20:56:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
20:56:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/19-audio-irc
20:56:33 <olivier> trackbot, start meeting
20:56:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:56:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #audio
20:56:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 28346
20:56:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see RWC_Audio()4:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
20:56:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
20:56:39 <trackbot> Date: 19 December 2011
20:56:41 <olivier> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2011OctDec/0150.html
20:57:06 <olivier> Chair: Alistair
20:59:43 <chrislowis> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:59:43 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()4:00PM has not yet started, chrislowis
20:59:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Alistair, quinnirill, olivier, chrislowis, MikeSmith, foolip, F1LT3R_, Ronny, shepazu, trackbot, kinetik, paul_irish
21:00:28 <kinetik> scribe: kinetik
21:00:48 <kinetik> zakim, scribe: kinetik
21:00:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribe: kinetik', kinetik
21:01:27 <chrislowis> Scribe: kinetik
21:02:23 <quinnirill> what was the voip address again?
21:02:32 <olivier> zakim@voip.w3.org
21:02:40 <quinnirill> oyea, thanks
21:06:27 <quinnirill> Alistair: can you hear me? :D
21:06:32 <Alistair> No
21:06:43 <Alistair> :-/
21:06:44 <olivier> nope
21:06:54 <quinnirill> meh -.-
21:07:02 <Alistair> Shout a little louder.
21:07:06 <quinnirill> reinstalled voip a few minutes ago
21:07:28 <Alistair> Ah. Can you hear us OK?
21:07:52 <Alistair> :)
21:14:59 <olivier> zakim, who is on the call
21:14:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', olivier
21:15:22 <chrislowis> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:15:23 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()4:00PM has not yet started, chrislowis
21:15:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Alistair, quinnirill, olivier, chrislowis, MikeSmith, foolip, F1LT3R_, Ronny, shepazu, trackbot, kinetik, paul_irish
21:15:34 <shepazu> Zakim, who's noisy?
21:15:34 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I don't know what conference this is
21:15:51 <olivier> zakim, this is audio
21:15:51 <Zakim> ok, olivier; that matches RWC_Audio()4:00PM
21:16:40 <kinetik> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2011OctDec/0150.html
21:16:40 <olivier> Agenda+ We've published our FPWDs! Now what?...
21:16:41 <olivier> Agenda+ Use cases and Requirements
21:16:41 <olivier> Agenda+ f2f 
21:16:41 <olivier> Agenda+ Next call (need to decide when)
21:17:10 <olivier> hmm no
21:17:21 <Zakim> -??P2
21:17:41 <kinetik> Topic: We've published our FPWDs! Now what?
21:17:48 <Zakim> +??P1
21:18:51 <shepazu> Zakim, who's noisy?
21:19:01 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P16 (11%)
21:19:24 <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
21:19:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], ??P16, [IPcaller.a], ??P10, Doug_Schepers, ??P1
21:19:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Alistair, quinnirill, olivier, chrislowis, MikeSmith, foolip, F1LT3R_, Ronny, shepazu, trackbot, kinetik, paul_irish
21:20:31 <olivier> zakim, ??p1 is me
21:20:31 <Zakim> +olivier; got it
21:20:42 <kinetik> olivier: process-wise there are two steps.  can either make some modifications, republish, and then go to last call.
21:21:02 <chrislowis> olivier: yes. 
21:23:11 <kinetik> olivier: want to get to a point where we're happy with the state of the draft(s)
21:23:44 <kinetik> olivier: then we can go to last call (which is really a first call).  idea is to solicit feedback from outside the group.
21:24:15 <kinetik> olivier: likely will not get a lot of feedback until last call, usually have multiple last calls
21:24:51 <kinetik> olivier: try to solicit feedback early, interact with webrtc, html5, other groups to get early review.
21:25:41 <kinetik> shepazu: supports this approach 100%
21:26:24 <kinetik> olivier: continue work on requirements & use cases to produce a record of what decisions were taken and why
21:26:52 <kinetik> olivier: starting from two mature proposals, but still need rationale for what is being produced
21:27:44 <kinetik> shepazu: should not imagine this is the final version of the API, this is the first version, will have requests for more features down the track
21:28:10 <kinetik> shepazu: track the feature requests, architecture should provide ability to be extended for later versions
21:28:22 <Alistair> http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/Requirements
21:28:48 <kinetik> Alistair: started working on requirements (link above)
21:29:26 <kinetik> Alistair: need to discuss testing
21:29:33 <kinetik> shepazu: w3c putting together test infrastructure
21:30:19 <kinetik> Alistair: testing low latency playback of sound is very difficult to automate
21:30:28 <kinetik> shepazu: not all tests must be automated, but automate what we can
21:30:48 <kinetik> shepazu: think about how tests fit into implementers test frameworks to avoid duplication of effort
21:31:28 <kinetik> shepazu: allows implementers to incorporate these tests, and will encourage implementers to contribute tests back
21:32:04 <kinetik> shepazu: different categories of specification: must, should, may, must not, and should not
21:33:12 <kinetik> shepazu: normative vs informative; example code, implementation notes, background explanation are all informative
21:34:03 <kinetik> shepazu: normative (must, should, may, etc.) can be softened, only essential items are covered by royalty free
21:34:35 <kinetik> shepazu: if spec says you must do something a certain way, and is covered by patent, then royalty free license for patent is given
21:34:54 <kinetik> shepazu: if spec says should do something a certain way, that does not provide royalty free commitment
21:35:18 <kinetik> shepazu: maximum patent safeness = use must everywhere possible
21:36:24 <chrislowis> +q
21:37:01 <kinetik> Alistair: merging basic examples (http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/Basic-Examples) and use cases (http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/Use-Cases)
21:37:33 <kinetik> ACTION: shepazu to set up new requirements page for history purposes
21:37:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Set up new requirements page for history purposes [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-12-26].
21:38:31 <olivier> ack c
21:38:33 <kinetik> Alistair: divide up work and get everyone working on something over a week
21:39:09 <olivier> q+
21:39:24 <kinetik> chrislowis: what level do requirements need to be written at? e.g. for two different approaches to reverb effect (in each spec), so how do we write requirement to cover both specs?
21:40:12 <kinetik> chrislowis: both APIs can do same things, but go about it in different ways.
21:40:33 <shepazu> q+
21:40:39 <kinetik> Alistair: (example) would say "must be able to do reverb", "should be able to do impulse reverb"
21:40:41 <olivier> q- later
21:40:44 <olivier> ack s
21:41:32 <kinetik> shepazu: will be debating requirements, so write requirement as must (if it's required) or should (if it'd be nice).  'should' will probably not make v1.
21:42:00 <kinetik> shepazu: 'must have reverb', 'should have impulse reverb', 'may do it this way or that'.
21:43:03 <olivier> ack me
21:44:12 <kinetik> olivier: wiki has history, edits are signed, so use wiki to write requirements, and invite discussion on mailing list.
21:44:22 <kinetik> olivier: link requirements to use cases
21:45:18 <kinetik> olivier: requirements won't solve approach of which API is preferable, but will make it possible to see which requirements conflict and then can decide which requirement to kill or how to compromise
21:46:05 <kinetik> olivier: crogers wanted to backport requirements from his spec
21:46:37 <kinetik> chrislowis: interested in working on this, will talk to crogers about where he can help
21:47:37 <kinetik> Alistair: asking if there is one requirements document that will unify approach
21:47:42 <kinetik> shepazu: and in the darkness bind them
21:48:13 <kinetik> shepazu: this document is for what our API should do, not inclusive of webrtc/etc.
21:49:35 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 3
21:49:35 <Zakim> agendum 3. "f2f" taken up [from olivier]
21:49:42 <kinetik> TOPIC: Use cases and Requirements (discussion above)
21:49:48 <kinetik> TOPIC: f2f (if there is any news)
21:49:59 <Alistair> lol
21:50:45 <kinetik> olivier: question of whether to have the f2f at NAMM
21:51:23 <shepazu> q+
21:51:27 <kinetik> olivier: Google invited f2f to be hosted at Venice Beach, or if preference is to host in Anaheim (where NAMM is), Google may assist with financing conference room
21:51:44 <kinetik> s/Venice Beach/Venice Beach Google office/
21:52:07 <kinetik> olivier: recommend going with Venice Beach office as it may be easier to organize
21:52:15 <kinetik> olivier: not too far from Anaheim
21:52:18 <kinetik> shepazu: agrees
21:53:18 <kinetik> shepazu: easier to organize, plus wifi will be available, avoids being distracted from NAMM
21:54:06 <kinetik> olivier: need to decide on a date, near NAMM but not during
21:54:18 <kinetik> s/near/near date of/
21:54:34 <kinetik> olivier: maybe best just after; 23-24th January
21:55:10 <kinetik> shepazu: two days for f2f
21:55:25 <kinetik> Alistair: so much to do, could fill a week
21:55:41 <kinetik> olivier: one day too little, a week difficult for people to attend
21:56:08 <kinetik> olivier: will go back to Google with planned dates
21:56:37 <kinetik> TOPIC: Next call (when?)
21:56:45 <Alistair> http://www.doodle.com/grdv8dmy7gf2dqpc
21:56:59 <olivier> ACTION: Olivier to get back to Crogers and Google, make sure they can host us in Venice Beach Google office on 23-24 Jan 2012
21:57:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Get back to Crogers and Google, make sure they can host us in Venice Beach Google office on 23-24 Jan 2012 [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2011-12-26].
21:57:39 <olivier> +1
21:57:44 <kinetik> Alistair: roc and crogers available Jan 9th, so let's have next call then
21:58:30 <kinetik> Alistair: will continue working on requirements, anyone who wants to help please email, also available for phone calls
21:58:44 <olivier> q+
21:59:21 <kinetik> olivier: send an email to the list after making changes to get attention and solicit feedback
22:00:22 <kinetik> shepazu: w3c discussing idea of having a test manager/test editor, who is responsible for testing
22:00:34 <kinetik> shepazu: may be the spec editor, but idea is to divide work
22:01:06 <kinetik> Alistair: sounds good, let's discuss next call and find a volunteer
22:01:40 <kinetik> shepazu: tradionally driven by implementers wanting particular features in spec, so providing tests for that feature
22:01:58 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
22:02:00 <Zakim> -olivier
22:02:02 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
22:02:03 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
22:02:05 <Zakim> -??P16
22:02:05 <Zakim> -??P10
22:02:06 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:02:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/19-audio-minutes.html olivier
22:02:06 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()4:00PM has ended
22:02:07 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], Doug_Schepers, olivier
22:02:16 <olivier> zakim, bye
22:02:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #audio
22:02:22 <olivier> rrsagent, bye
22:02:22 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/19-audio-actions.rdf :
22:02:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu to set up new requirements page for history purposes [1]
22:02:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/19-audio-irc#T21-37-33
22:02:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Olivier to get back to Crogers and Google, make sure they can host us in Venice Beach Google office on 23-24 Jan 2012 [2]
22:02:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/19-audio-irc#T21-56-59