17:26:40 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:26:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc 17:26:42 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:26:44 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:26:44 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes 17:26:45 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:26:45 Date: 01 December 2011 17:27:28 chair: JimAllan, KellyFord 17:28:07 regrets: Jan, Kelly, Mark 17:41:26 Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ 17:41:27 Agenda+ New survey 17:41:29 Agenda+ Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html 17:41:30 Agenda+ Review any proposals sent to list, several to review 17:57:59 Greg has joined #ua 17:59:46 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:59:47 +Jim_Allan 18:00:06 +Jeanne 18:00:07 -Jeanne 18:00:07 +Jeanne 18:00:27 Wayne has joined #ua 18:01:12 +Greg_Lowney 18:02:40 KimPatch has joined #ua 18:03:14 sharper has joined #ua 18:03:25 zakim, code? 18:03:25 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper 18:03:26 zakim, agenda? 18:03:27 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 18:03:28 1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan] 18:03:30 3. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan] 18:03:33 4. Open issues discussion [from JAllan] 18:03:35 5. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan] 18:03:37 6. New survey [from JAllan] 18:03:40 7. Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html [from JAllan] 18:03:43 8. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan] 18:04:04 What is the conference code? 18:04:04 +Kim_Patch 18:04:24 code is 82941# 18:05:31 +??P41 18:05:49 zakim, ??P41 is sharper 18:05:49 +sharper; got it 18:05:54 +Wayne 18:08:43 Topic: HTML-A11y Task force drag and drop 18:08:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Dec/0006.html 18:09:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Nov/0155.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Nov/0156.html 18:10:54 scribe: Harper_Simon 18:10:54 ScribeNick: sharper 18:13:16 KP: we were talking about modality independent interface 18:13:20 jeanne has joined #ua 18:14:19 GL: however there are reasons to be specific about the devices for instance we talk about the keyboard because it is efficient 18:14:35 KP: how do you specify that 18:15:23 q+ 18:15:38 ackme 18:15:40 ack me 18:15:48 ack w 18:16:04 WD: do have a best practice or drag-and-drop protocol? 18:16:53 JA: know we've been pretty generic in the document, with just focused on the whole keyboard issue and then trying to make a device independent. 18:17:36 WD: I ask because we talk about consistency of user interface later on 18:17:46 JA: it would be nice if it was inherent in the browser 18:18:20 JA: I know how I'd like it to work in principle 18:19:34 modality independent interface should cover keyboard and other interfaces 18:19:48 Here's the email I sent proposing possible guideline about non-keyboard input devices: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html 18:20:16 JA: will show up at the call to get more information 18:21:15 ALL: Discussion Regarding iPhone drag-and-drop 18:23:45 JA: do we have discovered in our guidelines/should we have discovered in our guidelines? 18:25:26 My email linked to above proposed two new SC with IER: 18:25:28 2.12 Other input devices 18:25:29 2.12.1 Support Platform Text Input Devices: If the platform supports text input using an input device, the user agent is compatible with this functionality. (Level A) 18:25:31 2.12.3 Text Input With Any Device:If an input device is supported by the platform, all user agent functionality including text input can be operated using that device. (Level AAA) 18:26:43 JA: Should we include these in the document 18:31:11 JA: any objection to including these in the document 18:31:39 JS: should go ahead with this but we need to look to make sure we're not contradicting ourselves 18:34:50 Action: jeanne to add 2.12.1.2.3 18:34:50 Created ACTION-668 - Add 2.12.1.2.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08]. 18:35:04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html 18:38:39 So to summarize our answer on drag and drop, UAAG20 requires drag and drop to be doable via the keyboard per 2.1.1 (Level A) and by all other input devices per 2.12.2 (Level AA). 18:39:00 s/keyboard/keyboard or keyboard emulator/ 18:40:00 zakim, agenda? 18:40:00 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 18:40:02 1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan] 18:40:04 3. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan] 18:40:07 4. Open issues discussion [from JAllan] 18:40:08 5. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan] 18:40:11 6. New survey [from JAllan] 18:40:12 7. Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html [from JAllan] 18:40:15 8. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan] 18:40:26 zakim, drop item 1 18:40:26 agendum 1, Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/, dropped 18:40:39 zakim, drop item 2 18:40:39 agendum 2, Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html, dropped 18:40:49 zakim, drop item 3 18:40:49 agendum 3, Review any proposals sent to list, several to review, dropped 18:41:07 zakim, open item 5 18:41:07 agendum 5. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/" taken up [from JAllan] 18:41:45 take up from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq5 18:45:17 JA: likes GL's suggestion - lets work from these two 18:45:55 JA: if we include hidden content we have to define what hidden content is 18:47:42 GL: I'd rather leave out hidden content 18:47:58 GL: you need to define what it hidden means 18:48:11 Discussing the whether "hidden" means something with an attribute that prevents it from having any visual representation, or whether it's something that has a visual representation but is currently outside the visible area of its viewport. 18:48:33 KP: so it can't be hidden if it is outside viewpoint because she wanted that show up in the search 18:49:15 css 'visibility: hidden' 18:49:23 GL: search should not find things that have a hidden or invisible attribute 18:49:33 GL: but they should find things outside of the viewport 18:49:43 WD: what if text is invisible based on styling 18:50:27 KP: I would argue in those cases that they are not hidden and So search should find them 18:50:34 css 'display: none' 18:51:03 Search should not find things that have a "hidden" or "invisible" attribute (including size of 0), but they should *generally* find things that are scrolled outside the visible area of a viewport, BUT there are a few cases where we would not want it to find those, such as the common web programming method where a large image with several buttons is repositioned so only the one button that is... 18:51:05 ...supposed to be available at a time is visible. 18:51:42 JA: if it's in the Dom you should be able to find it, if it isn't in the Dom shouldn't 18:52:27 GL: Yes, WD: Yes 18:52:37 The difference between my two latter examples are that in the former case there is UI that lets the user get to them, whereas in the latter case there is not, only the user agent can decide to make it available again. 18:53:53 JA: any objection for us to operate off of GLs recommendations, then we decide... 18:54:10 Non response - signifies agreement of the group 18:55:19 action: jim to write definition of 'hidden content' - outside viewport, heighth width 0, same color as background 19:00:15 rrsagent, make minutes 19:00:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html JAllan 19:00:45 trackbot has joined #ua 19:01:28 jA: leaving up to the user agent to decide how it will display the stuff is a great way to go 19:01:47 JA: seems like we should be using Greg's first alternative for our first recommendation 19:03:07 +1 19:03:46 I think search should find things that are situationally hidden (e.g. having a screen presence but currently outside the visible area of the viewport or behind another window) but not thing that are marked with an attribute designed to prevent them from having any screen presence (e.g. display:none). 19:04:17 JA: any objections to putting this new warning as Greg wrote it 19:04:55 Action: jeanne to add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set. 19:04:55 Created ACTION-670 - Add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08]. 19:05:37 I don't think any software today fails to search content that has been scrolled outside the visible portion of the viewport. 19:06:01 Therefore I don't think we need to explicitly mention "hidden" if we just mean things scrolled out of view. 19:06:11 KP: comes up with an example from Dragon 19:06:20 action: jim to create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list 19:06:20 Created ACTION-671 - Create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list [on Jim Allan - due 2011-12-08]. 19:06:23 I'm concerned that a lot of people like me will (if they don't read the glossary entry) interpret "hidden" as display:none and the like. 19:06:56 Therefore I recommend my second wording ("hidden content" taken out) rather than the first. 19:07:16 Topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 19:07:30 s/Topic/topic 19:09:00 6 sets of comments 19:09:33 GL: assign someone to read through all those comments and come up with an answer to them 19:10:45 Action: Wayne to take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 19:10:45 Created ACTION-672 - Take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [on Wayne Dick - due 2011-12-08]. 19:11:05 RESOLVED: Action on Wayne Dick 19:11:21 topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq7 19:11:28 topic: 2.5.5 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation 19:11:43 Split even 4 ok / 4 needs work 19:11:49 JA: runs through the comments 19:12:55 1.11.1 Access Relationships: 19:12:57 The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A) : 19:13:21 jans 253 The user can view the path of nodes leading from the root to the current focussed element. 19:14:56 JA: suggestions 19:15:28 GL: is jans rewrite of 253 an appropriate rewrite? 19:16:26 Action: Wayne on include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 19:16:26 Created ACTION-673 - On include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [on Wayne Dick - due 2011-12-08]. 19:16:41 RESOLVED: See action above 19:16:59 topic: 2.5.7 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation 19:16:59 topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq8 19:17:06 6 OKs and 2 more discussions 19:17:11 JA: reviews comments 19:20:04 JA: I think I agree with Markku, at least a AA 19:21:45 GL: our differentiate structured navigation and outline view, where structured navigation are commands to move from heading to heading. many offer a hierarchical outline view, not many offer a structured navigation 19:22:21 GL: in this case I think such navigation should have a higher priority 19:22:25 Correct summary, but specifically I'm referring to "navigable" outline view. 19:24:39 jeanne has joined #ua 19:28:22 JA: remove independently and make a AA? 19:29:10 proposed: The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA 19:29:18 JA: need to find a navigational thing in the intent 19:29:43 JA: lets leaving together as opposed to come up with to separate SCs 19:29:49 s/to/two 19:30:43 The rationales for separating them are (a) could potentially allow different priority levels, and (b) could potentially allow configuring of NON-INTERACTIVE outline views to be in the Perceivable principle rather than the Operable principle. 19:31:04 GL: I just wanted to point this out but I'm not opposing combining them 19:31:26 JA: any objections? 19:31:44 19:31:50 WD: +1 19:31:53 SH +1 19:32:05 +1 19:32:20 Action: on 19:32:20 Sorry, bad ACTION syntax 19:33:24 Action: jeanne to change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA 19:33:25 Created ACTION-674 - Change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08]. 19:33:35 RESOLVED: via Action 674 19:34:01 rrsagent, make logs public 19:34:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:34:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html sharper 19:34:41 -Kim_Patch 19:34:43 -sharper 19:34:49 -Wayne 19:34:51 -Greg_Lowney 19:34:56 -Jim_Allan 19:35:01 zakim, please part 19:35:01 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, sharper, Wayne 19:35:01 Zakim has left #ua 19:35:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:35:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html sharper 19:35:45 rrsagent, please part 19:35:45 I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-actions.rdf : 19:35:45 ACTION: jeanne to add 2.12.1.2.3 [1] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T18-34-50 19:35:45 ACTION: jim to write definition of 'hidden content' - outside viewport, heighth width 0, same color as background [2] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T18-55-19 19:35:45 ACTION: jeanne to add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set. [3] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-04-55 19:35:45 ACTION: jim to create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list [4] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-06-20 19:35:45 ACTION: Wayne to take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [5] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-10-45 19:35:45 ACTION: Wayne on include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [6] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-16-26 19:35:45 ACTION: on [7] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-32-20 19:35:45 ACTION: jeanne to change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [8] 19:35:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc#T19-33-24