IRC log of ua on 2011-12-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:26:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc
17:26:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:26:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:26:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
17:26:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:26:45 [trackbot]
Date: 01 December 2011
17:27:28 [JAllan]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
17:28:07 [JAllan]
regrets: Jan, Kelly, Mark
17:41:26 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/
17:41:27 [JAllan]
Agenda+ New survey
17:41:29 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html
17:41:30 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review any proposals sent to list, several to review
17:57:59 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
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WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:47 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:00:06 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
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-Jeanne
18:00:07 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:00:27 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #ua
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+Greg_Lowney
18:02:40 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:03:14 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:03:25 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:03:25 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
18:03:26 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:03:27 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
18:03:28 [Zakim]
1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan]
18:03:30 [Zakim]
3. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan]
18:03:33 [Zakim]
4. Open issues discussion [from JAllan]
18:03:35 [Zakim]
5. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan]
18:03:37 [Zakim]
6. New survey [from JAllan]
18:03:40 [Zakim]
7. Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html [from JAllan]
18:03:43 [Zakim]
8. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan]
18:04:04 [Wayne]
What is the conference code?
18:04:04 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:04:24 [JAllan]
code is 82941#
18:05:31 [Zakim]
+??P41
18:05:49 [sharper]
zakim, ??P41 is sharper
18:05:49 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:05:54 [Zakim]
+Wayne
18:08:43 [JAllan]
Topic: HTML-A11y Task force drag and drop
18:08:45 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Dec/0006.html
18:09:02 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Nov/0155.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Nov/0156.html
18:10:54 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
18:10:54 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
18:13:16 [sharper]
KP: we were talking about modality independent interface
18:13:20 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:14:19 [sharper]
GL: however there are reasons to be specific about the devices for instance we talk about the keyboard because it is efficient
18:14:35 [sharper]
KP: how do you specify that
18:15:23 [Wayne]
q+
18:15:38 [sharper]
ackme
18:15:40 [sharper]
ack me
18:15:48 [sharper]
ack w
18:16:04 [sharper]
WD: do have a best practice or drag-and-drop protocol?
18:16:53 [sharper]
JA: know we've been pretty generic in the document, with just focused on the whole keyboard issue and then trying to make a device independent.
18:17:36 [sharper]
WD: I ask because we talk about consistency of user interface later on
18:17:46 [sharper]
JA: it would be nice if it was inherent in the browser
18:18:20 [sharper]
JA: I know how I'd like it to work in principle
18:19:34 [JAllan]
modality independent interface should cover keyboard and other interfaces
18:19:48 [Greg]
Here's the email I sent proposing possible guideline about non-keyboard input devices: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
18:20:16 [sharper]
JA: will show up at the call to get more information
18:21:15 [sharper]
ALL: Discussion Regarding iPhone drag-and-drop
18:23:45 [sharper]
JA: do we have discovered in our guidelines/should we have discovered in our guidelines?
18:25:26 [Greg]
My email linked to above proposed two new SC with IER:
18:25:28 [Greg]
2.12 Other input devices
18:25:29 [Greg]
2.12.1 Support Platform Text Input Devices: If the platform supports text input using an input device, the user agent is compatible with this functionality. (Level A)
18:25:31 [Greg]
2.12.3 Text Input With Any Device:If an input device is supported by the platform, all user agent functionality including text input can be operated using that device. (Level AAA)
18:26:43 [sharper]
JA: Should we include these in the document
18:31:11 [sharper]
JA: any objection to including these in the document
18:31:39 [sharper]
JS: should go ahead with this but we need to look to make sure we're not contradicting ourselves
18:34:50 [sharper]
Action: jeanne to add 2.12.1.2.3
18:34:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-668 - Add 2.12.1.2.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08].
18:35:04 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
18:38:39 [Greg]
So to summarize our answer on drag and drop, UAAG20 requires drag and drop to be doable via the keyboard per 2.1.1 (Level A) and by all other input devices per 2.12.2 (Level AA).
18:39:00 [Greg]
s/keyboard/keyboard or keyboard emulator/
18:40:00 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:40:00 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
18:40:02 [Zakim]
1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan]
18:40:04 [Zakim]
3. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan]
18:40:07 [Zakim]
4. Open issues discussion [from JAllan]
18:40:08 [Zakim]
5. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan]
18:40:11 [Zakim]
6. New survey [from JAllan]
18:40:12 [Zakim]
7. Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html [from JAllan]
18:40:15 [Zakim]
8. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan]
18:40:26 [JAllan]
zakim, drop item 1
18:40:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/, dropped
18:40:39 [JAllan]
zakim, drop item 2
18:40:39 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html, dropped
18:40:49 [JAllan]
zakim, drop item 3
18:40:49 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Review any proposals sent to list, several to review, dropped
18:41:07 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 5
18:41:07 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/" taken up [from JAllan]
18:41:45 [JAllan]
take up from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq5
18:45:17 [sharper]
JA: likes GL's suggestion - lets work from these two
18:45:55 [sharper]
JA: if we include hidden content we have to define what hidden content is
18:47:42 [sharper]
GL: I'd rather leave out hidden content
18:47:58 [sharper]
GL: you need to define what it hidden means
18:48:11 [Greg]
Discussing the whether "hidden" means something with an attribute that prevents it from having any visual representation, or whether it's something that has a visual representation but is currently outside the visible area of its viewport.
18:48:33 [sharper]
KP: so it can't be hidden if it is outside viewpoint because she wanted that show up in the search
18:49:15 [JAllan]
css 'visibility: hidden'
18:49:23 [sharper]
GL: search should not find things that have a hidden or invisible attribute
18:49:33 [sharper]
GL: but they should find things outside of the viewport
18:49:43 [sharper]
WD: what if text is invisible based on styling
18:50:27 [sharper]
KP: I would argue in those cases that they are not hidden and So search should find them
18:50:34 [JAllan]
css 'display: none'
18:51:03 [Greg]
Search should not find things that have a "hidden" or "invisible" attribute (including size of 0), but they should *generally* find things that are scrolled outside the visible area of a viewport, BUT there are a few cases where we would not want it to find those, such as the common web programming method where a large image with several buttons is repositioned so only the one button that is...
18:51:05 [Greg]
...supposed to be available at a time is visible.
18:51:42 [sharper]
JA: if it's in the Dom you should be able to find it, if it isn't in the Dom shouldn't
18:52:27 [sharper]
GL: Yes, WD: Yes
18:52:37 [Greg]
The difference between my two latter examples are that in the former case there is UI that lets the user get to them, whereas in the latter case there is not, only the user agent can decide to make it available again.
18:53:53 [sharper]
JA: any objection for us to operate off of GLs recommendations, then we decide...
18:54:10 [sharper]
Non response - signifies agreement of the group
18:55:19 [JAllan]
action: jim to write definition of 'hidden content' - outside viewport, heighth width 0, same color as background
19:00:15 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:00:45 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #ua
19:01:28 [sharper]
jA: leaving up to the user agent to decide how it will display the stuff is a great way to go
19:01:47 [sharper]
JA: seems like we should be using Greg's first alternative for our first recommendation
19:03:07 [sharper]
+1
19:03:46 [Greg]
I think search should find things that are situationally hidden (e.g. having a screen presence but currently outside the visible area of the viewport or behind another window) but not thing that are marked with an attribute designed to prevent them from having any screen presence (e.g. display:none).
19:04:17 [sharper]
JA: any objections to putting this new warning as Greg wrote it
19:04:55 [sharper]
Action: jeanne to add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set.
19:04:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-670 - Add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08].
19:05:37 [Greg]
I don't think any software today fails to search content that has been scrolled outside the visible portion of the viewport.
19:06:01 [Greg]
Therefore I don't think we need to explicitly mention "hidden" if we just mean things scrolled out of view.
19:06:11 [sharper]
KP: comes up with an example from Dragon
19:06:20 [JAllan]
action: jim to create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list
19:06:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-671 - Create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list [on Jim Allan - due 2011-12-08].
19:06:23 [Greg]
I'm concerned that a lot of people like me will (if they don't read the glossary entry) interpret "hidden" as display:none and the like.
19:06:56 [Greg]
Therefore I recommend my second wording ("hidden content" taken out) rather than the first.
19:07:16 [sharper]
Topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6
19:07:30 [sharper]
s/Topic/topic
19:09:00 [sharper]
6 sets of comments
19:09:33 [sharper]
GL: assign someone to read through all those comments and come up with an answer to them
19:10:45 [sharper]
Action: Wayne to take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6
19:10:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-672 - Take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [on Wayne Dick - due 2011-12-08].
19:11:05 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Action on Wayne Dick
19:11:21 [sharper]
topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq7
19:11:28 [JAllan]
topic: 2.5.5 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation
19:11:43 [sharper]
Split even 4 ok / 4 needs work
19:11:49 [sharper]
JA: runs through the comments
19:12:55 [JAllan]
1.11.1 Access Relationships:
19:12:57 [JAllan]
The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A) :
19:13:21 [JAllan]
jans 253 The user can view the path of nodes leading from the root to the current focussed element.
19:14:56 [sharper]
JA: suggestions
19:15:28 [sharper]
GL: is jans rewrite of 253 an appropriate rewrite?
19:16:26 [sharper]
Action: Wayne on include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3
19:16:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-673 - On include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [on Wayne Dick - due 2011-12-08].
19:16:41 [sharper]
RESOLVED: See action above
19:16:59 [JAllan]
topic: 2.5.7 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation
19:16:59 [sharper]
topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq8
19:17:06 [sharper]
6 OKs and 2 more discussions
19:17:11 [sharper]
JA: reviews comments
19:20:04 [sharper]
JA: I think I agree with Markku, at least a AA
19:21:45 [sharper]
GL: our differentiate structured navigation and outline view, where structured navigation are commands to move from heading to heading. many offer a hierarchical outline view, not many offer a structured navigation
19:22:21 [sharper]
GL: in this case I think such navigation should have a higher priority
19:22:25 [Greg]
Correct summary, but specifically I'm referring to "navigable" outline view.
19:24:39 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
19:28:22 [sharper]
JA: remove independently and make a AA?
19:29:10 [JAllan]
proposed: The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA
19:29:18 [sharper]
JA: need to find a navigational thing in the intent
19:29:43 [sharper]
JA: lets leaving together as opposed to come up with to separate SCs
19:29:49 [sharper]
s/to/two
19:30:43 [Greg]
The rationales for separating them are (a) could potentially allow different priority levels, and (b) could potentially allow configuring of NON-INTERACTIVE outline views to be in the Perceivable principle rather than the Operable principle.
19:31:04 [sharper]
GL: I just wanted to point this out but I'm not opposing combining them
19:31:26 [sharper]
JA: any objections?
19:31:44 [sharper]
<silence>
19:31:50 [sharper]
WD: +1
19:31:53 [sharper]
SH +1
19:32:05 [JAllan]
+1
19:32:20 [sharper]
Action: on
19:32:20 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
19:33:24 [sharper]
Action: jeanne to change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA
19:33:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-674 - Change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08].
19:33:35 [sharper]
RESOLVED: via Action 674
19:34:01 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:34:08 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:34:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:34:41 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:34:43 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:34:49 [Zakim]
-Wayne
19:34:51 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:34:56 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:35:01 [sharper]
zakim, please part
19:35:01 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, sharper, Wayne
19:35:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:35:07 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:35:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:35:45 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-actions.rdf :
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 2.12.1.2.3 [1]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T18-34-50
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to write definition of 'hidden content' - outside viewport, heighth width 0, same color as background [2]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T18-55-19
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set. [3]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-04-55
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list [4]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-06-20
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Wayne to take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [5]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-10-45
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Wayne on include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [6]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-16-26
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: on [7]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-32-20
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [8]
19:35:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-33-24