IRC log of css on 2011-12-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:29:10 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:29:15 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:29:15 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
16:29:20 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:47:39 [ericm]
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16:48:50 [Ms2ger]
You're lucky there is no table layout spec, then
16:52:35 [glazou]
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16:56:19 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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16:57:46 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P54 is me
16:57:46 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:57:59 [danielweck]
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16:58:58 [Zakim]
16:59:11 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p59 is me
16:59:14 [Zakim]
16:59:33 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:59:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.957.aaaa
16:59:41 [sylvaing]
Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
17:00:12 [oyvind]
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+sylvaing; got it
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17:01:03 [vhardy]
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17:01:17 [JohnJan]
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17:01:18 [Zakim]
17:01:26 [JohnJan]
zakim, microsoft has johnjan
17:01:27 [Zakim]
17:01:42 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P67 is me
17:01:49 [Zakim]
17:01:57 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
17:02:07 [Zakim]
17:02:10 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has hober
17:02:16 [dbaron]
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17:02:17 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
17:02:28 [Zakim]
17:02:30 [Zakim]
17:02:33 [Zakim]
17:02:37 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
17:02:43 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
17:02:53 [vhardy]
Zakim [IPcaller] is me
17:03:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ericm, divya, glazou, antonp, jdaggett, stearns, sylvaing, fantasai, ??P65, danielweck, kimberly, [Microsoft], [Apple], [IPcaller], ??P69, glenn
17:03:08 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
17:03:12 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has johnjan
17:03:25 [Ms2ger]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is vhardy
17:03:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dbaron, JohnJan, TabAtkins_, vhardy, bradk, oyvind, danielweck, antonp, stearns, ericm, jdaggett, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, miketayl_r, nimbu, kojiishi,
17:03:30 [Zakim]
... ksweeney, ChrisL, glenn, karl, Simon, tantek, drublic, Ms2ger, florianr, krijnh, danielfilho, brianman, arronei_, mirrorshadetree, dglazkov, Hixie, plinss, Bert, hober,
17:03:36 [Zakim]
... trackbot, ed, TabAtkins, pjrm, shepazu, gsnedders, paul_irish, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot
17:03:38 [Zakim]
17:03:40 [Zakim]
17:03:46 [Zakim]
17:03:48 [florianr]
Zakim, I am ??P69
17:03:54 [Zakim]
+vhardy; got it
17:04:15 [nimbu]
i can.
17:04:16 [Zakim]
+florianr; got it
17:04:16 [sylvaing]
scribenick: sylvaing
17:04:27 [nimbu]
thanks sylvaing
17:04:28 [dsinger]
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17:04:29 [Zakim]
17:04:40 [smfr]
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17:04:57 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: what of the status of Bucharest f2f?
17:05:17 [sylvaing]
vhardy: we have found reasonably priced hotels with availability that week.
17:05:40 [Zakim]
17:05:42 [sylvaing]
vhardy: so we need to choose whether we want to book early or make other arrangements. an email poll will follow
17:06:09 [sylvaing]
vhardy: i.e. do we go ahead with bucharest at those dates or do we change the dates and/or the locale
17:06:24 [sylvaing]
vhardy: the wiki page has information. we recommend sticking to the plan and booking as soon as possible
17:06:39 [sylvaing]
glazou: please send the WBS questionnaire asap
17:07:09 [howcome]
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17:07:31 [sylvaing]
Topic: appearance property
17:07:32 [sylvaing]
17:07:39 [bradk]
I can't get on the phone call. Getting a busy signal.
17:07:46 [ChrisL]
(having problems connecting to zakim)
17:08:00 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: tantek removed it from the spec so I don't think there is any discussion needed
17:08:14 [jdaggett]
17:08:15 [sylvaing]
Topic: moving Text features to L4
17:08:15 [sylvaing]
17:09:02 [jdaggett]
17:09:03 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: the text-transform property is L3 but the @text-transform rule is moved to L4
17:09:34 [jdaggett]
17:09:38 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
17:09:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ericm, divya, glazou, antonp, jdaggett, stearns, sylvaing, fantasai, ??P65, danielweck, kimberly, [Microsoft], [Apple], vhardy, florianr, glenn, dbaron,
17:09:47 [Zakim]
... [IPcaller.a], [Microsoft.a], Bert, smfr
17:09:55 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
17:09:55 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has johnjan
17:09:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see howcome, smfr, dsinger, dbaron, JohnJan, TabAtkins_, vhardy, bradk, oyvind, danielweck, antonp, stearns, ericm, jdaggett, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou,
17:09:57 [sylvaing]
I think Florian's approach is a better way to go as it generalizes the feature
17:10:00 [Zakim]
... miketayl_r, nimbu, kojiishi, ksweeney, ChrisL, glenn, karl, Simon, tantek, drublic, Ms2ger, florianr, krijnh, danielfilho, brianman, arronei_, mirrorshadetree, dglazkov, Hixie,
17:10:03 [Zakim]
... plinss, Bert, hober, trackbot, ed, TabAtkins, pjrm, shepazu, gsnedders, paul_irish, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot
17:10:23 [bradk]
17:10:29 [sylvaing]
florian: regarding that proposal, this is not something that meant to be ready soon
17:10:33 [glazou]
bradk: not the only one, took me four attempts to join the call...
17:10:44 [sylvaing]
florian: but it is intended to demonstrate we can generalize the feature
17:11:58 [Zakim]
17:12:26 [Zakim]
17:12:33 [kojiishi]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
17:12:33 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
17:14:13 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I think there are two issues; one mail was about splitting features between L3 and L4. But I'd like to agree on a way to resolve the underlying issues vs. which subset is resolved in which level
17:14:34 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I don't think @text-transform is as mature as many other features in the spec
17:15:02 [sylvaing]
fantasai: @text-transform has all the issues raised against text-replace, for instance
17:15:24 [Zakim]
17:15:42 [sylvaing]
fantasai: so I want to have this in L3. if we want to defer resolving full sized kana I'm fine with that. but I don't want to hold up Level 3 Text on the feature
17:16:12 [ChrisL]
(zakim was almost full, which is why some people could not connect)
17:16:30 [sylvaing]
howcome: I think we'd like to make sure we don't have a fork with EPUB who has a dependency on this feature
17:16:38 [sylvaing]
florian: how soon do we expect the spec to move forward?
17:16:44 [sylvaing]
fantasai: hopefully a couple of months
17:17:07 [Rossen]
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17:17:53 [Zakim]
17:17:57 [Zakim]
17:18:32 [tantek]
note: I've made what I think are the last necessary edits to publish a second LCWD of CSS3-UI, including postponing 'pointer-events' to CSS4-UI because it has had the most issues of any feature for this draft, and because it requires documenting the previously undocumented hit-testing model. Per the desire to move more mature features more quickly, it didn't make sense to hold up the rest of CSS3-UI for 'pointer-events', so it got bumped to CSS4-UI.
17:18:34 [sylvaing]
sylvaing suggests EPUB dependencies should check for actual use and implementation
17:18:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aabb
17:19:03 [tantek]
(cont'd) I'd inteded to checkin these edits before the telcon, but didn't quite make it.
17:19:13 [bradk]
zakim, aabb is me
17:19:13 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
17:19:31 [sylvaing]
howcome: my concern is that if we do not solve this EPUB will define their own version of it
17:19:34 [Rossen]
Zakim, Microsoft.aa is Rossen
17:19:35 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
17:19:50 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I do not think that's a concern. EPUB will not include @text-transform in their September spec
17:19:58 [tantek]
(cont'd) And I wanted to give a heads up here in the channel before I sent email to www-style stating that in my opinion CSS3-UI is ready for another LCWD and I'm asking the WG to resolve on this matter and publish it as such before year-end.
17:20:42 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I'm not arguing against defining a generic mechanism; only that if the feature is not ready at this point it's holding up the rest of the spec. i'd rather move it to the next level
17:21:09 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I think we should just explicitly mark this issue in the spec for now
17:21:49 [sylvaing]
florian: we could also remove it and re-introduce it later if ready
17:22:59 [ksweeney]
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17:23:40 [tantek]
request: glazou, plinss: please add "request WG to consider CSS3-UI LCWD publication" to the agenda.
17:23:47 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: why don't we use our wiki page wording for the spec to identify the issue clearly and move forward
17:23:49 [tantek]
thanks for your consideration
17:24:04 [tantek]
editor's draft is up to date:
17:24:04 [jdaggett]
i think we should simply add in the @text-transform rule
17:24:15 [jdaggett]
and mark it with an explicit issue
17:24:17 [sylvaing]
florian: the concern seems to be about how fast we can achieve consensus
17:24:33 [glazou]
tantek: we'll do that after current item
17:25:04 [jdaggett]
the full-size-kana value should be explicitly marked as an alternate
17:27:54 [fantasai]
Florian proposed marking the issue as "full-size-kana may be replaced by a generic @text-transform mechanism"
17:27:59 [fantasai]
I agree with this proposal
17:28:02 [fantasai]
I would like to go with that.
17:28:52 [dbaron]
tantek, I think 'pointer-events' is one of the more important things in the draft
17:29:48 [Zakim]
17:30:29 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED indicate in CSS3 Text that "full-size-kana may be replaced by a generic @text-transform mechanism"
17:30:31 [Zakim]
17:30:33 [jdaggett]
and this should be marked as an issue
17:30:36 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
17:30:36 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
17:30:39 [jdaggett]
not just a note
17:30:50 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED move other features proposed in Elika's mail to L4
17:31:22 [fantasai]
17:31:23 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED "full-size-kana may be replaced by a generic @text-transform mechanism" must be marked as a spec issue
17:33:33 [sylvaing]
florian: i am not a fan of line-break. i think it's improved but i still find issues with it
17:33:49 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: should we let Elika do all the edits and resume the discussion from a fresh draft
17:33:56 [sylvaing]
general agreement
17:34:15 [glenn]
prefers line-break be defined (not removed)
17:34:19 [glazou]
tantek: you on the call?
17:34:23 [jdaggett]
tantek: ping
17:34:43 [sylvaing]
Topic: error in @page grammar
17:34:48 [sylvaing]
17:35:18 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I think this is just a mistake in the draft
17:35:40 [sylvaing]
glazou: I did not understand why the presence of RULESET in the media production was an error. For page, maybe, but for media?
17:35:55 [sylvaing]
dbaron: you're right.
17:36:07 [sylvaing]
glazou: otherwise I agree that RULESET is incorrect here. The grammar should be fixed
17:36:30 [sylvaing]
ACTION Bert to fix the grammar per dbaron's post
17:36:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-412 - Fix the grammar per dbaron's post [on Bert Bos - due 2011-12-21].
17:36:42 [sylvaing]
Topic: css3-values
17:36:42 [sylvaing]
17:37:06 [sylvaing]
fantasai: the first issue was defining ranges for CSS. This is on arronei for next week
17:37:30 [sylvaing]
fantasai: the next was about whether we add an ideographic advance unit
17:37:33 [fantasai]
17:37:43 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I think this is very undefined
17:38:14 [glazou]
tantek: we need you on the call to discuss your extra agenda item...
17:38:16 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: it's not clear from the proposal what this means from an implementation standpoint
17:39:07 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I think this feature is a candidate to move to L4; and in L4 I'm concerned about the definition
17:39:38 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: specifically the algorithm to use to calculate this metric
17:39:40 [kojiishi]
text-transform: full-size-kana
17:39:44 [kojiishi]
17:40:14 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: i don't think this is specified yet
17:40:30 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: i think this needs to move to L4 and get a better definition soon
17:40:42 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED move ideographic advance unit to Level 4 of css3-values
17:40:49 [florianr]
17:40:53 [fantasai]
17:40:55 [howcome]
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17:41:02 [sylvaing]
fantasai: the next issue is about the attr() syntax
17:41:45 [sylvaing]
fantasai: we're trying to align the attr() syntax with the model of radial-gradient()
17:42:01 [sylvaing]
fantasai: the proposal is to drop the comma between the attribute name and the type keyword
17:42:14 [sylvaing]
dbaron: we do have other functions that use commas as well such as counter()
17:42:52 [sylvaing]
howcome: we do use the comma in multiple places and I don't see a full proposal on how this will be replaced consistently
17:43:08 [sylvaing]
glazou: I would also expect attr() to be extended in the future
17:43:38 [sylvaing]
fantasai: right, and this is why the current syntax is awkward e.g. imagine listing multiple attributes...
17:44:21 [howcome]
a::after { content: "(see page " target-counter(attr(href, url), page, decimal) ")" }
17:44:27 [sylvaing]
fantasai: ...then adding new arguments and preserving a fallback value requires nesting the attr construct
17:45:26 [Zakim]
17:45:34 [tantek]
Zakim, mute tantek
17:45:34 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
17:46:06 [tantek]
glazou - I'm on the call, will be en route, please use Zakim to mute/unmute me as necessary. Thanks!
17:46:19 [glazou]
tantek: ok
17:46:28 [tpod]
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17:47:24 [tpod]
Commas or spaces? This is not about clip right? ;)
17:47:53 [glazou]
lol tpod
17:48:38 [sylvaing]
ACTION fantasai and Tab to look at functional notation extensibility in general
17:48:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-413 - And Tab to look at functional notation extensibility in general [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-12-21].
17:49:18 [Bert]
(There is an infinite number of keywords, if foo() is taken, there is still foo2()...)
17:49:56 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute tantek
17:49:57 [Zakim]
tantek should no longer be muted
17:50:04 [glazou]
Zakim, mute tan
17:50:04 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
17:50:47 [sylvaing]
howcome: regarding css3-values, it no longer specified fr but Grid still uses it
17:51:04 [sylvaing]
fantasai: we suggest Grid should define fr
17:51:36 [sylvaing]
fantasai: once it's clear the unit needs sharing across specs then we can pull it into Values & Units
17:51:45 [Zakim]
17:51:45 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute tantek
17:51:47 [Zakim]
tantek should no longer be muted
17:51:49 [smfr]
17:52:02 [danielweck]
horrible sound
17:52:26 [danielweck]
are you on the moon?
17:52:32 [smfr]
he's also drunk
17:52:45 [danielweck]
"one small step for..."
17:53:31 [glazou]
17:53:52 [glazou]
Zakim, mute tantek
17:53:52 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
17:54:08 [glazou]
my poor ears...
17:54:48 [sylvaing]
fantasai: tantek noticed that pointer-events raises a lot of issues and proposed moving it to css4-ui
17:55:08 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I think this is one of the most important issues in css3-ui so I'd like to look at the issues list first
17:55:20 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I think we can define some things without defining everything
17:55:31 [sylvaing]
ACTION dbaron to review css3-ui pointer-events issues list
17:55:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-414 - Review css3-ui pointer-events issues list [on David Baron - due 2011-12-21].
17:55:52 [sylvaing]
Topic: Transitions from 'display: none'
17:55:56 [sylvaing]
17:56:56 [sylvaing]
Topic change: publication of Exclusions and Shapes WD
17:57:10 [sylvaing]
howcome: issues reported at the f2f are missing from the draft
17:57:33 [tpod]
Re pointer events
17:57:35 [sylvaing]
rossen: we agreed to add all the issues to the spec. we did that. we also agreed to use bugzilla to track all of the issues
17:58:07 [sylvaing]
rossen: as to the format of the actual issues, if you want an inline verbatim
17:59:57 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I think we explicitly discussed describing the issue in the spec. this ended up as a link to a bug number. I also cannot find the issue I'm looking for. specifically building exclusions on top of the positioning model instead of floats
18:00:26 [Zakim]
18:00:39 [sylvaing]
vhardy: clearly dbaron and howcome have a problem and we should update bugzilla to account for their issues. I'd like an agreement on how we track issues though as it helps me as an editor
18:01:04 [sylvaing]
vhardy: I'd rather not maintain issues in two places (in the spec and in bugzilla)
18:01:11 [sylvaing]
vhardy: maybe we can tool this
18:01:18 [sylvaing]
vhardy: but I'd like to have an agreement
18:01:48 [sylvaing]
vhardy: and that agreement should not be specific to just these two specs
18:02:00 [Zakim]
18:02:04 [dbaron]
I don't think we need to turn everything into a general problem: the issue here was that a bunch of people wanted one particular issue to be noted in the prose of the spec so that readers were all aware of it.
18:02:09 [Zakim]
18:02:31 [tpod]
Problem is hit testing not prev defined
18:03:30 [glazou]
guys it's already 3 past the hour
18:03:47 [Zakim]
18:04:03 [glazou]
Zakim, mute Rossen
18:04:05 [Zakim]
Rossen should now be muted
18:04:34 [Zakim]
18:04:37 [antonp]
antonp has left #css
18:05:09 [fantasai]
sylvaing: In general you can follow the guidelines and track issues elsewhere, but occasionally there's a major issue that people want to be noted directly in the spec. This is one of those occasions.
18:05:29 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED update spec prose to reflect positioning dependency issue reported by dbaron
18:05:50 [ChrisL]
ok by me
18:06:16 [Rossen]
Zakim, unmute Rossen
18:06:16 [Zakim]
Rossen should no longer be muted
18:06:20 [sylvaing]
ACTION dbaron to propose the prose he wants to see in Exclusions
18:06:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-415 - Propose the prose he wants to see in Exclusions [on David Baron - due 2011-12-21].
18:06:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: I suggest dbaron take an action item to propose the exact wording of this issue. I note that the minutes from the F2F do not reflect this.
18:06:58 [Zakim]
18:07:12 [Zakim]
18:07:13 [ChrisL]
my regrets for next 3
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18:07:58 [glenn]
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18:08:35 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I suggest linking to your spec feed from the wiki
18:10:36 [stearns]
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18:15:02 [Zakim]
18:20:03 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
18:20:04 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:20:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were ericm, divya, glazou, antonp, stearns, jdaggett, +1.603.957.aaaa, sylvaing, fantasai, kimberly, johnjan, danielweck, glenn, hober, dbaron, [Microsoft], vhardy,
18:20:12 [Zakim]
... florianr, smfr, Bert, howcome, kojiishi, Chris, +1.650.766.aabb, bradk, Rossen, tantek
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18:49:39 [tantek]
dbaron, following-up on pointer-events, the problems are both the issue rate *and* more importantly the fact that it involves/requires defining how hit-testing works in the web platform which I have a draft for but which is substantially newly documented functionality, and that's certainly not LCWD ready (nor would I expect it to be for months).
18:50:39 [tantek]
I'd rather get the current stable set of CSS3-UI features to CR *asap* so we can legitimately remove prefixes (if any), test for interop, and drop / postpone at-risk features as necessary to 4.
18:53:54 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Yeah, that's a good idea.
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22:34:01 [pheleas_frog]
5on5 - level : low ---- server off
22:34:29 [pheleas_frog]
22:34:32 [fantasai]
paul_irish: IIRC that early in the game, there wasn't a practice of changing the specs to match implementations, only the other way 'round. IE was clearly buggy wrt the spec, and emeyer and written tests to show this. (See Acid 1, for example.)
22:35:10 [fantasai]
paul_irish: Also, WG technical discussion wasn't on the public list until 2007 or so.
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23:37:15 [_OWEN]
Hello! anybody familiar with LESS?
23:37:44 [nimbu]
you should ask in a freenode channel for less :)
23:37:47 [nimbu]
or in #html5
23:37:52 [nimbu]
(freenode that is)
23:38:05 [_OWEN]
didn't know there was a less channel thankms
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