14:59:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcg
14:59:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/02-hcg-irc
14:59:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
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14:59:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
14:59:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_CG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
14:59:18 <trackbot> Date: 02 December 2011
14:59:25 <ddahl1> zakim, code?
14:59:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 4824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ddahl1
14:59:29 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has now started
14:59:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:57 <Zakim> +Debbie_Dahl
14:59:58 <marc> zakim, [IPcaller] is Marc_Schroeder
14:59:58 <Zakim> +Marc_Schroeder; got it
15:00:23 <ddahl1> zakim, who is here?
15:00:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Marc_Schroeder, Debbie_Dahl
15:00:32 <kaz> kaz has joined #hcg
15:00:39 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
15:00:39 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
15:00:41 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
15:02:34 <Zakim> +Bert
15:02:35 <Bert> Bert has joined #hcg
15:03:29 <janina> janina has joined #hcg
15:03:45 <Zakim> +??P17
15:03:52 <janina> zakim, ??P17 is Janina
15:03:52 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:06:31 <ddahl1> chair: Debbie
15:06:38 <ddahl1> scribe:ddahl1
15:06:46 <ddahl1> topic: actions
15:07:11 <ddahl1> action-70?
15:07:12 <trackbot> ACTION-70 -- Chris Lilley to take the web on tv need for certification to w3m -- due 2011-11-25 -- OPEN
15:07:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/70
15:07:25 <plh> plh has joined #hcg
15:07:37 <Zakim> +Plh
15:07:39 <ddahl1> debbie: Chris isn't here to update, so we can wait on that
15:08:03 <ddahl1> action-71?
15:08:03 <trackbot> ACTION-71 -- Deborah Dahl to organise HCG discussion of media handling once group is public -- due 2012-01-06 -- OPEN
15:08:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/71
15:08:13 <ddahl1> action-72?
15:08:13 <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Deborah Dahl to organise a discovery session after hcg is public -- due 2012-01-06 -- OPEN
15:08:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/72
15:09:22 <ddahl1> topic: EmotionML
15:10:20 <ddahl1> philippe: there are a wide range of solutions, most draconian approach is everything is in a Recommendation, more lightweight is a public wiki, there are solutions in between.
15:10:47 <ddahl1> ...depending on how much process you want, XPointer is an example of a lightweight process
15:10:58 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:11:24 <ddahl1> ...to register you need a pointer to a specification
15:12:00 <ddahl1> ...the less resources you have the more lightweight the process
15:13:45 <ddahl1> marc: requirements are that we need vocabularies of emotions. ideally we would make them part of the the specification, but there is no agreement
15:14:06 <ddahl1> ...we wanted to give people a choice among well-defined vocabularies
15:14:29 <ddahl1> ...we have an XML format for describing vocabularies
15:15:52 <ddahl1> ...we want to group a selection of vocabularies in a central place, but people are free to point to outside vocabularies. 
15:16:05 <ddahl1> plh: that makes sense
15:16:38 <ddahl1> marc: we want to maintain snippets of XML, because the atomic entity in our registry is the vocabulary.
15:17:13 <ddahl1> ...we have looked at a number of options, IANA was very tedious, not a lightweight solution.
15:17:27 <ddahl1> ...can we put an XML representation in a wiki?
15:17:46 <ddahl1> plh: you can put pointers to the XML file
15:17:56 <ddahl1> marc: we would also like to have control
15:18:16 <ddahl1> plh: if the wiki is public you don't have control
15:18:56 <ddahl1> ...in HTML5 the wiki can have a status, that is when the WG approves or not.
15:19:32 <ddahl1> marc: we've decided to take the human description and put it in a document.
15:20:20 <ddahl1> ...we originally tried to create a Note, but there was an objection, so we created a WD, but with no expectation that it would become a Recommendation
15:20:44 <ddahl1> ...we need a lightweight process for an irregularly updated item,
15:20:57 <ddahl1> ...but the Note is supposed to be final
15:21:53 <ddahl1> see the second link in this message: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2011OctDec/0022.html
15:22:57 <ddahl1> kaz: there are so many possible solutions and we want to find the best.
15:24:17 <ddahl1> marc: which of the two seems appropriate?
15:24:18 <shepazu> q+
15:24:38 <ddahl1> plh: who will be in charge of maintaining the Note in five years?
15:25:04 <ddahl1> ...I would suggest going for the wiki or the XPointer registry
15:25:27 <ddahl1> ...should think about this for the long term
15:26:15 <ddahl1> doug: should consider who is the community who is going to be suggesting changes.
15:27:11 <ddahl1> ...if you think there are going to be 20-30 items added over the next five years, then that would point to a registry, if it's less, you probably just need a document.
15:27:49 <ddahl1> marc: probably will be the latter. we just need something that can be updated if necessary.
15:28:04 <ddahl1> plh: the wiki would be the most lightweight.
15:28:27 <ddahl1> marc: we had a wiki in the Emotion XG, but it was totally spammed.
15:28:40 <ddahl1> plh: we got better at that
15:29:07 <ddahl1> doug: can make it writable only by WG or someone with a W3C account
15:29:36 <shepazu> s/who is going to be suggesting changes./who is going to be suggesting changes, whether a small community or a widely diverse and unknown set of people/
15:29:37 <ddahl1> marc: can we add an XML link to the wiki
15:29:52 <shepazu> q+ to ask about EmotionML
15:30:15 <ddahl1> plh: if an XML can't be uploaded we should ask why.
15:30:57 <ddahl1> marc: one issue that confused us was the choice between a dated and an undated URI, in the case of a wiki it would simply be the link
15:31:15 <ddahl1> ...are there other repercussions? a link to a wiki can't be normative
15:31:31 <ddahl1> plh: in HTML5 the wiki is normative
15:31:38 <ddahl1> marc: didn't know that
15:32:07 <ddahl1> plh: look at the definition of the meta-element
15:32:45 <ddahl1> marc: we would move everything from the current WD to the wiki
15:33:21 <ddahl1> ...is it correct that we have control over who has write permission?
15:34:05 <ddahl1> plh: the WG can be in charge, but think about what happens in 5 years
15:34:22 <ddahl1> ...you can lock the page
15:34:52 <ddahl1> marc: the thing to do is to try out the wiki
15:35:23 <shepazu> q-
15:35:42 <ddahl1> kaz: there is no essential difference between a Note and a wiki
15:37:19 <ddahl1> kaz: the definition of the vocabulary set is defined by XML notation, so maybe we should use XPath, not HTML
15:38:10 <ddahl1> marc: we need to be able to point to a permanent XML in the wiki
15:39:21 <ddahl1> marc: other people should be able to point to a full URI, not just an identifier
15:40:34 <ddahl1> ...we can't draw up the ultimate list of vocabularies, so it must always be possible to point outside of the W3C, so that's why we need a URI
15:41:43 <ddahl1> debbie: is the write-restricted wiki the way to go?
15:42:11 <ddahl1> marc: we need to verify that there isn't any way for it to be harmed, and that we can point to XML
15:42:22 <ddahl1> ...but it looks promising
15:43:48 <ddahl1> plh: just try to put XML on a public wiki
15:43:54 <ddahl1> ...to see if that works
15:44:10 <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#other-metadata-names
15:44:19 <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#other-pragma-directives
15:45:02 <ddahl1> plh: these are some examples from HTML5
15:45:50 <ddahl1> ...the wiki themselves document the restrictions
15:46:12 <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#other-link-types
15:46:14 <ddahl1> s/themselves/itself
15:46:54 <ddahl1> marc: it's reassuring that I don't have write permission.
15:50:11 <ddahl1> doug: at TPAC we were talking about the sarcasm element, and we came up with two good use cases for this, e.g. accessibility, and for non-native speakers
15:51:00 <kaz> s/between a Note and a wiki/between a Note and a wiki, so fine to use a wiki/
15:51:36 <ddahl1> ...if there were some way to annotate tones in written speech or visual display, or have some kind of markup, but some people may not understand a tone. that would be a place where a registry might be useful.
15:52:12 <ddahl1> marc: this goes in the same direction that we've been thinking.
15:52:43 <ddahl1> doug: machine could be detecting emotion and outputting HTML
15:53:10 <ddahl1> marc: we had a comment from the accessibility WG, but out of scope for current work
15:53:58 <kaz> s/the definition of the vocabulary set is defined by XML notation, so/the definition of the vocabulary set in the current vocabulary WD is defined by XML notation, but being referenced to using HTML fragment notation. /
15:54:00 <ddahl1> doug: definite use cases for people in different cultures
15:54:45 <ddahl1> marc: do you see how we're starting to come up with a vocabulary, and it's not trivial
15:55:22 <ddahl1> doug: if you had a core set of critical information that you could put into tones, that could get traction.
15:55:42 <ddahl1> marc: that's on the horizon.
15:57:29 <ddahl1> doug: if we had a tone attribute and it represented sarcasm, you could style it as appropriate.
15:59:09 <kaz> q+
16:00:53 <ddahl1> kaz: in SSML 1.0 we tried to extend speech synthesis to various languages, like Chinese or Japanese. EmotionML might need some internationalization variants
16:01:15 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
16:01:17 <Zakim> -Plh
16:01:21 <Zakim> -Bert
16:01:22 <Zakim> -Janina
16:01:23 <janina> janina has left #hcg
16:01:24 <Zakim> -Debbie_Dahl
16:01:28 <kaz> kaz: e.g., text level vs. actual intention :)
16:01:30 <Zakim> -Marc_Schroeder
16:01:34 <ddahl1> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:44 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
16:01:46 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
16:01:46 <ddahl1> rrsagent, format minutes
16:01:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/02-hcg-minutes.html ddahl1
16:01:50 <Zakim> Attendees were Debbie_Dahl, Marc_Schroeder, Kazuyuki, Bert, Janina, Plh, Doug_Schepers
16:02:20 <kaz> s/intention/intention based on the cultures and countries/
16:05:47 <ddahl1> regrets:Steven_Pemberton
16:06:04 <ddahl1> rrsagent, format minutes
16:06:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/02-hcg-minutes.html ddahl1
16:07:15 <plh> plh has left #hcg
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