Chatlog 2012-01-26

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01:02:35 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD
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11:04:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld
11:04:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-gld-irc
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11:04:19 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to move dcat-related content from eGov wiki to GLD wiki
11:04:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Move dcat-related content from eGov wiki to GLD wiki [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-02-02].
11:05:36 <PhilA> close Action-29 Completed 26/1/12
11:21:53 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD
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11:33:03 <PhilA> action-29 Close
11:34:14 <PhilA> close Action-29
11:34:15 <trackbot> ACTION-29 Add products on issue tracker closed
11:36:44 <PhilA> action: PhilA to convert editors' draft of DCAT to make use of respec
11:36:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Convert editors' draft of DCAT to make use of respec [on Phil Archer - due 2012-02-02].
11:37:10 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to update http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat to point to the new dcat ED
11:37:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Update http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat to point to the new dcat ED [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-02-02].
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11:57:47 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone
11:57:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', cygri
11:57:55 <HadleyBeeman> Does zakim know that this IRC channel is connected to our call?
11:57:58 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
11:57:58 <Zakim> sorry, cygri, I don't know what conference this is
11:57:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see dvilasuero, mhausenblas, Zakim, fadi, RRSAgent, PhilA, cygri, csarven, BartvanLeeuwen, HadleyBeeman, cgueret_work, rreck, trackbot, sandro
11:58:05 <HadleyBeeman> zakim, this is GLD1
11:58:05 <Zakim> ok, HadleyBeeman; that matches SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM
11:58:18 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
11:58:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see galway, HadleyBeeman, [LC]
11:58:27 <cygri> zakim, fadi is with galway
11:58:27 <Zakim> +fadi; got it
11:58:34 <cygri> zakim, PhilA is with galway
11:58:34 <Zakim> +PhilA; got it
11:58:39 <cygri> zakim, dvilasuero is with galway
11:58:39 <Zakim> +dvilasuero; got it
11:58:43 <cygri> zakim, i'm with galway
11:58:43 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
11:58:48 <GofranShukair> GofranShukair has joined #gld
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11:58:57 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is with galway
11:58:57 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
11:59:08 <cygri> zakim, GofranShukair is with galway
11:59:08 <Zakim> +GofranShukair; got it
11:59:23 <cygri> zakim, BartvanLeeuwen is with galway
11:59:23 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
11:59:33 <cygri> zakim, csarven is with galway
11:59:33 <Zakim> +csarven; got it
12:00:08 <cygri> (ghislain, boris, spyros and deirdre are not yet on IRC)
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12:00:30 <BenediktKaempgen> BenediktKaempgen has joined #gld
12:00:35 <cygri> zakim, BenediktKaempgen is with galway
12:00:35 <Zakim> +BenediktKaempgen; got it
12:00:42 <cygri> zakim, gatemezin is with galway
12:00:42 <Zakim> +gatemezin; got it
12:00:48 <BenediktKaempgen> thanks, cygri
12:00:57 <gatemezin> @cygri, thanks!!
12:01:04 <Zakim> +sandro
12:01:19 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see galway, HadleyBeeman, [LC], sandro
12:01:20 <Zakim> galway has galway, fadi, PhilA, dvilasuero, cygri, mhausenblas, GofranShukair, BartvanLeeuwen, csarven, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin
12:01:32 <Zakim> +olyerickson
12:02:34 <HadleyBeeman> :)
12:04:57 <boris> boris has joined #gld
12:05:06 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman
12:05:43 <mhausenblas> zakim, who's here>?
12:05:43 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
12:05:45 <mhausenblas> zakim, who's here?
12:05:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see galway, HadleyBeeman, [LC], sandro, olyerickson, GeraldSteeman
12:05:47 <Zakim> galway has galway, fadi, PhilA, dvilasuero, cygri, mhausenblas, GofranShukair, BartvanLeeuwen, csarven, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin
12:05:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see boris, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin, t_gheen, GofranShukair, dvilasuero, mhausenblas, Zakim, fadi, RRSAgent, PhilA, cygri, csarven, BartvanLeeuwen, HadleyBeeman,
12:05:53 <Zakim> ... cgueret_work, rreck, trackbot, sandro
12:06:07 <cygri> zakim, boris is with galway
12:06:07 <Zakim> +boris; got it
12:06:10 <Zakim> +Washington
12:06:12 <GeraldSteeman> GeraldSteeman has joined #GLD
12:06:17 <HadleyBeeman> Morning, Washington
12:07:06 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
12:09:04 <HadleyBeeman> Wasn't there going to be some breakout work from eGov as well (on DCAT)?
12:09:16 <t_gheen> Zakim, [LC] is me
12:09:16 <Zakim> +t_gheen; got it
12:09:58 <spyroskotoulas> spyroskotoulas has joined #gld
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12:12:52 <PhilA> scribe: cygri
12:12:58 <cygri> zakim, spyroskotoulas is with galway
12:12:58 <Zakim> +spyroskotoulas; got it
12:13:04 <cygri> zakim, DeirdreLee is with galway
12:13:04 <Zakim> +DeirdreLee; got it
12:13:08 <stasinos> stasinos has joined #gld
12:14:28 <cygri> gatemezin: ghislain atemezing, EURECOM, france
12:14:47 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #gld
12:14:51 <mhausenblas> ACTION-31?
12:14:51 <trackbot> ACTION-31 -- Boris Villazón-Terrazas to create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs -- due 2012-02-01 -- OPEN
12:14:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/actions/31
12:14:57 <cygri> topic: Report on work since yesterday
12:15:02 <George> George has joined #gld
12:15:08 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Multi-lingualismOfVocabs
12:15:10 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-31
12:15:10 <trackbot> ACTION-31 Create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs closed
12:15:12 <cygri> boris: we created a wiki page on multilingual issues
12:15:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:15:32 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-32?
12:15:35 <cygri> mhausenblas: all please contribute to this page
12:15:38 <mhausenblas> ACTION-32?
12:15:38 <trackbot> ACTION-32 -- Michael Hausenblas to compile first version of vocabulary selection quality checklist -- due 2012-02-01 -- OPEN
12:15:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/actions/32
12:15:42 <DaveReynolds> zakim, IPcaller is me
12:15:42 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds; got it
12:15:47 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me
12:15:47 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted
12:15:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:16:00 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-32
12:16:00 <trackbot> ACTION-32 Compile first version of vocabulary selection quality checklist closed
12:16:02 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/VocabularySelectionQualityChecklist
12:16:13 <cygri> mhausenblas: we did a first cut of vocabulary selection checklist
12:16:15 <stasinos> Zakim, [IPcaller] is stasinos
12:16:15 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it
12:16:47 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
12:16:59 <cygri> q+
12:17:07 <cygri> mhausenblas: vocabulary selection might be too restrictive, so we reinterpreted as "dealing with vocabularies"
12:17:17 <cygri> ... to cover vocabulary discovery, selection and creation
12:18:00 <cygri> ... we expect that most users will be well-served by info on discovery+selection
12:18:01 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
12:18:08 <cygri> ... but some will need to create new ones
12:18:41 <cygri> ... discussing ontology creation methodologies are out of scope but might point to them informatively
12:19:27 <cygri> ... versioning ...
12:20:17 <cygri> ... flow chart ... driven by usage ... add/remove terms ...
12:20:36 <cygri> ... deprecating vocabularies
12:20:51 <cygri> ... some cross-cutting issues
12:20:55 <olyerickson1> olyerickson1 has joined #GLD
12:21:16 <cygri> ... like stability
12:21:38 <PhilA> ack cygri
12:21:51 <PhilA> cygri: This was all about vocab selection?
12:22:00 <olyerickson1> When I browse to the Vocab Selection wiki, it doesn't show me as logged in...even though I'm logged in
12:22:04 <PhilA> cygri: No, part 1 was selection and discover, part 2 was about management
12:22:31 <PhilA> s/cygri:/mhausenblas:/
12:22:59 <PhilA> mhausenblas: We said we want to provide a checklist, not a list of recommended vocabs
12:23:23 <mhausenblas> [[Vocabulary Selection. The group will provide advice on how governments should select RDF vocabulary terms (URIs), including advice as to when they should mint their own. This advice will take into account issues of stability, security, and long-term maintenance commitment, as well as other factors that may arise during the group's work.]
12:23:24 <PhilA> cygri: The charter doesn't mention vocab creation. It seems that we're stretching the charter
12:23:30 <sandro> "advice as to when they should mint their own"
12:23:36 <sandro> (but not *how*  :-)
12:24:12 <PhilA> cygri: So my preference would be to stop at the point where selection and discovery fails
12:24:22 <sandro> q?
12:24:23 <DaveReynolds> Exactly, don't try to give pointers to advice on vocabulary creation. There's lots out there already and doing a comprehensive enough job seems out of scope.
12:24:24 <sandro> q=
12:24:25 <sandro> q+
12:24:50 <bhyland> ‰q+
12:24:58 <bhyland> q?
12:25:01 <PhilA> mhausenblas: There aren't any established BPs for vocab creation, stuff like deprecating terms and so on.
12:25:03 <bhyland> q+
12:25:18 <PhilA> mhausenblas: If you don't talk about deprecation at all then people may think that it isn't possible
12:25:38 <DaveReynolds> So explicitly state what issues are NOT covered, but don't try to partially cover then through "informative" sections.
12:25:38 <PhilA> mhausenblas: But people should be aware of the issues around creation
12:26:26 <PhilA> mhausenblas: So I agree with cygri - but we should focus on selection and discovery but then include a paragraph talking about what the issues are?
12:26:36 <PhilA> cygri: The otehr things was stability, versioning etc.
12:27:06 <gatemezin> s/otehr/other
12:27:08 <PhilA> cygri: Is it worth breaking those out in the vocab selection? They get discussed in the BP document anyway so can we just refer to that?
12:27:14 <olyerickson> I think we need to make stakeholders aware (a) that vocab selection matters (b) that there are best practices for selecting vocabs, based on common usage (c) that custom creation is possible but should be deferred if prior existing vocabs exist (d) that long-turn "stability" of vocabularies may be a factor
12:27:35 <PhilA> sandro: I agree with what's being sai
12:27:41 <PhilA> s/sai/said/
12:27:57 <cygri> good point sandro
12:28:44 <cygri> sandro: when we say what consumers are looking for in a vocabulary, this also helps producers to understand what vocabulary consumers are looking for
12:28:54 <cygri> ... so it's discovery/selection/evaluation
12:29:42 <PhilA> q+
12:29:42 <olyerickson> We should provide guidance (or pointers) to "evaluation criteria" rather than specific evaluation criteria. Also, evaluation criteria (and ratings systems0 for vocabs are evolving
12:29:43 <cygri> mhausenblas: eager to capture experience of vocabulary maintainers, like danbri
12:29:47 <olyerickson> q?
12:30:10 <George> ack sandro 
12:30:14 <cygri> bhyland: creation of vocabularies should be a book of its own
12:30:15 <George> ack bhyland 
12:30:57 <cygri> ... better to restrict to selection criteria. pay attention to who maintains the vocabulary, is there a long-term maintenance plan in place etc
12:31:08 <George> ack
12:31:11 <George> ack PhilA 
12:31:31 <cygri> PhilA: i wrote stuff for the EC last year that covers much of what we just talked about. i'll contribute that
12:32:07 <PhilA> action: PhilA to reflect on SEMIC advice on vocab selection etc. to see if there is more to contribute to the BP doc
12:32:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Reflect on SEMIC advice on vocab selection etc. to see if there is more to contribute to the BP doc [on Phil Archer - due 2012-02-02].
12:32:13 <mhausenblas> https://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/actions/open
12:32:43 <bhyland> @Michael, et al, are we all agreed this is the main wiki page for Vocabulary discussion from which all other sub pages will be linked? See http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Vocabulary_Discussion_Summary
12:32:46 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about on how to use products (very quickly)
12:33:12 <cygri> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/dcat/index.html
12:33:22 <mhausenblas> Michael: Yes, bhyland, I think so
12:33:30 <bhyland> ta
12:33:40 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/products/2
12:33:52 <PhilA> I have linked the newly public Editors; draft from today's agenda
12:33:58 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary
12:34:25 <George> ack mhausenblas 
12:34:25 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about on how to use products (very quickly)
12:34:54 <cygri> cygri: we have a dcat editor's draft, updated list of dcat issues, and a stub wiki page for dcat on the gld wiki
12:35:08 <cygri> mhausenblas: we now have separate products for dcat, best practices, cube in the tracker
12:35:12 <bhyland> What is the list of "products" in Tracker for us to assign?
12:35:19 <cygri> ... so please assign new issues to the respective product
12:35:23 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld
12:35:25 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/products
12:35:41 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #Gld
12:36:38 <cygri> mhausenblas: when you create/edit an issue, there's a product dropdown
12:36:45 <cygri> ... i think you can't assign issues to products from IRC
12:36:47 <olyerickson> bhyland you can create in IRC then fine-tune in the hyperinterface
12:36:58 <George_> George_ has joined #gld
12:37:54 <cygri> topic: Standard Vocabularies
12:38:06 <olyerickson> PLEASE specify pages when we're talking about specific pages
12:38:11 <cygri> bhyland: there's a lengthy list of people here http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Vocabulary_Discussion_Summary#Vocabulary_5:_Geography.2C_Spatial_Information
12:38:56 <George> George has joined #gld
12:39:03 <cygri> ... whom do i chase?
12:39:16 <cygri> PhilA: for dcat, that's me, fadi, john, richard
12:39:27 <cygri> cygri: for data cube, we have a list from yesterday
12:39:48 <cygri> mhausenblas: looking at the charter, how do we break this down into specs?
12:39:51 <cygri> q+
12:40:15 <cygri> sandro: no umbrella spec necessary
12:40:28 <cygri> bhyland: we talked about it a bit yesterday
12:40:49 <DaveReynolds> Surely vocab guidance is in Best Practices document
12:40:55 <cygri> ... i think we might want to have an umbrella spec about selection etc
12:41:10 <cygri> sandro: the umbrella spec should be the Best Practices
12:41:26 <cygri> mhausenblas: so for each of the five areas in Standard Vocabularies, what do we do?
12:41:26 <olyerickson> What "5 points" where are we looking...
12:41:38 <cygri> olyerickson, look at the charter
12:41:56 <olyerickson> Okay thanks
12:42:01 <cygri> mhausenblas: charter, section 2.3
12:42:32 <cygri> ... metadata corresponds to dcat, statistical cube data to data cube, don't know about the rest
12:42:47 <mhausenblas> q?
12:42:51 <cygri> q-
12:43:15 <olyerickson> Thanks mhausenblas (just trying to make sure we have links with words like "these" ;) ) 
12:43:30 <cygri> PhilA: the work i'm currently �doing for the EC covers people, legal entities
12:43:43 <cygri> ... i'd like to put some energy into organization ontology
12:43:49 <mhausenblas> Michael: I'd be interested in learning from DaveReynolds  if he'd be willing to/interested to move ORG ontology into W3C (see 4. in section 2.3 of our charter)
12:43:53 <mhausenblas> q+
12:44:02 <mhausenblas> ack me
12:44:10 <DaveReynolds> ack me
12:44:46 <cygri> DaveReynolds: transferring into w3c namespace and w3c care would be good
12:44:55 <cygri> ... i can do very little work on that though
12:45:04 <cygri> ... it's completely public domain, so no ip issues
12:45:12 <cmusialek> I'd be interested in putting some energy into the organization ontology as well.
12:45:49 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Moving http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html into W3C namespace and consider it as addressing 4. of section 2.3 of our charter
12:45:59 <DaveReynolds> q+ to ask about timescales
12:46:02 <gatemezi> gatemezi has joined #gld
12:46:03 <cmusialek> Data.gov is interested in implementing an organization ontology for US govt entities in the short term
12:46:14 <mhausenblas> q?
12:46:35 <cygri> http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html
12:46:49 <PhilA> ack DanG
12:46:54 <PhilA> ack DaveReynolds
12:46:54 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to ask about timescales
12:47:28 <cygri> DaveReynolds: this ontology is aimed at generic re-usable concepts. so it has to be extended for particular used
12:47:34 <mhausenblas> q+ to clarify his proposal
12:47:37 <cygri> s/particular used/particular uses/
12:47:57 <cygri> ... so data.gov.uk had to extend it for UK gov use
12:48:05 <cygri> charter: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter
12:48:15 <cygri> DaveReynolds: what's the timescale?
12:48:18 <George> q?
12:48:26 <sandro> q+ to talk about http://schema.org/Organization
12:48:40 <DanG> DanG has left #gld
12:49:06 <olyerickson> Wonder if there are some good Data.gov datasets with org data that could be useful test cases
12:49:21 <cygri> charter says: FPWD in Dec 2011, LC Oct 2012, CR Dec 2012, PR Mar 2013, Rec Apr 2013
12:49:41 <cygri> PhilA: should be not much work given the pedigree and uptake of this work
12:49:42 <George> I used Site from Org to get to VCard:Address stuff
12:49:59 <mhausenblas> q?
12:50:18 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
12:50:30 <cmusialek> Cygri: where is the UK govt's ontology implemented? Do you have a link to share?
12:50:46 <cygri> cmusialek, that's a question for DaveReynolds 
12:50:51 <cygri> DaveReynolds: the issue is not the amount of time writing stuff; it's about public review, coordination etc
12:51:13 <cygri> ... ideally we could serialize this, make progress on the data cube first, then org etc
12:51:14 <sandro> DaveReynolds: I'd prefer to serialize this work, doing QB first.
12:51:23 <olyerickson> q?
12:51:23 <mhausenblas> ack me
12:51:24 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to clarify his proposal
12:51:25 <PhilA> ack mhausenblas
12:52:02 <cygri> mhausenblas: i disagree with serialization. we should send a signal soon, by doing FPWDs of whatever we have now
12:52:07 <George> +1 mhausenblas 
12:52:20 <cygri> ... so that the world sees: these are the things in our scope
12:52:46 <cygri> ... i agree that we can do serial focus once FPWDs are out
12:53:00 <cygri> ... we should get FPWDs out in a matter of weeks
12:53:06 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1 mhausenblas 
12:53:19 <cygri> bhyland: i agree
12:53:56 <dvilasuero> +1 mhausenblas
12:53:57 <sandro> q-
12:54:00 <George> cmusialek: see http://health.data.gov/doc/hospital/393303/site/1
12:54:02 <mhausenblas> q?
12:54:46 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Moving http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html into W3C namespace and consider it as addressing 4. of section 2.3 of our charter
12:54:51 <bhyland> +1
12:54:57 <George> +1
12:54:59 <BenediktKaempgen> +1
12:55:03 <gatemezi> +1
12:55:15 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
12:55:16 <DaveReynolds> +1
12:55:19 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to schema.org not being appropriate for this
12:55:26 <sandro> +1 (reconsider if we find any other viable options)
12:55:32 <boris> +1
12:55:33 <cygri> +1
12:55:35 <olyerickson> make what happen?
12:56:03 <olyerickson> q+
12:56:07 <olyerickson> q?
12:56:26 <cygri> RESOLUTION: Moving http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html into W3C namespace and consider it as addressing 4. of section 2.3 of our charter
12:56:28 <PhilA> action: PhilA to create W3C format of Org ontology specification document
12:56:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Create W3C format of Org ontology specification document [on Phil Archer - due 2012-02-02].
12:56:31 <George> ack olyerickson 
12:56:49 <bhyland> @Sandro - do we write APPROVED for the proposal to capture in minutes?
12:57:04 <cygri> olyerickson: we've done some work on schema.org extensions in other areas
12:57:11 <mhausenblas> q+ to note that we have not discussed 3. People of 2.3
12:57:15 <cygri> bhyland, we write RESOLUTION like i did
12:57:27 <bhyland> @PhilA - thanks!
12:58:07 <bhyland> @PhilA, I particulary like that due date: 2012-02-02 ;-)
12:58:07 <cygri> olyerickson: just because schema.org doesn't cover something right now, this doesn't mean we can't extend it
12:58:10 <sandro> bhyland, cygri did it fine, "RESOLUTION:" or "RESOLVED:" or "APPROVED:" should all work.
12:58:17 <bhyland> @sandro ta
12:58:37 <mhausenblas> Michael: Wondering if anyone fancies an action for cleaning up http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Vocabulary_Discussion_Summary and sync w/ today's resolution
12:58:38 <mhausenblas> q?
12:58:49 <cygri> topic: ADMS discussion
12:58:58 <mhausenblas> ack me
12:58:58 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to note that we have not discussed 3. People of 2.3
12:59:32 <cygri> scribenick: BenediktKaempgen 
12:59:51 <BenediktKaempgen> Topic: ADMS 
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13:00:48 <BenediktKaempgen> EU Commission, Asset Description Metadata Schema (ADMS)
13:00:56 <dvilasuero> I can take an action for cleaning up http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Vocabulary_Discussion_Summary
13:01:42 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: any wishes to rearrange agenda?
13:01:55 <olyerickson> FWIW: People interested in RPI's DCAT-driven Schema.org extension for Catalogs and Datasets can check out demo at: http://logd.tw.rpi.edu/schemaorg_dataset_extension
13:03:04 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Comment - hopes to make the most of the time
13:03:32 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Interoperable Solutions - big EU activity
13:04:13 <BenediktKaempgen> ... two strangs: ADMS, Section on Core Vocabularies
13:04:28 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Fadi, Gofran more on ADMS
13:05:10 <BenediktKaempgen> ... UML diagram in the wiki  - http://philarcher.org/isa/adms.png 
13:06:05 <BenediktKaempgen> ... describing meta data. Meeting in March: Using ADMS to interchange metadata.
13:06:55 <BenediktKaempgen> ... lots of similarities with dcat: repository, asset, release of asset (in particular format)
13:07:26 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
13:07:31 <BenediktKaempgen> GofranShukair: asset can be dataset but reusable one
13:08:17 <BenediktKaempgen> ... release (actual document representing asset)
13:08:30 <bhyland> @dvilasuero, thanks for cleaning up the vocab discussion summary page.  We made some good progress today and it would be great to reflect that as a status update on that page and link to all the links provided in IRC today.
13:08:38 <bhyland> ping
13:08:43 <BenediktKaempgen> ... asset, release have statuses (e.g., already published)
13:09:07 <bhyland> ping
13:09:36 <Zakim> +??P7
13:09:44 <DaveReynolds> zakim, ??P7 is me
13:09:44 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds; got it
13:09:54 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me
13:09:54 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted
13:09:56 <BenediktKaempgen> ... idea behind ADMS: semantic assets making reusable. E.g., asset metadata, federation (professionals can find assets)
13:09:58 <sandro> much better  :-)
13:10:18 <BenediktKaempgen> ... federation (explore, reuse of assets)
13:10:33 <PhilA> q?
13:10:42 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: model is actually in public review
13:10:54 <BenediktKaempgen> ... has well pedigree
13:11:00 <bhyland> @dvilasuero, thanks very much for tidying the vocab discussion summary page and reflecting what was discussed today.
13:11:03 <BenediktKaempgen> ... through ?
13:11:32 <bhyland> ping
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13:11:39 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to update http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Data_Cube_Vocabulary
13:11:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Update http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Data_Cube_Vocabulary [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-02-02].
13:12:18 <BenediktKaempgen> ... reuse of dcat repos, asset, relesase, lots of references to dcat, also to void, foaf
13:13:54 <BenediktKaempgen> ... issue of dcat: particular use of term/class, and we have ranges: it can be that we are making relationships that we are not allowed to make.
13:14:25 <BenediktKaempgen> ... wants to know whether this is of interest to US people
13:14:51 <BenediktKaempgen> ... published as XML, RDF...
13:15:36 <BenediktKaempgen> ... no problem to change example.org to w3c.org (TBL did not mind)
13:16:22 <BenediktKaempgen> ... EU has concerns, e.g., about stability (change control)
13:17:02 <BenediktKaempgen> ... politicians probably will have concerns.
13:18:06 <cmusialek> q+
13:18:13 <BenediktKaempgen> sandro: Probably, it would be easier for US standards
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13:18:45 <sandro> (that wasn't sandro, BenediktKaempgen...  didn't catch who it was.)
13:18:54 <BenediktKaempgen> then it was george
13:19:05 <BenediktKaempgen> I mix you often ;-)
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13:19:06 <sandro> s/sandro:/george:/
13:19:52 <BenediktKaempgen> ?: Interested.
13:20:05 <rreck1> yeah i wanted google+ yesterday
13:20:39 <George> US Gov agency adoption of ADMS will be greatly facilitated by having ADMS namespace be provided by a 'voluntary consensus standards organization' (of which W3 is an important one)
13:21:13 <gatemezi> s/?/cmusialek
13:22:04 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Will be elaborating on relationship to dublin core. 
13:22:10 <BenediktKaempgen> ... later this day.
13:23:03 <BenediktKaempgen> ... e.g., will inferencing change concepts that are linked by ADMS.
13:23:04 <DaveReynolds> Technically correct practice is to use OWL restrictions :)
13:23:48 <George> +1 DaveReynolds 
13:23:51 <BenediktKaempgen> s\void\dublin core
13:25:01 <BenediktKaempgen> s/void/dublin core
13:25:29 <olyerickson> Arghh my tax dollars at work
13:25:44 <sandro> can someone in washington try g+ on their laptop, to see if it sticks to port 80 or something?
13:26:11 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Second section: Core vocabularies.
13:26:43 <BenediktKaempgen> ... EU Commission wants to recommends vocabulary to be used cross-country; possible to specialize.
13:26:45 <rreck1> noone here is willing to try
13:27:43 <BenediktKaempgen> ... based upon lots of resources: First core vocabularies: person, business, location
13:27:50 <cygri> http://philarcher.org/isa/corevocs.png
13:27:51 <olyerickson> Link please
13:27:53 <olyerickson> thanks
13:28:50 <BenediktKaempgen> ... background: experts on vocabularies, Euro justice, business registrars, INSPIRE directive secretar (environmental data)
13:29:13 <BenediktKaempgen> ... all three things are interlinked.
13:29:39 <DaveReynolds> ISADate?
13:30:04 <BenediktKaempgen> ... properties should be familiar. No relationships between persons. Only most important features. 
13:30:09 <Zakim> -HadleyBeeman
13:30:41 <BenediktKaempgen> ... without reference to other vocabs, but implicit references should be obvious (e.g., foaf)
13:31:01 <stasinos> Greek too
13:31:16 <BenediktKaempgen> ... cultural differences covered e.g., patronymic Name
13:32:07 <BenediktKaempgen> ... dates raise big problem: 
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13:32:17 <bhyland> ping
13:32:25 <BenediktKaempgen> ... many people do not know their birthdate or place
13:32:25 <sandro> pong
13:33:10 <BenediktKaempgen> ... recording dates: most dates in public databases not clearly defined
13:33:30 <BenediktKaempgen> ... to represent those, raises big issues.
13:34:28 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Cleaning would sometimes even make dates inaccurate (e.g., from August 1984 to midnight 1. August 1984)
13:34:34 <olyerickson> PhilA: If you know dat, use xsd:date
13:35:36 <olyerickson> ...if you can't type to xsd: date, use a literal with whatever you have
13:35:38 <sandro> sigh.       what a pain.    not sure if there's a better solution.
13:35:38 <rreck1> sounds like  a sane approach
13:36:04 <cygri> i'd prefer xsd:gYear or xsd:gYearMonth over w3cdtf
13:36:11 <BenediktKaempgen> ... actual recommendation would be to represent the date depending on the situation (e.g., representing parts separately).
13:36:13 <DaveReynolds> Yes, there is a difference between date and datetime.  Much gov data is actually about intervals, not dateTime points, hence the UK reference time service for time intervals.  
13:36:45 <sandro> I'd be inclined to use different properties, I think.       one if you know it, one for a comment, especially if you dont know the actual value.
13:37:00 <olyerickson> @sandro @cygri Our guys have suggested xsd: date then xsd: g* for date parts that are known
13:37:05 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Next businesses: also issues to represent legal entities
13:37:27 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Legal entities must have a legal identifier (registrar).
13:37:40 <DaveReynolds> +1 to sandro, semantics are different if you are giving constraint or hints instead of value, so use different property
13:37:47 <BenediktKaempgen> ... eg.., tax registration
13:38:33 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Therfore identifier as an own class. Person: People have identifiers, also.
13:38:54 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Diagram: http://philarcher.org/isa/corevocs.png 
13:39:25 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Dbpedia is used for location. 
13:40:01 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Address is also difficult: In the end we use dcat.
13:40:12 <cygri> s/we use dcat/we use vcard/
13:40:15 <olyerickson> PhilA: Address gets all the attention, in the end we use vcard
13:40:16 <BenediktKaempgen> s/dcat/vcat
13:40:24 <DeirdreLee> q?
13:40:31 <DeirdreLee> q+
13:40:33 <BenediktKaempgen> thanks cygri, you were faster
13:40:36 <olyerickson> ... "addresses are a mine field"
13:40:51 <olyerickson> ...none of these things record change
13:41:04 <olyerickson> ...everything can change, we don't know how to do it
13:41:05 <BenediktKaempgen> ... recognize need to record changes
13:41:21 <cygri> ack cmusialek 
13:41:26 <cygri> ack DeirdreLee 
13:41:35 <olyerickson> ..."more research is necessary" (it is left as an exercise ;) )
13:42:16 <BenediktKaempgen> DeirdreLee: INSPIRE is complex, but this is their standard, how to resolve issues with relationship with INSPIRE and vcard.
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13:42:34 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: INSPIRE and vcard do not much diverge. 
13:42:51 <DanG> DanG has left #gld
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13:43:17 <olyerickson> PhilA: INSPIRE directive has legal force
13:43:24 <olyerickson> ..."you shall use it..."
13:43:33 <BenediktKaempgen> ... will make sure to make proper reference.
13:43:46 <olyerickson> ...usage guidelines will specify how "they" map
13:44:15 <olyerickson> george: Instance examples...illustrating mapping?
13:44:22 <BenediktKaempgen> george: examples available for mapping to recommended vocabs
13:44:32 <olyerickson> PhilA: usage guiamplesdelines will include instance data/ex
13:45:12 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: does effort match to things you do in the US
13:46:00 <BenediktKaempgen> DanG: Recommends to look at something. Will give link.
13:46:43 <George> ISO 19773
13:46:45 <PhilA> 19773 ISO
13:47:28 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Only small amount of uri's needed to be minted in Core Vocabs.
13:47:33 <DaveReynolds> Doesn't seem to be free: http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=41769
13:47:53 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: title for vocab diagram?
13:48:30 <Zakim> -stasinos
13:48:51 <HadleyBeeman> q+
13:49:02 <PhilA> ack had
13:49:07 <olyerickson> + to "Thanks PhilA"
13:49:09 <GofranShukair> this MDR standard is only relted to schemas 
13:49:26 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman
13:49:44 <HadleyBeeman> sorry — google plus is failing me
13:49:50 <bhyland> Title for the model Phil described "ISA Core Vocabulary Combined Conceptual Model"
13:50:03 <HadleyBeeman> I just wanted to know if member state representation has been… representtative.  Are you happy with what you have?
13:50:16 <HadleyBeeman> Ahhh… no wonder.  I've signed off from Zakim's telecon
13:50:57 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: some but not enough member state representations.
13:51:27 <HadleyBeeman> Fair enough, PhilA.  I was just wondering about status on that.  Thanks
13:51:28 <George> q?
13:51:45 <BenediktKaempgen> ... is difficult to get them involved. Talking to various folks. Open to recommendations to whom they should be talking to.
13:52:37 <DanG> Link to ISO/IEC 19773 is http://webstore.iec.ch/preview/info_isoiec19773%7Bed1.0%7Den.pdf
13:52:55 <DanG> Let me know if this doesn't work.
13:54:23 <olyerickson> WAIT
13:54:24 <BenediktKaempgen> Topic: Procurement use cases.
13:54:58 <olyerickson> is DERI on break
13:54:58 <olyerickson> or just Michael?
13:55:24 <BenediktKaempgen> MichaelPendleton: Issues, e.g., scope: guidance to people that needs to make that procurment happen (e.g., contract officers). Could be broader, also.
13:55:47 <BenediktKaempgen> ... some text available but can be improved upon.
13:56:41 <BenediktKaempgen> ... community directory part will be talked about later.
13:56:55 <olyerickson> Point of order: could we please provide links before commencing with presos? 
13:57:11 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Slides: http://www.slideshare.net/michaelpendleton1/best-practices-procurement-of-linked-data-services
13:58:15 <sandro> olyerickson, the link is in the agenda
13:58:24 <BenediktKaempgen> ... possible questions regarding procurement, e.g., connection to community directory.
13:58:34 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Should scope be broader?
13:59:02 <PhilA> q+
13:59:12 <PhilA> ack me
14:00:04 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: So many ways where procurement is relevant (not only for government).
14:00:28 <BenediktKaempgen> ... How to know about own or external expertise?
14:01:34 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: Institutions need to know what is different in publishing Linked Data from publishing content on the web of documents (which they are doing for a long time already).
14:02:28 <olyerickson> bhyland: "let me help you with some collateral et.al. to get you up-to-speed on different types of services"
14:02:59 <olyerickson> phila: heard a comment, it all sounds terribly US/UK
14:03:04 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Regarding, internationalizing it. UK is interested in it.
14:03:33 <olyerickson> ...UK public consultation coming up "soon"
14:03:40 <BenediktKaempgen> ... UK wants to include open standards in their procurement process
14:03:51 <HadleyBeeman> Just to add:
14:03:55 <BenediktKaempgen> ... but first they need to know what standard
14:03:55 <olyerickson> ...to define what an "open standard" is
14:04:34 <olyerickson> bhyland: need other resources besides John Sheridan 
14:04:37 <HadleyBeeman> the reason that this is a big deal NOW is that Cabinet Office now hava new centralised control over procurement— so the outcomes of this consultation can be rolled out to new effectiveness
14:04:44 <HadleyBeeman> I'm here— need to restart G+
14:04:46 <HadleyBeeman> be right back
14:05:07 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: not got john sherridan involved, yet.
14:05:31 <olyerickson> PhilA: Hadley is the best "line of action"
14:06:15 <HadleyBeeman> I'm back now…  Can I help?
14:06:40 <BenediktKaempgen> ... can ask around but does not have a specific person in mind.
14:07:01 <DaveReynolds> Question (since I can't use audio): Is it necessary to have the procurement checklist?  Having a model of types of services makes sense. The checklist though seems to be based on a lot of assumptions which aren't universal.
14:07:14 <HadleyBeeman> Thaaaaaanks Bernadette
14:07:44 <DaveReynolds> Not convinced W3C should be advising on procurement principles.
14:08:21 <sandro> DaveReynolds, not principles, just products.      
14:08:30 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: glossaries part of recommendation?
14:08:31 <cygri> +1 for glossary
14:08:40 <PhilA> W3C Glossary http://www.w3.org/2003/glossary/
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14:09:23 <DaveReynolds> sandro: the principles of technology are OK but principles for *procurement*, NO!
14:09:31 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Not sure whether W3C glossary is still maintained.
14:09:50 <sandro> DaveReynolds, agreed, absolutely.
14:10:16 <DaveReynolds> sandro: so do you agree with having the current material from the wiki on a rec?
14:10:23 <bhyland> ping
14:10:38 <BenediktKaempgen> sure, nP
14:11:16 <BenediktKaempgen> sandro: does not understand procurement
14:11:37 <sandro> george: it's about defining what we're procuding.    Defining buying a "linked data server", like they buy a "database server"
14:11:48 <sandro> george: Procurement officers want a checklist.
14:11:50 <BenediktKaempgen> george: what does it mean to provide a Linked Data server?
14:12:00 <DaveReynolds> Much of current checklist is not that LInked Data specific
14:12:05 <sandro> s/procuding/procuring/
14:12:19 <PhilA> Having looked, it seems that the W3C glossary is no longer an option. Neither, at present, is the cheat sheet (http://www.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/) as to get the data in there is quite a hurdle and I'm not sure it's the best medium anyway so, scrub that idea
14:12:26 <DaveReynolds> Agree with importance, VERY worried about unintended consequences
14:12:44 <olyerickson> Nothing from me; I am relatively clueless on 'procurement"
14:13:02 <BenediktKaempgen> who creates the action item?
14:13:23 <George> would be very interested in how you're imagining or examples of unintended consequences DaveReynolds 
14:13:30 <PhilA> q+
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14:14:15 <PhilA> ack me
14:15:12 <bhyland> Summary of Procurement Topic: We need to get from point A to point B... what are the barriers to remove and allow the technical officer to get LOD to the public.
14:15:21 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Recommends to use the wiki for glossary.
14:15:37 <olyerickson> PhilA: rec'd "nice page on the wiki"
14:16:17 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: takes action to create glossary for best practice document
14:16:40 <olyerickson> bhyland: it's 9:16
14:16:45 <PhilA> action: bhyland to gather terms for a Glossary section in the BP document, then link that static list to the live wiki page where these will be repeated and updated over time
14:16:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Gather terms for a Glossary section in the BP document, then link that static list to the live wiki page where these will be repeated and updated over time [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-02].
14:16:47 <BenediktKaempgen> Does someone want to scribe?
14:16:50 <GeraldSteeman> *Far out
14:17:06 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
14:17:07 <BenediktKaempgen> Topic: Stability
14:17:14 <PhilA> scribe PhilA
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14:17:23 <BenediktKaempgen> Thanks, Phil.
14:17:35 <PhilA> rreck: Introduces himself
14:18:27 <olyerickson> DC: Lots of noise...
14:19:00 <PhilA> rreck: What could influence the stability of LOD?
14:19:14 <PhilA> rreck: If the info is extremely valuable, it will last a long time
14:19:29 <olyerickson> What are we looking at?
14:19:44 <annew> slides are linked on the F2F page
14:19:46 <olyerickson> Links please before we start presos!!!!
14:19:56 <annew> http://iama.rrecktek.com/html/sites/iama.rrecktek.com/files/Data_Properties.pdf
14:20:01 <PhilA> rreck: is talking through http://iama.rrecktek.com/html/sites/iama.rrecktek.com/files/Data_Properties.pdf
14:20:24 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas, can you invite me to the cool kids?
14:20:26 <annew> second part of stability presentation will be http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/0/06/W3C-Washington2012_F2F2.pdf
14:20:44 <DaveReynolds> George: examples include "government approved contract vehicle" which tend to be biased towards large companies, "interface to load data" which encourages a batch/static mindset instead of live integration, "Is the vendor or provider an active contributor to Standards groups" which again biases towards large companies.
14:21:48 <BenediktKaempgen> I thought I had invited to one of my circles.
14:21:51 <olyerickson> @annew yes but it is hard to juggle...we need "we're now looking at..."
14:21:51 <George> thnx DaveReynolds understood
14:22:16 <annew> understood olyerickson
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14:24:05 <PhilA> I'm not scribing this as rreck's slides are a good record
14:24:12 <PhilA> q+
14:24:37 <bhyland> Should HTTP URIs and attention to proper MIME types by the Linked Data client manage all this correctly?
14:25:11 <bhyland> q+
14:25:13 <PhilA> ack me
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14:25:56 <PhilA> PhilA: Pointing out that recommending not to use diacritic characters is not an internationally acceptable recommendation.
14:26:26 <dvilasuero> +1 PhilA
14:27:05 <PhilA> bhyland: Not sure whether this is relevant to the Gov Linked data WG - it's more generic and not specific to LD
14:27:20 <bhyland> ack me
14:27:20 <PhilA> q- bhyland
14:27:24 <George> q?
14:27:28 <olyerickson> q+
14:27:31 <olyerickson> q?
14:27:44 <PhilA> sandro: I share bhyland's thoughts
14:27:51 <olyerickson> pop me from queue
14:28:07 <George> sandro: stability here is about URI stability
14:28:07 <HadleyBeeman> ack olyrerickson
14:28:12 <PhilA> sandro: not sure the archive format is relevant. What is relevant in this space is URI persistence
14:28:22 <bhyland> Sandro:Stability is about maintaining persistent of a link, over time, that is the problem we are trying to solve.
14:28:25 <PhilA> PhilA: +1 - that's what I thought this session would be on
14:28:26 <DanG> q+
14:28:34 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
14:29:04 <PhilA> olyerickson: I wanted to disagree slightly with the point just taken
14:29:19 <PhilA> olyerickson: This touches on one of the conversations that we had yesterday
14:29:44 <olyerickson> pop me from queue
14:29:50 <bhyland> Olyerickson: Disagrees slightly.  Some of this touches on yesterday's conversation re: using good data management practices, but we should provide treatment of LOD differences.
14:30:06 <PhilA> olyerickson: It doesn't hurt to say that stakeholders should be using good data management lifecycle practices and then say that there are specific issues wrt LD that may not otherwise be obvious
14:31:00 <bhyland> ... The issue of different archive files is a problem RPI deals with daily.  GB sized datafiles for download are non-trivial problems that we deal with somewhat uniquely within the LOD community.
14:31:37 <George> q?
14:31:43 <PhilA> ack danG
14:31:52 <PhilA> DanG: I think I agree with olyerickson
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14:31:57 <olyerickson> The last speaker was me ;) 
14:32:27 <sandro> yeah, but we don't have the expertise/right to speak to data in general.....
14:32:30 <PhilA> DanG: Some of these recommendations are general and not specific to LD but they are specific to data and much of what is going to be said does still matter
14:32:39 <George> ack DanG 
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14:32:47 <olyerickson> My point was there are *some* practices that are indeed unique to Linked Data
14:32:56 <George> +1 sandro
14:33:09 <George> q?
14:33:16 <HadleyBeeman> Are there other, more general W3C practices for data management that we can take in reference?
14:33:46 <sandro> mhausenblas, yeah, I haven't been working on that this morning.
14:33:55 <olyerickson> ...a provider can't trivially choose between formats they make available, etc...
14:34:14 <PhilA> bhyland: Suggest that we deal with - recognising that when you put data out ...
14:34:42 <PhilA> sandro: When i use RDF I refer to other people's URIs and I need some confidence in their management or my stuff will break
14:34:56 <PhilA> annew: That's part of the stability issue
14:35:30 <PhilA> bhyland: The other is dealing with very large file sizes. 
14:35:47 <PhilA> bh: People don't download to their laptopns they work with them in the cloud
14:36:01 <PhilA> s/laptopns/laptops/
14:36:40 <olyerickson> @sandro I think I see the point --- hard for me to articulate, but this isn't about back-end stability, more about keeping the Web of Data stable
14:36:43 <annew> good question Hadley
14:36:49 <George> q?
14:37:10 <PhilA> Mike_Pendleton: I'm happy to go back and make some revisions based on this interesting discussion
14:37:40 <George> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/0/06/W3C-Washington2012_F2F2.pdf
14:38:06 <PhilA> annew: Talking through http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/0/06/W3C-Washington2012_F2F2.pdf
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14:38:23 <bhyland> Summary of this topic (stability): 1) Stability is about maintaining persistent of a link, over time, that is the problem we are trying to solve. 2) Dealing with large file sizes.
14:39:03 <bhyland> Topic: Stability (continued) by AnneW
14:39:15 <sandro> (Great, this stuff looks more in line with what I was expecting.... )
14:39:46 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #gld
14:39:47 <bhyland> +1
14:40:27 <bhyland> AnneW: Best practices for Stability is all about "Making data available in perpetuity, persistently archived if necessary."
14:40:48 <bhyland> ... It is predictable, follows a logical format.
14:41:08 <bhyland> ... It is Externally visible and has stable consistent locations
14:41:24 <Zakim> +sandro.a
14:41:32 <Zakim> -sandro
14:41:43 <bhyland> ... provides a Legacy - uses earlier naming schemes, formats, data storage devices
14:42:26 <bhyland> ... Has stewards, someone needs to take responsibility - people are committed to consistently maintain specific datasets
14:42:26 <George> q?
14:43:06 <olyerickson> annew hadleybeeman was that "We have to have the Ability for Stability?"
14:43:13 <bhyland> ... If this is tied to support of a business unit, or legislative function, that is key.
14:43:28 <HadleyBeeman> Yep, olyerickson.  That's the one. /cc annew
14:44:07 <bhyland> Contact and data consistency are related to success.  Consistent infrastructure,  and separation of internal politics and external stability.
14:44:46 <PhilA> q+ to highlight persistence WS http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/dnap-workshop/notes.html
14:44:50 <bhyland> .... It is a good to have a data "last will & testament" to ensure your wishes are maintained in perpetuity.
14:45:24 <olyerickson> The problem that estates have is that even if they are 'required' to persist (by policy or statute) they still might not b sustainable (no unfunded mandates)
14:45:35 <bhyland> ... I don't know what model we're going to recommend yet, but there are some for consideration.
14:45:50 <olyerickson> q+
14:45:59 <bhyland> Some models for stability include: Estate, Archives, Private Foundation, Government stewards, Internet organizations
14:46:56 <Yigal> q+
14:47:14 <cygri> q+ to comment on preservation of content vs preservation of access
14:47:53 <bhyland> Key concepts around interconnections. These are  sources that establish a context for the production and/or use of an artifact. W3C Provenance.  There are mechanims for persistence.  Some are PURLs, handles.
14:48:12 <George> q?
14:48:21 <bhyland> Key considerations: Preservation of Content,  Preservation of Access, Conservation of media
14:49:10 <bhyland> ... Other considerations include how long term is long term? 2 years, 10 years, forever?  Organizations need to consider this.
14:49:13 <bhyland> q?
14:49:17 <annew> Rock on 8 track tapes!
14:49:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:49:43 <PhilA> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/0/06/W3C-Washington2012_F2F2.pdf
14:49:51 <PhilA> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/0/06/W3C-Washington2012_F2F2.pdf
14:50:08 <PhilA> Let me try again http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/dnap-workshop/notes.html
14:50:13 <annew> chia ching!
14:51:05 <bhyland> Questions: PhilA mentioned workshop held earlier this month.  Longevity differs depending on who you are speaking to.  For example, a librarian things in centuries.
14:51:17 <cygri> .cz has been gone *twice*
14:51:26 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: we were reminded this weekend that the average life span of a government department in the UK is 5.5 years.
14:51:30 <bhyland> Various level domains have disappeared due to geographic boundaries changing, including countries.  
14:51:37 <HadleyBeeman> Big implications for URI persistence/stability
14:52:01 <bhyland> ... Agreement with an institution in advance.  For example, if W3.org goes away, then MIT.edu will pick it up.
14:52:54 <olyerickson> RE "one of the registrars, it may have been someone from CNRI (representing Handles) or crossref (representing DOIs, based on Handles)
14:52:55 <Cory> Cory has joined #gld
14:53:03 <bhyland> ... Top level domain for .arpa, only available if you have an RFC (Request for Comment).  If you coordinate with IETC, you can get a .arpa domain.
14:53:27 <bhyland> .... someone suggested W3C should have w3.arpa, it is so important.
14:53:51 <annew> 8 track = google +
14:53:59 <bhyland> ... DNS has been around for many decades, even longer than 8-track cartridges (which the cool kids know prevailed as a better technology solution)
14:54:07 <George> q?
14:54:15 <George> 'for the life of the republic'
14:54:19 <bhyland> s/know prevailed/know should have prevailed/
14:54:22 <PhilA> ack me
14:54:22 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to highlight persistence WS http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/dnap-workshop/notes.html
14:55:03 <PhilA> olyerickson: Thanks annew for the talk.
14:55:13 <PhilA> olyerickson: I was involved in the handle.DOI discussion
14:55:24 <olyerickson> q?
14:55:31 <bhyland> olyerickson: Thanks to AnneW for a very comprehensive talk that highlights her library science expertise/perspective.
14:55:39 <PhilA> olyerickson: When people set up institutional archives, a concern has been around what naming structure to use
14:56:24 <bhyland> ... Handles system - single source is a concern.  What if CNRI went out of business, or Bob Kahn got hit by a bus. 
14:56:52 <annew> DOI = Digital Object Identifier. A consortium of publishers created for commercial handles
14:57:04 <bhyland> ... people were concerned about (one or two) publishers backing DOIs ... too much central control.
14:57:36 <bhyland> ... Believes our WG's recommendations should help people make decisions.
14:57:47 <annew> handles  http://handle.net from CNRI
14:57:53 <bhyland> ... PURLs infrastructure mentioned.
14:57:59 <bhyland> q?
14:58:03 <bhyland> bhyland
14:58:07 <bhyland> q+
14:58:11 <olyerickson> q-
14:58:21 <PhilA> ack Yigal
14:59:11 <olyerickson> I think Web of Data (and persistence of links) adds new meaning to "preservation"
14:59:13 <bhyland> Yigal: NSF had a research program circa 2005 that looked into preservation of data.  I remember a few things of note: 1) in order for things to be preserved, you must retain *interest* in the data.  Maintenance of electronic data requires "care and feeding", a continued expense.
14:59:25 <olyerickson> ...continuity of access <-> stability
14:59:25 <bhyland> ... if there is no perceived interest, these things will not be made available.
14:59:40 <cygri> very good point - data won't survive loss of interest
14:59:52 <bhyland> @GeraldSteeman - can you chime in here about STI?? NASA's work???
15:00:20 <PhilA> PhilA: Notes that W3C does not print its Recs. I believe that the IETF does print its RFCs
15:00:28 <bhyland> q?
15:00:30 <Cory> I doubt storing paper is cheaper! 
15:00:40 <annew> storing paper is different than migrating data.
15:01:02 <annew> migrating data required continuous activity and pruning and consideration
15:01:14 <annew> :-)
15:01:30 <bhyland> GeraldSteeman: Pressure within scientific & technical information community to digitize and provide guidance on longevity, access and of course, persistence.
15:01:44 <bhyland> ... If there is no interest, is there no value?
15:02:01 <bhyland> ... perceived value may change over time.  Interest may change over time.
15:02:59 <annew> and the first electronic census is lost
15:03:02 <bhyland> DanG: shares the story about the circa 1960's data on some tape format that cannot be read.  The 9 track tape readers have all gone to the dump and cannot get at the data.
15:03:19 <HadleyBeeman> That's really sad
15:03:19 <George> George has joined #gld
15:03:27 <George> q?
15:03:29 <bhyland> ... census data from 1960's data is lost while we have paper based records from the 19th centry that persisted.
15:03:36 <PhilA> q+ lunch
15:03:37 <annew> this is the danger of going electronic without considering the long term storage of it.
15:03:46 <PhilA> ack cygri
15:03:46 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to comment on preservation of content vs preservation of access
15:04:05 <PhilA> cygri: There was a question about the disctinction between persistence of content and access
15:04:20 <PhilA> cygri: not sure where the draw the line between the 2
15:04:30 <bhyland> Cygri: persistence of access and content ... where do you draw the line.
15:04:37 <PhilA> cygri: I create a bunch of files with the RDF and structure to support it
15:04:57 <olyerickson> cygri: where to draw the line, persistence of data/persistence(??) of access
15:04:58 <PhilA> cygri: Once the content that I set up no longer dereference, a big part of it has been lost
15:05:00 <Yigal> s/19th/18th
15:05:04 <bhyland> ... for content to persistent because someone has a copy of these files.  But once the URIs don't de-reference any more, the value has been lost.  
15:05:17 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to cygri's point that we need to preserve access, in addition to the content itself.  Preserved content that no one can access isn't useful.
15:05:56 <annew> olyerickson... you just aren't cool ;-)
15:06:07 <PhilA> bhyland: Tries not to get into the nit picking between URI and URL. After lucnh we'll have a session on HttpRange14
15:06:13 <bhyland> Thus preserviing the value of URIs is very important, URIs must remain resolvable (agreed to not open URI vs URL discussion here ...).
15:06:27 <PhilA> cygri: The 2nd question concerns the stages that might kill the stability of deployed data
15:06:29 <bhyland> We can say there are staged events to help stability of deployed content ...
15:06:47 <PhilA> cygri: Can the thing outlibe the individual who set it up departing the organisation?
15:06:54 <olyerickson> HadleyBeeman, the point the Handle/DOI community has made for years is that having "persistent IDs" in the infrastructure is useless if there is no commitment to maintain continuity of access
15:06:55 <PhilA> s/outlibe/outlive/
15:06:56 <bhyland> 1) Can the data outlive the steward.  Someone leaves and can their organization be a good steward?
15:07:10 <olyerickson> ...and that requires back-end maintenance etc
15:07:16 <PhilA> cygri: Can it outlive the death of DNS? Western civilisation?
15:07:26 <bhyland> 2) Can it outlive the DNS and death of Western Civilization as we know it on the Internet?
15:07:56 <bhyland> ... Of course DNS has been stable for some decades, but change happens.  
15:08:10 <PhilA> cygri: Individuals leave all the time, but DNS seems pretty stable for now
15:09:37 <annew> zen philosophy... zen and the art of rdf maintainence
15:09:38 <bhyland> ... It would be good to include advice on moving top level domains, and there are strategies for handling this.  We should provide guidance on this.  
15:09:53 <bhyland> ... Mention there are costs associated with URIs.
15:10:04 <George> q?
15:10:08 <bhyland> AnneW: It is about a stability of infrastructure that we're talking about.
15:10:22 <olyerickson> annew: it's "stability of infrastructure' we're talking about
15:10:42 <PhilA> annew: I'll take the point about accepting that it's about managing change, not working to avoid it altogether
15:10:46 <bhyland> AnneW: I'll fold in guidance on gracefully handling change ... save the end of Western Civilization or the entire economy changes ...
15:10:49 <PhilA> ack sandro
15:10:55 <olyerickson> ...we need to bound conversation (no questions about economy collapsing, etc)
15:11:04 <PhilA> sandro: has said a lot of what I wanted to say
15:11:20 <GeraldSteeman> q+
15:11:28 <bhyland> Sandro:  I think this WG needs to be concerned about keeping a given URL working.  
15:11:30 <olyerickson> sandro: this group needs to be concerned about "keeping that URL working"
15:11:35 <cygri> +1 sandro
15:11:38 <PhilA> sandro: The idea that some copy of the data survives somewhere is separate. What we need to focus on keeping the URL live
15:12:05 <cygri> q+ to mention danbri's law
15:12:10 <olyerickson> ...Need new second-level domain for any new "project" that needs to persist
15:12:12 <PhilA> sandro: Every time you have a new project, set up a new domain that can be moved from person to person, organisation to organisation without any change
15:12:22 <bhyland> ... everytime I hear this conversation, I think stability will be assured by assigning a new atomic, unique top level domain.  I know this is not a consensus position.
15:12:43 <olyerickson> ...not a consensus, but to be considered
15:13:05 <bhyland> For example, thing1.org, thing2.org.
15:13:10 <olyerickson> ...Domains that can move and have their own "life"
15:13:14 <annew> +1 .data
15:13:57 <George> q?
15:14:03 <PhilA> ack bhyland
15:14:19 <PhilA> I want to see if people have strong feelings on purls?
15:14:21 <olyerickson> bhyland: want's to here if people have strong opinions on esp PURLs
15:14:45 <PhilA> bhyland: It was news to me that the LoC is using handles/DOIs and not just pruls
15:14:50 <PhilA> s/pruls/purls
15:15:06 <bhyland> AnneW: For FDSys, all the new documents are handles not PURLs.
15:15:21 <PhilA> annew: basically new stuff is being given handles, purls are seen as old system although is maintained
15:15:55 <PhilA> sandro: Speaks against the use of PURLs
15:16:11 <PhilA> sandro: They may be a necessary evil but they add another point of failure
15:16:26 <annew> PURLS tradmarked =  (Persistent Uniform Resource Locators) http://purl.oclc.org
15:16:29 <PhilA> sandro: If you can't get your own domain name, you have your own problems...
15:16:35 <olyerickson> ...Note that Handle System is parallel to DNS, not dependent on it. 
15:16:38 <cygri> i like purls.
15:16:47 <annew> i like pearls...
15:16:50 <PhilA> PhilA: Notes that bhyland has a business that sells PURLZ servers
15:17:11 <PhilA> PhilA: There is a difference between PURLs and purl.org
15:17:22 <PhilA> ack GeraldSteeman
15:17:24 <olyerickson> 90% of Handle System use is through rpoxies, but HDL infrastructure is independent 
15:17:36 <olyerickson> s/rprox/prox/
15:17:49 <PhilA> GeraldSteeman: I wanted to agree with sandro on the pre-PURL discussion
15:17:51 <olyerickson> s/rpox/prox/
15:18:11 <annew> Government Printing Office GPO http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/
15:18:11 <PhilA> GeraldSteeman: If it can live on its own then its value can be passed from one person to another
15:18:29 <bhyland> @PhilA, note, I don't have a business that sells PURLs servers.  PURLs is a FLOSS project.  I run a company that provides commercial support for a given instance of a production server running PURLs by the US GPO.  
15:18:38 <PhilA> GeraldSteeman: The US has an 'official record' and gov officials are bound to submit it to the national archives so that there is an archived version of that info
15:19:10 <PhilA> s/Notes that bhyland has a business that sells PURLZ servers//
15:19:25 <bhyland> It is the difference between a company running a production Apache server for a customer and the Apache Project.  We are not the PURLs project, just a user of it :-)
15:19:34 <PhilA> ack cygri
15:19:35 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention danbri's law
15:19:40 <cygri> danbri's rule: "Rule of thumb - when wondering what info to include in a namespace URI, ... try to leave *out* as much as possible"
15:19:41 <annew> The items printed by the GPO, official record, can be accessed through handle technology
15:19:55 <PhilA> cygri: I wanted to say +1 to sandro's point about getting a new domain for a project
15:20:30 <bhyland> Cygri: Danbri's advice is 'leave it out if possible', any thing that can change should be left out if possible.
15:20:44 <PhilA> cygri: schema.org URIs are short, easy to remember and a good example
15:20:47 <PhilA> q+
15:20:51 <PhilA> q-
15:20:53 <mhausenblas> ack lunch
15:20:56 <George> q?
15:21:16 <annew> Lunch is HUNGRY
15:21:24 <Zakim> -sandro
15:21:34 <HadleyBeeman> calendar says 1.5 hours
15:21:40 <annew> Thanks all for a great discussion
15:21:49 <HadleyBeeman> so— 1 hour?
15:21:55 <mhausenblas> reconvene at 11:15 and 4:15
15:21:56 <olyerickson> What was the question? 
15:21:57 <cygri> thank you annew!
15:21:58 <t_gheen> \quit
15:22:01 <HadleyBeeman> bye
15:22:06 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute galway
15:22:07 <Zakim> galway should now be muted
15:22:25 <Zakim> -t_gheen
15:35:19 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman
15:42:13 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD
15:47:16 <mhausenblas> q+ to suggest a timeline for FPWD 9 Feb and 23 Feb
15:47:18 <mhausenblas> q?
15:48:40 <olyerickson> mhausenblas I lost your G+ audio...
15:53:41 <mhausenblas> Michael: The latest ED of the BP document is now available via https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/a1cb0d2a8fc9/bp/index.html
16:03:39 <Zakim> +sandro
16:06:23 <boris> boris has joined #gld
16:10:48 <olyerickson> whoa, that was noisy...
16:14:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, unmute galway
16:14:35 <Zakim> galway should no longer be muted
16:21:30 <mhausenblas> Galway's ready
16:21:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:21:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see sandro, galway, olyerickson, Washington, [IPcaller]
16:21:37 <Zakim> galway has galway, fadi, PhilA, dvilasuero, cygri, mhausenblas, GofranShukair, BartvanLeeuwen, csarven, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin, boris, spyroskotoulas, DeirdreLee
16:21:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see boris, olyerickson, Cory, MacTed, GofranShukair, danbri, DaveReynolds, stasinos, GeraldSteeman, BenediktKaempgen, dvilasuero, mhausenblas, Zakim, fadi, RRSAgent,
16:21:44 <Zakim> ... PhilA, cygri, csarven, BartvanLeeuwen, HadleyBeeman, cgueret_work, rreck, trackbot, sandro
16:21:53 <spyroskotoulas> spyroskotoulas has joined #gld
16:22:03 <boris_> boris_ has joined #gld
16:22:39 <Zakim> +??P1
16:22:49 <stasinos> Zakim, ??P1 is stasinos
16:22:49 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it
16:26:47 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
16:26:50 <PhilA> Here's a piece relevant to the discussion earlier about procurement and what the UK Cabinet Office is doing http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240114381/UK-Governments-prepares-to-open-up-IT-procurement
16:26:54 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
16:26:55 <Zakim> +HadleyBeeman
16:27:00 <mhausenblas> q?
16:28:28 <cygri> dcat slides: ��http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/2/28/Dcat-gld-f2f2.pdf
16:29:13 <mhausenblas> Topic: DCAT
16:29:37 <Mike_Pendleton> Richard covering DCAT
16:30:03 <mhausenblas> q-
16:30:09 <George> George has joined #gld
16:30:13 <gatemezi> gatemezi has joined #gld
16:30:21 <PhilA> scribe: gatemezi
16:30:27 <gatemezi> scribeNickname: gatemezi
16:30:45 <gatemezi> cygri: slides are on the wiki...
16:30:59 <gatemezi> cygri: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/dcat/index.html
16:31:20 <gatemezi> ..is not a publicly editor draft
16:31:25 <Mike_Pendleton> DCAT Editors Draft available
16:31:46 <gatemezi> cygri: have dataset, can have distribution...
16:32:00 <PhilA> Editor's draft *is* now public, however, do not take any notice of the URIs for it - this has not been agreed
16:32:04 <gatemezi> ....with the different versions of the data (csv, xml,..)
16:32:32 <Mike_Pendleton> many properties from FOAF
16:32:34 <gatemezi> cygri: DCAT has been shapered along withi the eGov .
16:32:55 <gatemezi> ..still in the process to move stuff in the W3C domain
16:33:08 <Mike_Pendleton> connecting use cases and requirements
16:33:14 <gatemezi> cygri: collected some requirements...
16:33:16 <Cory> Cory has left #gld
16:33:19 <Cory> Cory has joined #gld
16:33:28 <olyerickson> cygri: Slide 5, use cases inherited from earlier eGov discussions
16:33:47 <olyerickson> ...Q: what to do with these use cases
16:33:55 <olyerickson> ...may make sense to separately publish
16:33:55 <gatemezi> cygri: what will we do with those requirements? publish them as note?
16:33:55 <Mike_Pendleton> publish use cases as notes is a possibility
16:34:41 <gatemezi> cygri: certainly have things to be added...some works up-to-date this morning
16:34:56 <Mike_Pendleton> identifed open issues in GLD tracker
16:35:30 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
16:35:31 <gatemezi> cygri: Some  issues were raised up...
16:35:42 <Zakim> +sandro.a
16:35:49 <Zakim> -sandro
16:35:54 <gatemezi> cygri: four people are interested in this work so far
16:35:54 <bhyland> zakim, who is on the call?
16:35:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see stasinos, HadleyBeeman, sandro.a, galway, olyerickson, Washington, [IPcaller]
16:35:57 <Zakim> galway has galway, fadi, PhilA, dvilasuero, cygri, mhausenblas, GofranShukair, BartvanLeeuwen, csarven, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin, boris, spyroskotoulas, DeirdreLee
16:36:06 <Mike_Pendleton> Phil, John, Fadi and Richard are woking this issue
16:36:34 <gatemezi> cygri: next steps for the following weeks are also described in the last slide
16:36:41 <Mike_Pendleton> Richard asked for those interesting to join
16:37:00 <Mike_Pendleton> interested not interesting...
16:37:12 <DeirdreLee> DeirdreLee has joined #gld
16:37:17 <olyerickson> FPWD => "First Public Working Draft..."
16:37:24 <gatemezi> s/interested/interesting
16:37:43 <gatemezi> cygri: work through the tracker issue...
16:37:59 <sandro> q?
16:38:19 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
16:38:34 <Mike_Pendleton> thanks PhilA
16:38:43 <gatemezi> cygri: people aked how does it related to ADMS, etc...?
16:38:50 <mhausenblas> q+
16:39:11 <gatemezi> cygri: there are of course of alignments but till now not really good answer for that
16:39:42 <mhausenblas> Michael: The diffs/overview etc. re DCAT, VoiD, etc should be explained via the BP deliverable
16:39:49 <mhausenblas> ack me
16:39:54 <olyerickson> q+
16:39:55 <Mike_Pendleton> Richard: how can we ready as many publishers of data catalogs as possible; need outreach
16:40:06 <gatemezi> cygri : outreach to publisher should be to take in consideration
16:40:09 <PhilA> q+ to talk about outreach
16:40:19 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
16:40:33 <gatemezi> cygri: comments ? questions?
16:41:27 <gatemezi> olyerikson: issue in complexity into the draft that we don't necessary need
16:41:40 <Zakim> -sandro
16:41:52 <gatemezi> ...we have issue for example about language
16:42:01 <Mike_Pendleton> Q from olyerickson: draft has no official status, but stable for some time; concern about legacy issues discussed add complexity to process and draft very late that we don't need; we have had little issue with DCAT (other than language); concerned about working issues we don't need to
16:42:28 <gatemezi> s/olyerikson/olyerickson
16:42:36 <olyerickson> cygri yes, that was my largest point
16:42:42 <gatemezi> cygri: we should be aware of existing deployment
16:42:55 <mhausenblas> q+ to comment on the process
16:42:56 <mhausenblas> q?
16:43:23 <Mike_Pendleton> Richard: We need to be aware DCAT is being used and we should be aware of that when considering changes; however, it is a draft and not comfortable with saying we shouldn't change it
16:43:23 <olyerickson> ...and yes, the issues were tabled, not actually dealt with
16:43:25 <gatemezi> ...it's still a draft, but we need to talk about the issues raised by people
16:43:54 <mhausenblas> q?
16:44:20 <gatemezi> philA: an issue does not need to follow the changes in the draft
16:44:48 <PhilA> ack me
16:44:48 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to talk about outreach
16:45:41 <gatemezi> philA: we can put the same time org, best practices in the same time.
16:45:53 <George> would like to hear more about CKAN DCAT 'funniness' 
16:45:55 <olyerickson> PhilA: "CKAN uses DCAT, but in a 'funny way'"
16:45:58 <gatemezi> philA: CKAN is a big use case of the use of DCAT.
16:46:51 <gatemezi> cygri: need to articulate what we need in other to them to use  (CKAN)
16:46:57 <mhausenblas> Michael: I think we can summarise this -  we (DERI) can take care of CKAN/OKF liaison as we work together on project basis (LATC, LOD2)
16:48:03 <fadi> q+ to comment on reach out
16:48:20 <bhyland> @mhausenblas, thank you. This is really important.  Can you update the GLD WG on whatever frequency makes sense as we're really interested outreach to OKF.
16:48:33 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Richard C acts as liaison point for OKF/CKAN
16:48:46 <bhyland> +1
16:48:46 <DeirdreLee> q+
16:48:57 <gatemezi> philA: if DCAT is not attractive to CKAN, there may be a problem somewheere
16:49:05 <mhausenblas> q?
16:49:14 <PhilA> ack mhausenblas
16:49:14 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to comment on the process
16:49:15 <HadleyBeeman> Happy to help, Cygri, if you need someone to chat to them on the ground in London. 
16:49:23 <HadleyBeeman> (though it sounds like you have it all in hand)
16:49:32 <Zakim> +sandro
16:49:34 <PhilA> thanks HadleyBeeman - prob take you up on that
16:49:37 <olyerickson> CKAN "funny" use of DCAT doesn't mean DCAT is 'wrong' any more than RPI use of DCAT means it's right ;)
16:49:43 <Mike_Pendleton> mhausenblas: goal to get out working draft; define processes
16:49:50 <cygri> HadleyBeeman, it will be good if they hear about dcat from multiple directions�
16:50:07 <bhyland> +1 mhausenblas
16:50:30 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Richard C acts as liaison point for OKF/CKAN regarding DCAT
16:50:33 <bhyland> +1
16:50:42 <stasinos> +1
16:50:45 <gatemezi> mhausenblas: propose cygri  to be the liaison to CKAN
16:50:46 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
16:50:47 <boris> +1
16:50:51 <olyerickson> +1 to mhausenblas proposal
16:51:01 <sandro> ( I don't think we need a WG resolution on this kind of thing.   :-)
16:51:04 <BenediktKaempgen> +1
16:51:05 <HadleyBeeman> you're welcome :-D
16:51:09 <sandro> +1
16:51:14 <Mike_Pendleton> Hadley will support Richard
16:51:15 <bhyland> Noted: Hadley also in a good position to liaise with OKF re: DCAT
16:51:33 <olyerickson> Do we need a proposal w.r.t. specific work on issues?
16:51:47 <PhilA> q?
16:51:47 <olyerickson> q?
16:51:52 <PhilA> ack fadi
16:51:52 <Zakim> fadi, you wanted to comment on reach out
16:52:09 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: Richard C acts as liaison point for OKF/CKAN regarding DCAT
16:52:22 <gatemezi> fadi: CKAN uses DCAT in two services
16:53:04 <olyerickson> ... need a proper and clear statement of DCAT
16:53:06 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee
16:53:41 <olyerickson> Repeat the question?
16:53:45 <PhilA> q?
16:54:04 <Mike_Pendleton> George: Next step questions posed - do we want to work on them?
16:54:11 <gatemezi> george: do we discuss the next steps now?
16:54:27 <PhilA> The question was about non-CKAN usage of DCAT and what we could learn from that. Fadi noted that a number of Spanish catalogues use DCAT but all do it differently
16:55:13 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
16:55:28 <gatemezi> cygri: For the requirements, they have text for that, it is just to pass them to WG
16:55:36 <mhausenblas> +1 to turn the UC into a WG Note, that is  non-REC-Track
16:56:12 <fadi> +1 to mhausenblas 
16:56:15 <olyerickson> Wondering specifically what spanish catalogs Fadi is referring to. We haven't seen (much if any) dcat use in the wild
16:56:18 <PhilA> cygri: Arguing that publishing the UCs as a draft WG Note helps to attract more review and interest
16:56:27 <olyerickson> ...is fadi referring to CTIC?
16:56:35 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: Process for note?
16:56:52 <bhyland> W3C process for Working Note vs just having a more mutable wiki page.
16:57:03 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
16:57:06 <fadi> olyerickson: catalonia http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/dadesobertes
16:57:12 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about WG Notes
16:57:17 <gatemezi> philA: need a resolution for DCAT use case..
16:57:47 <cygri> olyerickson - catalonia, barcelona, gijon and balearic islands use it in their local catalogs
16:58:13 <bhyland> Per PhilA, it is a shorter process than Recommendation.  Circulate email to TLR, chairs with intension to publish Working Notes with some descriptive context as to why we're we doing this.
16:59:01 <bhyland> ... Working Notes that supports Recommendation and carries slightly more heft than the wiki page.
16:59:14 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:59:14 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-gld-irc#T16-59-14
16:59:56 <mhausenblas> Michael: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#q75
17:01:33 <sandro> to me "resolution" == "decision" == "written record of an agreement"
17:01:48 <bhyland> +1 @sandro
17:01:50 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #gld
17:01:57 <olyerickson> -1 to tracker issues now
17:02:08 <sandro> trackbot, how the heck are you?
17:02:21 <PhilA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: That the DCAT Use Cases be formatted as a draft WG Note and that the chairs seek permission to publish at /TR/dcat-use-cases
17:02:32 <George> George has joined #gld
17:02:59 <gatemezi> @philA: thanks!
17:03:02 <olyerickson> +1 to The DCAT Group having separate call to thrash through, preceded by email discussion
17:03:14 <DanG> I think there needs to be a general discussion before some group goes off by itself to look at an issue
17:03:15 <Mike_Pendleton> How do we want to address tracker issues?  Can we use thursday call or separate call
17:03:16 <olyerickson> q+
17:03:19 <olyerickson> q?
17:03:20 <fadi> +1 to separate call
17:03:28 <trackbot> Sorry, sandro, I don't understand 'trackbot, how the heck are you?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:03:30 <stasinos> +1 to mostly emails, with separate call at the end
17:03:43 <olyerickson> +1 to The DCAT Group reporting back to larger group 
17:03:56 <PhilA> q+ to make a proposal regarding what we talk about today cf. other occasions
17:03:59 <mhausenblas> ack me
17:03:59 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about WG Notes
17:04:02 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to more content on the weekly calls.
17:04:28 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette recommends working on specific issues on our regular weekly calls
17:04:32 <olyerickson> q?
17:05:07 <gatemezi> bhyland: should there be a specific telecon for DCAT group?
17:05:13 <annew> annew has joined #gld
17:05:16 <olyerickson> ack me
17:05:25 <olyerickson> q?
17:05:28 <olyerickson> q+
17:05:35 <mhausenblas> ack olyerickson 
17:05:40 <PhilA> ack me
17:05:40 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to make a proposal regarding what we talk about today cf. other occasions
17:05:44 <olyerickson> arrggghh
17:05:50 <gatemezi> Zakim, who is here?
17:05:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see stasinos, HadleyBeeman, sandro, galway, olyerickson, Washington, [IPcaller]
17:05:53 <Zakim> galway has galway, fadi, PhilA, dvilasuero, cygri, mhausenblas, GofranShukair, BartvanLeeuwen, csarven, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin, boris, spyroskotoulas, DeirdreLee
17:05:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see annew, George, trackbot, Yigal, DanG, DeirdreLee, bhyland, Cory, gatemezi, Mike_Pendleton, boris, spyroskotoulas, olyerickson, MacTed, GofranShukair, danbri,
17:05:59 <Zakim> ... DaveReynolds, stasinos, GeraldSteeman, BenediktKaempgen, dvilasuero, mhausenblas, Zakim, fadi, RRSAgent, PhilA, cygri, csarven, BartvanLeeuwen, HadleyBeeman, cgueret_work,
17:06:00 <fadi> https://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/issues/raised
17:06:02 <Zakim> ... rreck, sandro
17:06:06 <bhyland> Cygri: If others think it is  a good use of our weekly telecons to dig deeper into DCAT to help streamline it moving forward, please indicate your interest.
17:06:12 <bhyland> +1 by bhyland
17:06:48 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: looking at the well catalogued issues, some are detailed about individual properties, and thos should be handled among interested folks on a separate call; others are of broader interest 
17:06:51 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk to fragmentation vs. efficiency 
17:07:33 <olyerickson> phila: is referring to the "distribution" stuff
17:07:40 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: mechanism for what is in a zip; like CKAN has
17:07:50 <mhausenblas> q?
17:07:55 <sandro> q?
17:08:10 <bhyland> q?
17:08:51 <bhyland> q+ Secret incantation to hop the queue ;-)
17:09:10 <sandro> q+ to suggest (re dates) we *not* merge data with comments on the data, in the same field
17:09:20 <annew> are boiled frogs legs necessary to jump the queue?
17:09:46 <gatemezi> olyerickson: there are some issues to be talked by emails and after if necessary others in the regular call
17:09:47 <Mike_Pendleton> olyerickson: if there are high level issues which should be discussed today or on reg. call; other low level issues on email/breakout call; leave it to chairs/rest of group
17:09:48 <George> i think that's consistent with PhilA 's suggestion
17:09:54 <mhausenblas> ack me
17:09:54 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk to fragmentation vs. efficiency
17:10:04 <gatemezi> @Mike_Pendleton: thanks
17:10:40 <Mike_Pendleton> @ gatemezi: it takes a village
17:10:52 <mhausenblas> q?
17:10:57 <gatemezi> mhausenblas: how details of the discussion do we like ? Efficiency arises when the small group meets together
17:11:46 <George> ack sandro 
17:11:46 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest (re dates) we *not* merge data with comments on the data, in the same field
17:11:51 <Mike_Pendleton> Sandro: date question - approach of having typed value if known or string if you don't know the date
17:12:09 <stasinos> q+
17:12:38 <csarven> IMO better to make it easier for the publisher than for tool builders (writing code around stuff)
17:12:43 <olyerickson> sandro is concerned about best way to handle "uncertainty" around dates
17:13:03 <Mike_Pendleton> Sandro: Handling uncertainty is dates - labeling and annotation
17:13:07 <olyerickson> ...clear what to do when it's known e.g. xsd: date but what to do when NOT known
17:13:09 <gatemezi> sandro: is there any research going on in handling uncertainty? 
17:13:43 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has left #gld
17:13:44 <gatemezi> philA: in half the time publishers don't type very well the data
17:13:49 <sandro> *nod* this is about whether the burden goes on the publisher or consumer....
17:14:02 <cygri> Q+
17:14:33 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: half the time data publishers use the wrong date type - better to use two versions
17:14:46 <PhilA> ack stasinos
17:14:47 <Mike_Pendleton> George: Make it easier on the publisher
17:15:09 <stasinos> http://placetime.com/
17:15:19 <mhausenblas> q?
17:15:20 <olyerickson> +1 @george being TOO specific e.g. with dateTime or gYear tec can b a problem
17:15:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, allow cygri 30s
17:15:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'allow cygri 30s', mhausenblas
17:15:53 <mhausenblas> Zakim, allow cygri 30 s
17:15:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'allow cygri 30 s', mhausenblas
17:16:24 <mhausenblas> Zakim, allow cygri 30 sec
17:16:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'allow cygri 30 sec', mhausenblas
17:16:32 <PhilA> ack cygri
17:17:25 <gatemezi> cygri: if you have 2 properties, you have to write how to use them, no complexity in term of coding
17:17:26 <PhilA> q+ to suggest a third way that I don't like but recognise it's a possibility
17:18:24 <gatemezi> cygri: DCAT takes existing metadata of data and expose them in RDF
17:18:26 <mhausenblas> allow 30 sec
17:18:43 <mhausenblas> q?
17:18:45 <bhyland> cygri: Purpose of DCAT is to take existing databases of metadata and exposing them as RDF.  Anything that requires recoding of dates is COMPLETELY out of the question for cygri.
17:19:04 <bhyland> ... quantfy uncertainty is too difficult.
17:19:17 <gatemezi> s/quantfy/quantify
17:19:20 <olyerickson> +1 to cygri being persuasive ;) 
17:19:29 <stasinos> q+
17:19:42 <bhyland> Sandro: Is persuaded by cygri's argument. 
17:20:04 <olyerickson> The use case of legacy dates MUST NOT be ignored
17:20:22 <PhilA> ack me
17:20:22 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to suggest a third way that I don't like but recognise it's a possibility
17:20:32 <bhyland> q+
17:20:35 <olyerickson> q+
17:20:38 <George> q?
17:21:22 <bhyland> Discussed: Data accurary using XSD Date which is the most ubiquitous date format
17:21:43 <olyerickson> That's up to the consumer
17:21:58 <gatemezi> s/accurary/accuracy
17:22:13 <olyerickson> bhyland: chair interrupt
17:22:47 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: Gov't orgs have to accept whatever; they accept data that sometimes they can't clean up.  
17:23:00 <olyerickson> q?
17:23:07 <cygri> (but: unclean data in - unclean data out)
17:23:30 <olyerickson> bhyland that's the point, we're talking about a string-bucket as a roll-over
17:23:41 <bhyland> Discussion is about how do we handle and not fall over with systems give us ill-behaved/ill-formatted data.
17:24:13 <bhyland> ... Is our recommendation 'leave it as a string' or data type it if we DO know it is a date.
17:24:15 <olyerickson> +1 to xsd: date preferred, string literal otherwise
17:24:21 <bhyland> +1
17:24:25 <George> +1
17:24:26 <boris> +1
17:24:26 <olyerickson> ;)
17:24:32 <PhilA> ack stasinos
17:24:34 <dvilasuero> +1
17:24:34 <olyerickson> q-
17:24:36 <bhyland> ack me
17:24:41 <gatemezi> sandro: if you know the date, use xsd:data; if not use it as string
17:24:45 <sandro> +1 (untll some folks come with a compelling rdfs:range use case)
17:25:42 <mhausenblas> q?
17:26:18 <csarven> A literal doesn't necessarily imply anything more than what it really is (unless further context is give). The interpretation is up to the consumer. 2012-01-26 (would be on that day, or the whole day, and not necessarily on the midnight of that day).
17:26:22 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
17:26:28 <mhausenblas> q+ to propose close queue
17:26:31 <gatemezi> stasinos: propose not to allow string 
17:26:54 <mhausenblas> q?
17:26:57 <bhyland> Stasinos recommends looking closely at PlaceTime.com - URIs for Places and Times.  PlaceTime.com is intended to be a URI space containing URIs that represent places and times.
17:27:05 <stasinos> stasinos proposed to not allow *unstructured* strings
17:27:13 <gatemezi> philA: it is difficult to ask providers to reformate their data
17:27:27 <mhausenblas> q?
17:27:28 <olyerickson> q?
17:27:37 <mhausenblas> ack me
17:27:37 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to propose close queue
17:28:28 <Mike_Pendleton> Mhausenblas: are there other things we want to cover?
17:28:37 <gatemezi> mhausenblas: do we have another important issue to discuss? 
17:29:12 <olyerickson> +1 to shaken, not stirred
17:29:23 <olyerickson> +1 to it being 5 O'Oclock Somewhere
17:29:34 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:29:43 <olyerickson> Zakim, what would Jimmy Buffett do?
17:29:43 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, olyerickson.
17:29:57 <mhausenblas> q?
17:30:33 <mhausenblas> q+ on usage advises on external vocabs
17:30:40 <stasinos> q+
17:30:46 <DanG> q+
17:30:48 <mhausenblas> q?
17:30:51 <cygri> q+ to mention third (OWL) option
17:30:53 <gatemezi> philA: how do we use DCterms issued? 
17:31:04 <boris> q+
17:31:16 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: Issue 2 :-)  In definition of DCAT, cube data, etc, we will be saying 'use this term' and this is how we want them to use it; is it right to make range statements about others terms?  
17:31:20 <mhausenblas> Michael: I'd prefer a soft advise as we did in VoID such as in http://www.w3.org/TR/void/#dublin-core
17:31:50 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #gld
17:31:53 <olyerickson> +1 to "anyone can say anything about anything" http://bit.ly/yZvdpk (RDF def'n)
17:31:56 <mhausenblas> q?
17:32:19 <BenediktKaempgen> +q
17:32:24 <PhilA> ack mhausenblas
17:32:24 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to comment on usage advises on external vocabs
17:33:02 <PhilA> ack stasinos
17:33:07 <fadi> +1 mhausenblas 
17:33:13 <BenediktKaempgen> q-
17:33:16 <boris> +1 usage notes michael
17:34:29 <gatemezi> +1 to the AAA slogan
17:35:18 <gatemezi> @olyrickson: is not "anyone can say anything about any topic" ? :-)
17:35:32 <PhilA> ack DanG
17:36:22 <olyerickson> @gatemezi I'd like to understand why not. The way it is being presented, it sounds like that to me; this is why I'd like some examples
17:36:23 <PhilA> olyerickson: There's a specific case cited in the issue http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/issues/4
17:37:31 <PhilA> ack cygri
17:37:31 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention third (OWL) option
17:37:33 <DeirdreLee> q+
17:37:40 <Mike_Pendleton> DanG: in standards community; conformity is the notion, not compliance, and extends to a technical spec.  For example, US Open Govt vocab working group; as long as vocab conforms to the spec., all is good; takes us out of the business of telling people what and how in particular circumstances
17:38:02 <olyerickson> Thanks @PhilA, I think I get it. Problem being discussed is, cases where a 3rd party term is used but with an added restriction
17:38:32 <gatemezi> @Mike_Pendleton: thanks!! it is sometimes difficult to scribe alone :-)
17:38:53 <olyerickson> ...ie "we use foo: xyz BUT only with range xsd: fooBar "
17:39:24 <boris> q-
17:39:52 <DanG> I think my statement is consistent with what Richard is saying.
17:40:28 <gatemezi> cygri: actually OWL is powerful to make explicit context about datasets, or DCAT
17:40:46 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #gld
17:40:48 <PhilA> I like what cygri is saying about using OWL - that sounds like a solution to me (along with a textual note)
17:41:01 <olyerickson> q?
17:41:01 <stasinos> q
17:41:04 <stasinos> q+
17:41:08 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee
17:41:16 <stasinos> OWL might be overkill for this particular use case
17:41:54 <gatemezi> DeirdreLee: saying in prose in open to interpretation, formalise it is better; agrees with cygri
17:41:57 <PhilA> q?
17:41:59 <Mike_Pendleton> deirdreLee: DCAT usage is open to interpretation
17:42:09 <PhilA> ack stasinos
17:42:31 <sandro> there's a difference between conflicts due to errors and conflicts due to people redefining other people's stuff
17:42:44 <PhilA> q+
17:43:16 <cygri> yes - defining a subproperty is always possible and avoids the problem
17:44:05 <gatemezi> +1 to defining a subproperty
17:44:10 <PhilA> ack me
17:44:27 <stasinos> +1 to backward-chaining -1 to tableaux
17:44:49 <cygri> yes - defining a subproperty means inventing a new property.
17:45:53 <gatemezi> philA: Ok for the defining a subproperty; but problems come when using a reasoner using inferencing
17:46:17 <gatemezi> philA: using owl is the wright thing
17:46:22 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: stasinos idea is the most accurate solution; however Richard pointed out that most linked data systems don't involve reasoners, so it doesn't matter
17:46:29 <George> q?
17:46:43 <olyerickson> Can someone please explain why dcat's use of dc dates is not an example? 
17:46:48 <gatemezi> Zakim, who is here?
17:46:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see stasinos, HadleyBeeman, sandro, galway, olyerickson, Washington
17:46:50 <Zakim> galway has galway, fadi, PhilA, dvilasuero, cygri, mhausenblas, GofranShukair, BartvanLeeuwen, csarven, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin, boris, spyroskotoulas, DeirdreLee
17:46:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see trackbot, Mike_Pendleton, annew, George, Yigal, DanG, DeirdreLee, Cory, gatemezi, boris, spyroskotoulas, olyerickson, MacTed, GofranShukair, danbri, stasinos,
17:46:58 <Zakim> ... GeraldSteeman, BenediktKaempgen, dvilasuero, mhausenblas, Zakim, fadi, RRSAgent, PhilA, cygri, csarven, BartvanLeeuwen, HadleyBeeman, cgueret_work, rreck, sandro
17:46:58 <olyerickson> dc doesn't say anything about xsd: date
17:47:13 <olyerickson> q?
17:47:40 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld
17:48:05 <PhilA> Possible Ways forward: 1) define the sub domain and range as we see fit and don't care 2) only define domain and raneg in a usage note specific to DCAT etc, 3) define ranges in OWL
17:48:10 <gatemezi> @cygri: do we have a link of the slides?
17:48:22 <cygri> gatemezi, which slides?
17:48:23 <BenediktKaempgen> slide 8: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/2/28/Dcat-gld-f2f2.pdf
17:48:32 <cygri> ah ok
17:48:55 <gatemezi> @benediktKaempgen: thanks
17:49:10 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
17:49:13 <cygri> option 4) define subproperties and subclasses
17:49:53 <gatemezi> +1 for option 4)
17:50:12 <olyerickson> PhilA: By "Combination of 2 & 3" do you mean prose + RDFS, or RDFS + OWL, or???
17:50:37 <cygri> option 5) it depends.
17:50:41 <PhilA> olyerickson: I mean use OWL and text, not RDFs
17:50:45 <csarven> 6) all of the above
17:50:53 <annew> Can we have a vote after we have a short break? and a clarification of the question
17:50:56 <stasinos> 7) do nothing
17:50:57 <olyerickson> PhilA ah okay
17:50:57 <mhausenblas> 7) none of the above?
17:51:11 <stasinos> 8) go for dinner
17:51:20 <olyerickson> me notes it's waaay after 5p in Galway ;)
17:51:21 <mhausenblas> s/dinner/beer
17:51:30 <mhausenblas> yeah, like 51min
17:51:33 <annew> s/dinner/martini
17:51:53 <George> 1) define the sub domain and range as we see fit and don't care 
17:52:11 <cygri> -0.8
17:52:13 <BenediktKaempgen> -1
17:52:18 <mhausenblas> +0.2
17:52:19 <boris> -1
17:52:27 <Mike_Pendleton> rreck +1 1
17:52:29 <gatemezi> +0.3
17:52:30 <George> +.03
17:52:30 <bhyland> abstain
17:52:38 <olyerickson> Who is "we" (I'm serioues)
17:52:41 <stasinos> + 1E-1
17:52:45 <csarven> nil
17:53:14 <annew> Anne will give promises of preservation and stability to whoever buys drinks
17:53:18 <olyerickson> No we're not
17:53:27 <olyerickson> Trying to understand who "we" is
17:53:34 <DanG> Will someone please write down a succinct atement of the question?
17:53:42 <annew> +1 dang
17:53:45 <George> 2) only define domain and raneg in a usage note specific to DCAT etc
17:53:50 <fadi> +1
17:53:51 <DanG> s/atement/statement
17:54:01 <gatemezi> s/atement/statement
17:54:10 <cygri> s/atement/drinkment/
17:54:17 <Mike_Pendleton> abstain
17:54:21 <stasinos> this was 3 before, wasnt it?
17:54:22 <cygri> +0.8
17:54:42 <PhilA> DanG: When publishing the machine readable version of a vocabulary, how should we indicate that in the context of that vocabulary, terms from other namespace should be used in a way that is more restrictive than is defined in the original definition
17:54:49 <stasinos> -1
17:54:52 <BenediktKaempgen> -1 (then we do not need to call it domain/range)
17:55:04 <DeirdreLee> -1
17:55:04 <gatemezi> 0.2
17:55:10 <mhausenblas> +1
17:55:12 <csarven> +1
17:55:15 <George> 3) define ranges in OWL
17:55:19 <fadi> -1
17:55:22 <olyerickson> WHO IS "WE"????????
17:55:24 <stasinos> +0.5
17:55:27 <DeirdreLee> +1
17:55:28 <csarven> --0
17:55:28 <gatemezi> -1
17:55:29 <GofranShukair> -1
17:55:37 <cygri> +0.5
17:55:48 <George> q?
17:56:14 <mhausenblas> Michael: On a serious note -  can we delegate this to the DCAT TF - this doesn't make sense to me at all
17:57:02 <annew> </childishBehavior>
17:57:14 <gatemezi> philA: WE=vGLD group
17:57:14 <olyerickson> Thanks! Sorry for exploding
17:57:17 <BenediktKaempgen> q+
17:57:21 <cygri> +1 mhausenblas. we've collected the options and heard some opinions and arguments, that's perhaps as good as we can do here.
17:57:33 <gatemezi> s/vGLD/GLD 
17:57:57 <stasinos> here comes (8) again: do nothing
17:58:00 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to bhyland and mhausenblas
17:58:19 <annew> +1 break
17:58:21 <George> q?
17:58:23 <olyerickson> Let's package it up as a proposal in email and thrash it there
17:58:28 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1 for break
17:58:35 <gatemezi> +1 break if we close the "debate"
17:59:00 <BenediktKaempgen> q-
17:59:01 <gatemezi> bhyland: break 10 minutes
17:59:02 <HadleyBeeman> okay.
17:59:02 <Zakim> -galway
17:59:04 <Zakim> -sandro
17:59:10 <Zakim> -HadleyBeeman
17:59:20 <Zakim> -stasinos
18:03:56 <olyerickson> wondering what galway is looking at (curious)
18:04:16 <SimpsonTP_> SimpsonTP_ has joined #gld
18:05:07 <csarven1> csarven1 has joined #gld
18:06:00 <mhausenblas_> mhausenblas_ has joined #gld
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18:06:41 <olyerickson> hey Galway, unmute
18:11:38 <mhausenblas> galway coming back
18:11:45 <Zakim> +galway
18:12:14 <mhausenblas> q+ to update people about BP
18:12:20 <mhausenblas> q+ to suggest a timeline for FPWD 9 Feb and 23 Feb
18:12:36 <mhausenblas> Topic: Review of all outstanding Documents that the WG is updating
18:13:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
18:13:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see galway, olyerickson, Washington
18:13:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, mhausenblas, csarven1, SimpsonTP_, bhyland, cmusialek, trackbot, Mike_Pendleton, George, DanG, DeirdreLee, Cory, boris, spyroskotoulas, olyerickson, MacTed,
18:13:41 <Zakim> ... GofranShukair, danbri, stasinos, GeraldSteeman, BenediktKaempgen, dvilasuero, Zakim, fadi, RRSAgent, PhilA, HadleyBeeman, cgueret_work, rreck, sandro
18:13:47 <gatemezi> gatemezi has joined #gld
18:14:05 <gatemezi> Zakim, who is here?
18:14:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see galway, olyerickson, Washington
18:14:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see gatemezi, cygri, mhausenblas, csarven1, SimpsonTP_, bhyland, cmusialek, trackbot, Mike_Pendleton, George, DanG, DeirdreLee, Cory, boris, spyroskotoulas, olyerickson,
18:14:11 <Zakim> ... MacTed, GofranShukair, danbri, stasinos, GeraldSteeman, BenediktKaempgen, dvilasuero, Zakim, fadi, RRSAgent, PhilA, HadleyBeeman, cgueret_work, rreck, sandro
18:15:01 <olyerickson> Zakim, who are the Cool Kids handing out on G+?
18:15:01 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, olyerickson.
18:15:40 <mhausenblas> q?
18:15:43 <PhilA> scribe: fadi
18:16:16 <Zakim> +HadleyBeeman
18:16:20 <fadi> bhyland: let's review outstanding documents we are updating
18:16:56 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: How to keep momentum and make progress on a montly basis
18:17:05 <fadi> ... we need to keep the great momentum we have
18:17:43 <fadi> ... what's our strategy for the upcoming tele-calls?
18:17:59 <DanG> DanG has left #gld
18:18:09 <mhausenblas> Michael: Can we first agree on FPWD please? And then have the meta-discussion?
18:18:33 <fadi> ... we already have consumers involved
18:18:51 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
18:18:56 <fadi> ... how to keep the moentum then, suggestions/comments?
18:19:10 <fadi> s/moentum/momentum/
18:19:12 <mhausenblas> q?
18:19:15 <bhyland> Topic: FPWD Best Practices timing
18:19:23 <mhausenblas> ack me
18:19:23 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to update people about BP and to suggest a timeline for FPWD 9 Feb and 23 Feb
18:19:43 <mhausenblas> See https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/bp/index.html
18:19:58 <fadi> mhausenblas: we had a quick session in the moorninng updating an editor draft
18:19:59 <cygri> can one of the google plus kids invite me again?
18:20:20 <fadi> ... feel free to raise issues and provide feedback
18:20:30 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track by end of Feb 2012 with 9 Feb ready for WG review and final decision to be taken on 23 Feb.
18:21:14 <Zakim> +sandro
18:21:44 <fadi> PhilA: do we need the two weeks between 9 and 23?
18:22:26 <fadi> mhausenblas: probably yes... based on  experience, people need this time to review 
18:22:34 <fadi> ... talking about WG members
18:22:37 <bhyland> +1 to proposal timing and 1 week review cycle.  IF needed, we can extend, but better to put a fire under people's bum
18:23:12 <bhyland> q?
18:23:36 <mhausenblas> Michael: I suggested 2 weeks review cycle, bhyland, just to clarify 
18:23:53 <fadi> bhyland: we are all here, so we can make a decision
18:24:30 <fadi> ... anyone has particular input to people here who are working on the best practice?
18:24:45 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track
18:25:23 <cygri> q+
18:25:26 <PhilA> q+ To just check we want the vocabs on the Rec Track
18:25:31 <fadi> mhausenblas: any other document should go the REC-track?
18:26:13 <fadi> bhyland: this looks a lot giving that some people expressed that they are busy currently 
18:26:14 <olyerickson> bhyland yes DaveReynolds was either working QB or ORG 
18:26:17 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
18:26:54 <sandro> Yes -- it's okay to have placeholders for sections of the document.
18:26:55 <fadi> cygri: is it acceptable for the FWPD to have big gaps like entire section not written yet?
18:27:12 <fadi> mhausenblas: yes
18:27:18 <bhyland> DaveReynolds is key person on ORG. What is being proposed is that 4 documents as FPWD.
18:27:24 <sandro> the key thing to to give people an idea which way we are heading, and give them something interesting to review.
18:27:44 <fadi> cygri: standard vocabulary doesn't seem covered in the list
18:28:27 <sandro> right, People Vocab is missing.
18:28:28 <fadi> ... referring particularly to the "people" 
18:28:37 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
18:28:37 <fadi> ... mentioned in the charter 
18:29:09 <fadi> PhilA: as part of the core vocabulary work we are working on a "person" vocabulary
18:29:32 <fadi> ... there will be soon a version available in the public domain
18:29:48 <fadi> ... this might be used as basis for representing people
18:29:56 <fadi> ... not going with FWPD 
18:30:16 <fadi> ... but just pointing that we tackled the "people" representation topic
18:30:37 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track, while people area will be addressed later (based on ISI draft)
18:31:19 <fadi> ... the ISA person vocabulary can be, when available, a candidate 
18:31:25 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track, while people area will be addressed later (based on ISA draft)
18:31:32 <bhyland> PhilA: Hoping that people in this WG would consider as a candidate for endorsement the ISA Person Core Vocbulary ..
18:31:34 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track, while people area will be addressed later (based on ISA-core draft)
18:31:36 <fadi> ... for the WG to consider
18:31:37 <PhilA> ack me
18:31:37 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to just check we want the vocabs on the Rec Track
18:32:17 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: to get to REC you have to prove it is being used correctly
18:32:20 <bhyland> PhilA: Part of being a Recommendation, is a reference implementation to provide it is being used, and used correctly.
18:32:22 <mhausenblas> q+
18:32:23 <fadi> PhilA: by publishing vocabulary on the REC-Track, it needs to be proved that the vocabulary is used
18:32:33 <mhausenblas> ack me
18:32:38 <olyerickson> Link to ISA Core Person Vocabulary http://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/core_person/description 
18:32:42 <cygri> q+ to say that the charter says the vocabs will go REC
18:32:44 <fadi> ... and is used in a correct manner... a note doesn't have this restriction
18:32:53 <fadi> mhausenblas: with dcat for example we can prove it
18:32:57 <bhyland> mhausenblas: DCAT, Cube and ORG are all used and we can prove it.
18:33:02 <sandro> q+ on implementation reports
18:33:03 <Mike_Pendleton> Proof comes from signature logs, etc
18:33:09 <fadi> ... using mailing lists, Sindice log, answer.semantic.org
18:33:21 <olyerickson> Link to all ISA Core Vocabularies (reference) https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/software/isa-cv/description
18:33:30 <fadi> PhilA: you need to prove that people use *all* of it
18:33:31 <HadleyBeeman> This is sounding like a significant bit of research.
18:33:56 <mhausenblas> q?
18:34:01 <bhyland> q+ 
18:34:07 <fadi> ... every element of the specification has been implemented more than once in a right manner
18:34:28 <fadi> cygri: the charter said that the vocabularies will be on the REC-track
18:34:33 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
18:34:33 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say that the charter says the vocabs will go REC
18:34:43 <fadi> ... looking at SKOS is helpful
18:34:47 <mhausenblas> q?
18:34:53 <sandro> q-
18:35:03 <mhausenblas> ack bhyland 
18:35:19 <Mike_Pendleton> bhyland: We are not in  the business of writing vocabs; we do checklists and specify what is used
18:35:33 <mhausenblas> Michael: I disagree. We do do vocabs
18:35:44 <mhausenblas> ... see sec 2.3
18:35:47 <fadi> bhyland: with BP, the focus is on providing checklist help people choose vocabularies, etc...
18:36:01 <fadi> ... Core vocabularies sounds out of the charter
18:36:01 <mhausenblas> q?
18:36:20 <fadi> ... yesterday decision was not to give a particular recommendation on a vocabulary
18:36:41 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track, while people area will be addressed later (based on ISA-core draft)
18:36:46 <fadi> ... except for items that are explicitly mentioned in the charter
18:36:53 <fadi> ... which includes people
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18:37:33 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track, while people area will be addressed later
18:37:41 <fadi> cygri: it is early to decide/vote on the ISA core draft as we are fully aware of it
18:37:44 <bhyland> Cygri: couldn't be supportive of ISA Core Core vocab until we've had a chance to review it.
18:37:45 <cygri> +1
18:37:46 <George> + VCard?
18:37:47 <bhyland> +1 cygri
18:38:05 <BenediktKaempgen> +1
18:38:07 <boris> +1
18:38:22 <sandro> +1
18:38:24 <SimpsonTP_> +1
18:38:26 <fadi> +1
18:38:32 <dvilasuero> +1
18:38:37 <gatemezi> + 1
18:38:48 <gatemezi> +1
18:38:49 <DanG> +1
18:38:54 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish the first batch of FPWD by end of Feb 2012 with 9 Feb ready for WG review and final decision to be taken on 23 Feb.
18:39:48 <fadi> mhausenblas: the proposal gives two weeks for the members to comment
18:40:02 <mhausenblas> + where is my brain
18:40:14 <fadi> PROPOSAL: The GLD WG decides to publish the first batch of FPWD by end of Feb 2012 with 9 Feb ready for WG review and final decision to be taken on 23 Feb.
18:40:27 <SimpsonTP_> +1
18:40:29 <rreck1> predictable
18:40:41 <sandro> +1
18:40:43 <boris> +1
18:40:45 <cygri> +1
18:40:45 <dvilasuero> +1
18:40:48 <fadi> +1
18:40:51 <Mike_Pendleton> +1
18:41:07 <olyerickson> Well that was my question
18:41:46 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: The GLD WG decides to publish BP, DCAT, QB and ORG as FPWD on the REC-Track, while people area will be addressed later
18:41:57 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: The GLD WG decides to publish the first batch of FPWD by end of Feb 2012 with 9 Feb ready for WG review and final decision to be taken on 23 Feb.
18:42:06 <fadi> PhilA: I will work on putting both dcat and ORG into respec
18:42:25 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: it is a mechanical job
18:42:25 <olyerickson> I'm +1 to DCAT (I think very little other than what PhilA is talking about)
18:43:01 <fadi> mhausenblas: the two weeks comment period gives us a back-up
18:43:05 <cygri> q+ to ask about volunteers for html churning
18:43:08 <mhausenblas> q?
18:43:11 <olyerickson> I'm frankly unclear what additional work reqd for section changes to BP
18:43:12 <fadi> ... in case the deadline of Feb 9 is not met
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18:44:24 <fadi> bhyland: a glossary is missed from the charter
18:44:37 <fadi> ... this should be section 1.10
18:44:57 <mhausenblas> q+ on what is required for the BP
18:45:03 <fadi> olyerickson: re. provenance I started working on the respected section
18:45:21 <mhausenblas> Michael: I suggest to keep it simple for the FPWD - our charter doesn't require provenance
18:45:25 <mhausenblas> q?
18:45:29 <fadi> ... so far it is not clear what the requirements are
18:45:59 <fadi> bhyland: I will work on the provenance section in the cook book
18:46:18 <olyerickson> +1 to keeping what we have so far
18:46:20 <fadi> mhausenblas: this doesn't look a requirement in the chapter
18:46:26 <fadi> s/chapter/charter/
18:46:37 <mhausenblas> Michael: it isn't a requirement ;)
18:46:42 <fadi> mhausenblas: may be we'd better focus on the "must do" parts
18:46:43 <olyerickson> bhyland that is NOT provenance
18:46:52 <fadi> bhyland: I already have some contents ready
18:46:53 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld
18:47:24 <fadi> olyerickson: provenance need more discussion later
18:47:42 <mhausenblas> q?
18:47:49 <cygri> ack me
18:47:49 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about volunteers for html churning
18:47:50 <olyerickson> I'm more concerned about narrowing URI construction
18:47:55 <mhausenblas> ack me
18:47:55 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to comment on what is required for the BP
18:48:20 <mhausenblas> +1 to cygri
18:48:28 <dvilasuero> +1 to cygri
18:48:34 <fadi> cygri: it would be great if someone is willing to help with the editorial work
18:48:59 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld
18:50:09 <Zakim> + +1.703.201.aaaa
18:50:35 <George> q+ to talk about why VCard is getting no GLD love
18:50:46 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: Any issues yet to be raised?
18:50:51 <t_gheen> Zakim, aaaa is me
18:50:51 <Zakim> +t_gheen; got it
18:50:55 <rreck_again> +q validation 
18:51:21 <fadi> mhausenblas: shall we have a meta-discussion? re. organizing, time management, etc.
18:51:22 <rreck_again> oops imean the topic
18:51:30 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about the non-Editor's role in the process
18:51:47 <fadi> bhyland: now that we have the deadline set to Feb 9, we've got the motivation/target to work for
18:52:02 <mhausenblas> q?
18:52:14 <mhausenblas> q- validation
18:52:25 <cygri> +1 to bernadette
18:52:35 <mhausenblas> q?
18:52:38 <PhilA> q+ to talk about future events that might provide opportunity for f2f meetings
18:52:41 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to bernadette and mhausenblas's points on big bang publishing approach
18:52:50 <mhausenblas> ack George 
18:52:50 <Zakim> George, you wanted to talk about why VCard is getting no GLD love
18:52:51 <PhilA> ack George
18:53:09 <Mike_Pendleton> George: Pulse check on VCARD
18:53:15 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
18:53:17 <fadi> George: what people think of vcard?
18:53:30 <Mike_Pendleton> George: ORG seems to work with it pretty well
18:53:36 <mhausenblas> q?
18:53:39 <mhausenblas> ack me
18:53:39 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about the non-Editor's role in the process
18:53:41 <fadi> ... I'm curious to know about people's opinion about using it for represnting people
18:53:53 <rreck_again> rreck_again has joined #gld
18:54:05 <sandro> q?
18:54:08 <rreck_again> +q
18:54:13 <Mike_Pendleton> mhausenblas: need folks to review
18:54:13 <fadi> mhausenblas: people who are not editors would help in reviewing the drafts
18:54:13 <sandro> q+
18:54:20 <PhilA> q-
18:54:23 <fadi> ... they have an equivalent important role
18:54:30 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf/
18:54:34 <gatemezi> s/represnting/representing
18:54:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:54:55 <fadi> ... re VCard 
18:55:07 <fadi> ... there are a lot of options currently
18:55:10 <stasinos> Zakim, [IPcaller] is stasinos
18:55:10 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it
18:55:23 <fadi> ... FOAF, VCard, the ISA vocab, etc.
18:55:32 <fadi> ... further research is needed to decide
18:55:41 <bhyland> mhausenblas: vCard needs a bit of research before we give de facto blessing ... if it is vCard, ok, but it deserves review in light of alternatives.
18:55:49 <sandro> q?
18:56:13 <fadi> PhilA: my opinion is that VCard looks very American-specific
18:56:14 <olyerickson> Is this a vcard vs ISA Person discussion?
18:56:14 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to philA: vCard is difficult when you're in the UK (or outside the USA)
18:56:32 <fadi> ... but it is hard to define a vocabulary that fit everybody
18:56:33 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: vCard format is alien to many (except Americans)
18:56:33 <HadleyBeeman> s/difficult/awkward
18:56:50 <olyerickson> HadleyBeeman what does the 'rest of the world" use? 
18:57:01 <Mike_Pendleton> PhilA: No one format will work for everyone
18:57:16 <bhyland> I'm Amercan and find vCard overly simplified.
18:57:28 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson we've been talking about that this week at LinkedGov.  We're shoe-horning stuff into vCard— but it is awkward.  And hard to explain to non-techie users.
18:57:37 <Mike_Pendleton> George: thought it was an easy win; this is the pulse check we are looking for
18:57:54 <olyerickson> HadleyBeeman has e.g. hcard come up? 
18:58:12 <mhausenblas> Michael: In fact, as I 've been doing some work already in this area I'd volunteer to contribute to the  'people area' once we have the FPWD of BP out of the door
18:58:29 <mhausenblas> q?
18:58:40 <bhyland> 1?
18:58:40 <fadi> PhilA: VCard  is still one of the best available options
18:58:47 <bhyland> q?
18:58:48 <mhausenblas> ack rreck_again  
18:58:53 <csarven> +1 to PhilA: implementation > convenience
18:58:57 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: yeah, it has. (I can't remember right now what the problem was there, to be honest)  I think we'll end up using vCard but relabelling the fields for UK-based users (for input only).
18:59:01 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about people vocab contribution
18:59:25 <fadi> rreck_again: valid RDF is important and woth being added to the check list
18:59:38 <cygri> q+ to answer on validation and bnodes
18:59:44 <PhilA> s/VCard is still one of the best available options/VCard is still one of the most readily available options and is no worse than any of the others/
18:59:46 <olyerickson> HadleyBeeman  hCard discussed here http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard could be lack of official status
18:59:48 <fadi> ... re. blank nodes
18:59:53 <Mike_Pendleton> rreck: two topics: 1. When I get RDF, it doesn't always validate against 'X'; 2. Anonymous nodes - tell govt's not to use B nodes
19:00:05 <fadi> ... I'd suggest to governments not using it
19:00:13 <stasinos> I like bnodes when they are right for what I am doing!
19:00:20 <sandro> genid uris
19:00:22 <fadi> bhyland: more suitable point for the RDF WG
19:00:33 <Mike_Pendleton> ... suggest replacing B nodes with URIs
19:00:38 <bhyland> cygri: Commented on decissions / discussions within RDF WG for RDF 1.1 
19:00:44 <cygri> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-skolemization
19:00:55 <olyerickson> Who is talking?
19:01:05 <fadi> cygri: in RDF WG we have a note on how to replace blank nodes with identified ones
19:01:07 <csarven> Avoid where possible.
19:01:18 <sandro> @ olyerickson it was rreck 
19:01:27 <olyerickson> @sandro thanks
19:01:28 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: I'm quite familiar with microformats. :)  It may well be that the Google Refine code we're using to import data defaults to vCard? (We're still building a proof-of-concept; that stuff will be refined as we go)
19:01:33 <fadi> ... looks like blank nodes are not "liked" in general
19:01:50 <fadi> cygri: re. validation there is one available from the W3C
19:02:01 <fadi> ... but it only supports RDF/XML and not Turtle
19:02:12 <fadi> ... it is worth raising the point to the RDF WG
19:02:20 <sandro> +1 this group can say how important an RDF validator (with Turtle, etc) mght be for GLD.
19:02:22 <fadi> ... and asking for Turtle support in the validation
19:02:52 <fadi> ... talking about the validator operated b the W3C
19:02:53 <olyerickson> HadleyBeeman RE Refine defaulting to vCard I wouldn't be surprised.  Makes me wonder what e.g. socrata defaults to when it interprets data types 
19:03:13 <fadi> s/ b / by /
19:03:21 <George> q?
19:03:31 <cygri> ack me
19:03:31 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to answer on validation and bnodes
19:03:42 <bhyland> cygri: Would be helpful if the GLD WG liaised with RDF WG that improved validation in .ttl would be very useful.
19:03:43 <Mike_Pendleton> Bernadette: I can bring this up with the RDF working group (David Wood)
19:03:47 <mhausenblas> Michael: charter [[People, such as elements of FOAF or vCard in RDF. This is an area for particular attention to privacy considerations.]] - reminds me on the NeoGeo approach, see http://geovocab.org/doc/neogeo.html
19:04:16 <fadi> sandro: when each of us votes to accept a FPWD it means that to the best of our knowledge
19:04:29 <fadi> ... the working draft is correct
19:04:41 <fadi> ... so each one is encouraged to review the working draft
19:04:46 <fadi> ... and provide feedback
19:05:22 <fadi> s/is correct/ has the WG consensus/
19:05:28 <bhyland> Sandro: Appearance in a FPWD means there is consensus among the GLD WG.  It is an accurate representation of the published view of the GLD WG.
19:05:35 <mhausenblas> q?
19:05:37 <Zakim> -HadleyBeeman
19:05:39 <mhausenblas> ack sandro
19:05:46 <olyerickson> When you vote, you are agreeing that it should be published. There can be sections that are "undecided"
19:06:10 <olyerickson> s/When/My understanding is that when/
19:07:13 <mhausenblas> Michael: Iff we resolve on 23 Feb we can go public on 28 Feb
19:07:26 <mhausenblas> ... which means we show up on http://w3.org/TR/
19:07:28 <bhyland> PhilA: W3C MarComm team should be advised of the upcoming publication of the batch of FPWD from the GLD WG.
19:07:29 <sandro> "Government Linked Data Working Group proposes specs which will destroy the Internet, unless you comment now."
19:08:22 <PhilA> s/ MarComm/Comm/g
19:09:06 <fadi> sandro: after the working drafts are out, we still have to iterate and refine them towards
19:09:10 <fadi> ... the last drafts
19:09:23 <cygri> s/last drafts/last call drafts/
19:09:51 <Zakim> +HadleyBeeman
19:09:57 <cygri> (charter says LC in oct 2012)
19:09:59 <mhausenblas> q?
19:10:10 <fadi> PhilA: with vocabulary we can get to the last call draft faster than the rest
19:10:42 <olyerickson> +1 to mhausenblas "febuary" proposal. Now I must jump off call...
19:10:45 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #gld
19:10:53 <fadi> ... to speed up the process, we use the fact that the vocabularies are used currently
19:10:58 <Zakim> -olyerickson
19:10:59 <mhausenblas> Michael: thanks olyerickson and cya
19:11:04 <olyerickson> bye!
19:11:11 <cygri> thanks olyerickson!
19:11:21 <fadi> ... so we might be able to reduce the implementation face
19:11:22 <mhausenblas> q?
19:11:23 <HadleyBeeman> Bye olyerickson
19:11:28 <fadi> s/face/phase/
19:11:41 <gatemezi> @olyerickson : bye!
19:11:46 <mhausenblas> q?
19:12:08 <mhausenblas> ack me
19:12:08 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about people vocab contribution
19:12:46 <fadi> mhausenblas: re. representing people which is mentioned in the charter
19:12:57 <sandro> q?
19:13:04 <sandro> q+ to talk about people vocab
19:13:33 <fadi> ... I am afraid of ending up with  a very "shallow" vocabulary if we care too much about being compliant with every previous candidate
19:13:33 <mhausenblas> ack me
19:13:42 <fadi> ... I'd be glad to contribute there
19:13:52 <PhilA> +1 to bhyland
19:14:02 <HadleyBeeman> I suspect this may be some of the conversations that are coming out of PhilA's group… re unique identifiers for people (and the privacy implications)
19:14:29 <mhausenblas> q?
19:14:33 <mhausenblas> ack sandro
19:14:33 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about people vocab
19:15:04 <bhyland> mhausenblas: reviewed GLD WG charter and noted: People, such as elements of FOAF or vCard in RDF. This is an area for particular attention to privacy considerations.   Michael is willing to participate after FPWD re: privacy aspects ...
19:15:20 <cygri> q+
19:15:23 <fadi> sandro: "people" topic is particularly sensitive because it implied privacy concerns
19:15:40 <bhyland> s/Michael is willing/Michael is not willing
19:15:45 <fadi> ... schema.org is strong in regards of representing people
19:15:45 <stasinos> If the vocab forces that fields about people are filled in, the vocab might break privacy regulations
19:15:46 <PhilA> q+ to try and answer the privacy point made by mhausenblas
19:15:53 <bhyland> [14:15] <bhyland> s/Michael is willing/Michael is *not* willing/
19:15:59 <mhausenblas> Michael: yes, contribute to people and thanks to sandro I now understand what the privacy part means
19:16:08 <fadi> ... a lot of publishers would like to use schema.org fro representing people
19:16:12 <mhausenblas> Michael: I AM willing (after FPWD)
19:16:13 <bhyland> Sandro: Discussed schema.org's people vocab and we should give it due consideration.
19:16:28 <cygri> q?
19:16:36 <HadleyBeeman> sandro, don't Google and Bing still index other forms of mark-up? (RDFa and microformats)?
19:16:52 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
19:16:54 <cygri> ack me
19:16:56 <mhausenblas> q?
19:17:16 <fadi> cygri: one of the privacy concerns is the use of IFP
19:17:20 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about the 'usefulness' of people vocab
19:17:22 <mhausenblas> q?
19:17:25 <PhilA> ack me
19:17:25 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to try and answer the privacy point made by mhausenblas
19:17:29 <sandro> HadleyBeeman, RDFa and microformats are syntaxes --- the only vocab they plan to use is their own (I think -- that could perhaps change, too).
19:17:29 <fadi> ... for example foaf:homepage
19:18:07 <fadi> PhilA: there is an important distinction between describing person as individual animal vs. describing the identity
19:18:25 <mhausenblas> Michael: In fact, Google+Bing+Yahoo, parse microdata and RDFa lite
19:18:27 <mhausenblas> q?
19:18:33 <mhausenblas> ack me
19:18:33 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about the 'usefulness' of people vocab
19:18:36 <HadleyBeeman> sandro, right, but if the argument for using schema.org's vocabulary is that it is more indexible, then wouldn't it also hold for  the others?  
19:19:27 <sandro> HadleyBeeman, it would if schema.org had terms for these other uses cases, but I don't think they do (yet).
19:19:38 <fadi> mhausenblas: people are involved in many areas for example in organization description you need a point of contact
19:19:42 <mhausenblas> q?
19:19:47 <sandro> we COULD argue to schema.org that they should include these other terms we want.
19:19:59 <fadi> ... we need to know what makes sense from government perspective
19:20:22 <bhyland> q?
19:20:25 <bhyland> q+
19:20:31 <mhausenblas> http://xkcd.com/927/
19:20:34 <HadleyBeeman> Sandro: we could ask schema.org to include those other things… for futher conversation in the future.
19:20:54 <fadi> sandro: we could consider trying to add the ontologies as extension to schema.org
19:21:01 <George> q?
19:21:22 <mhausenblas> q+
19:21:27 <mhausenblas> ack bhyland 
19:21:37 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to bhyland for having a serious discussion and an informed opinion on what our relationship should be with schema.org for use in government.
19:21:46 <sandro> bhyland: We at least need a good answer for why not use schema.org, if we don't.
19:21:50 <fadi> mhausenblas: we might invite danbri as he is involved in schema.org
19:22:03 <fadi> ... AFAIK it is still very early
19:22:06 <cygri> +1 to having danbri talk to this
19:22:20 <fadi> ... as the process of extending  schema.org is not finalized yet
19:22:58 <mhausenblas> q?
19:23:00 <mhausenblas> ack me
19:23:23 <fadi> bhyland:  in a previous webcast they showed interest in adding government related vocabs to schema.org
19:23:46 <fadi> ... and encouraged people to act early
19:24:00 <sandro> +1 bhyland We need to have a conversation with the schema.org folks about whether do to do these vocabs in schema.org, or whatever.
19:24:15 <bhyland> What is the extension mechanism for adding gov't vocabs to schema.org. 
19:24:23 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to inviting Guha to speak to us
19:24:41 <mhausenblas> ACTION: bhyland to invite Vocab TF chair to talk about Schema.org extensions
19:24:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Invite Vocab TF chair to talk about Schema.org extensions [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-02].
19:24:45 <cygri> q?
19:25:01 <bhyland> ACTION: bhyland to invite RV Guha to speak at GLD WG telecon on extension mechanism for adding to schema.org
19:25:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Invite RV Guha to speak at GLD WG telecon on extension mechanism for adding to schema.org [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-02].
19:25:53 <fadi> sandro: there is a distinction between adding it and extending the schema through an extension mechanism
19:25:54 <mhausenblas> Michael: Exactly, sandro, the *Extension* mechanism is not (yet) defined
19:26:13 <fadi> ... I think the former is at this time better
19:26:36 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-44
19:26:36 <trackbot> ACTION-44 Invite Vocab TF chair to talk about Schema.org extensions closed
19:26:39 <bhyland> q?
19:26:54 <mhausenblas> q+ to say nothing more, really
19:27:16 <bhyland> PhilA: Any events happening in next 6 mos that we could leverage for next F2F.
19:27:20 <fadi> PhilA: an upcoming event... on the 21 June
19:27:37 <fadi> ... and 22nd "the digital agenda summit" in Brussel
19:28:04 <Mike_Pendleton> q+
19:28:05 <bhyland> ... June 21-22, 2012 in Brussells Digital Agenda Summit ... good place to meet possibly? Govies from EU in Brussels.
19:28:12 <mhausenblas> q-
19:28:17 <fadi> ... plenty of government people will be in Brussel
19:29:11 <HadleyBeeman> lanyrd.com?
19:29:24 <mhausenblas> http://xkcd.com/927/
19:29:37 <HadleyBeeman> that's for any conference
19:29:40 <dvilasuero> http://epsiplatform.eu/
19:29:41 <mhausenblas> http://epsiplatform.eu/news
19:29:48 <fadi> mhausenblas: a list of government-related events http://epsiplatform.eu/
19:29:56 <mhausenblas> q?
19:30:08 <HadleyBeeman> lanyrd.com does track by keywords… open data is one, linked data is another that theytrack
19:30:16 <fadi> Mike_Pendleton: Smetech is also interesting
19:30:40 <mhausenblas> Michael: Agreed, also outreach into WWW in Lyon
19:30:48 <fadi> bhyland: I submitted a talk there
19:30:49 <Mike_Pendleton_> Mike_Pendleton_ has joined #gld
19:30:58 <dvilasuero> +1 to WWW 
19:30:59 <HadleyBeeman> Also, I'm doing an open data workshop at WWW2012
19:32:26 <HadleyBeeman> http://www2012.wwwconference.org/
19:33:19 <HadleyBeeman> http://lanyrd.com/search/?context=future&q=open+data 
19:33:26 <gatemezi> @HadleyBeeman: could you provide  the link of the workshop on open data?
19:33:35 <HadleyBeeman> (sorry to bang on about this— but lanyrd.com is so easy to use!)
19:33:51 <George> thnx HadleyBeeman !
19:33:59 <George> q?
19:34:08 <George> ack Mike_Pendleton_ 
19:34:13 <bhyland> Mike_Pendleton asked about whether WG is giving a talk at SemTech West in June.  Answer: Yes, bhyland submitted one on behalf of the WG.
19:34:13 <Mike_Pendleton_> q-
19:34:28 <PhilA> q- Mike_Pendleton_
19:34:35 <George> ack Mike_Pendleton
19:34:38 <HadleyBeeman> For Gatemezi: Open Data in Practice workshop at WWW2012 (last on the page):  http://www.w3.org/2012/04/tuto-track.html
19:34:47 <fadi> mhausenblas: we can have a Google+ hangout for outreach
19:35:19 <mhausenblas> Michael: The nice thing is that we can record is as well, we can share screen and docs - once FPWD are out we can try this for an hour
19:35:49 <gatemezi> Thx bhyland!!
19:35:52 <fadi> bhyland: we need to be more active on the egov blog as well
19:35:55 <PhilA> q+ Pint of Smithwicks Please
19:36:29 <HadleyBeeman> Great to see you all!
19:36:42 <mhausenblas> glawway out!
19:36:47 <Zakim> -galway
19:36:59 <BenediktKaempgen> bye, thanks.
19:37:01 <PhilA> sandro: Are you taking care of the minutes?
19:37:11 <Zakim> -t_gheen
19:37:12 <DanG> bye
19:37:32 <HadleyBeeman> Bye, all.  Enjoy the pub(s)!
19:37:41 <Zakim> -HadleyBeeman
19:37:43 <sandro> PhilA, uh, sure.
19:37:55 <Zakim> -Washington
19:37:56 <PhilA> sandro: I should have said "please"
19:37:59 <Zakim> -sandro
19:37:59 <Zakim> -stasinos
19:38:00 <Zakim> SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM has ended
19:38:02 <Zakim> Attendees were galway, HadleyBeeman, fadi, PhilA, dvilasuero, cygri, mhausenblas, GofranShukair, BartvanLeeuwen, csarven, BenediktKaempgen, gatemezin, sandro, olyerickson,
19:38:05 <Zakim> ... GeraldSteeman, boris, Washington, t_gheen, spyroskotoulas, DeirdreLee, DaveReynolds, stasinos, +1.703.201.aaaa
19:38:11 <Yigal> Yigal has left #gld
19:38:19 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has left #gld
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