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16:03:25 <Zakim> +1.303.503.aaaa should no longer be muted
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16:03:50 <Zakim> +Russell
16:04:13 <Zakim> +Bob_Lund; got it
16:04:23 <Zakim> +??P17
16:04:44 <kaz> zakim, ??P17 is Clarke
16:05:29 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
16:05:45 <Zakim> +Franck
16:05:50 <Zakim> +Duncan
16:05:57 <kaz> [duncan and franck]
16:06:16 <kaz> [dave_mays]
16:06:27 <Zakim> +Dave_Mays
16:06:37 <mark> mark has joined #webtv
16:07:00 <Zakim> + +1.408.540.aabb
16:07:04 <Juhani> Juhani has joined #webtv
16:07:21 <Zakim> +??P40
16:07:22 <kaz> zakim, aabb is Mark_Watson
16:07:29 <kaz> zakim, ??P40 is Juhani
16:07:34 <Zakim> +Mark_Watson; got it
16:07:48 <Zakim> +Juhani; got it
16:08:23 <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
16:08:27 <franck> franck has joined #webtv
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16:08:33 <glenn> glenn takes scribe
16:08:47 <kaz> [jason
16:08:51 <Clarke> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Agenda_Telco_15th_December_2011
16:08:51 <glenn> clarke: prepare anything to submit for html5
16:08:54 <kaz> s/jason/jason]/
16:09:08 <glenn> clarke: (1) network errors proposal
16:09:23 <glenn> clarke: (2) method #1 for ADB params, feedback
16:09:27 <kaz> i/clarke:/topic: Prepare ADB proposal for HTML group/
16:09:46 <narm_gadiraju> narm_gadiraju has joined #webtv
16:09:51 <glenn> topic: network errors proposal
16:09:54 <Clarke> Network errors: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/HTML_Error_codes
16:10:15 <glenn> clarke: does anyone have comments? questions?
16:10:25 <kaz> Present: glenn, Bob_Lund, Kazuyuki, David, Jan_Lindquist, Russell, Clarke, Franck, Duncan, Dave_Mays, Mark_Watson, Juhani, Jason
16:10:34 <glenn> clarke: none heard
16:10:47 <glenn> clarke: recommends approval for submission
16:11:19 <kaz> Present+ Mark_Vickers
16:11:29 <glenn> jason: are mark's parameters about levels, etc., on that page?
16:11:39 <glenn> clarke: that will be in ADB discussion
16:12:19 <glenn> RESOLUTION: will forward network errors proposal to HTML WG
16:12:36 <glenn> topic: adaptive bitrate (ADB)
16:12:55 <Clarke> minimal control: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/ADR_Minimal_Control_Model_Proposal
16:13:19 <glenn> clarke: comments from mark w to start
16:13:27 <glenn> clarke: didn't see comments on UCs
16:13:33 <glenn> clarke: talked about 3 models
16:13:45 <kaz> s/Prepare ADB proposal for HTML group/Proposals for HTML group/
16:13:45 <glenn> clarke: minimal control, limited control, full control
16:14:13 <glenn> clarke: minimal control is basically UA based
16:14:28 <mav> mav has joined #webtv
16:14:37 <glenn> clarke: full control is under JS control, including video segments to JS
16:15:04 <glenn> clarke: still have open issues, needs further discussion and consensus
16:15:32 <glenn> clarke: if we get minimal control into html5, it gets our foot in door
16:15:51 <kaz> q+
16:16:06 <glenn> clarke: basic approach to start with (minimal|limited) control in html5, then progress to more full control features
16:16:15 <glenn> clarke: any concerns about UCs?
16:16:33 <glenn> kaz: wondering about media fragments
16:17:01 <glenn> kaz: do we want to use/support media fragment access in ADB ?
16:17:14 <glenn> clarke: is this search?
16:17:40 <glenn> kaz: yes: (1) using time, (2) using identifier
16:17:53 <glenn> clarke: do you want to add a use case?
16:18:09 <glenn> kaz: wondering about this, queries if there is interest
16:18:28 <franck> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/
16:18:39 <glenn> bob: MF provides ability to access portions of tracks using # notation, similar to ? (query) notation
16:18:48 <mark> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/
16:19:23 <glenn> bob: what is relation between HTML track model and ADB?
16:19:41 <glenn> bob: may have requirement for MFs, but more work needed
16:19:44 <Zakim> -Mark_Watson
16:20:03 <glenn> kaz: MF is completed; we can look at this later
16:20:16 <glenn> clarke: we may want to add as UC
16:20:24 <kaz> s/completed/a separate spec/
16:20:30 <glenn> bob is noisy
16:20:36 <Zakim> +Mark_Watson
16:20:51 <glenn> clarke: let's look at more as we pursue method 3
16:21:02 <kaz> zakim, who is noisy?
16:21:04 <glenn> clarke: any other comments on UCs?
16:21:15 <Zakim> kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Russell (95%)
16:21:19 <glenn> ?: do want to prioritize UCs?
16:21:40 <glenn> ?: need to group
16:21:49 <glenn> ?: reporting, statistics, ...
16:22:05 <glenn> ?: what is more important, control or reporting?
16:22:23 <Zakim> +??P36
16:22:25 <Zakim> -Bob_Lund
16:22:27 <glenn> ?: requires discussion about prioritization
16:22:58 <glenn> s/?/jason/
16:23:08 <kaz> s/?/jason/g
16:23:12 <glenn> mark: should prioritize reporting
16:23:20 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #webtv
16:23:48 <glenn> mark: per-user manifest vs larger scope on manifest
16:24:01 <glenn> i didn't follow that last very well
16:24:25 <glenn> clarke: does anyone disagree with assigning priority to reporting?
16:24:42 <kaz> q-
16:25:00 <glenn> david: to group UCs
16:25:14 <glenn> jan: separate point: measurements vs errors
16:25:15 <kaz> action: mays to group UCs
16:25:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-85 - Group UCs [on David Mays - due 2011-12-22].
16:25:45 <glenn> mark: what does performing "best" mean?
16:26:14 <glenn> clarke: reporting non-subjective criteria requires judgment
16:26:32 <glenn> mark: what does it mean for a particular bitrate to be performing "well"?
16:26:45 <glenn> mark: can look at how system is performing
16:26:55 <glenn> jason: may be condensed to single UC
16:27:14 <glenn> ... may tailor bitrates
16:27:24 <JanL> ?q
16:27:25 <BobLund> Here is the URL for the media fragments spec that we were discussing a few moments ago http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/
16:27:27 <JanL> +q
16:27:49 <glenn> ... as long as metrics are exposed, 
16:28:01 <glenn> ... doesn't expect UA to grade
16:28:07 <glenn> jan: suggests moving to APP layer
16:28:30 <glenn> dave: thought that was goal???
16:28:35 <kaz> q?
16:28:40 <kaz> ack J
16:28:49 <BobLund> Kaz - yes I rejoined on SIP
16:28:52 <glenn> clarke: does second to last bullet item provide that?
16:29:13 <glenn> ? what is reporting to?
16:29:20 <kaz> zakim, who is speaking?
16:29:23 <glenn> ? requiring exposure of metrics
16:29:31 <Zakim> kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Franck (5%), Dave_Mays (43%), Jan_Lindquist (11%)
16:29:34 <mav> that's dave mays speaking
16:29:39 <glenn> ? video bit rate, dropped frames, etc
16:29:59 <kaz> s/?:/davidmays:/g
16:30:51 <glenn> not capturing...
16:31:11 <glenn> mark: UC aren't REQs
16:31:23 <glenn> mark: 2 different uses regarding stats
16:31:36 <glenn> topic: parameters
16:31:36 <kaz> s/mark: UC/Clarke: UC/
16:31:45 <kaz> s/mark: 2/Clarke: 2/
16:31:50 <glenn> clarke: {max,min}level, startlevel
16:32:14 <glenn> mark: as soon as we talk about levels, the script needs to understand manifest, etc
16:32:19 <glenn> mark: more in model 2/3
16:32:39 <glenn> mark: model 1: independent of adaptive streaming
16:32:53 <JanL> +q
16:33:00 <glenn> mark: more looking at hints or string on max/min BW
16:33:43 <glenn> mark: if minlevel satisfied, should avoid rebuffering
16:33:59 <glenn> mark: if not, then may move to lower quality
16:34:05 <kaz> q?
16:34:23 <glenn> bob: agree with mark in general, but using text track interface, may make manifest available to scripts
16:34:39 <glenn> ... easy to specify rules to provide manifest
16:34:50 <glenn> ... manifest contains track/program description
16:35:07 <glenn> ... UA detects manifest change, then cues via text track
16:35:14 <glenn> mark: would format be independent?
16:35:28 <glenn> bob: not sure necessary; manifest files self idenifying
16:35:47 <glenn> mark: would script require support for all manifest formats?
16:36:01 <glenn> bob: could choose, but no harm done of not recognized
16:36:09 <glenn> bob: may have both models
16:36:27 <glenn> mark: easy define methods for passing info (manifest), but needs to be clear on functions
16:36:53 <glenn> ... whatever comp is responsible for bitrate adjustment, needs to operate at level of understanding bytes/frames
16:37:14 <glenn> ... knowledge at level of streams may not work
16:37:39 <glenn> clarke: fundamental question
16:37:52 <glenn> clarke: abstract level vs specific/concrete
16:38:14 <glenn> clarke: may wish to optimize on resolution instead of bitrate
16:38:24 <JanL> +q
16:38:37 <glenn> clarke: might want to do something with BW that is generic to different ADB algorithms
16:39:17 <mav> q+
16:39:22 <glenn> mark: if max BW spec, doesn't imply APP won't choose higher BW
16:39:24 <kaz> q?
16:39:43 <kaz> ack J
16:40:03 <glenn> jan: example interesting; but one concern
16:40:14 <glenn> ... how can APP process?
16:40:20 <glenn> ... must download video first
16:40:34 <glenn> ... if VBR, may go down (in rate?)
16:41:14 <glenn> ... maxLevel is to cap, in order to obtain unified experience
16:41:28 <glenn> ... see ML re BW discussion
16:41:46 <glenn> ... wants to reserve option to associate with manifest
16:41:54 <glenn> mark: need to be clear on arch
16:42:06 <glenn> ... should look more at model 3
16:42:32 <glenn> ... on demand streams benefit from manifest data more
16:43:07 <glenn> ... within UCs, did not have objective that script makes quality uniform
16:43:24 <glenn> ... most important UC, is limiting overall BW
16:43:36 <glenn> ... esp those users with data caps
16:44:02 <mav> q-
16:44:32 <mav> q+
16:44:40 <glenn> jan: wants to cover both cases (live and on-demand) where in former case, manifest is less relevant, but in latter, is more important
16:44:53 <glenn> mark: most important to make semantics clear for script
16:45:17 <glenn> ... UA impl responsible for staying within BW limits
16:45:28 <glenn> ... hard for script to enforce
16:45:35 <mav> q-
16:45:38 <glenn> jan: may have slightly different goals (with mark)
16:46:06 <glenn> ... may leave a little bit open, further discussion over time, esp with WGs
16:46:26 <kaz> q+
16:46:40 <kaz> q?
16:46:41 <glenn> mark: anything proposed to HTML WG won't be final
16:46:49 <glenn> ... as they will want to discuss
16:47:13 <mav> q+
16:47:18 <glenn> ... must explain what we propose, the more we propose, the more we have to do
16:47:34 <glenn> ... if we tie into manifests, then will need to say much more
16:47:56 <davidmays> q+
16:48:04 <mav> q-
16:48:08 <glenn> jan: should we change name or propose more text?
16:48:28 <glenn> mark: would remove (?) ...
16:48:41 <kaz> q?
16:48:52 <glenn> clarke: q is backed up
16:49:10 <glenn> kaz: wondering about timing
16:49:38 <glenn> ... html5 driving timing
16:49:48 <glenn> ... may aim for next version
16:49:57 <mav> q+
16:50:29 <kaz> ack k
16:50:48 <kaz> ack d
16:50:50 <glenn> david: maybe max BW is separate intent from other params
16:51:07 <glenn> ... min/max to be bound to particular representation within tracks
16:51:26 <glenn> ... should we have additional param for max BW... what units of measurement?
16:51:44 <glenn> ... tricky for min/max to be bound to particular manifest format
16:51:56 <Clarke> q?
16:52:00 <glenn> ... may be optimizations for start up, qos, ...
16:52:16 <glenn> mark: feels like model 2 is trying to creep in
16:52:25 <glenn> ... model 2 is hard
16:52:40 <glenn> ... requires more work to flush out script control
16:52:51 <glenn> ... model 1 - only UA has knowledge of different levels
16:53:02 <glenn> ... UCs listed here is one step removed from script control
16:53:22 <glenn> david: not control, but hints
16:53:37 <glenn> ?: hints, suggestions, otherwise requires more knowledge
16:53:50 <glenn> ?: level requires more definition
16:54:06 <kaz> s/?:/Clarke:/g
16:54:22 <glenn> mav: (1) do we think that choice of BW max could apply outside of ADB?, e.g., for resolution at start?
16:54:45 <glenn> ... lost audio ...
16:55:07 <glenn> ... would like to see example from other formats, e.g., flash, silverlight
16:55:50 <glenn> ... wants to see examples from existing practice
16:56:07 <glenn> clarke: anyone willing to comment on flash, silverlight?
16:56:14 <kaz> q+ to ask about Espial browser, etc.
16:56:16 <glenn> jason: may provide input on flash
16:56:24 <glenn> david: may provide input on silverlight
16:56:51 <glenn> action: to provide input on practices with respect to flash
16:56:51 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
16:57:26 <glenn> action: jason to provide input on practices with flash
16:57:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Provide input on practices with flash [on Jason Lewis - due 2011-12-22].
16:57:37 <glenn> action: davidmays to provide input on practices with silverlight
16:57:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Provide input on practices with silverlight [on David Mays - due 2011-12-22].
16:57:52 <glenn> mav: wants to see more verbiage on this practice
16:58:06 <glenn> clarke: in last few mins, can we talk about starting level?
16:58:18 <glenn> ... can we drop starting level?
16:58:26 <kaz> q-
16:58:27 <glenn> ... just use {min,max} as proxy?
16:58:34 <kaz> ack mav
16:58:34 <mav> q-
16:58:38 <glenn> mark: are we in model 2 or model 1?
16:58:48 <glenn> ... doesn't see way to talk about levels in model 1
16:59:24 <Juhani> See for different systems:http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/next#Adaptive_Streaming
16:59:47 <kaz> s/:http:/: http:/
17:00:02 <glenn> mark: confusing models a little bit
17:00:17 <glenn> ...  if we're doing model 2, then comparison with flash/silverlight more relevant
17:00:37 <glenn> ... in model 1, only can give hints on what user prefers
17:00:48 <glenn> ... not convinced about providing such choices to users
17:01:08 <glenn> ... but content providers might want this
17:01:12 <Juhani> Sorry, wrong reference ... right one is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_Metrics if applies to the discussion earlier of how different systems use parameters
17:01:52 <glenn> notes we are now out of time
17:02:00 <glenn> clarke: continue discussion on reflector
17:02:12 <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
17:02:18 <Zakim> -Duncan
17:02:19 <Zakim> -Dave_Mays
17:02:19 <Zakim> -Russell
17:02:20 <Zakim> -Clarke
17:02:20 <Zakim> -Franck
17:02:21 <Zakim> -David
17:02:23 <Zakim> -Jan_Lindquist
17:02:23 <glenn> rrsagent, make minutes public
17:02:23 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', glenn.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:02:25 <Zakim> -??P36
17:02:27 <Zakim> -Juhani
17:02:27 <Clarke> Thanks, Glenn
17:02:29 <Zakim> -Mark_Watson
17:02:37 <kaz> thanks a lot, Glenn!
17:02:48 <duncanr> duncanr has left #webtv
17:02:48 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
17:02:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-webtv-minutes.html kaz
17:02:59 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
17:03:45 <Zakim> -glenn
17:03:46 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM has ended
17:03:49 <Zakim> Attendees were glenn, +1.303.503.aaaa, Kazuyuki, Jan_Lindquist, David, Russell, Bob_Lund, Clarke, Franck, Duncan, Dave_Mays, +1.408.540.aabb, Mark_Watson, Juhani, Mark_Vickers
17:04:20 <glenn> zakim, aaaa was Bob_Lund
17:04:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa was Bob_Lund', glenn
17:05:07 <glenn> glenn has left #webtv
19:06:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webtv