16:53:46 RRSAgent has joined #aapi 16:53:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-irc 16:53:52 rrsagent, make logs public 16:54:02 rrsagent, make log world 16:54:11 Scribe: Andi_Snow-Weaver 16:54:17 ScribeNick: Andi 16:54:23 Meeting: AAPI 16:54:30 Chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver 16:54:36 rrsagent, off 17:04:01 topic: action-925 17:04:14 ARIA TF agreed we can defer to after LC but we need to include an editorial note 17:04:29 use asterisk, footnote, or refer to a section that contains the ed note 17:04:33 topic: ISSUE-466 17:05:32 in ARIA spec and UAIG... 17:05:34 "Except for the cases outlined below, user agents MUST always use the WAI-ARIA semantics to define how it exposes the element to accessibility APIs, rather than using the host language semantics. 17:05:59 "When a WAI-ARIA role is provided, user agents MUST use the semantic of the WAI-ARIA role for processing, not the native semantic, unless the role requires WAI-ARIA states and properties whose attributes that are explicitly forbidden on the native element by the host language." 17:07:55 AS: think the assumption when these statements were written was that this applies when there is a direct mapping from the ARIA role to the AAPI role 17:08:25 AS: the situation in ISSUE-466 is where there is not a direct mapping to the AAPI, as is the caes with landmarks 17:08:52 DB: so we need to clarify the text without causing the ARIA spec to revert to LC 17:09:15 s/DB: so we need/CS: so we need 17:09:35 +??P19 17:09:51 zakim, ??P19 is Michael_Cooper 17:09:51 +Michael_Cooper; got it 17:12:53 MC: if we put in a clarifying statement, does it change the normative requirement in WAI-ARIA 17:13:13 CS: on the edge - implementers have interpreted the spec differently 17:13:55 MC: could put in an editorial note but then may have a problem with the comments received 17:14:10 MC: in some cases, we have deferred changes to 1.1 17:14:38 MC: asking for feedback is the best idea 17:14:51 MC: in practice, some of this may be dealt with by the HTML implementation guide 17:15:09 CS: probably not in this case where the ARIA role has no direct mapping to an AAPI role 17:15:45 Safari does not expose the native semantics. IE and FF do expose them. 17:16:00 s/Safari/CS: Safari/ 17:16:35 DB: in FF, provide all information to the AT and let them make the decision 17:17:14 MC: strategically, proposed clarification statement supports what two browsers are doing - would be able to pass CR 17:17:41 MC: unless Apple files a formal objection, this will not affect ARIA 1.0 getting to Rec 17:18:02 CS: Apple agreed with the resolution of the issue 17:18:17 CS: don't expect they would file a formal objection 17:19:20 AS: do we need the editorial note or can we just review draft text with James prior to publication? 17:19:41 CS: think we should include the note - there may be others who would have an issue 17:19:49 AS: Google does plan to review the UAIG 17:22:05 MC: suggest text for ed note - requirement interpreted in two ways, text seems to impose a requirement that was only intended in certain cases 17:22:06 -Michael_Cooper 17:25:20 -David_Bolter 17:25:22 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 17:25:23 WAI_PFWG(AAPI)12:00PM has ended 17:25:25 Attendees were David_Bolter, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper 17:25:29 zakim, bye 17:25:29 Zakim has left #aapi 17:25:52 topic: Meeting the next two weeks? 17:26:35 AS: on vacation, expect all action items to be done and editing complete by the end of this week 17:26:56 AS: propose no meeting December 20th and 27th 17:27:44 AS: next meeting will be the first day back from the holiday for most people - January 3rd - could start talking about test approaches and thinking about additional testing required for the UAIG beyond what is already being done for WAI-ARIA. 17:28:08 Agreed 17:28:13 rrsagent, make minutes 17:28:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html Andi 17:28:57 s/action-925/ACTION-925/ 17:29:01 rrsagent, make minut4es 17:29:01 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minut4es', Andi. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:29:11 rrsagent, make minutes 17:29:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html Andi 17:29:55 s/caes with landmarks/case with landmarks/ 17:30:00 rrsagent, make minutes 17:30:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html Andi 20:08:07 RRSAgent has joined #aapi 20:08:07 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-irc 20:08:17 Zakim has joined #aapi 20:08:18 lweiss has joined #aapi 20:08:23 zakim, this will be aapi 20:08:23 ok, Char, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM already started 20:08:30 rrsagent, make logs public 20:08:36 Scribe: Char James-Tanny 20:08:46 Meeting: AAPI 20:09:06 Chair: Cynthia Shelly 20:09:17 Zakim, who is on the phone? 20:09:17 On the phone I see Char, [IPcaller], [Mozilla], ??P6, [Microsoft], +1.519.597.aaaa, [Microsoft.a] 20:09:17 jkiss has joined #aapi 20:09:37 Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter 20:09:37 +David_Bolter; got it 20:11:06 sorry redialing in, had an issue with my connectiong 20:11:33 - +1.519.597.aaaa 20:11:52 Zakim, Microsoft has me 20:11:52 +cyns; got it 20:11:58 Present: Cynthia Shelly, Char James-Tanny, Steve Faulkner, Jason Kiss, David Bolter, John S Lee, Larry Weiss 20:12:08 Topic: Status Update 20:12:19 test 20:12:20 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/tip/Overview.html 20:12:27 cyns has joined #aapi 20:12:37 Steve: Current state of "HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide" 20:12:39 Zakmi, Microosft has me 20:12:52 Zakim, Microsoft has me 20:12:52 cyns was already listed in [Microsoft], cyns 20:13:36 Steve: Some information was taken from the ARIA guide; one table was taken from the HTML spec 20:14:40 Steve: Main role table isn't complete, but has a lot of data already. Attribute table has very little data. 20:15:55 Steve: Has started to provide accessible name information for various types of inputs 20:16:23 Steve: Has been asking for feedback from implementors (current/future) on format 20:17:23 Steve: Only feedback has been received from Alexander (need last name) because it was specifically asked for, will be simplifying form for accessible names 20:18:22 Steve: Would like other implementor feedback as well. Would like to avoid ambiguity and over-simplification. 20:18:30 Alexander Surkov 20:20:36 + +1.519.597.aabb 20:20:39 Steve: More information coming from specs 20:21:02 zakim, aabb is JohnS 20:21:02 +JohnS; got it 20:21:21 Action: Identify appropriate people at vendors who we should talk to 20:23:11 Steve: Firefox has added an algorithm to determine if table is layout or data; would be nice if other browsers did the same. 20:23:50 Steve: Char (as tech writer) could help figure out if steps are documented correctly 20:24:18 Cyns: Has worked more on other document 20:24:52 Cyns: Is listed as an editor, will be working primarily on specific areas 20:26:53 Steve: we can add columns to the existing table to account for Blackberry information 20:27:37 Steve: we have to look at how we actually format the information, because too many columns will be unwieldy 20:28:16 Action: Look at how information is formatted to make it more usable (without too many columns) 20:28:27 http://www.accessibleculture.org/misc-tests/w3c/html-api/html5-api-elements-mac-actual.html 20:28:43 Jason: Has started working on mappings in Mac accessibility API 20:29:34 http://www.accessibleculture.org/misc-tests/w3c/html-api/elements.html 20:29:45 Jason: Creating elements as needed to test them 20:30:21 Jason: will be looking at this some more during week between Christmas and New Year's 20:30:30 http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/form-test.html 20:31:44 Steve: will list tests he's used for the different elements 20:32:03 http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/ARIA-tests/ 20:35:07 cyns: Need to decide how to manage bugs list 20:35:27 cyns has joined #aapi 20:35:33 Action: Get BugZilla set up for work management 20:36:00 Action: Cyns will go through and add current items to BugZilla 20:36:16 cyns: wonders if any HTML5 deadlines impact anything we're doing 20:37:11 cyns: Would like to have solid draft to use for testing with IE10 20:37:43 cyns: would like solid draft by end of January (which does not necessarily have anything to do with IE10) 20:38:07 Steve: document was originally intended as informative, not normative 20:38:36 cyns: Normative docs are official W3C specs, have been tested, are conformant 20:39:03 January date is not related to IE10, but to having something useful soon 20:39:16 cyns: implementors would decide if document needs to be informative or normative 20:40:13 cyns: need to figure out where the holes are, probably big holes in UA stuff 20:40:24 -JohnS 20:42:04 Steve: ARIA implementation is probably more convergent than HTML API doc 20:42:32 cyns: need to document what's currently happening and what's in the guide to determine where the differences are 20:43:28 Steve: should there be other roles, and if yes, how do we add them? Need to get them defined within existing APIs 20:43:45 WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/ 20:43:54 + +226339aacc 20:47:05 cyns: open issue with control types and UIA, roles, (pipes) 20:47:07 char: larry weiss 20:47:23 jkiss has joined #aapi 20:48:40 Steve: David has been working on new role information (pointed to an MDN document) 20:48:43 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html 20:49:43 Steve: process for adding a role is laborious, although much easier on the Mac API (just need to indicate name and definition for Mac) 20:50:17 Davidb: little bit of information in UUAG, but not really documented 20:51:19 cyns: for UIA, combine patterns to create roles; patterns are invokable and selectable 20:54:16 Steve: Web Components is something we need to be thinking about (link above). Talks about extending elements. Have to watch out for hazards and API mappings. 20:55:05 lweiss: talking about information that can be retrieved, doesn't talk about how browser determines structure, doesn't talk about any direct AT interaction with elements 20:55:41 cyns: ARIA is one-way API, HTML is not 20:56:07 davidb: we need to talk about HTML events, too 20:56:49 stevef: HTML API document hasn't been completely scoped out 20:56:59 Action: Have to add Actions and Events sections to HTML API doc 20:59:26 Action: Steve will set up wiki page with base information, will collect test URLs 20:59:47 Action: Jason will add Mac stuff to wiki once it's set up 21:00:28 Action: Char will talk to implementors on what would be most useful (until she can actually edit) 21:01:20 cyns: group will meet weekly, except over holidays 21:01:55 Action: David will do something with documents, will come up with automatic process for Firefox mapping 21:02:20 cyns: next meeting will be January 3 21:02:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:02:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html Char 21:02:39 -David_Bolter 21:02:42 -[Microsoft.a] 21:02:43 -[Microsoft] 21:02:43 -[IPcaller] 21:02:43 - +226339aacc 21:02:45 -??P6 21:02:45 -Char 21:02:45 WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has ended 21:02:47 Attendees were Char, [IPcaller], +1.519.597.aaaa, David_Bolter, cyns, +1.519.597.aabb, JohnS, +226339aacc 21:02:49 jkiss has left #aapi 21:02:57 cyns has joined #aapi 21:03:04 lweiss has left #aapi 21:03:06 char, do you know how to generate minutes? 22:51:10 Zakim has left #aapi 23:44:43 davidb has joined #aapi