Chatlog 2012-04-05

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14:01:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld
14:01:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/05-gld-irc
14:01:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:01:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #gld
14:01:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GLD
14:01:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM already started
14:01:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Government Linked Data Working Group Teleconference
14:01:13 <trackbot> Date: 05 April 2012
14:01:18 <luisBermudez> luisBermudez has joined #gld
14:01:19 <Zakim> + +33.4.93.00.aadd
14:01:44 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has joined #gld
14:01:53 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
14:02:01 <PhilA2> zakim, code?
14:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aaee
14:02:07 <Zakim> +??P34
14:02:13 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, me is ??p34
14:02:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 45394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), PhilA2
14:02:37 <Zakim> sorry, BartvanLeeuwen, I do not recognize a party named 'me'
14:02:44 <Zakim> + +3539149aaff
14:02:53 <Zakim> + +1.267.481.aagg
14:02:55 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaff is me
14:03:13 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??p34 is me
14:03:17 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
14:03:24 <George> trackbot, start telecon
14:03:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:03:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GLD
14:03:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Government Linked Data Working Group Teleconference
14:03:29 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
14:03:29 <trackbot> Date: 05 April 2012
14:03:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM already started
14:03:57 <Zakim> +??P44
14:04:12 <olyerickson> Zakim, ??P44 is me.
14:04:18 <BenediktKaempgen> zakim, who's here?
14:04:31 <Zakim> +olyerickson; got it
14:04:38 <bhyland> zakim, who is on the call?
14:04:39 <Zakim> +??P52
14:04:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.691.aaaa, George_Thomas, +49.721.aabb, +1.202.566.aacc, +33.4.93.00.aadd, +1.540.898.aaee, BartvanLeeuwen, mhausenblas, +1.267.481.aagg, olyerickson,
14:04:46 <Zakim> ... ??P52
14:04:47 <PhilA2> zakim, ??p52 is me
14:05:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.691.aaaa, George_Thomas, +49.721.aabb, +1.202.566.aacc, +33.4.93.00.aadd, +1.540.898.aaee, BartvanLeeuwen, mhausenblas, +1.267.481.aagg, olyerickson,
14:05:11 <BenediktKaempgen> zakim, aabb is BenediktKaempgen
14:05:19 <Zakim> ... ??P52
14:05:21 <DanG> 691-aaaa is DanG
14:05:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see Mike_Pendleton, PhilA2, luisBermudez, Zakim, RRSAgent, gatemezi, DanG, olyerickson, BartvanLeeuwen, MacTed, George, mhausenblas, danbri, BenediktKaempgen, bhyland,
14:05:26 <Zakim> ... trackbot, sandro
14:05:29 <luisBermudez> aagg is me
14:05:32 <Zakim> +PhilA2; got it
14:05:48 <PhilA2> zakim, aaaa is DanG
14:05:50 <bhyland> zakim, aaaa is danG
14:05:52 <Zakim> +BenediktKaempgen; got it
14:06:28 <Zakim> +DanG; got it
14:06:32 <Zakim> sorry, bhyland, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:06:40 <Mike_Pendleton> zakim, aacc is Mike_Pendleton
14:07:08 <George> zakim, who is here?
14:07:10 <gatemezi> Zakim, +33.4.93.00.aadd is me
14:07:14 <Zakim> +Mike_Pendleton; got it
14:07:30 <tinagheen> tinagheen has joined #gld
14:07:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanG, George_Thomas, BenediktKaempgen, Mike_Pendleton, +33.4.93.00.aadd, +1.540.898.aaee, BartvanLeeuwen, mhausenblas, +1.267.481.aagg, olyerickson, PhilA2
14:07:49 <Zakim> +gatemezi; got it
14:08:03 <gatemezi> Zakim, +33.4.93.00.aadd is gatemezi
14:08:07 <olyerickson> Scribe: olyerickson
14:08:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see tinagheen, Mike_Pendleton, PhilA2, luisBermudez, Zakim, RRSAgent, gatemezi, DanG, olyerickson, BartvanLeeuwen, MacTed, George, mhausenblas, danbri, BenediktKaempgen,
14:08:23 <Zakim> ... bhyland, trackbot, sandro
14:08:39 <PhilA2> zakim, who is here?
14:08:42 <Zakim> sorry, gatemezi, I do not recognize a party named '+33.4.93.00.aadd'
14:08:47 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:08:53 <tinagheen> Zakim, [LC] is me
14:08:57 <olyerickson> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20120405
14:09:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanG, George_Thomas, BenediktKaempgen, Mike_Pendleton, gatemezi, +1.540.898.aaee, BartvanLeeuwen, mhausenblas, +1.267.481.aagg, olyerickson, PhilA2, [LC]
14:09:16 <olyerickson> Materials published; congrats and thanks to everyone esp Sandrp
14:09:21 <Zakim> +tinagheen; got it
14:09:24 <olyerickson> s/Sandrp/Sandro/
14:09:31 <gatemezi> s/Sandrp/Sandro
14:09:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see tinagheen, Mike_Pendleton, PhilA2, luisBermudez, Zakim, RRSAgent, gatemezi, DanG, olyerickson, BartvanLeeuwen, MacTed, George, mhausenblas, danbri, BenediktKaempgen,
14:09:45 <Zakim> ... bhyland, trackbot, sandro
14:09:47 <PhilA2> http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dcat/ works
14:09:48 <olyerickson> Comments from mhausenblas
14:09:55 <Zakim> + +91.80.67.84.aahh
14:10:11 <olyerickson> Now that FPWD is out, move toward ISA (?) "alignment"
14:10:45 <olyerickson> ... PhilA: core vocabs integrated next couple weeks
14:11:16 <olyerickson> ... ISA specs NOT currently in published versions of FPWDs
14:11:17 <Biplav> Biplav has joined #gld
14:11:31 <olyerickson> mhausenblas: Planning call req'd
14:11:38 <olyerickson> PhilA2: makes sense
14:11:48 <olyerickson> ... needs to send mhausenblas something before WWW
14:12:07 <PhilA2> http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-people/ works
14:12:15 <George> q?
14:12:27 <bhyland> agenda+ coordination between Prov group (Luc and Paul Groth) + Mhausenblas & ?? re: agent meets people vocab 
14:12:28 <PhilA2> Guess what http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-data-cube/
14:12:51 <PhilA2> And http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-org/
14:13:24 <olyerickson> bhyland: Skip to "Org" agenda item
14:13:29 <PhilA2> http://www.w3.org/TR/gld-bp/ :-(
14:13:37 <olyerickson> +1 bhyland to explain...
14:14:19 <olyerickson> ... Weds during sweb coord meeting, paul groth mentioned multiple W3C groups with RPOV concerns
14:14:58 <PhilA2> s/RPOV/PROV/
14:15:03 <olyerickson> Topic: PROV tie-ins
14:15:41 <olyerickson> mhausenblas: What is the status of PROV?
14:15:52 <PhilA2> q+
14:16:08 <olyerickson> bhyland: need to keep up with our liaison with PROV
14:16:25 <olyerickson> ... current status of PROV, not that far ahead 
14:16:37 <George> ack PhilA
14:16:41 <olyerickson> PhilA2: would like to be involved in that discussion
14:17:10 <bhyland> Paul Groth mentioned these references for our consideration:
14:17:11 <bhyland> [1] people: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/people/index.html
14:17:11 <bhyland> [2] org: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/org/index.html
14:17:11 <bhyland> [3] prov-dm: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#component2
14:17:13 <olyerickson> ... SPARQL 1.1 is about to bring up "prov" considerations
14:17:33 <George> q?
14:17:44 <olyerickson> q?
14:17:48 <olyerickson> q+
14:18:23 <olyerickson> George: Org "speaks to" OPMV...
14:18:55 <olyerickson> Topic: Last week's minutes
14:18:58 <mhausenblas> +1
14:19:07 <gatemezi> +1 
14:19:10 <Mike_Pendleton> +1
14:19:13 <BenediktKaempgen> +1
14:19:13 <luisBermudez> +1
14:19:40 <PhilA2> q?
14:19:46 <olyerickson> George: Sorry to miss "geo work" discussion last week
14:19:58 <olyerickson> ... any further discussion/comments
14:20:10 <bhyland> closing loop on coordinating mhausenblas, phila2, luc and paul groth, see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/CG/track/actions/8
14:20:12 <George> q?
14:20:16 <George> ack olyerickson 
14:20:59 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Regarding the provenance discussion... I'm trying to understand what the issue is? Was Paul concerned that there are lots of parallel efforts on provenance, or people, or what?
14:21:04 <bhyland> TOPIC: Wrap up from last week's GeoLinkData Initiative ...
14:21:34 <annew> annew has joined #gld
14:21:52 <olyerickson> bhyland: explanation of PROV question
14:22:08 <PhilA2> bhyland: AIUI, Paul in particular, they invented "agent" and it has a lot of people attributes. We're up to 4 different ways to capture people-related info just from W3C
14:22:12 <olyerickson> ... up to 4 ways to describe people
14:22:21 <olyerickson> ... need to coordinate
14:22:38 <olyerickson> ... bhyland tasked with bringing together the various parties
14:22:53 <olyerickson> ... is there common ground, or should there be separate paths
14:22:57 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:23:01 <sandro> (Sorry I'm late)
14:23:08 <olyerickson> ... can/should "people" be simpler
14:23:15 <PhilA2> Someone said schema.org ? http://philarcher.org/diary/2012/danbri/
14:23:50 <olyerickson> ... example schema.org w.r.t simplicity 9and role in packaging/marketing)
14:24:30 <olyerickson> Topic: What to do w.r.t. geo vocabulary
14:24:49 <olyerickson> George: many esp govt would like to put a "stake in the ground"
14:24:54 <bhyland> To remind people who were present last week (and weren't), Boris gave a great talk on work on map4rdf, see http://oegdev.dia.fi.upm.es/projects/map4rdf/
14:24:56 <olyerickson> ... poll the group?
14:25:30 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Trying to notice what is going on, while being concerned about strengthing this group
14:25:41 <olyerickson> ... BUT we do have optional item
14:25:42 <gatemezi> @bhyland --Thanks for the link 
14:25:54 <olyerickson> ... there is much well-done current work in this area
14:25:59 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
14:26:16 <olyerickson> ... thinks, OGC's (??) job
14:26:24 <olyerickson> ... yet people bring it to use
14:26:24 <bhyland> Per PhilA2's reference, see http://geovocab.org/doc/neogeo/
14:26:42 <gatemezi> +1 to PhilA
14:26:44 <PhilA2> ack BartvanLeeuwen
14:26:49 <olyerickson> ... GLD is in a position to consider, yet we have it as an opt. on our charter
14:27:06 <olyerickson> BartvanLeeuwen: concern over amt of work reqd to get it done
14:27:18 <olyerickson> ... should at least reference the relevant vocabs
14:27:30 <bhyland> q+
14:27:34 <olyerickson> ... shouldn't write our own recommendation
14:27:42 <olyerickson> ... there are "smarter" people to do that
14:27:53 <olyerickson> ... best practices should be able to point to other references
14:28:02 <PhilA2> ref: Open Geospatial Consortium http://www.opengeospatial.org/
14:28:03 <olyerickson> ... but maybe not...
14:28:08 <luisBermudez> q+
14:28:26 <olyerickson> George: If there *is* energy, there is interest in the community
14:28:40 <olyerickson> ... there's lots of innovation going on in this area
14:28:42 <olyerickson> bhyland: 
14:28:57 <olyerickson> bhyland: BP doc focusing on what SHOULD be done
14:29:02 <olyerickson> ... BP not about "how"
14:29:16 <olyerickson> ... rec'd of vocabs is new ground for W3C
14:29:53 <PhilA2> I'm the last person to object to FOAF!
14:29:55 <olyerickson> ... GLD approach to rec'd vocabs is new
14:30:21 <PhilA2> q+
14:30:22 <olyerickson> ... need to be careful to not go beyond out core expertise
14:30:26 <PhilA2> ack bhyland
14:30:34 <PhilA2> ack luisBermudez
14:31:09 <olyerickson> luisBermudez: Geo vocab standard will be published soon
14:31:34 <olyerickson> ... important to find way to integrate e.g. geoSPARQL, etc
14:32:12 <PhilA2> luisBermudez:  geoSPARQL will be publicly available in June (from OGC)
14:32:21 <PhilA2> ack me
14:32:34 <olyerickson> ... luisBermudez the problem: geoSPARQL not a publicly available standard (will be)
14:32:52 <BenediktKaempgen> +q
14:33:00 <olyerickson> PhilA2: GLD should look at it "a little later" in the year
14:33:14 <olyerickson> ... FOAF is now under the wing of DC
14:33:17 <sandro> q?
14:33:40 <sandro> q+ to ask Phil in what sense one vocab can use another
14:33:41 <bhyland> @PhilA2 thanks for clarifying/reminding me re: ISA People & FOAF embrace 
14:33:50 <olyerickson> ... thought question: Will FOAF be around next year? 
14:34:12 <sandro> DanG, the reference was to Dan Brickley, co-parent of FOAF.
14:35:43 <danbri> while we're on topic, can I draw attention to some other People vocab things from this week?
14:35:44 <bhyland> @george, what URL would you like me to add to agenda from HR14 proposal discussion?
14:35:46 <danbri> see https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/opensocial-and-gadgets-spec  
14:35:48 <olyerickson> BenediktKaempgen: Talked to supervisor, tells us that that community has tried to consolidate, question of what GLD process will be for integrating in ???geo (neogeo?)
14:36:13 <olyerickson> Thanks to sandro for the big push last night
14:36:13 <bhyland> +1 thanks to Sandro
14:36:18 <danbri> opensocial is a tech for making social networks, and is linked to PortableContacts, a vcard-based addressbook format. opensocial people are wondering how to address new requirements for modelling organizations, scientific info etc.
14:36:24 <gatemezi> s/???geo/neogeo
14:36:37 <olyerickson> um
14:36:38 <danbri> e.g .https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/opensocial-and-gadgets-spec/g3NyGn-8Avs
14:36:49 <olyerickson> is there an announcement that some of us are missing? 
14:37:07 <olyerickson> sandro: What does it mean for one vocab to "use" another
14:37:13 <danbri> neogeo ~ http://nuts.geovocab.org/id/nuts0.html  http://nuts.geovocab.org/ ?
14:38:15 <olyerickson> PhilA2: Issue of alignment of e.g. foaf:Person with schema.org equivalent, etc
14:38:45 <olyerickson> ... See PhilA2 blog post (today)
14:39:09 <olyerickson> ... motivated PhilA2 to think foaf should be retired...
14:39:20 <gatemezi> @LuisBermudez: could you know any triple store that have implemented part of geoSPARQL requirements?
14:39:44 <olyerickson> sandro:  can't recommend The Government to use vocab that can't be used in perpetuity
14:39:50 <PhilA2> smotivated PhilA2 to think foaf should be retired.../motivated PhilA2 to think a day may come when foaf could be retired.../
14:39:54 <PhilA2> s/motivated PhilA2 to think foaf should be retired.../motivated PhilA2 to think a day may come when foaf could be retired.../
14:40:12 <PhilA2> My blog post http://philarcher.org/diary/2012/danbri/
14:40:27 <sandro> q?
14:40:33 <sandro> queue=
14:40:57 <bhyland> PhilA2: There may a day in our community that some sacred cows should be retired … 
14:41:26 <George> q?
14:42:03 <bhyland> q+
14:42:09 <bhyland> q+
14:42:21 <sandro> q+ to disagree with olyerickson 
14:42:51 <olyerickson> bhyland: It's a concept called "social responsibility"
14:43:14 <olyerickson> ... when you publish "content" you are making a commitment or 'social contract'
14:43:35 <olyerickson> ... for the foreseeable future
14:43:48 <olyerickson> ... BP must educate/"warn" adopters
14:44:15 <olyerickson> ... vocabs should be from authoritative sources that make commitment
14:44:24 <bhyland> zakim, who is speaking?
14:44:33 <olyerickson> sandro: doesn't agree
14:44:35 <Zakim> bhyland, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: George_Thomas (5%), olyerickson (9%), Sandro (57%)
14:44:41 <Zakim> - +91.80.67.84.aahh
14:44:56 <olyerickson> ... W3C makes a commitment to e.g. DCAT
14:45:21 <George> q?
14:45:25 <George> ack bhyland 
14:45:25 <olyerickson> ... details will change, there is a process and W3C stands behind it
14:45:28 <George> ack sandro 
14:45:28 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to disagree with olyerickson
14:45:29 <bhyland> ack bhyland
14:46:23 <PhilA2> olyerickson: You, Sandro, were right to disagree with my words
14:46:33 <PhilA2> olyerickson: An organisation needs to know what it is adopting
14:46:35 <bhyland> Sandro: Gov'ts should be able to count on key vocabs, such as DCAT, in perpetuity.
14:46:53 <PhilA2> ... e.g. the current version of DCAT, recognising that it may evolve
14:47:12 <PhilA2> olyerickson: They need to recognise that by using a vocan they become part of that community
14:47:27 <sandro> +1 olyerickson  Yes, people adopting a tech become part of the stewardship community, when things work well.    That's sustainable.
14:47:32 <bhyland> johnerickson: Gov't need to recognize their role as stewards of vocabs [and data sets] that they publish.  
14:47:34 <PhilA2> ... they can't wine about the fact that current browsers don't working with HTML1 any more
14:47:40 <sandro> q?
14:47:53 <olyerickson> we are in fervent agreement
14:47:59 <bhyland> zakim, who is on the call?
14:47:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanG, George_Thomas, BenediktKaempgen, Mike_Pendleton, gatemezi, +1.540.898.aaee, BartvanLeeuwen, mhausenblas, +1.267.481.aagg, olyerickson, PhilA2, tinagheen,
14:48:02 <Zakim> ... Sandro
14:48:07 <olyerickson> (if not using the most articulate language)
14:48:22 <olyerickson> sandro: brings us back to foaf
14:48:59 <mhausenblas> Michael: I have to apologise, need to run now (need to do some fire-fighting, unforeseen incident that came up …) 
14:49:02 <olyerickson> ... might have a situation where W3C doesn't control the namespace, dereferencing, etc
14:49:16 <olyerickson> ... need to ensure namespace is part of the community stewardship
14:49:27 <PhilA2> q+
14:49:30 <olyerickson> ... community needs to have control
14:49:43 <olyerickson> PhilA2: agrees with sandro
14:50:24 <sandro> sandro: We should only use namespaces for which we have en enforcable commitment to respect some legitimate stewardship/community process
14:50:29 <olyerickson> ... "DanBri under a bus" problem has created adoption problems for foaf in the past, seems to be resolved now
14:51:15 <olyerickson> ... key issue is foaf:Person and schema.org allow imaginary people
14:51:29 <PhilA2> q-
14:51:37 <olyerickson> Topic: HR14
14:51:46 <olyerickson> ... httpRange-14
14:51:54 <danbri> (the dictionaries definition of 'person' allows imaginary people too) (imagine a dictionary where each term had 'except for pretend X's...'?)
14:51:55 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
14:52:13 <olyerickson> George: any views/thoughts? 
14:52:18 <danbri> btw ... if GLD have expectations re what long-term preservation commitments you'd like from schema.org, do please write them down and pass them along 
14:52:19 <olyerickson> sandro: (laughs) 
14:52:26 <olyerickson> ... gave up in 2003
14:52:55 <olyerickson> ... proposed 303 but has given up 
14:53:44 <gatemezi> I was reading also this post of Jenni http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/168
14:53:49 <PhilA2> olyerickson: I've been watching in the way you watch a NASCAR race expecting a crash. A real concern is implementation efficiency
14:54:22 <PhilA2> ... there are existential issues but the practical ones are perhaps more key - redirection, caching and so on
14:54:45 <PhilA2> ... there are some proposals around 3xx and 200/207
14:55:02 <PhilA2> ... I really haven't seen a convergence
14:55:15 <olyerickson> Current state: Open for proposals
14:55:16 <PhilA2> George: It's open for proposals on possible conversion
14:55:22 <bhyland> q+
14:56:31 <sandro> q+
14:56:32 <bhyland> olyerickson: "I'm not interested from a fascinated academic perspective, rather a grouchy implementer."
14:56:49 <olyerickson> ;)
14:57:47 <olyerickson> bhyland: jenit is soliciting proposals
14:58:01 <olyerickson> ... trying to do it sensibly 
14:58:10 <olyerickson> ... reaching out to stakeholders
14:58:31 <olyerickson> ... jenit trying to get something done
14:58:47 <olyerickson> ... put something in writing, not "pissy emails"
14:59:11 <olyerickson> not(sandro) : interested in concern over performance
14:59:32 <olyerickson> ... are there designs that deliver performance which doesn't violate semantics of 303
14:59:54 <George> q?
14:59:55 <olyerickson> how to engage: write it up, submit
15:00:11 <bhyland> ack bhyland
15:00:13 <olyerickson> Topic: Wrap-up
15:00:59 <olyerickson> George: Interesting how when GLD people get interested and start to engage, their Inboxes get flooded
15:01:25 <olyerickson> Topic: Agenda items for next week
15:01:32 <olyerickson> (none offered)
15:01:42 <olyerickson> Adjorned
15:01:46 <gatemezi> Thanks George and olyerickson..
15:01:48 <olyerickson> 'Have a great day'
15:01:52 <BartvanLeeuwen> thx and bye !
15:01:52 <BenediktKaempgen> Thanks
15:01:55 <DanG> Bye
15:02:01 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has left #gld
15:02:07 <Zakim> -tinagheen
15:02:13 <Zakim> -DanG
15:02:17 <Zakim> -Mike_Pendleton
15:02:19 <Zakim> - +1.540.898.aaee
15:02:21 <Zakim> - +1.267.481.aagg
15:02:29 <Zakim> -PhilA2
15:02:33 <olyerickson> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:02:37 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:02:41 <Zakim> -BenediktKaempgen
15:02:46 <olyerickson> RRSAgent, generate minutes
15:02:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/05-gld-minutes.html olyerickson
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