IRC log of webtv on 2011-12-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-webtv-irc
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+1.303.503.aaaa should no longer be muted
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+Russell
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+Bob_Lund; got it
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+??P17
16:04:44 [kaz]
zakim, ??P17 is Clarke
16:05:29 [Zakim]
+Clarke; got it
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+Franck
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+Duncan
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[duncan and franck]
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[dave_mays]
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+Dave_Mays
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+ +1.408.540.aabb
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+??P40
16:07:22 [kaz]
zakim, aabb is Mark_Watson
16:07:29 [kaz]
zakim, ??P40 is Juhani
16:07:34 [Zakim]
+Mark_Watson; got it
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+Juhani; got it
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+Mark_Vickers
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16:08:33 [glenn]
glenn takes scribe
16:08:47 [kaz]
[jason
16:08:51 [Clarke]
http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Agenda_Telco_15th_December_2011
16:08:51 [glenn]
clarke: prepare anything to submit for html5
16:08:54 [kaz]
s/jason/jason]/
16:09:08 [glenn]
clarke: (1) network errors proposal
16:09:23 [glenn]
clarke: (2) method #1 for ADB params, feedback
16:09:27 [kaz]
i/clarke:/topic: Prepare ADB proposal for HTML group/
16:09:46 [narm_gadiraju]
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16:09:51 [glenn]
topic: network errors proposal
16:09:54 [Clarke]
Network errors: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/HTML_Error_codes
16:10:15 [glenn]
clarke: does anyone have comments? questions?
16:10:25 [kaz]
Present: glenn, Bob_Lund, Kazuyuki, David, Jan_Lindquist, Russell, Clarke, Franck, Duncan, Dave_Mays, Mark_Watson, Juhani, Jason
16:10:34 [glenn]
clarke: none heard
16:10:47 [glenn]
clarke: recommends approval for submission
16:11:19 [kaz]
Present+ Mark_Vickers
16:11:29 [glenn]
jason: are mark's parameters about levels, etc., on that page?
16:11:39 [glenn]
clarke: that will be in ADB discussion
16:12:19 [glenn]
RESOLUTION: will forward network errors proposal to HTML WG
16:12:36 [glenn]
topic: adaptive bitrate (ADB)
16:12:55 [Clarke]
minimal control: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/ADR_Minimal_Control_Model_Proposal
16:13:19 [glenn]
clarke: comments from mark w to start
16:13:27 [glenn]
clarke: didn't see comments on UCs
16:13:33 [glenn]
clarke: talked about 3 models
16:13:45 [kaz]
s/Prepare ADB proposal for HTML group/Proposals for HTML group/
16:13:45 [glenn]
clarke: minimal control, limited control, full control
16:14:13 [glenn]
clarke: minimal control is basically UA based
16:14:28 [mav]
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16:14:37 [glenn]
clarke: full control is under JS control, including video segments to JS
16:15:04 [glenn]
clarke: still have open issues, needs further discussion and consensus
16:15:32 [glenn]
clarke: if we get minimal control into html5, it gets our foot in door
16:15:51 [kaz]
q+
16:16:06 [glenn]
clarke: basic approach to start with (minimal|limited) control in html5, then progress to more full control features
16:16:15 [glenn]
clarke: any concerns about UCs?
16:16:33 [glenn]
kaz: wondering about media fragments
16:17:01 [glenn]
kaz: do we want to use/support media fragment access in ADB ?
16:17:14 [glenn]
clarke: is this search?
16:17:40 [glenn]
kaz: yes: (1) using time, (2) using identifier
16:17:53 [glenn]
clarke: do you want to add a use case?
16:18:09 [glenn]
kaz: wondering about this, queries if there is interest
16:18:28 [franck]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/
16:18:39 [glenn]
bob: MF provides ability to access portions of tracks using # notation, similar to ? (query) notation
16:18:48 [mark]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/
16:19:23 [glenn]
bob: what is relation between HTML track model and ADB?
16:19:41 [glenn]
bob: may have requirement for MFs, but more work needed
16:19:44 [Zakim]
-Mark_Watson
16:20:03 [glenn]
kaz: MF is completed; we can look at this later
16:20:16 [glenn]
clarke: we may want to add as UC
16:20:24 [kaz]
s/completed/a separate spec/
16:20:30 [glenn]
bob is noisy
16:20:36 [Zakim]
+Mark_Watson
16:20:51 [glenn]
clarke: let's look at more as we pursue method 3
16:21:02 [kaz]
zakim, who is noisy?
16:21:04 [glenn]
clarke: any other comments on UCs?
16:21:15 [Zakim]
kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Russell (95%)
16:21:19 [glenn]
?: do want to prioritize UCs?
16:21:40 [glenn]
?: need to group
16:21:49 [glenn]
?: reporting, statistics, ...
16:22:05 [glenn]
?: what is more important, control or reporting?
16:22:23 [Zakim]
+??P36
16:22:25 [Zakim]
-Bob_Lund
16:22:27 [glenn]
?: requires discussion about prioritization
16:22:58 [glenn]
s/?/jason/
16:23:08 [kaz]
s/?/jason/g
16:23:12 [glenn]
mark: should prioritize reporting
16:23:20 [BobLund]
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16:23:48 [glenn]
mark: per-user manifest vs larger scope on manifest
16:24:01 [glenn]
i didn't follow that last very well
16:24:25 [glenn]
clarke: does anyone disagree with assigning priority to reporting?
16:24:42 [kaz]
q-
16:25:00 [glenn]
david: to group UCs
16:25:14 [glenn]
jan: separate point: measurements vs errors
16:25:15 [kaz]
action: mays to group UCs
16:25:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-85 - Group UCs [on David Mays - due 2011-12-22].
16:25:45 [glenn]
mark: what does performing "best" mean?
16:26:14 [glenn]
clarke: reporting non-subjective criteria requires judgment
16:26:32 [glenn]
mark: what does it mean for a particular bitrate to be performing "well"?
16:26:45 [glenn]
mark: can look at how system is performing
16:26:55 [glenn]
jason: may be condensed to single UC
16:27:14 [glenn]
... may tailor bitrates
16:27:24 [JanL]
?q
16:27:25 [BobLund]
Here is the URL for the media fragments spec that we were discussing a few moments ago http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/
16:27:27 [JanL]
+q
16:27:49 [glenn]
... as long as metrics are exposed,
16:28:01 [glenn]
... doesn't expect UA to grade
16:28:07 [glenn]
jan: suggests moving to APP layer
16:28:30 [glenn]
dave: thought that was goal???
16:28:35 [kaz]
q?
16:28:40 [kaz]
ack J
16:28:49 [BobLund]
Kaz - yes I rejoined on SIP
16:28:52 [glenn]
clarke: does second to last bullet item provide that?
16:29:13 [glenn]
? what is reporting to?
16:29:20 [kaz]
zakim, who is speaking?
16:29:23 [glenn]
? requiring exposure of metrics
16:29:31 [Zakim]
kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Franck (5%), Dave_Mays (43%), Jan_Lindquist (11%)
16:29:34 [mav]
that's dave mays speaking
16:29:39 [glenn]
? video bit rate, dropped frames, etc
16:29:59 [kaz]
s/?:/davidmays:/g
16:30:51 [glenn]
not capturing...
16:31:11 [glenn]
mark: UC aren't REQs
16:31:23 [glenn]
mark: 2 different uses regarding stats
16:31:36 [glenn]
topic: parameters
16:31:36 [kaz]
s/mark: UC/Clarke: UC/
16:31:45 [kaz]
s/mark: 2/Clarke: 2/
16:31:50 [glenn]
clarke: {max,min}level, startlevel
16:32:14 [glenn]
mark: as soon as we talk about levels, the script needs to understand manifest, etc
16:32:19 [glenn]
mark: more in model 2/3
16:32:39 [glenn]
mark: model 1: independent of adaptive streaming
16:32:53 [JanL]
+q
16:33:00 [glenn]
mark: more looking at hints or string on max/min BW
16:33:43 [glenn]
mark: if minlevel satisfied, should avoid rebuffering
16:33:59 [glenn]
mark: if not, then may move to lower quality
16:34:05 [kaz]
q?
16:34:23 [glenn]
bob: agree with mark in general, but using text track interface, may make manifest available to scripts
16:34:39 [glenn]
... easy to specify rules to provide manifest
16:34:50 [glenn]
... manifest contains track/program description
16:35:07 [glenn]
... UA detects manifest change, then cues via text track
16:35:14 [glenn]
mark: would format be independent?
16:35:28 [glenn]
bob: not sure necessary; manifest files self idenifying
16:35:47 [glenn]
mark: would script require support for all manifest formats?
16:36:01 [glenn]
bob: could choose, but no harm done of not recognized
16:36:09 [glenn]
bob: may have both models
16:36:27 [glenn]
mark: easy define methods for passing info (manifest), but needs to be clear on functions
16:36:53 [glenn]
... whatever comp is responsible for bitrate adjustment, needs to operate at level of understanding bytes/frames
16:37:14 [glenn]
... knowledge at level of streams may not work
16:37:39 [glenn]
clarke: fundamental question
16:37:52 [glenn]
clarke: abstract level vs specific/concrete
16:38:14 [glenn]
clarke: may wish to optimize on resolution instead of bitrate
16:38:24 [JanL]
+q
16:38:37 [glenn]
clarke: might want to do something with BW that is generic to different ADB algorithms
16:39:17 [mav]
q+
16:39:22 [glenn]
mark: if max BW spec, doesn't imply APP won't choose higher BW
16:39:24 [kaz]
q?
16:39:43 [kaz]
ack J
16:40:03 [glenn]
jan: example interesting; but one concern
16:40:14 [glenn]
... how can APP process?
16:40:20 [glenn]
... must download video first
16:40:34 [glenn]
... if VBR, may go down (in rate?)
16:41:14 [glenn]
... maxLevel is to cap, in order to obtain unified experience
16:41:28 [glenn]
... see ML re BW discussion
16:41:46 [glenn]
... wants to reserve option to associate with manifest
16:41:54 [glenn]
mark: need to be clear on arch
16:42:06 [glenn]
... should look more at model 3
16:42:32 [glenn]
... on demand streams benefit from manifest data more
16:43:07 [glenn]
... within UCs, did not have objective that script makes quality uniform
16:43:24 [glenn]
... most important UC, is limiting overall BW
16:43:36 [glenn]
... esp those users with data caps
16:44:02 [mav]
q-
16:44:32 [mav]
q+
16:44:40 [glenn]
jan: wants to cover both cases (live and on-demand) where in former case, manifest is less relevant, but in latter, is more important
16:44:53 [glenn]
mark: most important to make semantics clear for script
16:45:17 [glenn]
... UA impl responsible for staying within BW limits
16:45:28 [glenn]
... hard for script to enforce
16:45:35 [mav]
q-
16:45:38 [glenn]
jan: may have slightly different goals (with mark)
16:46:06 [glenn]
... may leave a little bit open, further discussion over time, esp with WGs
16:46:26 [kaz]
q+
16:46:40 [kaz]
q?
16:46:41 [glenn]
mark: anything proposed to HTML WG won't be final
16:46:49 [glenn]
... as they will want to discuss
16:47:13 [mav]
q+
16:47:18 [glenn]
... must explain what we propose, the more we propose, the more we have to do
16:47:34 [glenn]
... if we tie into manifests, then will need to say much more
16:47:56 [davidmays]
q+
16:48:04 [mav]
q-
16:48:08 [glenn]
jan: should we change name or propose more text?
16:48:28 [glenn]
mark: would remove (?) ...
16:48:41 [kaz]
q?
16:48:52 [glenn]
clarke: q is backed up
16:49:10 [glenn]
kaz: wondering about timing
16:49:38 [glenn]
... html5 driving timing
16:49:48 [glenn]
... may aim for next version
16:49:57 [mav]
q+
16:50:29 [kaz]
ack k
16:50:48 [kaz]
ack d
16:50:50 [glenn]
david: maybe max BW is separate intent from other params
16:51:07 [glenn]
... min/max to be bound to particular representation within tracks
16:51:26 [glenn]
... should we have additional param for max BW... what units of measurement?
16:51:44 [glenn]
... tricky for min/max to be bound to particular manifest format
16:51:56 [Clarke]
q?
16:52:00 [glenn]
... may be optimizations for start up, qos, ...
16:52:16 [glenn]
mark: feels like model 2 is trying to creep in
16:52:25 [glenn]
... model 2 is hard
16:52:40 [glenn]
... requires more work to flush out script control
16:52:51 [glenn]
... model 1 - only UA has knowledge of different levels
16:53:02 [glenn]
... UCs listed here is one step removed from script control
16:53:22 [glenn]
david: not control, but hints
16:53:37 [glenn]
?: hints, suggestions, otherwise requires more knowledge
16:53:50 [glenn]
?: level requires more definition
16:54:06 [kaz]
s/?:/Clarke:/g
16:54:22 [glenn]
mav: (1) do we think that choice of BW max could apply outside of ADB?, e.g., for resolution at start?
16:54:45 [glenn]
... lost audio ...
16:55:07 [glenn]
... would like to see example from other formats, e.g., flash, silverlight
16:55:50 [glenn]
... wants to see examples from existing practice
16:56:07 [glenn]
clarke: anyone willing to comment on flash, silverlight?
16:56:14 [kaz]
q+ to ask about Espial browser, etc.
16:56:16 [glenn]
jason: may provide input on flash
16:56:24 [glenn]
david: may provide input on silverlight
16:56:51 [glenn]
action: to provide input on practices with respect to flash
16:56:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - to
16:57:26 [glenn]
action: jason to provide input on practices with flash
16:57:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-86 - Provide input on practices with flash [on Jason Lewis - due 2011-12-22].
16:57:37 [glenn]
action: davidmays to provide input on practices with silverlight
16:57:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-87 - Provide input on practices with silverlight [on David Mays - due 2011-12-22].
16:57:52 [glenn]
mav: wants to see more verbiage on this practice
16:58:06 [glenn]
clarke: in last few mins, can we talk about starting level?
16:58:18 [glenn]
... can we drop starting level?
16:58:26 [kaz]
q-
16:58:27 [glenn]
... just use {min,max} as proxy?
16:58:34 [kaz]
ack mav
16:58:34 [mav]
q-
16:58:38 [glenn]
mark: are we in model 2 or model 1?
16:58:48 [glenn]
... doesn't see way to talk about levels in model 1
16:59:24 [Juhani]
See for different systems:http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/next#Adaptive_Streaming
16:59:47 [kaz]
s/:http:/: http:/
17:00:02 [glenn]
mark: confusing models a little bit
17:00:17 [glenn]
... if we're doing model 2, then comparison with flash/silverlight more relevant
17:00:37 [glenn]
... in model 1, only can give hints on what user prefers
17:00:48 [glenn]
... not convinced about providing such choices to users
17:01:08 [glenn]
... but content providers might want this
17:01:12 [Juhani]
Sorry, wrong reference ... right one is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_Metrics if applies to the discussion earlier of how different systems use parameters
17:01:52 [glenn]
notes we are now out of time
17:02:00 [glenn]
clarke: continue discussion on reflector
17:02:12 [Zakim]
-Mark_Vickers
17:02:18 [Zakim]
-Duncan
17:02:19 [Zakim]
-Dave_Mays
17:02:19 [Zakim]
-Russell
17:02:20 [Zakim]
-Clarke
17:02:20 [Zakim]
-Franck
17:02:21 [Zakim]
-David
17:02:23 [Zakim]
-Jan_Lindquist
17:02:23 [glenn]
rrsagent, make minutes public
17:02:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', glenn. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:02:25 [Zakim]
-??P36
17:02:27 [Zakim]
-Juhani
17:02:27 [Clarke]
Thanks, Glenn
17:02:29 [Zakim]
-Mark_Watson
17:02:37 [kaz]
thanks a lot, Glenn!
17:02:48 [duncanr]
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17:02:48 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
17:02:53 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/15-webtv-minutes.html kaz
17:02:59 [Zakim]
-Kazuyuki
17:03:45 [Zakim]
-glenn
17:03:46 [Zakim]
UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM has ended
17:03:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were glenn, +1.303.503.aaaa, Kazuyuki, Jan_Lindquist, David, Russell, Bob_Lund, Clarke, Franck, Duncan, Dave_Mays, +1.408.540.aabb, Mark_Watson, Juhani, Mark_Vickers
17:04:20 [glenn]
zakim, aaaa was Bob_Lund
17:04:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaaa was Bob_Lund', glenn
17:05:07 [glenn]
glenn has left #webtv
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