15:56:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webtv
15:56:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-webtv-irc
15:57:06 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
15:57:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P41, Kazuyuki
15:57:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, kaz, Bob, glenn, masao, trackbot
15:58:03 <kaz> zakim, ??P41 is Bob_Lund
15:58:04 <Clarke> Clarke has joined #webtv
15:58:09 <Zakim> +Bob_Lund; got it
15:58:20 <Zakim> +glenn
15:58:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:12 <kaz> zakim, IPcaller is Mark_Watson
15:59:12 <Zakim> +Mark_Watson; got it
15:59:34 <mark> mark has joined #webtv
15:59:55 <jasonlewis> jasonlewis has joined #webtv
15:59:57 <Zakim> +Jan_Lindquist
16:00:00 <duncanr> duncanr has joined #webtv
16:00:22 <Zakim> +??P56
16:00:38 <Clarke> zakim, ??P56 is me
16:00:39 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
16:00:39 <kaz> zakim, ??P56 is Clarke_Stevens
16:00:43 <Zakim> +Duncan
16:00:45 <Zakim> I already had ??P56 as Clarke, kaz
16:01:00 <Clarke> OK, who am i?
16:01:20 <Clarke> got it
16:01:43 <Zakim> +Bjorn,Satish
16:02:08 <Clarke> Can we get a volunteer to scribe?
16:02:10 <glenn> zakim, who is noisy?
16:02:16 <Zakim> +Canon
16:02:41 <kaz> zakim, Canon is Franck
16:02:49 <Zakim> glenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bjorn,Satish (38%), Canon (34%), Clarke (10%)
16:02:52 <ph> ph has joined #webtv
16:02:55 <Zakim> + +1.360.367.aaaa
16:03:00 <ph> zakim, call philipp-home
16:03:09 <Zakim> +Franck; got it
16:03:11 <kaz> zakim, aaaa is Russell
16:03:28 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
16:03:33 <Zakim> ok, ph; the call is being made
16:03:37 <Zakim> +Philipp
16:03:49 <Zakim> +Russell; got it
16:04:08 <Clarke> Here is the agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Agenda_Telco_8th_December_2011
16:04:11 <Juhani> Juhani has joined #webtv
16:04:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bob_Lund, Kazuyuki, glenn, Mark_Watson, Jan_Lindquist, Clarke, Duncan, Bjorn,Satish, Franck, Russell, Philipp
16:04:39 <Zakim> +??P34
16:04:47 <kaz> zakim, ??P34 is Juhani
16:05:00 <kaz> zakim, ??P34 is Jason_Lewis
16:05:29 <ph> zakim, pick scribe
16:05:39 <Zakim> +Juhani; got it
16:05:48 <mav> mav has joined #webtv
16:05:55 <Zakim> I already had ??P34 as Juhani, kaz
16:05:56 <kaz> zakim, Bjorn,Satish is Jason_Lewis
16:05:58 <franck> franck has joined #webtv
16:06:16 <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
16:06:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick scribe', ph
16:06:56 <Zakim> + +1.858.942.aabb
16:06:58 <Zakim> +Jason_Lewis; got it
16:07:17 <eric> eric has joined #webtv
16:08:09 <Graham> Graham has joined #webtv
16:08:12 <Zakim> +??P70
16:08:17 <kaz> zakim, aabb is Eric_Winkelman
16:08:29 <kaz> zakim, ??P70 is Graham_Clift
16:08:32 <jasonlewis> Clarke: let's get started, agenda. First item is look at Jan's comments
16:08:34 <Zakim> +Eric_Winkelman; got it
16:08:36 <Zakim> +Graham_Clift; got it
16:08:53 <kaz> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Agenda_Telco_8th_December_2011
16:09:15 <jasonlewis> Jan: there is one more change; split one error..is that ok?
16:09:17 <kaz> i/Clarke:/topic: Comments on Jan's proposal/
16:09:32 <R_Berkoff> R_Berkoff has joined #webtv
16:10:07 <jasonlewis> Clark: Discuss Separating Auth errors from other
16:10:43 <kaz> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2011Dec/0008.html Jan's write-up
16:10:57 <jasonlewis> Mark: finishing off proposal, work on messaging and will post on wiki in next couple days
16:11:15 <jasonlewis> Clarke: next item is from Jan on OIPF
16:11:47 <jasonlewis> Jan: There are 3 documents that are referenced...
16:12:20 <jasonlewis> Jan: 1 - document about architecture
16:12:30 <kaz> i/Clarke:/topic: OPIF input/
16:12:57 <jasonlewis> Jan: they use Marlin ...
16:12:58 <kaz> i/let's get started/scribenick: jasonlewis/
16:13:08 <franck> s /OPIF/OIPF
16:14:14 <jasonlewis> Clarke:  I've put up pages on Adaptive bitrate
16:14:17 <ph> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/ADR_Error_Codes
16:14:33 <ph> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Content_Protection_Error_Codes
16:15:02 <jasonlewis> ??:  What is the IP around using OIPF?
16:15:10 <kaz> s/??/mav
16:15:35 <jasonlewis> Mav:What is the IP around using OIPF?
16:15:37 <kaz> zakim, who is noisy?
16:15:47 <Zakim> kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 15 (21%), Clarke (16%), Mark_Vickers (2%)
16:15:56 <ph> q+
16:16:03 <jasonlewis> Jan: there is precedence with a license
16:16:06 <kaz> q?
16:16:24 <ph> ack me
16:16:28 <jasonlewis> Clarke: what is procedure/process for refrencing outside documents?
16:16:46 <kaz> ack ph
16:17:10 <jasonlewis> Philipp: We should use the document?  
16:17:33 <jasonlewis> ??: no, we should use ideas and incorporate them...
16:17:59 <kaz> s/??/mav/
16:18:32 <jasonlewis> mav: no, we should use ideas and incorporate them...
16:18:40 <glenn> q+
16:19:22 <jasonlewis> ??: We need to be sure we're interested enough to use doc/ideas
16:19:34 <kaz> s/??/ph/
16:20:04 <jasonlewis> Clarke:  some preliminary investigation would be good
16:20:08 <Clarke> action: phillip to look at IP issues with referencing OIPF documents
16:20:08 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - phillip
16:20:26 <kaz> -> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#def-essential-exclusions W3C Patent Policy
16:20:55 <jasonlewis> glen: why did we wish to incorporate ideas, instead of reference sections in OIPF?
16:20:56 <glenn> q-
16:21:09 <kaz> action: hoschka to lok at IP issues with referencing OIPF documents
16:21:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Lok at IP issues with referencing OIPF documents [on Philipp Hoschka - due 2011-12-15].
16:21:35 <Clarke> s/phillip/ph
16:21:56 <kaz> q+
16:21:58 <jasonlewis> phillip: There is a precedence with OMA 
16:22:09 <franck> s/Lok/Look
16:22:21 <kaz> s/glen:/glenn:/
16:22:29 <kaz> q?
16:22:43 <ph> s/phillip/jan/
16:22:55 <kaz> zakim, who is speaking?
16:23:05 <Zakim> kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Russell (25%), Clarke (5%)
16:23:13 <jasonlewis> ??: section on patent policy that are referenced
16:23:35 <kaz> s/??/juhani/
16:24:09 <jasonlewis> Clark:  Juhani work with Jan to get guidance and clarify what will be included
16:24:17 <kaz> kaz: so we should clarify what we want to refer to/include
16:24:57 <glenn> glenn: notes that section 8.2 of PP allows exclusion of claims based on "mere incorporation by reference"
16:25:11 <jasonlewis> Clarke:  next agenda item, WHATWG...around adaptive bitrate proposal
16:25:20 <kaz> action: huttunen to work with Jan to get guidance and clarify what will be included
16:25:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Work with Jan to get guidance and clarify what will be included [on Juhani Huttunen - due 2011-12-15].
16:25:41 <Clarke> Adaptive delivery page: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/ADR_Error_Codes
16:25:42 <jasonlewis> Clarke:also created page to summarize this
16:26:08 <Juhani> "Juhani work with Jan to get guidance and clarify what will be included" - I think this is someone else than Juhani this action was appointed to ... 
16:26:32 <kaz> i/Adaptive delivery/topic: Adaptive delivery/
16:26:47 <jasonlewis> Duncan: don't read too much into the source
16:27:18 <ph> page should probably link to source in whatwg
16:28:17 <jasonlewis> Clarke: organized into sections around params, error codes, feedback, new apis
16:28:53 <jasonlewis> Duncan: would be useful to have 'bytesReceived' under feedback
16:29:04 <jasonlewis> q+
16:29:31 <jasonlewis> Duncan: bytes received is more explicit
16:30:40 <jasonlewis> Clarke:  lets look at items.. parameter, maxLevel, it is the bitrate level
16:31:15 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:31:51 <jasonlewis> Duncan: This proposal is moving towards remote control approach that JS can influence bitrate selection
16:32:45 <jasonlewis> Duncan: need lots of data and feedback in JS to enable heuristics to make good decisions for bitrate selection
16:33:05 <kaz> s/Duncan:/MarkW:/
16:33:07 <Zakim> -Jason_Lewis
16:34:18 <jasonlewis> Duncan: added seconds on next segment to help logic
16:34:30 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
16:34:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bob_Lund, Kazuyuki, glenn, Mark_Watson, Jan_Lindquist, Clarke, Duncan, Franck, Russell, Philipp, Juhani, Mark_Vickers, Eric_Winkelman, Graham_Clift, [Microsoft]
16:34:31 <ph> link to original whatwg page?
16:34:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see Graham, eric, franck, mav, Juhani, ph, duncanr, jasonlewis, mark, Clarke, RRSAgent, Zakim, kaz, Bob, glenn, masao, trackbot
16:34:40 <kaz> q+
16:35:20 <jasonlewis> MarkW: it's unclear that we have enough information and details in proposal
16:36:12 <jasonlewis> Clarke: we should discuss the 3 architectures/modes
16:37:46 <jasonlewis> MarkW: concern over mode three about sending video data through JS 
16:37:57 <Zakim> +Jason_Lewis
16:38:14 <Clarke> q?
16:38:29 <ph> whatwg source seems to be http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Adaptive_Streaming
16:38:51 <R_Berkoff> R_Berkoff has joined #webtv
16:38:57 <jasonlewis> MarkW:  the google approach does use AJAX to retrieve data
16:39:37 <jasonlewis> Bob: there is same issue that useragent needs to expose metrics regardless
16:40:47 <jasonlewis> MarkW: approach 3 is easier, but approach 2 the useragent is aware of bitrates and manifests
16:41:34 <jasonlewis> mav: video append would be useful for smooth playlists or inserting ads
16:41:36 <ph> +1 on mav
16:42:02 <mark> +q
16:42:21 <jasonlewis> kaz: we should include the original resource of WHATWG working group?
16:42:44 <mav> Sorry if I jumped the queue.
16:42:59 <duncanr> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_Metrics
16:43:51 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
16:43:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bob_Lund, Kazuyuki, glenn, Mark_Watson, Jan_Lindquist, Clarke, Duncan, Franck, Russell, Philipp, Juhani, Mark_Vickers, Eric_Winkelman, Graham_Clift, [Microsoft],
16:43:54 <Zakim> ... Jason_Lewis
16:43:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see R_Berkoff, Graham, eric, franck, mav, Juhani, ph, duncanr, jasonlewis, mark, Clarke, RRSAgent, Zakim, kaz, Bob, glenn, masao, trackbot
16:44:58 <kaz> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Adaptive_Streaming
16:46:26 <jasonlewis> jason: is the 'currentSegmentDownload' a best guess of seconds based percentage? or real seconds?
16:46:41 <jasonlewis> Duncan: best guess based on average bitrate
16:47:02 <kaz> topic: Schedule
16:47:32 <jasonlewis> Clarke: deadline of Dec 15 for HTML5
16:48:09 <jasonlewis> Clarke: we should work offline to get our proposal tight and use wikipage to send recommendations
16:48:52 <jasonlewis> MarkW: unlikely that timeframe is possible
16:49:16 <jasonlewis> MarkW: benefit of approach 3 is enable experimentation....
16:49:55 <jasonlewis> MarkW: only add details to approach 1 to just report bitrate selected 
16:52:10 <jasonlewis> Clarke:  we could get everything into html5, or try to influence implementations that drive back to standards
16:52:49 <Clarke> q?
16:53:07 <jasonlewis> Duncan: setting the level valuable, and querying the available levels
16:53:14 <kaz> q-
16:53:20 <kaz> q- jasonlewis
16:54:53 <kaz> zakim, Microsoft is Kilroy_Hughes
16:54:53 <Zakim> +Kilroy_Hughes; got it
16:55:12 <jasonlewis> ??:  there need to be ability to set max bitrate ceiling, but beyond that requires more event feedback to enable heuristics
16:55:46 <kaz> s/??:/Kilroy:/
16:57:08 <jasonlewis> microsoft: at early state of adaptive streaming, enabling apporach 3 (all in JS) gives advantages
16:57:09 <mark> q-
16:57:22 <kaz> s/microsoft:/Kilroy:/
16:58:27 <jasonlewis> MarkW: unlikely HTML5 group may accept
17:00:28 <ph> proposed resolution: go for option 1
17:00:35 <mav> Kilroy: Do you think option 3, as you described, can be proposed by 12/15?
17:00:48 <Zakim> -glenn
17:01:52 <jasonlewis> MarkW: timing of socializing this is issue 
17:02:33 <mav> Yes
17:03:09 <Zakim> -Jan_Lindquist
17:04:29 <mav> What exactly has to be complete by 12/15? Does the proposal need to be finalized? Socialized?
17:04:59 <Zakim> -Graham_Clift
17:05:10 <Zakim> -Bob_Lund
17:05:29 <Zakim> -Clarke
17:05:30 <Zakim> -Juhani
17:05:30 <Zakim> -Duncan
17:05:32 <Zakim> -Franck
17:05:33 <kaz> mav and Clarke, maybe we should check with Paul Cottton as well
17:05:33 <Zakim> -Mark_Watson
17:05:35 <Zakim> -Russell
17:05:35 <Zakim> -Jason_Lewis
17:05:36 <Zakim> -Kilroy_Hughes
17:05:38 <kaz> [ adjourned ]
17:05:40 <Zakim> -Eric_Winkelman
17:05:42 <Zakim> -Philipp
17:05:46 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
17:05:51 <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
17:05:54 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM has ended
17:05:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Kazuyuki, Bob_Lund, glenn, Mark_Watson, Jan_Lindquist, Clarke, Duncan, +1.360.367.aaaa, Franck, Philipp, Russell, Juhani, Mark_Vickers, +1.858.942.aabb, Jason_Lewis,
17:05:59 <Zakim> ... Eric_Winkelman, Graham_Clift, Kilroy_Hughes
17:06:07 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
17:06:12 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-webtv-minutes.html kaz
17:14:07 <kaz> Meeting: Media Pipeline telephone conference
17:14:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:14:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-webtv-minutes.html kaz
18:18:22 <duncanr> duncanr has left #webtv
19:06:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webtv