IRC log of dnt on 2011-12-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:57:26 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:57:26 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-irc
16:57:28 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
16:57:28 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #dnt
16:57:30 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
16:57:31 [trackbot]: Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:57:31 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:57:31 [trackbot]: Date: 21 December 2011
16:57:35 [npdoty]: Zakim, this will be dnt
16:57:35 [Zakim]: ok, npdoty, I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM already started
16:57:46 [npdoty]: Chair: schunter
16:57:50 [dsriedel]: dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:57:55 [Zakim]: + +1.202.326.aaaa
16:58:05 [efelten]: Zakim, aaaa is me
16:58:05 [Zakim]: +efelten; got it
16:58:12 [Zakim]: + +1.202.684.aabb
16:58:22 [aleecia]: regrets+ Jeff Chester
16:58:25 [jmayer]: jmayer has joined #dnt
16:58:27 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
16:58:34 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:58:34 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
16:58:42 [Zakim]: +npdoty
16:58:46 [Joanne]: Joanne has joined #DNT
16:59:01 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:59:03 [Zakim]: + +1.415.520.aacc
16:59:10 [schunter1]: Zakim, aabb is jmayer
16:59:10 [Zakim]: +jmayer; got it
16:59:15 [npdoty]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:59:15 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P25, aleecia, efelten, jmayer, [Apple], npdoty, +1.415.520.aacc, [IPcaller]
16:59:17 [enewland]: enewland has joined #dnt
16:59:17 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
16:59:20 [fwagner]: zakim, IPcaller is fwagner
16:59:20 [Zakim]: +fwagner; got it
16:59:26 [Zakim]: + +1.202.326.aadd
16:59:32 [npdoty]: Zakim, aacc is KevinT
16:59:32 [Zakim]: +KevinT; got it
16:59:34 [schunter1]: Zakim, aacc is KevinT
16:59:34 [Zakim]: sorry, schunter1, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:59:44 [KevinT]: KevinT has joined #dnt
17:00:01 [sidstamm]: sidstamm has joined #dnt
17:00:14 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
17:00:20 [npdoty]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00:20 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P25, aleecia, efelten, jmayer, [Apple], npdoty, KevinT, fwagner, +1.202.326.aadd, [Mozilla]
17:00:22 [sidstamm]: Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
17:00:23 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:00:24 [Zakim]: + +44.207.229.aaee
17:00:24 [Zakim]: +sidstamm; got it
17:00:28 [Zakim]: +justin
17:00:31 [Zakim]: + +1.916.641.aaff
17:00:33 [tedleung]: tedleung has joined #dnt
17:00:34 [tl]: zakim aaee is tl
17:00:40 [Zakim]: + +49.721.913.74.aagg
17:00:42 [enewland]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P25, aleecia, efelten, jmayer, [Apple], npdoty, KevinT, fwagner, +1.202.326.aadd, [Mozilla], +44.207.229.aaee, justin, +1.916.641.aaff, +49.721.913.74.aagg
17:00:45 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:00:45 [Zakim]: [Mozilla] has sidstamm
17:00:58 [enewland]: zakim, justin has enewland
17:00:58 [Zakim]: +enewland; got it
17:00:59 [tl]: zakim, aaee is tl
17:01:00 [Zakim]: +tl; got it
17:01:01 [Zakim]: + +1.650.862.aahh
17:01:03 [Joanne]: +1.916.641 is Joanne
17:01:04 [dsriedel]: zakim, aagg is dsriedel
17:01:04 [Zakim]: +dsriedel; got it
17:01:16 [npdoty]: Zakim, aaff is Joanne
17:01:16 [Zakim]: +Joanne; got it
17:01:17 [Zakim]: + +1.310.392.aaii
17:01:27 [npdoty]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:27 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P25, aleecia, efelten, jmayer, [Apple], npdoty, KevinT, fwagner, +1.202.326.aadd, [Mozilla], tl, justin, Joanne, dsriedel, +1.650.862.aahh, +1.310.392.aaii
17:01:30 [Zakim]: justin has enewland
17:01:30 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:01:31 [Zakim]: [Mozilla] has sidstamm
17:01:31 [Zakim]: + +1.202.629.aajj
17:01:32 [Zakim]: + +1.206.369.aakk
17:01:37 [carmenb]: carmenb has joined #dnt
17:01:41 [Zakim]: + +1.202.263.aall
17:01:46 [schunter1]: Nick: ??P25 is me.
17:01:46 [tedleung]: zakim, aakk is tedleung
17:01:46 [Zakim]: +tedleung; got it
17:01:53 [Zakim]: +??P46
17:01:56 [vincent]: vincent has joined #dnt
17:01:58 [npdoty]: Zakim, ??P25 is schunter
17:01:58 [tl]: it's frustrating that zakim doesn't recognize its name unless it is followed by a comma
17:01:59 [Zakim]: +schunter; got it
17:02:01 [carmenb]: 202629 is carmen
17:02:02 [JohnSimpson]: zakim, johnsimpson is 310-392-aaii
17:02:03 [Zakim]: sorry, JohnSimpson, I do not recognize a party named 'johnsimpson'
17:02:04 [chuck]: chuck has joined #dnt
17:02:10 [npdoty]: Zakim, aajj is carmenb
17:02:10 [Zakim]: +carmenb; got it
17:02:12 [Zakim]: + +1.646.654.aamm
17:02:18 [efelten]: Zakim, aaii is johnsimpson
17:02:18 [Zakim]: +johnsimpson; got it
17:02:21 [Chris]: Chris has joined #dnt
17:02:26 [npdoty]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see schunter, aleecia, efelten, jmayer, [Apple], npdoty, KevinT, fwagner, +1.202.326.aadd, [Mozilla], tl, justin, Joanne, dsriedel, +1.650.862.aahh, johnsimpson,
17:02:29 [Zakim]: ... carmenb, tedleung, +1.202.263.aall, ??P46, +1.646.654.aamm
17:02:30 [Zakim]: justin has enewland
17:02:32 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:02:33 [JohnSimpson]: thanks ed
17:02:33 [Zakim]: [Mozilla] has sidstamm
17:02:35 [Zakim]: + +1.404.394.aann
17:02:37 [Lia]: Lia has joined #dnt
17:03:02 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:03:05 [npdoty]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Dec/0142.html
17:03:15 [Zakim]: + +1.813.366.aaoo
17:03:38 [aleecia]: dsinger: thank you. I had not known that, and that's really helpful.
17:03:39 [aleecia]: .
17:03:53 [npdoty]: scribenick: jmayer
17:04:07 [alex]: alex has joined #dnt
17:04:07 [pedermagee]: pedermagee has joined #dnt
17:04:12 [JohnSimpson]: zakim, mute me
17:04:12 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should now be muted
17:04:15 [npdoty]: http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-dnt-minutes
17:04:17 [fielding]: fielding has joined #dnt
17:04:20 [dsriedel]: zakim, mute me
17:04:20 [Zakim]: dsriedel should now be muted
17:04:20 [jmayer]: schunter1: Comments on the minutes?
17:04:24 [Zakim]: + +1.646.825.aapp
17:04:30 [JC]: JC has joined #DNT
17:04:33 [jmayer]: ... Nope.
17:04:34 [dwainberg]: dwainberg has joined #dnt
17:04:40 [WileyS]: WileyS has joined #DNT
17:05:06 [jmayer]: ... Review of next face-to-face meeting logistics.
17:05:06 [tl]: +q
17:05:08 [Zakim]: + +1.202.695.aaqq
17:05:12 [Zakim]: +fielding
17:05:21 [Zakim]: + +1.408.349.aarr
17:05:24 [Zakim]: + +1.202.744.aass
17:05:29 [tl]: -q
17:05:42 [schunter1]: Avenue de Beaulieu 25, Brussels
17:06:02 [efelten]: Zakim, aadd is pedermagee
17:06:03 [Zakim]: +pedermagee; got it
17:06:11 [eberkower]: eberkower has joined #dnt
17:06:36 [schunter1]: http://www.novotel.com/gb/hotel-2122-novotel-brussels-centre-tour-noire/index.shtml
17:07:10 [npdoty]: http://ec.europa.eu/oib/buildings_en.cfm
17:08:10 [jmayer]: ... Discussion of where the meeting might be, where to get a hotel.
17:08:51 [jmayer]: ... Brussels has good public transportation, isn't large.
17:09:20 [jmayer]: ... There may be an outreach event.
17:09:47 [Zakim]: + +1.202.326.aatt
17:09:49 [cOlsen]: cOlsen has joined #dnt
17:10:04 [aleecia]: (my wishes for feeling better soon, and could the person coughing please mute?)
17:10:07 [JC]: Conference Computers, Privacy and Data Protection same week
17:10:16 [efelten]: Zakim, aatt is cOlsen
17:10:16 [Zakim]: +cOlsen; got it
17:10:19 [JC]: ... in Brussels
17:10:32 [aleecia]: zakim, who is talking?
17:10:36 [dsinger]: zakim, who is making noise?
17:10:49 [Zakim]: aleecia, listening for 14 seconds I heard sound from the following: schunter (41%)
17:11:01 [Zakim]: dsinger, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds
17:11:10 [aleecia]: sigh.
17:11:18 [tl]: apparently, the noisemaker has found a way to hide from zakim...
17:11:46 [jmayer]: zakim, who is talking?
17:11:57 [Zakim]: jmayer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: schunter (58%)
17:12:10 [dsinger]: zakim, who is making noise?
17:12:18 [tl]: +q
17:12:22 [Zakim]: dsinger, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
17:12:38 [schunter1]: Is there a mute all command?
17:12:42 [npdoty]: Zakim, mute all
17:12:42 [Zakim]: sorry, npdoty, I do not know which phone connection belongs to all
17:13:00 [aleecia]: zakim, mute me
17:13:00 [Zakim]: aleecia should now be muted
17:13:08 [schunter1]: zakim, mute me
17:13:08 [Zakim]: schunter should now be muted
17:13:12 [tl]: zakim, muteme
17:13:12 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'muteme', tl
17:13:15 [jmayer]: HAHAHAHA!
17:13:15 [alex]: zakim, mute me
17:13:15 [Zakim]: sorry, alex, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:13:16 [tl]: zakim, mute me
17:13:17 [Zakim]: tl should now be muted
17:13:18 [schunter1]: zakim, unmute me
17:13:18 [Zakim]: schunter should no longer be muted
17:13:22 [efelten]: Zakim, who is on the phone
17:13:22 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', efelten
17:13:25 [JohnSimpson]: zakim, mute me
17:13:25 [Zakim]: johnsimpson was already muted, JohnSimpson
17:13:27 [fwagner]: zakim, mute me
17:13:27 [Zakim]: fwagner should now be muted
17:13:32 [aleecia]: zakim, who is on the call
17:13:32 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the call', aleecia
17:13:35 [tl]: zakim, mute alex carmenb chris chuck colsen dsinger
17:13:35 [Zakim]: I don't understand you, tl
17:13:35 [npdoty]: issue-4?
17:13:35 [trackbot]: ISSUE-4 -- What is the default for DNT in client configuration (opt-in or opt-out)? -- pending review
17:13:35 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/4
17:13:36 [jmayer]: zakim, mute me
17:13:37 [Zakim]: jmayer should now be muted
17:13:51 [Joanne]: zakim, mute me
17:13:51 [Zakim]: Joanne should now be muted
17:13:56 [tedleung]: finally
17:14:02 [aleecia]: q?
17:14:12 [npdoty]: ack tl
17:14:25 [npdoty]: can you repeat that>
17:14:30 [aleecia]: ...?
17:14:57 [jmayer]: +q
17:14:59 [aleecia]: can you paste the text in?
17:15:06 [jmayer]: ... Discussion of ISSUE-4.
17:15:09 [npdoty]: so we're agreed that it's up to the user agent to determine how to decide the user's preference?
17:15:12 [npdoty]: q?
17:15:15 [Zakim]: - +1.202.263.aall
17:15:17 [npdoty]: ack jmayer
17:15:19 [tl]: +q
17:15:31 [dsinger]: issue-13?
17:15:31 [trackbot]: ISSUE-13 -- What are the requirements for DNT on apps/native software in addition to browsers? -- pending review
17:15:31 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/13
17:15:32 [npdoty]: schunter1, hang on, we have comments on issue 4
17:15:40 [jmayer]: tl: We addressed this some time ago in October.
17:15:42 [npdoty]: schunter1, hang on, look at the q
17:15:56 [npdoty]: q?
17:15:57 [tl]: -q
17:15:59 [npdoty]: ack jmayer
17:15:59 [schunter1]: q?
17:16:01 [jmayer]: schunter1: Ok, we're close, suggest moving.
17:16:06 [schunter1]: q?
17:16:07 [jmayer]: zakim, unmute me
17:16:08 [Zakim]: jmayer was not muted, jmayer
17:16:36 [amyc]: amyc has joined #dnt
17:17:03 [aleecia]: text on issue-4:
17:17:13 [aleecia]: PROPOSED LANGUAGE in FPWD:
17:17:13 [aleecia]: The goal of this protocol is to allow a user to express their personal
17:17:13 [aleecia]: preference regarding cross-site tracking to each server and web
17:17:14 [aleecia]: application that they communicate with via HTTP, thereby allowing each
17:17:15 [aleecia]: server to either adjust their behavior to meet the user's expectations
17:17:15 [aleecia]: or reach a separate agreement with the user to satisfy both parties.
17:17:16 [aleecia]: Key to that notion of expression is that it must reflect the user's
17:17:18 [aleecia]: preference, not the preference of some institutional or
17:17:20 [aleecia]: network-imposed mechanism outside the user's control.
17:17:20 [tl]: +q
17:17:22 [aleecia]: The remainder of this specification defines the protocol in terms of
17:17:24 [aleecia]: whether DNT is enabled or not enabled. We do not specify how that
17:17:26 [aleecia]: preference is configured: the user agent is responsible for
17:17:28 [aleecia]: determining the user experience by which this preference is set.
17:17:30 [aleecia]: For example, a user might configure their own user agent to tell
17:17:32 [aleecia]: servers "do not track me cross-site", install a plug-in or extension
17:17:34 [aleecia]: that is specifically designed to add that expression, or make a choice
17:17:36 [aleecia]: for privacy that then implicitly includes a tracking preference (e.g.,
17:17:38 [aleecia]: "Privacy settings: high"). For each of these cases, we say that DNT is
17:17:40 [aleecia]: enabled.
17:17:42 [aleecia]: +1 on that
17:17:57 [aleecia]: +q
17:18:05 [aleecia]: zakim, unmute me
17:18:05 [Zakim]: aleecia should no longer be muted
17:18:14 [tl]: unmute me
17:18:20 [jmayer]: jmayer: Clarifying the standard of review for PENDING REVIEW -> CLOSED. Suggest consensus on text is necessary.
17:18:25 [tl]: zakim, unmute me
17:18:25 [Zakim]: tl was not muted, tl
17:19:19 [aleecia]: q?
17:19:24 [schunter1]: q?
17:19:42 [aleecia]: yep
17:19:53 [npdoty]: scribenick: aleecia
17:19:56 [JohnSimpson]: zakim, unmute me
17:19:56 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should no longer be muted
17:20:02 [aleecia]: tl: was the text in the FPWD the same as when we agreed prior?
17:20:32 [Zakim]: + +1.206.658.aauu
17:20:38 [aleecia]: jmayer: language is about personal preference, with is a value suggested by Mozilla, others by user expectation.
17:21:20 [aleecia]: …key to that is user's preference, not set by institution. We talked about SHOULDs, and where institutions SHOULD NOT
17:21:27 [npdoty]: +1, I'm not sure I like this institutional language, which I thought was covered by Issue 95
17:21:29 [fielding]: The goal of this protocol is to allow a user to express their personal preference regarding cross-site tracking to each server and web application that they communicate with via HTTP, thereby allowing each server to either adjust their behavior to meet the user's expectations or reach a separate agreement with the user to satisfy both parties. Key to that notion of expression is that it must reflect the user's preference, not the preference of some institution
17:21:29 [fielding]: network-imposed mechanism outside the user's control.
17:21:30 [fielding]: The remainder of this specification defines the protocol in terms of whether DNT is enabled or not enabled. We do not specify how that preference is configured: the user agent is responsible for determining the user experience by which this preference is set.
17:21:31 [fielding]: For example, a user might configure their own user agent to tell servers "do not track me cross-site", install a plug-in or extension that is specifically designed to add that expression, or make a choice for privacy that then implicitly includes a tracking preference (e.g., "Privacy settings: high"). For each of these cases, we say that DNT is enabled.
17:22:01 [aleecia]: tl: text language in defaults in user agents was agreed on 26th, but may not be in WD. also discussed at f2f, with recommendations for non-user agents
17:22:30 [aleecia]: matthias: should be user preference
17:22:36 [npdoty]: I'm not sure the text concludes that there shouldn't be a default
17:22:58 [KevinT]: +q
17:23:12 [KevinT]: point re: mobile apps I would like to raise
17:23:17 [schunter1]: q?
17:23:25 [aleecia]: jmayer: language doesn't convey what I agree with: "conveys a user preference" isn't what I'd like. If you get DNT:1, you have to honor it regardless if set by institution. Then discussion of what institutions should & shouldn't do.
17:23:34 [schunter1]: q?
17:23:37 [npdoty]: ack tl
17:23:38 [aleecia]: jmayer: you're taking a position of where it can be set
17:23:46 [npdoty]: scribenick: jmayer
17:23:48 [JohnSimpson]: q?
17:23:59 [schunter1]: q?
17:24:00 [jmayer]: tl: Recall the institutional language is separate from the default language.
17:24:00 [npdoty]: ack aleecia
17:24:58 [schunter1]: Aleecia: tri-value: yes/no/not set.
17:24:59 [npdoty]: who wants to take on the action to re-draft that text?
17:25:01 [jmayer]: Aleecia: Good discussion on this on mailing list. Suggestion was three-way setting: DNT-1, DNT-0, DNT-unset. Don't think that agreement is captured by language, is important. Would like it to be airtight. Suggest one more round of language edits.
17:25:37 [fielding]: umm, disagree … the language reflects the intended seamantics
17:25:44 [Zakim]: -tl
17:25:49 [jmayer]: schunter1: On Issue 4, there's agreement in principle, we'll work on smoothing language and try to close next time.
17:26:01 [tl]: i can do it
17:26:06 [tl]: [just got diconnected[
17:26:16 [jmayer]: schunter1: Looking for volunteers to redraft.
17:27:02 [Zakim]: +tl
17:27:03 [jmayer]: +q
17:27:18 [jmayer]: roy: This needs to be about user choice.
17:27:39 [npdoty]: are the default settings in my browser not considered to be my preference?
17:27:48 [jmayer]: aleecia: I'm thinking about a three-state header, a separate issue.
17:27:55 [jwilson]: jwilson has joined #dnt
17:28:00 [dsinger]: q+
17:28:14 [aleecia]: issue-78?
17:28:14 [trackbot]: ISSUE-78 -- What is the difference between absence of DNT header and DNT = 0? -- pending review
17:28:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/78
17:28:33 [jmayer]: roy: You're thinking about issue 78.
17:28:38 [jmayer]: aleecia: Yep.
17:28:52 [jmayer]: aleecia: This should be a user preference.
17:28:55 [npdoty]: q?
17:28:58 [npdoty]: q?
17:28:59 [npdoty]: q?
17:29:02 [npdoty]: q?
17:29:10 [schunter1]: q?
17:29:13 [npdoty]: ack KevinT
17:29:27 [npdoty]: ack jmayer
17:30:22 [aleecia]: jmayer: language should be one on user agents, and one on <?>. Renaming these issues to be clearer.
17:30:51 [npdoty]: s/<?>/institution or proxy/
17:30:54 [aleecia]: … Want to make clear, for what it's worth, don't have my support on issue-4. Don't see it as necessarily about user expression
17:31:10 [aleecia]: … without getting into that debate now, let's make that an explicit issue.
17:31:39 [sidstamm]: +1 on jmayer's plan of action (though I may not agree with his position)
17:31:42 [aleecia]: … What intermediaries get to do & not do should stay open, but closing issue-4 is ok
17:31:44 [schunter1]: q?
17:31:52 [npdoty]: does issue-95 cover jmayer's concern on intermediaries?
17:31:57 [tl]: +q
17:32:22 [aleecia]: … language in issue-4 conflates outcomes and motivation, let's have a section on what browsers can do by default and one section on intermediaries
17:32:36 [aleecia]: schunter: closing issue-4
17:32:47 [fielding]: I think the intermediary issue is 81
17:32:59 [aleecia]: … disagree user agent should set DNT on user preference?
17:33:12 [npdoty]: fielding, 81 is the response header issue
17:33:16 [aleecia]: jmayer: if user sets, of course. Debate is about defaults.
17:33:20 [sidstamm]: +q
17:33:33 [aleecia]: … if browser or network provider has it on by default, that's different; we should talk about that more
17:33:41 [schunter1]: q?
17:33:44 [aleecia]: yours
17:33:47 [npdoty]: ack dsinger
17:33:55 [tl]: -q
17:34:09 [aleecia]: scribenick: jmayer
17:34:16 [jmayer]: dsinger: If we say "it's a user preference," what can a service do if it knows it was set by an intermediary.
17:34:26 [fielding]: yes, that is what the language is intended to say
17:34:38 [npdoty]: +1 on the concern
17:34:45 [tl]: +1
17:35:05 [schunter1]: q?
17:35:08 [schunter1]: q?
17:35:10 [jmayer]: schunter1: Server shouldn't be able to blame intermediaries. DNT: 1 means DNT: 1.
17:35:12 [npdoty]: fielding, you do believe that a server should be able to ignore the signal if it thinks an intermediary inserted the preference?
17:35:28 [kj]: kj has joined #dnt
17:35:29 [jmayer]: roy: If DNT: 1 isn't a user preference, I'm going to ignore it.
17:35:42 [JC]: How does one know if it is a user preference or not?
17:36:48 [jmayer]: roy: There are possible bugs in intermediaries and servers, might have to ignore headers for implementaton.
17:37:02 [JohnSimpson]: agree with JC, how do you know if user preference or not?
17:37:11 [schunter1]: Roy makes a case that if buggy headers are received, then server implementors may ignore the flag.
17:37:16 [jmayer]: schunter1: If a company puts on DNT for employees, servers should honor that.
17:37:37 [jmayer]: roy: Might allow from small companies, not large companies.
17:37:45 [jmayer]: Why, Roy?
17:37:47 [sidstamm]: this is good conversation, but I don't see how this is about issue 4 anymore...
17:37:52 [jmayer]: +q
17:37:56 [fwagner]: do not agree with Matthias - this can be done by central browser settings of the company
17:38:00 [schunter1]: Example: certain proxy sets DNT=1 by default.
17:38:08 [schunter1]: SQUID...
17:38:18 [jmayer]: What if the intermediary only sets if no header present?
17:38:19 [schunter1]: q?
17:38:48 [jmayer]: roy: If we allow this, why not just punt to regulators?
17:38:53 [jmayer]: q-
17:38:54 [tlr]: tlr has joined #dnt
17:39:27 [schunter1]: q?
17:39:27 [aleecia]: meanwhile, issue-13 proposed text in FPWD:
17:39:30 [aleecia]: This specification uses the term user agent to refer to any of the
17:39:30 [aleecia]: various client programs capable of initiating HTTP requests,
17:39:30 [tl]: q?
17:39:30 [aleecia]: including, but not limited to, browsers, spiders (web-based robots),
17:39:30 [aleecia]: command-line tools, native applications, and mobile apps [HTTP11].
17:39:33 [npdoty]: we still have a comment on issue-13 from KevinT
17:39:34 [fielding]: If DNT is not a user preference then there is no reason to waste the bytes and time by adding it to the protocol -- we should just give up and rely on regulators to state the requirements on data sharing.
17:39:36 [schunter1]: q?
17:39:40 [npdoty]: ack sidstamm
17:39:45 [jmayer]: schunter1: Moving on.
17:39:58 [sidstamm]: a?
17:40:00 [sidstamm]: q?
17:40:03 [sidstamm]: q+
17:40:06 [sidstamm]: I'll wait until kevin is done
17:40:15 [tl]: +q
17:40:32 [sidstamm]: we're not talking about issue 13 yet are we?
17:40:41 [jmayer]: KevinT: Mobile use case - what about platform intermediaries? Maybe not necessarily mobile only. Non-browser apps.
17:40:54 [alex]: alex is AlexDeliyannis
17:40:54 [schunter1]: let's revisit ISSUE-13
17:41:08 [alex]: zakim, alex is AlexDeliyannis
17:41:08 [Zakim]: sorry, alex, I do not recognize a party named 'alex'
17:41:09 [schunter1]: q?
17:41:46 [jmayer]: e.g. an OS-wide DNT flag.
17:41:47 [schunter1]: q?
17:42:02 [aleecia]: tl: this is about issue-13 text, I believe
17:42:04 [sidstamm]: q-
17:42:11 [aleecia]: um, sorry about the : there
17:42:16 [sidstamm]: queue is not workin' for me today.
17:42:38 [JohnSimpson]: q?
17:42:42 [schunter1]: ack tl
17:43:08 [jmayer]: tl: There's an implementation of this in Boot to Gecko. Can set DNT preference in OS, any app can read from JavaScript API. Might even allow modifying in future.
17:43:14 [aleecia]: I think what Tom is saying is lovely, but doesn't address how we might (or might not) change issue-13?
17:43:19 [jmayer]: roy: This seems like out of scope configuration.
17:43:44 [schunter1]: q?
17:43:45 [npdoty]: sidstamm, did you still want to comment on issue-4?
17:43:56 [Zakim]: -KevinT
17:44:12 [dsinger]: issue-13?
17:44:12 [trackbot]: ISSUE-13 -- What are the requirements for DNT on apps/native software in addition to browsers? -- pending review
17:44:12 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/13
17:44:13 [Zakim]: +KevinT
17:44:16 [jmayer]: schunter1: Closed Issue 4, moved to Issue 13.
17:44:22 [sidstamm]: thank you
17:44:22 [jmayer]: +q
17:44:22 [schunter1]: q?
17:44:32 [npdoty]: ack jmayer
17:44:56 [aleecia]: jmayer: on issue-13, talking about language for non-web apps?
17:45:18 [dsinger]: I cannot see how it is relevant what the name of the software the user uses is; 'browser', 'help viewer', 'application', etc...
17:45:37 [dsinger]: q+
17:45:45 [aleecia]: jmayer: would suggest we add non-normative language on how this might apply elsewhere. We're focused on web context, but smart phones and tablets shouldn't be back to square one when what we do translates there.
17:46:04 [aleecia]: …the spec is targeted to the web, but could be in a native environment; we might note that.
17:46:30 [aleecia]: schunter: all we do relates to HTTP. issue-13 says doesn't apply if not HTTP. resist the idea of extending
17:46:37 [dsinger]: yes, we're talking about HTTP user agents (at the user end)
17:46:45 [aleecia]: schunter: can have different specs on different protocols
17:47:08 [sidstamm]: +1 on dsinger's point -- lets focus on HTTP user agents (all software that speaks HTTP for the user)
17:47:16 [aleecia]: dsinger: agree. Don't care if it's a browser, application, etc. - HTTP, we're done.
17:47:21 [fwagner]: +1 on davids point
17:47:39 [aleecia]: schunter: if it's not HTTP, it's not covered. Could be another spec
17:47:50 [dsinger]: also agree we're in HTTP only (for now)
17:48:34 [aleecia]: jmayer: Suggests two things. First, note this applies to mobile more broadly than some read it, should clarify. Second, if we're scoping this to HTTP, would be a shame if a company said "fine, we'll use FTP"
17:48:58 [aleecia]: …at minimum some non-normative language around SPDY. failing to future-proof
17:49:00 [schunter1]: q?
17:49:01 [npdoty]: I think jmayer's point is that we could have a non-normative comment to suggest that this could apply to other protocols (which I could support)
17:49:12 [aleecia]: +1 personally
17:49:36 [aleecia]: dsinger: We're defining an HTTP header. We don't need to say anything at all about other protocols
17:49:42 [aleecia]: …can extend later, or others can
17:50:05 [aleecia]: jmayer: don't agree. Don't see why saying things non-normative would be out of scope
17:50:21 [aleecia]: dsinger: happy to read text you propose but don't see how you could do it
17:50:26 [sidstamm]: I think this is a new issue
17:50:36 [npdoty]: dsinger: I'm not sure how you'd do it, but I'm happy to read text you propose.
17:50:37 [aleecia]: schunter: suggest closing this, but can perhaps take a new issue for non-normative
17:50:46 [aleecia]: scribenick: jmayer
17:50:51 [schunter1]: q?
17:51:05 [npdoty]: what would the new issue be called?
17:51:25 [schunter1]: ack dsinger
17:51:31 [sidstamm]: "should the TPE be extended to other protocols?"
17:51:49 [aleecia]: (Sid's title works for me)
17:51:50 [fielding]: jmayer, sorry missed your q on IRC … the reason for deliberately ignoring portions of the network that override user preferences is because we are trying to develop a protocol that behavioral advertising networks will be willing to adhere to as a reasonable cost of business. Sending a corporate preference or an ISP preference is not reasonable -- it means we just won't implement this protocol, and would instead go back to cookie-based, non-standard means of
17:51:50 [fielding]: determining that preference which would less likely be gamed by intermediaries.
17:52:00 [aleecia]: (perhaps "beyond HTTP" at the end)
17:52:17 [npdoty]: ISSUE: should/could the tracking preference expression be extended to other protocols beyond HTTP?
17:52:17 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-108 - Should/could the tracking preference expression be extended to other protocols beyond HTTP? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/108/edit .
17:52:21 [aleecia]: text on issue-78:
17:52:21 [jmayer]: schunter1: Moving to Issue 78.
17:52:25 [aleecia]: The DNT field-value sent by a user agent must begin with the character
17:52:26 [aleecia]: "1" (%x31) if DNT is enabled and there is not, to the user agent's
17:52:26 [aleecia]: knowledge, a specific exception for the origin server targeted by this
17:52:26 [aleecia]: request. If DNT is enabled and there is a specific exception for the
17:52:26 [aleecia]: target origin server via some mechanism understood by the user agent,
17:52:27 [aleecia]: then the DNT field-value sent by a user agent must begin with the
17:52:28 [aleecia]: character "0" (%x30).
17:53:04 [aleecia]: so I'm not seeing "unsent"?
17:53:08 [dsinger]: issue-78?
17:53:08 [trackbot]: ISSUE-78 -- What is the difference between absence of DNT header and DNT = 0? -- pending review
17:53:08 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/78
17:53:10 [aleecia]: Maybe I'm missing something
17:53:14 [schunter1]: q?
17:53:24 [WileyS]: +q
17:53:32 [amyc]: on 78, I think DNT0 should be non-exclusive means for indicating user override
17:53:44 [jmayer]: roy: Some request for clarifications on intermediaries.
17:53:44 [aleecia]: (jmayer, you're scribing?)
17:53:45 [amyc]: user agent may not know about override
17:53:48 [sidstamm]: +1 to dsinger
17:53:55 [jmayer]: dsinger: No header is a separate state.
17:54:01 [WileyS]: +q
17:54:09 [jmayer]: roy: Ok.
17:54:16 [WileyS]: Are we using the queue today?
17:54:23 [dsinger]: q?
17:54:23 [schunter1]: sometimes ;-)
17:54:26 [npdoty]: ack WileyS
17:55:46 [npdoty]: Shane is suggesting that we could consider other values besides 0 and 1 (to be discussed later in this call, if we stick to agenda)
17:56:02 [npdoty]: q+
17:56:02 [schunter1]: q?
17:56:08 [jmayer]: WileyS: Issue 78 is a broader issue about DNT values. We haven't fully set out the structure of those values. Could close if absence of header is DNT: 0 (?).
17:56:18 [sidstamm]: q+
17:56:26 [aleecia]: ack npdoty
17:56:32 [sidstamm]: q-
17:56:37 [sidstamm]: agree with npdoty
17:56:44 [Zakim]: -justin
17:56:47 [jmayer]: npdoty: This is about what an unset header means. That's it. Think we can close it with some clarification.
17:56:51 [jmayer]: +1
17:56:54 [WileyS]: Agreed - current langauge proposes what DNT:0 means - would strip that.
17:56:57 [schunter1]: Unset means either that DNT is not enabled or that the user agent (maybe old) does not support DNT.
17:57:07 [aleecia]: um.
17:57:10 [sidstamm]: lack of header does not imply any value
17:57:16 [aleecia]: +1 sid
17:57:18 [WileyS]: +1
17:57:23 [JohnSimpson]: +1
17:57:34 [npdoty]: so should we move on beyond issue-78? (currently hearing silence)
17:57:40 [eberkower]: I hear silence\
17:57:41 [schunter1]: q?
17:57:52 [aleecia]: I'm not sure the text captures that, but perhaps it will when we have multiple issues all together in place?
17:58:00 [eberkower]: ah - much better
17:58:24 [JC]: +1 sid
17:58:24 [jmayer]: matthias1: Would clarify - absence of a header means not enabled or not supported, don't say what 0 means.
17:58:27 [jmayer]: q+
17:58:33 [fwagner]: +q
17:58:52 [schunter1]: q?
17:59:02 [npdoty]: ack jmayer
17:59:44 [aleecia]: jmayer: If you don't see a header, it's a different state.
18:00:05 [aleecia]: … not "unspecified or the same thing as DNT:0" which is not what we've agreed upon
18:00:13 [JohnSimpson]: q=
18:00:14 [schunter1]: q?
18:00:16 [aleecia]: …it is a separate state of there's nothing here
18:00:18 [jmayer]: scribenick: jmayer
18:00:21 [JohnSimpson]: +q
18:00:31 [fwagner]: zakim, unmute me
18:00:31 [Zakim]: fwagner should no longer be muted
18:00:32 [fielding]: q+
18:00:41 [aleecia]: ack fwagner
18:00:41 [npdoty]: ack fwagner
18:00:51 [Zakim]: - +1.206.658.aauu
18:01:40 [aleecia]: That's a rather large suggestion. Frank, what do you have in mind?
18:01:40 [jmayer]: +q
18:01:51 [jmayer]: fwagner: Unsure if we defined the default state. Default may vary by language or region.
18:02:09 [jmayer]: matthias1: DNT: 1 and 0 are preferences. Otherwise, send nothing.
18:02:26 [JohnSimpson]: -q
18:02:31 [fielding]: That may be my mistake … I could have sworn I added the text that Aleecia sent about no header meaning that no preference given (and other defaults may depend on region, other cookies, etc.) … but now I can't find it in TPE
18:02:40 [Zakim]: -[Mozilla]
18:03:29 [schunter1]: q?
18:04:01 [aleecia]: Ah! That's where Frank was going.
18:04:12 [aleecia]: I'm pretty sure we didn't remove it at the f2f
18:04:17 [jmayer]: roy: Thought I added text about no header = up to region, just no expressed preference.
18:04:24 [schunter1]: ACTION: rfielding revise language in spec to address ISSUE-78
18:04:24 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - rfielding
18:04:36 [schunter1]: ACTION: fielding revise language in spec to address ISSUE-78
18:04:36 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-41 - Revise language in spec to address ISSUE-78 [on Roy Fielding - due 2011-12-28].
18:04:53 [fielding]: Section 5: If no DNT preference is received, it may indicate either that the user has chosen to allow cross-site tracking or that their user agent does not support this protocol for expressing DNT (e.g., user agents deployed prior to this protocol's existence). In the absence of regulatory, legal, or other requirements, servers are free to interpret the lack of a DNT header as they find most appropriate for the given user, particularly when considered in light
18:04:53 [fielding]: the user's privacy expectations and cultural circumstances.
18:04:55 [aleecia]: We might need to review half a dozen issues together
18:05:05 [dsinger]: issue-81?
18:05:05 [aleecia]: issue-81 suggestion:
18:05:05 [trackbot]: ISSUE-81 -- Do we need a response at all from server? -- pending review
18:05:05 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/81
18:05:08 [aleecia]: We currently discuss the format of the headers and under what
18:05:08 [aleecia]: conditions they shall be sent. The fact that a header is needed in
18:05:08 [aleecia]: some cases seems to be no longer disputed at this point.
18:05:20 [jmayer]: schunter1: moving on to issue 81
18:05:44 [schunter1]: q?
18:05:45 [fielding]: q+
18:05:46 [jmayer]: -q
18:05:53 [jmayer]: ... think issue 81 can be closed
18:06:01 [jmayer]: roy: I sent a response on this to the mailing list.
18:06:43 [dsinger]: how frequently? in what way?
18:07:03 [schunter1]: q?
18:07:05 [jmayer]: schunter1: We'll discuss in other issues when the response should be sent, what it'll look like.
18:07:07 [schunter1]: ack fielding
18:07:08 [fielding]: q-
18:07:27 [aleecia]: Happy to close with a note of "yes" and pointer to other issues
18:07:36 [aleecia]: PROPOSED Resolution FPWD:
18:07:36 [aleecia]: DNT-extension = %x21-2B / %x2D-7E ; visible ASCII
18:07:37 [aleecia]: except ","
18:07:39 [npdoty]: issue-47, issue-48, issue-51, 105, 106, 107 also relevant to specifics about what kind of response
18:07:40 [jmayer]: schunter1: Moving to issue 82.
18:07:41 [dsinger]: issue-82?
18:07:41 [trackbot]: ISSUE-82 -- Should the DNT header be extensible with additional parameters? -- pending review
18:07:41 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/82
18:08:04 [schunter1]: q?
18:08:11 [schunter1]: q?
18:08:20 [jmayer]: ... Thinking we have good enough language to close the issue.
18:08:23 [jmayer]: ... Closing.
18:08:36 [tl]: +q
18:08:41 [aleecia]: issue-84 -
18:08:42 [jmayer]: schunter1: Moving to Issue 84.
18:08:43 [aleecia]: PROPOSED Resolution FPWD:
18:08:44 [aleecia]: Section 4.2 contains a proposal of the Dom interfaces:
18:08:44 [aleecia]: www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-dnt.html
18:08:57 [Zakim]: -fielding
18:09:01 [Zakim]: + +1.949.573.aavv
18:09:04 [WileyS]: We address this a bit in Issue 31
18:09:09 [aleecia]: So again issue-84 to be closed with "yes"?
18:09:10 [jmayer]: ... There's a proposed JavaScript API.
18:09:14 [schunter1]: q?
18:09:15 [fielding]: Zakim, aavv is fielding
18:09:15 [Zakim]: +fielding; got it
18:09:41 [jmayer]: tl: Problem - any client-side exception list necessarily has conflict with a DOM flag. Generating inconsistencies between the two.
18:09:44 [dsinger]: issue-84?
18:09:44 [trackbot]: ISSUE-84 -- Do we need a JavaScript API / DOM property for client-side js access to Do Not Track status? -- pending review
18:09:44 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/84
18:10:45 [jmayer]: tl: Problems with embedded scripts.
18:11:09 [jmayer]: schunter1: Solution?
18:11:10 [jmayer]: +q
18:11:14 [npdoty]: ack tl
18:11:18 [jmayer]: tl: Nope, this is a solution.
18:11:30 [Zakim]: - +1.404.394.aann
18:11:33 [jmayer]: s/solution/problem/
18:11:42 [tl]: jmayer, this is a solution?
18:12:18 [jmayer]: schunter1: Suggest accepting language, postponing.
18:12:45 [Zakim]: - +1.813.366.aaoo
18:13:11 [schunter1]: q?
18:13:18 [jmayer]: tl: No. This is a fundamental problem. HTTP perspective != DOM perspective, no solution for the problem.
18:13:19 [jmayer]: +q
18:13:23 [jmayer]: +q
18:13:25 [jmayer]: +q
18:13:35 [Zakim]: + +1.813.366.aaww
18:13:36 [WileyS]: LOL
18:13:47 [alex]: zakim aaww is alex
18:13:50 [npdoty]: ack jmayer
18:14:00 [npdoty]: Zakim, aaww is alex
18:14:00 [Zakim]: +alex; got it
18:15:12 [npdoty]: jmayer: I agree with tl on the problems, per my slides from Princeton. One easy way to implement would be for the server to insert into its own JavaScript the status of DNT.
18:15:25 [npdoty]: ... for now avoid implementing a DOM API and just suggest to servers that this would be one easy way to do it
18:15:25 [schunter1]: q?
18:16:16 [jmayer]: aleecia: Sid dropped, he wants to be involved in this.
18:16:37 [jmayer]: tl: Support dropping explicit API, non-normative language for workaround.
18:16:42 [schunter1]: ACTION: jmayer proposes non-normative language to obtain DNT info in Javascript; would replace DOM-API
18:16:43 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-42 - Proposes non-normative language to obtain DNT info in Javascript; would replace DOM-API [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2011-12-28].
18:16:49 [npdoty]: so we should continue discussion of this issue on the mailing list? unless everyone is willing to give up on the DOM proposal
18:17:02 [aleecia]: mailing list sounds good to me
18:17:17 [JohnSimpson]: mailing list sounds good
18:17:26 [jmayer]: schunter1: Moving to Roy's proposal on response headers.
18:17:49 [jmayer]: roy: Nothing to present today.
18:18:12 [npdoty]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Dec/0118.html
18:18:48 [jmayer]: schunter1: Moving to site-specific exceptions.
18:19:33 [jmayer]: npdoty: Reviewing Shane's proposal. User agent-managed exceptions. Third-party only has to pay attention to the DNT value it receives.
18:19:54 [jmayer]: ... User agent prompts for exception. Exceptions stored as (first party, third party).
18:19:55 [tl]: +q
18:20:09 [jmayer]: ... Some open Qs on fingerprinting, JS-accessible list of exceptions.
18:20:16 [schunter1]: q?
18:20:32 [aleecia]: Things I like about this: not cookie based; matches exception for a third party to the first party context
18:20:41 [aleecia]: ack tl
18:21:10 [WileyS]: +q
18:21:23 [jmayer]: tl: Like simple server logic. Avoids reasoning about signals. Like not being cookie based. Like first party-third party pairing.
18:21:35 [tl]: +1
18:22:30 [Zakim]: - +1.202.695.aaqq
18:22:47 [jmayer]: WileyS: Aim was a simple proposal. Query/polling-based - doesn't occur with every event. Introduces notion of web-wide exception (*, third party).
18:22:58 [aleecia]: …and that might help in the EU context where we cannot always have a global opt out / opt in
18:23:03 [tl]: +q
18:23:20 [npdoty]: ack WileyS
18:23:31 [jmayer]: ... Going to take a lot more discussion, but good progress.
18:23:32 [npdoty]: ack tl
18:24:14 [jmayer]: tl: See web-wide exceptions as just a special case of a first party / third party pairing.
18:24:27 [npdoty]: q+
18:24:30 [schunter1]: q?
18:24:31 [jmayer]: ... Preserves the things I like about this approach.
18:25:03 [Zakim]: - +1.646.825.aapp
18:25:30 [jmayer]: npdoty: Yes, you can represent a web-wide exception the same way. You could do things much more complicated in the user agent, too. How much do we want to set in the spec? How much discretion do we want to leave to user agents?
18:25:33 [schunter1]: q?
18:25:38 [npdoty]: ack npdoty
18:25:48 [jmayer]: s/discretion/flexibility/
18:26:01 [jmayer]: +q
18:26:52 [WileyS]: +q
18:26:58 [npdoty]: ack jmayer
18:27:03 [aleecia]: -1
18:27:25 [schunter1]: q?
18:27:41 [aleecia]: (sorry - I should have jumped in and did not)
18:27:42 [WileyS]: -q
18:27:54 [jmayer]: jmayer: We should say something about exceptions in browsers that don't support this exception API.
18:28:18 [aleecia]: I'm in favor of moving this into the spec but leaving it open
18:28:28 [jmayer]: schunter1: Suggestion that we put this into the spec, but more discussion necessary.
18:28:37 [aleecia]: It's going to be easier to see things in one place, I think
18:28:39 [jmayer]: crosstalk
18:28:54 [jmayer]: npdoty: In spec language, should be able to import easily.
18:29:25 [npdoty]: so I'll send this language to Roy to import into the draft
18:29:27 [jmayer]: schunter1: Convert remaining Qs into new issues.
18:29:41 [npdoty]: and then we'll also need to create new group ISSUES for the open issues we have in this proposal
18:30:03 [jmayer]: schunter1: Next meeting 1/4.
18:30:18 [npdoty]: including the issue that jmayer has raised about alternate opt-outs (perhaps scoped to when browsers have not implemented this yet)
18:30:34 [schunter1]: ACTION: npdoty specify the proposed text for opt-back-in and send it to roy with open issue spelled out
18:30:35 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-43 - Specify the proposed text for opt-back-in and send it to roy with open issue spelled out [on Nick Doty - due 2011-12-28].
18:30:46 [Zakim]: -efelten
18:30:51 [Zakim]: - +1.202.744.aass
18:30:52 [Zakim]: - +1.408.349.aarr
18:30:53 [fwagner]: Merry christmas, happy new year to all of you !
18:30:59 [Zakim]: -cOlsen
18:31:00 [Zakim]: -carmenb
18:31:00 [Zakim]: -KevinT
18:31:00 [Zakim]: -fielding
18:31:01 [Zakim]: -pedermagee
18:31:01 [Zakim]: -Joanne
18:31:02 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:31:03 [Zakim]: -jmayer
18:31:05 [Zakim]: -johnsimpson
18:31:07 [Zakim]: -tedleung
18:31:09 [Zakim]: - +1.646.654.aamm
18:31:11 [Zakim]: -tl
18:31:13 [Zakim]: -npdoty
18:31:15 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:31:17 [Zakim]: -schunter
18:31:19 [Zakim]: -fwagner
18:31:21 [Zakim]: -dsriedel
18:31:23 [Zakim]: -aleecia
18:31:25 [Zakim]: - +1.650.862.aahh
18:31:27 [fwagner]: fwagner has left #dnt
18:31:36 [Zakim]: -??P46
18:31:37 [npdoty]: jmayer, if you have more comments on the API being heavyweight, we should talk about that
18:31:58 [KevinT]: KevinT has left #dnt
18:32:55 [aleecia]: RRSAgent, make minutes
18:32:55 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-minutes.html aleecia
18:33:05 [aleecia]: RRSAgent, end call
18:33:05 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'end call', aleecia. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:33:30 [npdoty]: Zakim, end call
18:33:30 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'end call', npdoty
18:34:15 [npdoty]: Zakim, list attendees
18:34:15 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been aleecia, +1.202.326.aaaa, efelten, +1.202.684.aabb, dsinger, npdoty, +1.415.520.aacc, jmayer, fwagner, +1.202.326.aadd, KevinT,
18:34:18 [Zakim]: ... +44.207.229.aaee, sidstamm, +1.916.641.aaff, +49.721.913.74.aagg, enewland, tl, +1.650.862.aahh, dsriedel, Joanne, +1.310.392.aaii, +1.202.629.aajj, +1.206.369.aakk,
18:34:21 [Zakim]: ... +1.202.263.aall, tedleung, schunter, carmenb, +1.646.654.aamm, johnsimpson, +1.404.394.aann, [Microsoft], +1.813.366.aaoo, +1.646.825.aapp, +1.202.695.aaqq, fielding,
18:34:23 [Zakim]: ... +1.408.349.aarr, +1.202.744.aass, pedermagee, +1.202.326.aatt, cOlsen, +1.206.658.aauu, +1.949.573.aavv, +1.813.366.aaww, alex
18:34:29 [npdoty]: Zakim, bye
18:34:29 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were aleecia, +1.202.326.aaaa, efelten, +1.202.684.aabb, dsinger, npdoty, +1.415.520.aacc, jmayer, fwagner, +1.202.326.aadd, KevinT,
18:34:29 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #dnt
18:34:32 [Zakim]: ... +44.207.229.aaee, sidstamm, +1.916.641.aaff, +49.721.913.74.aagg, enewland, tl, +1.650.862.aahh, dsriedel, Joanne, +1.310.392.aaii, +1.202.629.aajj, +1.206.369.aakk,
18:34:35 [Zakim]: ... +1.202.263.aall, tedleung, schunter, carmenb, +1.646.654.aamm, johnsimpson, +1.404.394.aann, [Microsoft], +1.813.366.aaoo, +1.646.825.aapp, +1.202.695.aaqq, fielding,
18:34:38 [Zakim]: ... +1.408.349.aarr, +1.202.744.aass, pedermagee, +1.202.326.aatt, cOlsen, +1.206.658.aauu, +1.949.573.aavv, +1.813.366.aaww, alex
18:34:42 [npdoty]: trackbot, end meeting
18:34:42 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
18:34:43 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:34:43 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
18:34:44 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-actions.rdf :
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: rfielding revise language in spec to address ISSUE-78 [1]
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-irc#T18-04-24
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: fielding revise language in spec to address ISSUE-78 [2]
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-irc#T18-04-36
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jmayer proposes non-normative language to obtain DNT info in Javascript; would replace DOM-API [3]
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-irc#T18-16-42
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: npdoty specify the proposed text for opt-back-in and send it to roy with open issue spelled out [4]
18:34:44 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/21-dnt-irc#T18-30-34