20:00:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:00:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-svg-irc
20:00:45 <ericm_> ericm_ has joined #svg
20:00:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:00:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
20:00:49 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:49 <trackbot> Date: 01 December 2011
20:01:53 <ed> Zakim, room for 8?
20:01:56 <Zakim> ok, ed; conference Team_(svg)20:01Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 60 minutes until 2101Z
20:02:51 <Zakim> Team_(svg)20:01Z has now started
20:02:57 <Zakim> +??P2
20:03:00 <heycam> Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:03:03 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:03:07 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:03:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see heycam
20:03:14 <Zakim> + +1.408.543.aaaa
20:04:03 <Zakim> +Tav
20:04:04 <cyril> "the conference is restricted at this time"
20:04:12 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:04:51 <Zakim> +cyril
20:08:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:08:39 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:08:39 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:08:52 <shepazu> zakim, who's noisy?
20:09:04 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (53%), Tav (9%), cyril (4%)
20:10:26 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0096.html
20:11:56 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:11:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see heycam, +1.408.543.aaaa, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cyril, ed
20:12:05 <heycam> Zakim, +1 is ericm
20:12:05 <Zakim> +ericm; got it
20:12:58 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:12:58 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cyril
20:13:17 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
20:13:23 <cyril> scribeNick:Cyril
20:13:28 <cyril> Topic: F2F
20:13:54 <cyril> doug: would it be better to meet in California with the other WG ?
20:14:15 <cyril> ... there is a possibility that either Chris or I could attend the F2F
20:14:45 <cyril> ... there was a proposal by the WebApps chairs that the joint sessions in TPAC where useful but not sufficient
20:14:57 <cyril> ... we thought that a mini tpac would be valuable
20:15:07 <cyril> ... WebApps, DAP, SVG , CSS
20:15:14 <cyril> ... maye WebEvents
20:15:35 <cyril> ... the proposal is that it happens in California because of the people in California
20:15:43 <cyril> CC: when ?
20:15:54 <cyril> s/CC:/cyril:/
20:16:06 <cyril> ed: march was the proposed date
20:16:36 <cyril> ... it could be earlier because if we decide to skip the January F2F it would be too close to may
20:16:56 <heycam> yeah, having SVG meet in january, march and may just seemed a little too much
20:16:57 <cyril> doug: heycam has mentionned that having both would be problematic
20:17:16 <cyril> cyril: budget-wise ?
20:17:24 <cyril> heycam: also time-wise
20:18:01 <cyril> doug: there is also the matter of it being problematic to have so many meetings for W3C folks
20:18:04 <Zakim> -heycam
20:18:08 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:18:27 <Zakim> +??P2
20:18:29 <heycam> Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:18:29 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:19:13 <ChrisL> zakim, code?
20:19:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ChrisL
20:19:24 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:19:53 <cyril> cyril: meeting with other groups is good, but it wont' make us progress on SVG 2
20:20:21 <cyril> doug: colocating doesn't mean having all meetings together
20:20:42 <cyril> ... things like Component Model is something that we can't do by ourselves
20:21:29 <cyril> doug: it's cheaper for me to go to California
20:21:41 <cyril> chris: same plus cheaper/shorter for me 
20:23:39 <TabAtkins> fwiw, I have no preference on meeting locations.  They're all the same for me.
20:25:30 <cyril> doug: I suggest that we go ahead and have the Sydney F2F and that we propose to have a mini-tpac later in the year
20:25:51 <cyril> ... and that each group works towards milestones for the mini-tpac to be more efficient
20:26:04 <ChrisL> sounds like a request for a well-in-advance agenda
20:26:10 <cyril> ... for instance the Component model needs to be flushed-out to be more useful for SVG
20:26:50 <cyril> cyril: and documents submitted in advance
20:27:34 <cyril> doug: I don't want to substitute California with Bucharest
20:27:57 <cyril> chris: me neither because of Libre Graphics and the AC meeting
20:28:29 <cyril> ... all meetings are back to back
20:28:33 <TabAtkins> Note that the CSSWG is also meeting in San Diego later in the year, if you want another colocation that's not Bucharest.
20:28:38 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#F2F_Meeting_Information
20:28:40 <cyril> ed: I updated the wiki with this
20:28:44 <ChrisL> lgm weds 2-sat 5
20:29:10 <ChrisL> css and svg sun 6 - sat qw
20:29:31 <ChrisL> ac sun 13-tue 15
20:29:35 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#Upcoming_F2Fs
20:29:37 <cyril> doug: what would you think if I tried to set up an SVG mini event?
20:30:06 <cyril> ... a half day or evening workshop to get people to meet with us
20:30:32 <cyril> chris: I don't know what is the community interested in Bucharest
20:30:43 <cyril> doug: possibly too in Sydney
20:31:33 <cyril> ed: what dates for Sydney 
20:31:38 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2012
20:32:28 <cyril> hecyam: vincent would prefer a 3 day meeting
20:32:34 <cyril> ... monday to friday
20:33:16 <cyril> ... I think 4 days sound like a more reasonnable compromise
20:33:37 <cyril> chris: tuesday to friday
20:33:53 <Zakim> -heycam
20:33:55 <cyril> ed: I'll be travelling on tuesday
20:34:09 <Zakim> +??P2
20:34:11 <heycam> Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:34:11 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:34:24 <cyril> cyril: wednesday to saturday
20:35:11 <cyril> heycam: i have to be in melbourne on monday, I need a bit of time on the weekend to prepare
20:35:39 <ed> s/ed: I'll be travelling on tuesday/ed: I'll (probably) be travelling on tuesday/
20:36:29 <cyril> doug: the event could be also an evening thing
20:36:54 <cyril> heycam: as long as people have prepared before the F2F or they will be distracted
20:38:28 <cyril> erik: the 11th to the 14th ?
20:39:33 <cyril> RESOLUTION: the next F2F will be in Manly, 11-14/01/2012
20:42:54 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback
20:42:54 <cyril> Topic: SVG 2 Requirements
20:43:14 <cyril> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Use_CSS_.27white-space.27_instead_of_.27xml:space.27
20:43:43 <cyril> heycam: what are our plans for publishing ?
20:44:01 <cyril> ... do we want to wait until the list is fully reviewed ?
20:44:16 <cyril> chris: do we publish in the TR space ?
20:44:41 <cyril> ... a wiki is more useful than the TR space but the TR will be looked at by more people
20:45:00 <cyril> doug: the editor's draft could be the wiki page
20:45:29 <cyril> heycam: putting the document in good shape for the TR space will require some work
20:45:39 <cyril> ... is it a useful effort ?
20:45:50 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/2.0/reqs/publish/
20:47:56 <heycam> a second pass doing prioritisation sounds like a good idea to me
20:47:57 <cyril> ed: we will need a second pass on the reqs to prioritize
20:48:13 <heycam> I am concerned that making local decisions about including or not will let us end up with a long list of things we've included
20:49:35 <Zakim> -heycam
20:50:15 <heycam> I thought the second pass for prioritisation would be a real time thing, like on a telcon.
20:50:16 <cyril> tav: it'll take weeks to write
20:50:23 <cyril> ed: yes
20:50:23 <heycam> And obviously the prose writing would be something to do offline.
20:50:36 <heycam> So I'm not sure we could do it at the same time.
20:50:55 <Zakim> +??P2
20:50:56 <heycam> Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:50:56 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:50:58 <cyril> doug: I don't think that we need to go into further details in TR than on the wiki
20:51:42 <cyril> chris: people who have looked at the requirements deeply will probably understand but outsiders will need text to understand the reqs (on the wiki or in the RT space)
20:51:54 <cyril> s/RT/RT/
20:51:56 <cyril> s/RT/TR/
20:52:13 <cyril> doug: I like the idea of farming it out
20:52:35 <cyril> cyril: on the wiki first 
20:52:37 <cyril> doug: yes
20:52:40 <cyril> chris: yes
20:53:39 <cyril> heycam: the proposal is that everyone expands on the wiki each requirements with a paragraph
20:54:03 <cyril> chris: what about those that we have rejected
20:54:11 <cyril> tav: it is useful to have it
20:54:25 <cyril> chris: having the rationale is useful
20:56:41 <cyril> chris: I'm suggesting that we update the current wiki page
20:57:29 <cyril> doug: maybe instead of publishing in the TR space, we make a link to the Wiki page
20:58:26 <cyril> ACTION: heycam to copy text from the current reqs document and add placeholders for people to fill in
20:58:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3179 - Copy text from the current reqs document and add placeholders for people to fill in [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-12-08].
20:58:53 <cyril> Topic: white space
20:59:00 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Use_CSS_.27white-space.27_instead_of_.27xml:space.27
20:59:54 <ChrisL> we already decided this
21:00:25 <cyril> doug: authoring tools will be shoving out the old xml thing
21:01:02 <cyril> chris: I noticed the there is an effort in the Inkscape community to clean up the output
21:01:15 <cyril> ... they could remove xml thing
21:02:06 <cyril> RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will deprecate the use of xml:space to affect layout and will use the CSS white-space property
21:02:22 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Allow_.40transform_to_apply_to_.3Ctspan.3E_elements
21:02:34 <cyril> Topic: transforms on tspan elements
21:03:27 <cyril> cyril: it's linked to http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Consider_adding_transform.3D.22.22_to_.3Csvg.3E
21:03:33 <vhardy> vhardy has joined #svg
21:03:47 <cyril> chris: I don't think adding transform on every element makes sense (e.g gradient stop)
21:04:05 <cyril> tav: what happens if you transform a tspan to the next tspan
21:04:21 <cyril> doug: the next tspan wouldn't be affected
21:04:27 <Zakim> -Tav
21:04:30 <cyril> chris: unlike dx and dy, 
21:04:43 <cyril> ... we should be careful about making the difference clear
21:05:13 <cyril> doug: I think a transform should not affect things like dx, dy
21:05:22 <Tav> I can't call in...
21:06:13 <cyril> tav trying connecting with the regular code
21:06:15 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:06:21 <Zakim> -heycam
21:06:24 <Tav> o
21:06:28 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:06:30 <Zakim> -cyril
21:06:31 <Zakim> -ed
21:06:42 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:06:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see ericm
21:06:44 <Zakim> -ericm
21:06:44 <Zakim> Team_(svg)20:01Z has ended
21:06:45 <Zakim> Attendees were heycam, +1.408.543.aaaa, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cyril, [IPcaller], ed, ericm, ChrisL
21:06:48 <heycam> Zakim, this is svg
21:06:48 <Zakim> heycam, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be svg".
21:06:53 <heycam> Zakim, this will be svg
21:06:53 <Zakim> ok, heycam; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start 6 minutes ago
21:06:56 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started
21:07:01 <Zakim> +ChrisL
21:07:01 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
21:07:04 <ChrisL> i'm in 7841
21:07:05 <Zakim> +cyril
21:07:07 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
21:07:13 <Zakim> +??P5
21:07:15 <heycam> Zakim, ??P5 is me
21:07:15 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:07:26 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:07:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam
21:07:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:07:36 <heycam> Zakim, +1.415 is vhardy
21:07:36 <Zakim> +vhardy; got it
21:07:38 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
21:07:38 <Zakim> +ed; got it
21:07:50 <vhardy> Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is vhardy
21:07:50 <Zakim> sorry, vhardy, I do not recognize a party named '+1.415.832.aaaa'
21:08:05 <ChrisL> rrsagent,  here
21:08:05 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-svg-irc#T21-08-05
21:08:21 <cyril> ed: I agree, transform should not affect dx and dy
21:08:41 <Zakim> +Tav
21:08:58 <ed> s/should not affect dx and dy/should not affect text like dx and dy, taking up space and so on, it's purely a visual effect/
21:09:00 <cyril> heycam: the transform could apply after the text layout has been applied
21:09:35 <cyril> chris: aaa tspan bbb tspan ccc
21:09:42 <heycam> <text>aa<tspan>bb</tspan>cc</text>
21:10:30 <cyril> chris: if the tspan had a transform, it would not affect the position of cc
21:10:41 <cyril> ... we need to think about nested tspans with transforms
21:10:48 <cyril> tav: do we have use cases for that ?
21:11:35 <cyril> "<tspan> doesn't seem to apply the effects of a transform attribute.  Doing so would make it easier to keep passages of text together for readability/searchability while still adjusting the position of style effects."
21:12:07 <ChrisL> yes but what is it for?
21:12:17 <cyril> doug: I'm happy with Chris's suggestion
21:12:19 <ChrisL> is it for animating,so text jiggles around?
21:13:02 <cyril> cyril: doesn't this complexify the implementation: two passes ?
21:13:10 <ChrisL> tspan:hover {transform: translate(10,10) }
21:13:38 <cyril> tav: I'd be happy to add it if I had one useful example
21:13:52 <ChrisL> elusive text
21:14:00 <ed> a scale transform would be more useful
21:14:00 <cyril> doug: when you are editing text 
21:14:37 <cyril> chris: the major use cases could be in dynamic
21:14:56 <cyril> ... you don't want it to affect the other text
21:15:19 <cyril> ... we should be sure it adds value before pushing it forward
21:16:48 <cyril> heycam: the cost for us will not be extremely hard
21:17:14 <cyril> doug: we should have a model for getting the computed geometry
21:17:31 <cyril> ... the computed style is the style while all the changes have been made
21:17:51 <cyril> ... the analog of that would be the geometry aside all the transforms applied to it
21:19:12 <cyril> cyril: we need to explain about bounding boxes, glyph data (text api)
21:19:21 <ChrisL> how does this affect text ona  path?
21:19:37 <cyril> doug: what about skew, does it apply ?
21:20:40 <cyril> ed: doug had a point that it could be nice to have a consistent to be able to specify transforms everywhere
21:20:50 <cyril> ... but I'm not sure it's worth the cost
21:22:37 <cyril> heycam: the transform on the text is a transform on the whole text
21:22:39 <Zakim> -heycam
21:23:04 <cyril> ... if you could a DOM method on a text element on some of the children 
21:23:37 <heycam> so at the moment with <text transform="…">abc<tspan>…</tspan></text> all the glyphs are within the same coordinate space
21:23:48 <ChrisL> do we also have transform on <a> inside text and if so, isn't this exactly the same as tspan?
21:24:04 <heycam> this proposal would change that, so we do need to decide how that affects calling dom text positioning methods on the containing <text> element
21:24:20 <heycam> ChrisL, nice question, I wonder what implementations do there
21:24:31 <Zakim> +??P5
21:24:34 <heycam> Zakim, ??P5 is me
21:24:34 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:25:59 <cyril> heycam: I'm slightly in favor of adding it
21:26:13 <ed> data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><text y="40"><a transform="rotate(25)">link</a> outside link</text></svg>
21:28:18 <ChrisL> data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><text y="40"><tspan transform="rotate(25)">link</tspan> outside link</text></svg>
21:29:08 <ChrisL> ok so we should bring tspan into line with a here
21:29:26 <cyril> RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will allow transforms on tspan
21:30:01 <cyril> the next F2F will be in Manly, 11-14/01/2012
21:31:34 <ed> 9-11 May for css, 9 is fx day
21:32:00 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:32:04 <Zakim> -heycam
21:32:06 <Zakim> -ed
21:32:06 <Zakim> -vhardy
21:32:08 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:32:09 <Zakim> -Tav
21:34:03 <cyril> RSSAgent, make minutes
21:34:44 <cyril> I've edited the requirements page
21:38:28 <cyril> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:38:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-svg-minutes.html cyril
21:38:52 <cyril> RRSAgent, make minutes public
21:38:52 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', cyril.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:58:14 <Zakim> -cyril
21:58:15 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
21:58:17 <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam, [IPcaller], vhardy, ed, Tav
23:48:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg