George> zakim, who is here? 14:03:26 <Zakim> +??P29 14:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, George_Thomas, +1.757.604.aaaa, +3539149aabb, ??P29 14:03:36 <olyerickson> Zakim, ??P29 is me. 14:03:43 <DeirdreLee> zakim, +3539149aabb is me 14:03:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see bhyland, GeraldSteeman, mhausenblas, olyerickson, Zakim, RRSAgent, DeirdreLee, George, MacTed, danbri_, cygri, trackbot, sandro 14:03:56 <Zakim> +olyerickson; got it 14:03:59 <GeraldSteeman> zakim, aaaa is me. 14:04:06 <Zakim> +DeirdreLee; got it 14:04:12 <olyerickson> Zaim, who is on the phone? 14:04:17 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman; got it 14:04:29 <George> zakim, who is here? 14:04:31 <Zakim> +bhyland 14:04:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, George_Thomas, GeraldSteeman, DeirdreLee, olyerickson, bhyland 14:05:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see bhyland, GeraldSteeman, mhausenblas, olyerickson, Zakim, RRSAgent, DeirdreLee, George, MacTed, danbri_, cygri, trackbot, sandro 14:05:20 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has joined #gld 14:05:53 <olyerickson> I'll scribe 14:05:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:06:06 <PhilA2> zakim, IPCaller is me 14:06:06 <Zakim> +PhilA2; got it 14:06:10 <olyerickson> Scribe: olyerickson 14:06:22 <bhyland> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20120913 14:06:30 <olyerickson> Topic: Minutes 14:06:35 <bhyland> Minutes for last week: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-09-06 14:06:38 <bhyland> +1 14:07:00 <PhilA2> Propose accept minutes of last week http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-09-06 14:07:19 <olyerickson> bhyland: Note resolution was added last week 14:07:31 <olyerickson> PhilA2: confirms resolution (near end) 14:07:41 <olyerickson> * note "+1s" at end 14:08:02 <olyerickson> PhilA2 to edit to note resolution 14:08:32 <olyerickson> bhyland: add to agenda discussion of "Business Core Vocabulary" 14:08:47 <olyerickson> Topic: Agenda items for this call 14:08:56 <olyerickson> "Business Core Vocabulary" (PhilA2 & bhyland request) 14:09:04 <olyerickson> Deliverable adjustments (George) 14:09:19 <bhyland> Agenda+ Feedback on ADMS Business Vocabulary feedback (has to do with suggestions to move to legal-entity) 14:09:34 <olyerickson> George: Would like to talk vocab but are thin on attendance (edits) 14:09:53 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Request to continue conformance discussion 14:11:01 <olyerickson> Topic: Conformance Issue (PhilA2) 14:11:09 <olyerickson> Recall discussion with Rufus 14:11:18 <olyerickson> Two key aspects: 14:11:19 <bhyland> Agenda+ Modifications to Main GLD wiki page under "Deliverables" (has to do with geography & spatial information) 14:11:34 <PhilA2> Take a look at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/legal/index.html#conformance 14:11:49 <olyerickson> * Double-check that what we agreed with Rufus is correct; see above editor's draft 14:12:11 <olyerickson> * The point: includes text that captures what we discussed w/ Rufus 14:12:20 <olyerickson> "What does it mean to conform to a vocab" 14:12:35 <olyerickson> * In the "open world" paradigm, very hard to think about 'conformance' 14:12:49 <olyerickson> * If everything is optional, how to measure conformance 14:12:50 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld 14:13:09 <olyerickson> * Conformance isn't about using everything 14:13:12 <bhyland> PhilA reviewed language: "Conformance to this vocabulary means using its classes, properties and relationships to describe businesses. It does not necessarily mean using every term and there are no terms that are mandatory. However, the inclusion of a term signals that the Working Group has found it to be useful. Applications may specify a minimum set of terms that publishers must use if their data is to be processed, and may also specify controlled vocabularies 14:13:51 <olyerickson> Applications MAY specify req'd usage. Vocab itself doesn't specify requirements for compliant usage 14:14:14 <olyerickson> * WG GLD may e.g. recognize cardinality constraints often important 14:14:57 <olyerickson> bhyland: What specifically was changed? What's different? 14:15:02 <sandro> +1 to this approach, and it's what we talked about 14:15:05 <George> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/legal/index.html#conformance 14:15:13 <George> Conformance to this vocabulary means using its classes, properties and relationships to describe businesses. It does not necessarily mean using every term and there are no terms that are mandatory. However, the inclusion of a term signals that the Working Group has found it to be useful. Applications may specify a minimum set of terms that publishers must use if their data is to be processed, and may also specify controlled vocabularies as acceptable values for p 14:15:15 <boris> boris has joined #gld 14:15:21 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld 14:15:27 <olyerickson> PhilA2: The (conformance) text is new; added to (he thinks) Editors' Draft 14:16:00 <olyerickson> bhyland: Some of the bullets are boilerplate 14:16:06 <PhilA2> Current ed draft oif DCAT http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/dcat/index.html 14:16:09 <Zakim> +??P37 14:16:22 <Yigal> zakim, ??p37 is me 14:16:22 <Zakim> +Yigal; got it 14:16:45 <olyerickson> PhilA2; Current Editors' Draft of DCAT doesn't have more "robust" language. Neither does Data Cube, neither does Org 14:16:55 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #gld 14:16:56 <olyerickson> (last bit was bhyland) 14:17:24 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: Rufus did not like some of the language; refer to public comments 14:17:48 <olyerickson> * bhyland: PhilA2's draft is paragraph, not bullets (problem) 14:18:02 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Wording "wishy-washy" 14:18:19 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Say what you mean, directly... 14:18:31 <Zakim> + +1.440.389.aacc 14:18:36 <HadleyBeeman> zakim, aacc is me 14:18:36 <Zakim> +HadleyBeeman; got it 14:18:44 <olyerickson> George: Well, GLD draft does say conformance will be "application specific" 14:18:57 <Zakim> + +34.60.062.aadd 14:19:23 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Would rather be definite on minimum set 14:20:27 <olyerickson> George; PhilA2 has captured what would make Rufus happy 14:20:40 <boris> zakim, aadd is me 14:20:40 <Zakim> +boris; got it 14:20:48 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Needs bullets, better for International readers 14:20:50 <boris> zakim, mute me 14:20:50 <Zakim> boris should now be muted 14:21:11 <olyerickson> * bhyland: Needs more direct language, current is wishy-washy 14:21:44 <olyerickson> * bhyland: better: "applications must satisfy minimum set of terms" 14:22:08 <bhyland> We are talking about http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/legal/index.html#conformance 14:22:15 <HadleyBeeman> thanks, bhyland. 14:22:33 <olyerickson> PhilA2: There is a difference between conforming to vocab vs conforming to application (such as meeting LOD Cloud requirements) 14:22:33 <bhyland> * has added some language beyond the boilerplate Conformance section and we're discussing it. 14:23:08 <PhilA2> olyerickson: It's not the vocab designers' brief to design the specify the requirements for getting into the application 14:23:16 <bhyland> q+ 14:23:58 <olyerickson> * George: Notion of standard is diluted if anyone can use it in any way they see fit. But that's the deal 14:24:24 <olyerickson> * sandro: We don't know what the applications will be/need. So hard to talk about it 14:24:27 <PhilA2> * Example: CKAN is an application that will define mandatory fields 14:24:36 <PhilA2> * Example: EU's Joinup platform will do this for ADMS 14:24:40 <bhyland> +1 14:24:49 <bhyland> to what you just said PhilA2 14:25:17 <olyerickson> sandro: Could do: create a "matrix" illustrating what terms are often consumed, what terms are rarely used. 14:25:56 <olyerickson> sandro: If you don't know what the specific usage is, you don't know what to include/not include 14:26:12 <olyerickson> * try really hard to include everything you have 14:26:33 <Zakim> -boris 14:26:34 <olyerickson> bhyland: GLD is in the best practices business 14:26:38 <PhilA2> q+ 14:26:44 <Zakim> +mhausenblas 14:26:49 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me 14:26:49 <Zakim> +cygri; got it 14:26:56 <George> q? 14:27:02 <olyerickson> sandro: WG's such as GLD can provide strong/helpful advice 14:27:10 <olyerickson> * to application developers 14:27:32 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Happy to include, "Include as much data as you can" 14:27:40 <olyerickson> * Specific applications in mind 14:27:52 <sandro> sandro: adivce people to publish using all the properties you can, and consume in a way that works even with lots of fields missing. 14:28:05 <olyerickson> ** CKAN: "If you want your data to appear on any CKAN portal, you must include these terms" 14:28:22 <olyerickson> ** EC "JoinUp" Platform: Same is true 14:28:46 <olyerickson> ** Example: if description less than five terms, submission rejected 14:29:19 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: App/Service designers entitled; not part of vocab designers job 14:29:23 <HadleyBeeman> :) 14:29:27 <cygri> :-) 14:29:49 <DeirdreLee> q? 14:29:53 <DeirdreLee> q+ 14:29:55 <cygri> q+ 14:29:55 <PhilA2> q- 14:30:11 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: "This specification does not specify what you must do" 14:30:12 <PhilA2> ack me 14:30:21 <HadleyBeeman> Isn't the point of establishing standards that we find the points of commonality? Each app/implementation may have additional requirements, no? 14:31:01 <George> ack bhyland 14:31:28 <olyerickson> * bhyland: PhilA2, please make it bulleted to make it more accessible; also, make conditionals more consistent/parsable 14:31:32 <PhilA2> action: Phil to tidy up the conformance language, preferably with bullet points 14:31:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-76 - Tidy up the conformance language, preferably with bullet points [on Phil Archer - due 2012-09-20]. 14:31:53 <olyerickson> * DeirdreLee: Agrees with what has been discussed 14:32:11 <bhyland> @PhilA2, please consider using same *format* as http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-org/#conformance 14:32:27 <olyerickson> ** Consider including word-of-warning, to indicate possible application requirements 14:32:37 <George> ack DeirdreLee 14:32:40 <olyerickson> * Is conformance section required? 14:32:49 <George> ack cygri 14:32:55 <olyerickson> * cygri: Yes. But there are plenty that don't 14:33:11 <olyerickson> * sandro: Makes perfect sense, from a "meaning" standpoinbt 14:33:26 <olyerickson> ** There is some inherent notion of conformance 14:33:34 <olyerickson> * PhilA2: There is another issue 14:33:42 <olyerickson> ** Come back to it 14:33:49 <bhyland> For example, People and Data Cube both need to get a Conformance section... 14:33:50 <olyerickson> * cygri: A couple points 14:34:08 <olyerickson> ** Dublin Core: Has notion of "Application Profile." 14:34:20 <olyerickson> ** e.g. "using DC in this particular way" 14:34:48 <olyerickson> ** DC doesn't dictate, but particular applications do 14:35:09 <olyerickson> ** Specialization of properties, etc 14:35:34 <PhilA2> An example DC Application Profile http://dublincore.org/documents/library-application-profile/index.shtml 14:35:39 <olyerickson> ** CKAN etal trying to define *Protocols* around vocabularies 14:36:06 <olyerickson> ** To actually exchange data based on these vocabs 14:36:20 <olyerickson> ** What's required, what's optional 14:36:59 <olyerickson> ** When we talk about conformance, need to discuss what kinds of things can conform 14:37:32 <olyerickson> ** In the case of DCAT, kinds of "things" may be specifications, data APIs, etc 14:37:51 <sandro> q? 14:37:59 <olyerickson> ** ie technical specifications need to use the vocab consistent with the definitions 14:38:03 <sandro> q+ 14:38:20 <George> eg. federation/harvesting based on vocab + app-specific profile + protocol... 14:38:37 <olyerickson> ** We are defining something that would be used by others to define standards/interfaces 14:39:04 <olyerickson> sandro: Curious what cygri thinks about "lightweight" usage 14:39:06 <George> q? 14:39:32 <PhilA2> ack sandro 14:39:36 <olyerickson> * cygri: There are plenty of specs "out there" that consist only of terminology 14:40:01 <olyerickson> ** Could we refer to e.g. ISO experience on 'conformance' 14:40:18 <olyerickson> ** possible to "certify," how do they do that? 14:40:21 <George> certification is a key gov idea 14:40:41 <olyerickson> q+ 14:40:57 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Culturally closer to DC world 14:41:31 <olyerickson> * conformance means conforming to the semantics as well 14:41:58 <sandro> q+ to say it's not necessarily common sense 14:42:09 <George> ack olyerickson 14:42:18 <sandro> q- 14:42:22 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Circling back to Richard's point. We can envision data APIs that say "uses DCAT etc." 14:42:45 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Then conject that a developer will take that literally and build something based on the spec 14:43:26 <PhilA2> ... that's why I think it's important to flag in the spec that this is the super set, this is what could be included. This is not a required list. Please refer to the application for guidance 14:43:32 <PhilA2> PhilA2: +1 to olyerickson 14:44:55 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Adopters might be very lightweight on what they use. They should be clear. People with queryable interfaces need to be clear on what is required and optional 14:45:26 <olyerickson> bhyland: Does this clarify? Is this enough? 14:45:41 <olyerickson> PhilA2: yes...thinks he knows what he'll say 14:46:09 <olyerickson> Topic: Otherwise very Loosely Derived Agenda Items 14:46:34 <olyerickson> * George: since we have cygri, recap DCAT resolution? 14:46:56 <olyerickson> ** George: Does anyone recall DCAT resolution? 14:47:03 <bhyland> @George - how about remaining Business Core vocab issues raised by email (this week) to allow Phil to complete actions assigned last week ... 14:47:32 <olyerickson> * PhilA2 and George searching for applicable minutes 14:47:33 <PhilA2> This one http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-07-26 14:48:38 <olyerickson> * PhilA2 Subclasses, classes, resources, distributions, oh my! 14:48:54 <olyerickson> Topic: Business Core Vocab 14:49:05 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman 14:49:16 <olyerickson> * bhyland: PhilA2 wants to get (this) up in W3C namespace 14:49:49 <PhilA2> Currently we have http://www.w3.org/ns/legal 14:50:17 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Placeholder page that says 'It's coming..." 14:50:35 <olyerickson> * Currently being used by OpenCorporates, swedish govt etc 14:50:49 <olyerickson> * Following comments, an updated version of ADMS coming 14:50:52 <bhyland> So the current Business Core Vocab in ED form, is here dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/legal/ 14:51:31 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to clearer 14:51:35 <olyerickson> PhilA2: "legal" because of "legal entity" 14:51:38 <sandro> +1 legal-entity 14:52:03 <sandro> yeah -- maybe merge this and make it org 2.0 ? 14:52:11 <olyerickson> bhyland: PhilA2 is mixing things 14:52:28 <olyerickson> * Naming should be closer to what it is 14:52:53 <olyerickson> * Term "legal" is too broad (so is "legal entity" but that's the deal) 14:53:16 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld 14:53:28 <olyerickson> sandro: Example: W3C (may or may not be "legal entity" 14:53:32 <sandro> W3C most certainly does exist as an organization, but not a legal-entity. 14:54:20 <olyerickson> bhyland: Whole issue of OpenCorporates utilization is separate issue 14:54:37 <PhilA2> nothing to apologise for! 14:54:53 <HadleyBeeman> I've been concerned about court data as well, bhyland 14:55:24 <olyerickson> PhilA2: This kind of issue is part of the "learning curve" 14:55:26 <bhyland> @Hadley, right, court data, licenses, all are "legal" mega categories. 14:55:38 <olyerickson> * changing the namespace is a legitimate part of that learning curve 14:55:59 <olyerickson> bhyland: So, what are next steps? Feedback? 14:56:08 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Two separate documents 14:56:13 <olyerickson> * Spec will be... 14:56:15 <PhilA2> specification /TR/vocab-legal-entity 14:56:24 <olyerickson> * Namespace will be... 14:56:26 <bhyland> +1, I'm OK with that 14:56:28 <PhilA2> namespace logically is therefore /ns/legal-entity 14:56:59 <olyerickson> PhilA2: "horse in front of the cart..." 14:57:08 <bhyland> PhilA2: First issue (TR one) is trivial to fix. The second one, (ns/) is harder to change ... 14:58:18 <olyerickson> bhyland: If you develop a system based on a proto vocab et.al....that's the risk you take 14:58:47 <olyerickson> +1 to early adopter usage being a sign of goodness 14:58:47 <sandro> +1 bhyland -- we can't be held to be compatible with decisions we haven't made 14:59:08 <olyerickson> +1 to sandro to bhyland 14:59:20 <olyerickson> PhilA2: In that case... 14:59:21 <bhyland> … +1 to sandro & John ;-) 14:59:49 <olyerickson> * the group is happy for vocab to be know as the legal entity vocabulary 14:59:51 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to the name changes. Sounds good to me. 14:59:52 <George> +1 15:00:02 <olyerickson> * namespace should reflect both of those words 15:00:04 <bhyland> Resolved: The vocabulary known as Business Core Vocabulary is now being changed to the "Legal Entity Vocabulary" 15:00:07 <bhyland> +1 15:00:19 <olyerickson> George: All right, then! 15:00:27 <HadleyBeeman> q+ 15:00:38 <HadleyBeeman> hang on… finding mute 15:00:41 <bhyland> Resolved: The namespace previously known as /ns/legal shall be moved to /ns/legal-entity 15:00:44 <bhyland> +1 15:01:04 <PhilA2> PhilA2: I'd like to record my talks to the chairs for giving these issues time today 15:01:06 <olyerickson> HadleyBeeman: very hard to hear comments on Open data Initiative 15:01:22 <olyerickson> * Scribe literally can't hear HadleyBeeman 15:01:24 <PhilA2> HadleyBeeman: Alluncing Gavin Sparks as CEO and Jeni Tennison as CTO of the Open data Institute 15:01:34 <PhilA2> s/Alluncing/Announcing/ 15:01:54 <PhilA2> HadleyBeeman: Hoping that Jeni or a member of her team to join this WG 15:01:56 <George> really great news! 15:02:08 <bhyland> Congratulations for all of you & for sharing this with us Hadley! 15:02:22 <olyerickson> Awesome to have THE JeniT involved in this work! 15:02:30 <George> q? 15:02:34 <George> ack HadleyBeeman 15:02:34 <HadleyBeeman> q- 15:02:37 <olyerickson> Topic: Pre-Adjournment? 15:02:40 <olyerickson> None 15:02:49 <bhyland> @PhilA2 thanks for moving these issues forward. Thanks all for input on vocabs … we made progress :-) 15:02:57 <olyerickson> Have a great one 15:03:00 <Zakim> -HadleyBeeman 15:03:01 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:03:01 <Zakim> -cygri 15:03:01 <Zakim> -bhyland 15:03:01 <Zakim> -Yigal 15:03:05 <Yigal> Yigal has left #gld 15:03:09 <Zakim> -DeirdreLee 15:03:12 <Zakim> -PhilA2 15:03:31 <George> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible 15:03:45 <George> RRSAgent, generate minutes 15:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-gld-minutes.html George 15:05:06 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has left #gld 15:06:34 <Zakim> -olyerickson 15:06:35 <Zakim> -George_Thomas 15:06:36 <Zakim> T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM has ended 15:06:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, George_Thomas, +1.757.604.aaaa, olyerickson, DeirdreLee, GeraldSteeman, bhyland, PhilA2, Yigal, +1.440.389.aacc, HadleyBeeman, +34.60.062.aadd, boris, cygri # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000286