16:29:10 RRSAgent has joined #css 16:29:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-css-irc 16:29:15 Zakim, this will be Style 16:29:15 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes 16:29:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:43:57 sylvaing has joined #css 16:45:04 jdaggett has joined #css 16:47:39 ericm has joined #css 16:48:50 You're lucky there is no table layout spec, then 16:52:35 lol 16:55:45 stearns_ has joined #css 16:56:19 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 16:56:26 +ericm 16:56:45 antonp has joined #css 16:56:46 +divya 16:56:49 -ericm 16:56:50 +ericm 16:57:38 +??P54 16:57:40 antonp has joined #css 16:57:46 Zakim, ??P54 is me 16:57:46 +glazou; got it 16:57:59 danielweck has joined #css 16:58:21 +antonp 16:58:58 +??P59 16:59:11 zakim, ??p59 is me 16:59:14 +stearns 16:59:33 +jdaggett; got it 16:59:36 + +1.603.957.aaaa 16:59:41 Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing 17:00:12 oyvind has joined #css 17:00:22 +sylvaing; got it 17:00:34 bradk has joined #css 17:01:00 +fantasai 17:01:03 vhardy has joined #css 17:01:04 TabAtkins_ has joined #css 17:01:10 +??P67 17:01:17 JohnJan has joined #css 17:01:18 +??P65 17:01:26 zakim, microsoft has johnjan 17:01:27 +kimberly 17:01:42 Zakim, ??P67 is me 17:01:49 +[Microsoft] 17:01:57 +johnjan; got it 17:02:07 +[Apple] 17:02:10 Zakim, Apple has hober 17:02:16 dbaron has joined #css 17:02:17 +danielweck; got it 17:02:28 +[IPcaller] 17:02:30 +??P69 17:02:33 +glenn 17:02:37 +hober; got it 17:02:43 Zakim, who is here? 17:02:53 Zakim [IPcaller] is me 17:03:01 On the phone I see ericm, divya, glazou, antonp, jdaggett, stearns, sylvaing, fantasai, ??P65, danielweck, kimberly, [Microsoft], [Apple], [IPcaller], ??P69, glenn 17:03:08 [Apple] has hober 17:03:12 [Microsoft] has johnjan 17:03:25 Zakim, [IPcaller] is vhardy 17:03:26 On IRC I see dbaron, JohnJan, TabAtkins_, vhardy, bradk, oyvind, danielweck, antonp, stearns, ericm, jdaggett, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, miketayl_r, nimbu, kojiishi, 17:03:30 ... ksweeney, ChrisL, glenn, karl, Simon, tantek, drublic, Ms2ger, florianr, krijnh, danielfilho, brianman, arronei_, mirrorshadetree, dglazkov, Hixie, plinss, Bert, hober, 17:03:36 ... trackbot, ed, TabAtkins, pjrm, shepazu, gsnedders, paul_irish, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot 17:03:38 +dbaron 17:03:40 +[IPcaller.a] 17:03:46 +[Microsoft.a] 17:03:48 Zakim, I am ??P69 17:03:54 +vhardy; got it 17:04:15 i can. 17:04:16 +florianr; got it 17:04:16 scribenick: sylvaing 17:04:27 thanks sylvaing 17:04:28 dsinger has joined #css 17:04:29 +??P91 17:04:40 smfr has joined #css 17:04:57 jdaggett: what of the status of Bucharest f2f? 17:05:17 vhardy: we have found reasonably priced hotels with availability that week. 17:05:40 +smfr 17:05:42 vhardy: so we need to choose whether we want to book early or make other arrangements. an email poll will follow 17:06:09 vhardy: i.e. do we go ahead with bucharest at those dates or do we change the dates and/or the locale 17:06:24 vhardy: the wiki page has information. we recommend sticking to the plan and booking as soon as possible 17:06:39 glazou: please send the WBS questionnaire asap 17:07:09 howcome has joined #css 17:07:31 Topic: appearance property 17:07:32 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0312.html 17:07:39 I can't get on the phone call. Getting a busy signal. 17:07:46 (having problems connecting to zakim) 17:08:00 jdaggett: tantek removed it from the spec so I don't think there is any discussion needed 17:08:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0395.html 17:08:15 Topic: moving Text features to L4 17:08:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0395.html 17:09:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0022.html 17:09:03 jdaggett: the text-transform property is L3 but the @text-transform rule is moved to L4 17:09:34 http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas:at-text-transform 17:09:38 zakim, who is here? 17:09:42 On the phone I see ericm, divya, glazou, antonp, jdaggett, stearns, sylvaing, fantasai, ??P65, danielweck, kimberly, [Microsoft], [Apple], vhardy, florianr, glenn, dbaron, 17:09:47 ... [IPcaller.a], [Microsoft.a], Bert, smfr 17:09:55 [Apple] has hober 17:09:55 [Microsoft] has johnjan 17:09:56 On IRC I see howcome, smfr, dsinger, dbaron, JohnJan, TabAtkins_, vhardy, bradk, oyvind, danielweck, antonp, stearns, ericm, jdaggett, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, 17:09:57 I think Florian's approach is a better way to go as it generalizes the feature 17:10:00 ... miketayl_r, nimbu, kojiishi, ksweeney, ChrisL, glenn, karl, Simon, tantek, drublic, Ms2ger, florianr, krijnh, danielfilho, brianman, arronei_, mirrorshadetree, dglazkov, Hixie, 17:10:03 ... plinss, Bert, hober, trackbot, ed, TabAtkins, pjrm, shepazu, gsnedders, paul_irish, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot 17:10:23 'orrible 17:10:29 florian: regarding that proposal, this is not something that meant to be ready soon 17:10:33 bradk: not the only one, took me four attempts to join the call... 17:10:44 florian: but it is intended to demonstrate we can generalize the feature 17:11:58 +howcome 17:12:26 +[IPcaller] 17:12:33 zakim, [ipcaller] is me 17:12:33 +kojiishi; got it 17:14:13 jdaggett: I think there are two issues; one mail was about splitting features between L3 and L4. But I'd like to agree on a way to resolve the underlying issues vs. which subset is resolved in which level 17:14:34 fantasai: I don't think @text-transform is as mature as many other features in the spec 17:15:02 fantasai: @text-transform has all the issues raised against text-replace, for instance 17:15:24 +Chris 17:15:42 fantasai: so I want to have this in L3. if we want to defer resolving full sized kana I'm fine with that. but I don't want to hold up Level 3 Text on the feature 17:16:12 (zakim was almost full, which is why some people could not connect) 17:16:30 howcome: I think we'd like to make sure we don't have a fork with EPUB who has a dependency on this feature 17:16:38 florian: how soon do we expect the spec to move forward? 17:16:44 fantasai: hopefully a couple of months 17:17:07 Rossen has joined #css 17:17:53 +[Microsoft.aa] 17:17:57 -florianr 17:18:32 note: I've made what I think are the last necessary edits to publish a second LCWD of CSS3-UI, including postponing 'pointer-events' to CSS4-UI because it has had the most issues of any feature for this draft, and because it requires documenting the previously undocumented hit-testing model. Per the desire to move more mature features more quickly, it didn't make sense to hold up the rest of CSS3-UI for 'pointer-events', so it got bumped to CSS4-UI. 17:18:34 sylvaing suggests EPUB dependencies should check for actual use and implementation 17:18:55 + +1.650.766.aabb 17:19:03 (cont'd) I'd inteded to checkin these edits before the telcon, but didn't quite make it. 17:19:13 zakim, aabb is me 17:19:13 +bradk; got it 17:19:31 howcome: my concern is that if we do not solve this EPUB will define their own version of it 17:19:34 Zakim, Microsoft.aa is Rossen 17:19:35 +Rossen; got it 17:19:50 fantasai: I do not think that's a concern. EPUB will not include @text-transform in their September spec 17:19:58 (cont'd) And I wanted to give a heads up here in the channel before I sent email to www-style stating that in my opinion CSS3-UI is ready for another LCWD and I'm asking the WG to resolve on this matter and publish it as such before year-end. 17:20:42 fantasai: I'm not arguing against defining a generic mechanism; only that if the feature is not ready at this point it's holding up the rest of the spec. i'd rather move it to the next level 17:21:09 jdaggett: I think we should just explicitly mark this issue in the spec for now 17:21:49 florian: we could also remove it and re-introduce it later if ready 17:22:59 ksweeney has left #css 17:23:40 request: glazou, plinss: please add "request WG to consider CSS3-UI LCWD publication" to the agenda. 17:23:47 jdaggett: why don't we use our wiki page wording for the spec to identify the issue clearly and move forward 17:23:49 thanks for your consideration 17:24:04 editor's draft is up to date: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/ 17:24:04 i think we should simply add in the @text-transform rule 17:24:15 and mark it with an explicit issue 17:24:17 florian: the concern seems to be about how fast we can achieve consensus 17:24:33 tantek: we'll do that after current item 17:25:04 the full-size-kana value should be explicitly marked as an alternate 17:27:54 Florian proposed marking the issue as "full-size-kana may be replaced by a generic @text-transform mechanism" 17:27:59 I agree with this proposal 17:28:02 I would like to go with that. 17:28:52 tantek, I think 'pointer-events' is one of the more important things in the draft 17:29:48 -??P65 17:30:29 RESOLVED indicate in CSS3 Text that "full-size-kana may be replaced by a generic @text-transform mechanism" 17:30:31 +??P1 17:30:33 and this should be marked as an issue 17:30:36 Zakim, ??P1 is me 17:30:36 +danielweck; got it 17:30:39 not just a note 17:30:50 RESOLVED move other features proposed in Elika's mail to L4 17:31:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0448.html 17:31:23 RESOLVED "full-size-kana may be replaced by a generic @text-transform mechanism" must be marked as a spec issue 17:33:33 florian: i am not a fan of line-break. i think it's improved but i still find issues with it 17:33:49 jdaggett: should we let Elika do all the edits and resume the discussion from a fresh draft 17:33:56 general agreement 17:34:15 prefers line-break be defined (not removed) 17:34:19 tantek: you on the call? 17:34:23 tantek: ping 17:34:43 Topic: error in @page grammar 17:34:48 http://www.w3.org/mid/20111206221126.GA13407@pickering.dbaron.org 17:35:18 dbaron: I think this is just a mistake in the draft 17:35:40 glazou: I did not understand why the presence of RULESET in the media production was an error. For page, maybe, but for media? 17:35:55 dbaron: you're right. 17:36:07 glazou: otherwise I agree that RULESET is incorrect here. The grammar should be fixed 17:36:30 ACTION Bert to fix the grammar per dbaron's post http://www.w3.org/mid/20111206221126.GA13407@pickering.dbaron.org 17:36:30 Created ACTION-412 - Fix the grammar per dbaron's post http://www.w3.org/mid/20111206221126.GA13407@pickering.dbaron.org [on Bert Bos - due 2011-12-21]. 17:36:42 Topic: css3-values 17:36:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0342.html 17:37:06 fantasai: the first issue was defining ranges for CSS. This is on arronei for next week 17:37:30 fantasai: the next was about whether we add an ideographic advance unit 17:37:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0888.html 17:37:43 jdaggett: I think this is very undefined 17:38:14 tantek: we need you on the call to discuss your extra agenda item... 17:38:16 jdaggett: it's not clear from the proposal what this means from an implementation standpoint 17:39:07 jdaggett: I think this feature is a candidate to move to L4; and in L4 I'm concerned about the definition 17:39:38 jdaggett: specifically the algorithm to use to calculate this metric 17:39:40 text-transform: full-size-kana 17:39:44 http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/baselinetags.htm#ideoembox 17:40:14 jdaggett: i don't think this is specified yet 17:40:30 jdaggett: i think this needs to move to L4 and get a better definition soon 17:40:42 RESOLVED move ideographic advance unit to Level 4 of css3-values 17:40:49 s/and/unless/ 17:40:53 http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/204 17:40:55 howcome has joined #css 17:41:02 fantasai: the next issue is about the attr() syntax 17:41:45 fantasai: we're trying to align the attr() syntax with the model of radial-gradient() 17:42:01 fantasai: the proposal is to drop the comma between the attribute name and the type keyword 17:42:14 dbaron: we do have other functions that use commas as well such as counter() 17:42:52 howcome: we do use the comma in multiple places and I don't see a full proposal on how this will be replaced consistently 17:43:08 glazou: I would also expect attr() to be extended in the future 17:43:38 fantasai: right, and this is why the current syntax is awkward e.g. imagine listing multiple attributes... 17:44:21 a::after { content: "(see page " target-counter(attr(href, url), page, decimal) ")" } 17:44:27 fantasai: ...then adding new arguments and preserving a fallback value requires nesting the attr construct 17:45:26 +tantek 17:45:34 Zakim, mute tantek 17:45:34 tantek should now be muted 17:46:06 glazou - I'm on the call, will be en route, please use Zakim to mute/unmute me as necessary. Thanks! 17:46:19 tantek: ok 17:46:28 tpod has joined #css 17:47:24 Commas or spaces? This is not about clip right? ;) 17:47:53 lol tpod 17:48:38 ACTION fantasai and Tab to look at functional notation extensibility in general 17:48:39 Created ACTION-413 - And Tab to look at functional notation extensibility in general [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-12-21]. 17:49:18 (There is an infinite number of keywords, if foo() is taken, there is still foo2()...) 17:49:56 Zakim, unmute tantek 17:49:57 tantek should no longer be muted 17:50:04 Zakim, mute tan 17:50:04 tantek should now be muted 17:50:47 howcome: regarding css3-values, it no longer specified fr but Grid still uses it 17:51:04 fantasai: we suggest Grid should define fr 17:51:36 fantasai: once it's clear the unit needs sharing across specs then we can pull it into Values & Units 17:51:45 -[Microsoft] 17:51:45 Zakim, unmute tantek 17:51:47 tantek should no longer be muted 17:51:49 lol 17:52:02 horrible sound 17:52:26 are you on the moon? 17:52:32 he's also drunk 17:52:45 "one small step for..." 17:53:31 OMG 17:53:52 Zakim, mute tantek 17:53:52 tantek should now be muted 17:54:08 my poor ears... 17:54:48 fantasai: tantek noticed that pointer-events raises a lot of issues and proposed moving it to css4-ui 17:55:08 dbaron: I think this is one of the most important issues in css3-ui so I'd like to look at the issues list first 17:55:20 dbaron: I think we can define some things without defining everything 17:55:31 ACTION dbaron to review css3-ui pointer-events issues list 17:55:32 Created ACTION-414 - Review css3-ui pointer-events issues list [on David Baron - due 2011-12-21]. 17:55:52 Topic: Transitions from 'display: none' 17:55:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0353.html 17:56:56 Topic change: publication of Exclusions and Shapes WD 17:57:10 howcome: issues reported at the f2f are missing from the draft 17:57:33 Re pointer events 17:57:35 rossen: we agreed to add all the issues to the spec. we did that. we also agreed to use bugzilla to track all of the issues 17:58:07 rossen: as to the format of the actual issues, if you want an inline verbatim 17:59:57 dbaron: I think we explicitly discussed describing the issue in the spec. this ended up as a link to a bug number. I also cannot find the issue I'm looking for. specifically building exclusions on top of the positioning model instead of floats 18:00:26 -danielweck.a 18:00:39 vhardy: clearly dbaron and howcome have a problem and we should update bugzilla to account for their issues. I'd like an agreement on how we track issues though as it helps me as an editor 18:01:04 vhardy: I'd rather not maintain issues in two places (in the spec and in bugzilla) 18:01:11 vhardy: maybe we can tool this 18:01:18 vhardy: but I'd like to have an agreement 18:01:48 vhardy: and that agreement should not be specific to just these two specs 18:02:00 -jdaggett 18:02:04 I don't think we need to turn everything into a general problem: the issue here was that a bunch of people wanted one particular issue to be noted in the prose of the spec so that readers were all aware of it. 18:02:09 -ericm 18:02:31 Problem is hit testing not prev defined 18:03:30 guys it's already 3 past the hour 18:03:47 -smfr 18:04:03 Zakim, mute Rossen 18:04:05 Rossen should now be muted 18:04:34 -antonp 18:04:37 antonp has left #css 18:05:09 sylvaing: In general you can follow the guidelines and track issues elsewhere, but occasionally there's a major issue that people want to be noted directly in the spec. This is one of those occasions. 18:05:29 RESOLVED update spec prose to reflect positioning dependency issue reported by dbaron 18:05:50 ok by me 18:06:16 Zakim, unmute Rossen 18:06:16 Rossen should no longer be muted 18:06:20 ACTION dbaron to propose the prose he wants to see in Exclusions 18:06:21 Created ACTION-415 - Propose the prose he wants to see in Exclusions [on David Baron - due 2011-12-21]. 18:06:44 fantasai: I suggest dbaron take an action item to propose the exact wording of this issue. I note that the minutes from the F2F do not reflect this. 18:06:58 -[Microsoft.a] 18:07:12 -Chris 18:07:13 my regrets for next 3 18:07:17 -kimberly 18:07:18 -vhardy 18:07:18 -glenn 18:07:20 -sylvaing 18:07:20 -howcome 18:07:20 -[IPcaller.a] 18:07:20 -dbaron 18:07:22 -Rossen 18:07:24 -[Apple] 18:07:26 -stearns 18:07:28 -glazou 18:07:30 -danielweck 18:07:32 -bradk 18:07:35 -Bert 18:07:36 -kojiishi 18:07:54 -tantek 18:07:58 glenn has left #css 18:08:03 glenn has joined #css 18:08:07 glenn has left #css 18:08:35 TabAtkins: I suggest linking to your spec feed from the wiki 18:10:36 stearns has joined #css 18:15:02 -divya 18:20:03 disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM 18:20:04 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 18:20:09 Attendees were ericm, divya, glazou, antonp, stearns, jdaggett, +1.603.957.aaaa, sylvaing, fantasai, kimberly, johnjan, danielweck, glenn, hober, dbaron, [Microsoft], vhardy, 18:20:12 ... florianr, smfr, Bert, howcome, kojiishi, Chris, +1.650.766.aabb, bradk, Rossen, tantek 18:36:56 tpod has joined #css 18:37:36 tantek has joined #css 18:41:08 tantek_ has joined #css 18:41:31 tpod_ has joined #css 18:43:25 tpod has joined #css 18:49:39 dbaron, following-up on pointer-events, the problems are both the issue rate *and* more importantly the fact that it involves/requires defining how hit-testing works in the web platform which I have a draft for but which is substantially newly documented functionality, and that's certainly not LCWD ready (nor would I expect it to be for months). 18:50:39 I'd rather get the current stable set of CSS3-UI features to CR *asap* so we can legitimately remove prefixes (if any), test for interop, and drop / postpone at-risk features as necessary to 4. 18:53:54 fantasai: Yeah, that's a good idea. 19:16:25 tantek has joined #css 19:33:58 nimbu has joined #css 19:36:02 dbaron has joined #css 19:57:41 nimbu has joined #css 20:28:03 Zakim has left #css 21:27:12 pjrm has joined #css 21:43:54 karl has joined #CSS 21:48:37 danielfilho_ has joined #css 21:49:55 tantek has joined #css 22:30:17 drublic_ has joined #css 22:33:46 pheleas_frog has joined #css 22:34:01 5on5 - level : low ---- server off 22:34:29 SERVER: OFF || LEVEL: LOW || 5ON5 22:34:32 paul_irish: IIRC that early in the game, there wasn't a practice of changing the specs to match implementations, only the other way 'round. IE was clearly buggy wrt the spec, and emeyer and written tests to show this. (See Acid 1, for example.) 22:35:10 paul_irish: Also, WG technical discussion wasn't on the public list until 2007 or so. 22:47:07 stearns_ has joined #css 22:47:16 stearns_ has joined #css 22:47:22 drublic has joined #css 22:54:10 trackbot has joined #css 22:55:26 dbaron has joined #css 22:59:11 trackbot has joined #css 23:10:22 arronei has joined #css 23:14:45 miketaylr has joined #css 23:36:42 miketaylr has joined #css 23:37:06 <_OWEN> _OWEN has joined #css 23:37:15 <_OWEN> Hello! anybody familiar with LESS? 23:37:44 you should ask in a freenode channel for less :) 23:37:47 or in #html5 23:37:52 (freenode that is) 23:38:05 <_OWEN> didn't know there was a less channel thankms 23:39:42 brianman has joined #css 23:47:28 miketaylr has joined #css 23:47:47 miketayl_r has joined #css 23:52:06 miketaylr has joined #css