IRC log of svg on 2011-12-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:00:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-svg-irc
20:00:45 [ericm_]
ericm_ has joined #svg
20:00:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
20:00:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:48 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
20:00:49 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:49 [trackbot]
Date: 01 December 2011
20:01:53 [ed]
Zakim, room for 8?
20:01:56 [Zakim]
ok, ed; conference Team_(svg)20:01Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 60 minutes until 2101Z
20:02:51 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:01Z has now started
20:02:57 [Zakim]
+??P2
20:03:00 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:03:03 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:03:07 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:03:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see heycam
20:03:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.543.aaaa
20:04:03 [Zakim]
+Tav
20:04:04 [cyril]
"the conference is restricted at this time"
20:04:12 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
20:04:51 [Zakim]
+cyril
20:08:24 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
20:08:39 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:08:39 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:08:52 [shepazu]
zakim, who's noisy?
20:09:04 [Zakim]
shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (53%), Tav (9%), cyril (4%)
20:10:26 [ed]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0096.html
20:11:56 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:11:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see heycam, +1.408.543.aaaa, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cyril, ed
20:12:05 [heycam]
Zakim, +1 is ericm
20:12:05 [Zakim]
+ericm; got it
20:12:58 [ed]
Zakim, pick a scribe
20:12:58 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cyril
20:13:17 [cyril]
scribe: Cyril
20:13:23 [cyril]
scribeNick:Cyril
20:13:28 [cyril]
Topic: F2F
20:13:54 [cyril]
doug: would it be better to meet in California with the other WG ?
20:14:15 [cyril]
... there is a possibility that either Chris or I could attend the F2F
20:14:45 [cyril]
... there was a proposal by the WebApps chairs that the joint sessions in TPAC where useful but not sufficient
20:14:57 [cyril]
... we thought that a mini tpac would be valuable
20:15:07 [cyril]
... WebApps, DAP, SVG , CSS
20:15:14 [cyril]
... maye WebEvents
20:15:35 [cyril]
... the proposal is that it happens in California because of the people in California
20:15:43 [cyril]
CC: when ?
20:15:54 [cyril]
s/CC:/cyril:/
20:16:06 [cyril]
ed: march was the proposed date
20:16:36 [cyril]
... it could be earlier because if we decide to skip the January F2F it would be too close to may
20:16:56 [heycam]
yeah, having SVG meet in january, march and may just seemed a little too much
20:16:57 [cyril]
doug: heycam has mentionned that having both would be problematic
20:17:16 [cyril]
cyril: budget-wise ?
20:17:24 [cyril]
heycam: also time-wise
20:18:01 [cyril]
doug: there is also the matter of it being problematic to have so many meetings for W3C folks
20:18:04 [Zakim]
-heycam
20:18:08 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
20:18:27 [Zakim]
+??P2
20:18:29 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:18:29 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:19:13 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:19:13 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ChrisL
20:19:24 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
20:19:53 [cyril]
cyril: meeting with other groups is good, but it wont' make us progress on SVG 2
20:20:21 [cyril]
doug: colocating doesn't mean having all meetings together
20:20:42 [cyril]
... things like Component Model is something that we can't do by ourselves
20:21:29 [cyril]
doug: it's cheaper for me to go to California
20:21:41 [cyril]
chris: same plus cheaper/shorter for me
20:23:39 [TabAtkins]
fwiw, I have no preference on meeting locations. They're all the same for me.
20:25:30 [cyril]
doug: I suggest that we go ahead and have the Sydney F2F and that we propose to have a mini-tpac later in the year
20:25:51 [cyril]
... and that each group works towards milestones for the mini-tpac to be more efficient
20:26:04 [ChrisL]
sounds like a request for a well-in-advance agenda
20:26:10 [cyril]
... for instance the Component model needs to be flushed-out to be more useful for SVG
20:26:50 [cyril]
cyril: and documents submitted in advance
20:27:34 [cyril]
doug: I don't want to substitute California with Bucharest
20:27:57 [cyril]
chris: me neither because of Libre Graphics and the AC meeting
20:28:29 [cyril]
... all meetings are back to back
20:28:33 [TabAtkins]
Note that the CSSWG is also meeting in San Diego later in the year, if you want another colocation that's not Bucharest.
20:28:38 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#F2F_Meeting_Information
20:28:40 [cyril]
ed: I updated the wiki with this
20:28:44 [ChrisL]
lgm weds 2-sat 5
20:29:10 [ChrisL]
css and svg sun 6 - sat qw
20:29:31 [ChrisL]
ac sun 13-tue 15
20:29:35 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#Upcoming_F2Fs
20:29:37 [cyril]
doug: what would you think if I tried to set up an SVG mini event?
20:30:06 [cyril]
... a half day or evening workshop to get people to meet with us
20:30:32 [cyril]
chris: I don't know what is the community interested in Bucharest
20:30:43 [cyril]
doug: possibly too in Sydney
20:31:33 [cyril]
ed: what dates for Sydney
20:31:38 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2012
20:32:28 [cyril]
hecyam: vincent would prefer a 3 day meeting
20:32:34 [cyril]
... monday to friday
20:33:16 [cyril]
... I think 4 days sound like a more reasonnable compromise
20:33:37 [cyril]
chris: tuesday to friday
20:33:53 [Zakim]
-heycam
20:33:55 [cyril]
ed: I'll be travelling on tuesday
20:34:09 [Zakim]
+??P2
20:34:11 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:34:11 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:34:24 [cyril]
cyril: wednesday to saturday
20:35:11 [cyril]
heycam: i have to be in melbourne on monday, I need a bit of time on the weekend to prepare
20:35:39 [ed]
s/ed: I'll be travelling on tuesday/ed: I'll (probably) be travelling on tuesday/
20:36:29 [cyril]
doug: the event could be also an evening thing
20:36:54 [cyril]
heycam: as long as people have prepared before the F2F or they will be distracted
20:38:28 [cyril]
erik: the 11th to the 14th ?
20:39:33 [cyril]
RESOLUTION: the next F2F will be in Manly, 11-14/01/2012
20:42:54 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback
20:42:54 [cyril]
Topic: SVG 2 Requirements
20:43:14 [cyril]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Use_CSS_.27white-space.27_instead_of_.27xml:space.27
20:43:43 [cyril]
heycam: what are our plans for publishing ?
20:44:01 [cyril]
... do we want to wait until the list is fully reviewed ?
20:44:16 [cyril]
chris: do we publish in the TR space ?
20:44:41 [cyril]
... a wiki is more useful than the TR space but the TR will be looked at by more people
20:45:00 [cyril]
doug: the editor's draft could be the wiki page
20:45:29 [cyril]
heycam: putting the document in good shape for the TR space will require some work
20:45:39 [cyril]
... is it a useful effort ?
20:45:50 [heycam]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/2.0/reqs/publish/
20:47:56 [heycam]
a second pass doing prioritisation sounds like a good idea to me
20:47:57 [cyril]
ed: we will need a second pass on the reqs to prioritize
20:48:13 [heycam]
I am concerned that making local decisions about including or not will let us end up with a long list of things we've included
20:49:35 [Zakim]
-heycam
20:50:15 [heycam]
I thought the second pass for prioritisation would be a real time thing, like on a telcon.
20:50:16 [cyril]
tav: it'll take weeks to write
20:50:23 [cyril]
ed: yes
20:50:23 [heycam]
And obviously the prose writing would be something to do offline.
20:50:36 [heycam]
So I'm not sure we could do it at the same time.
20:50:55 [Zakim]
+??P2
20:50:56 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:50:56 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:50:58 [cyril]
doug: I don't think that we need to go into further details in TR than on the wiki
20:51:42 [cyril]
chris: people who have looked at the requirements deeply will probably understand but outsiders will need text to understand the reqs (on the wiki or in the RT space)
20:51:54 [cyril]
s/RT/RT/
20:51:56 [cyril]
s/RT/TR/
20:52:13 [cyril]
doug: I like the idea of farming it out
20:52:35 [cyril]
cyril: on the wiki first
20:52:37 [cyril]
doug: yes
20:52:40 [cyril]
chris: yes
20:53:39 [cyril]
heycam: the proposal is that everyone expands on the wiki each requirements with a paragraph
20:54:03 [cyril]
chris: what about those that we have rejected
20:54:11 [cyril]
tav: it is useful to have it
20:54:25 [cyril]
chris: having the rationale is useful
20:56:41 [cyril]
chris: I'm suggesting that we update the current wiki page
20:57:29 [cyril]
doug: maybe instead of publishing in the TR space, we make a link to the Wiki page
20:58:26 [cyril]
ACTION: heycam to copy text from the current reqs document and add placeholders for people to fill in
20:58:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3179 - Copy text from the current reqs document and add placeholders for people to fill in [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-12-08].
20:58:53 [cyril]
Topic: white space
20:59:00 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Use_CSS_.27white-space.27_instead_of_.27xml:space.27
20:59:54 [ChrisL]
we already decided this
21:00:25 [cyril]
doug: authoring tools will be shoving out the old xml thing
21:01:02 [cyril]
chris: I noticed the there is an effort in the Inkscape community to clean up the output
21:01:15 [cyril]
... they could remove xml thing
21:02:06 [cyril]
RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will deprecate the use of xml:space to affect layout and will use the CSS white-space property
21:02:22 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Allow_.40transform_to_apply_to_.3Ctspan.3E_elements
21:02:34 [cyril]
Topic: transforms on tspan elements
21:03:27 [cyril]
cyril: it's linked to http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Consider_adding_transform.3D.22.22_to_.3Csvg.3E
21:03:33 [vhardy]
vhardy has joined #svg
21:03:47 [cyril]
chris: I don't think adding transform on every element makes sense (e.g gradient stop)
21:04:05 [cyril]
tav: what happens if you transform a tspan to the next tspan
21:04:21 [cyril]
doug: the next tspan wouldn't be affected
21:04:27 [Zakim]
-Tav
21:04:30 [cyril]
chris: unlike dx and dy,
21:04:43 [cyril]
... we should be careful about making the difference clear
21:05:13 [cyril]
doug: I think a transform should not affect things like dx, dy
21:05:22 [Tav]
I can't call in...
21:06:13 [cyril]
tav trying connecting with the regular code
21:06:15 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
21:06:21 [Zakim]
-heycam
21:06:24 [Tav]
o
21:06:28 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
21:06:30 [Zakim]
-cyril
21:06:31 [Zakim]
-ed
21:06:42 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
21:06:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ericm
21:06:44 [Zakim]
-ericm
21:06:44 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:01Z has ended
21:06:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were heycam, +1.408.543.aaaa, Tav, Doug_Schepers, cyril, [IPcaller], ed, ericm, ChrisL
21:06:48 [heycam]
Zakim, this is svg
21:06:48 [Zakim]
heycam, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be svg".
21:06:53 [heycam]
Zakim, this will be svg
21:06:53 [Zakim]
ok, heycam; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start 6 minutes ago
21:06:56 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started
21:07:01 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
21:07:01 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
21:07:04 [ChrisL]
i'm in 7841
21:07:05 [Zakim]
+cyril
21:07:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
21:07:13 [Zakim]
+??P5
21:07:15 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
21:07:15 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
21:07:26 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
21:07:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam
21:07:31 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:07:36 [heycam]
Zakim, +1.415 is vhardy
21:07:36 [Zakim]
+vhardy; got it
21:07:38 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
21:07:38 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
21:07:50 [vhardy]
Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is vhardy
21:07:50 [Zakim]
sorry, vhardy, I do not recognize a party named '+1.415.832.aaaa'
21:08:05 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
21:08:05 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-svg-irc#T21-08-05
21:08:21 [cyril]
ed: I agree, transform should not affect dx and dy
21:08:41 [Zakim]
+Tav
21:08:58 [ed]
s/should not affect dx and dy/should not affect text like dx and dy, taking up space and so on, it's purely a visual effect/
21:09:00 [cyril]
heycam: the transform could apply after the text layout has been applied
21:09:35 [cyril]
chris: aaa tspan bbb tspan ccc
21:09:42 [heycam]
<text>aa<tspan>bb</tspan>cc</text>
21:10:30 [cyril]
chris: if the tspan had a transform, it would not affect the position of cc
21:10:41 [cyril]
... we need to think about nested tspans with transforms
21:10:48 [cyril]
tav: do we have use cases for that ?
21:11:35 [cyril]
"<tspan> doesn't seem to apply the effects of a transform attribute. Doing so would make it easier to keep passages of text together for readability/searchability while still adjusting the position of style effects."
21:12:07 [ChrisL]
yes but what is it for?
21:12:17 [cyril]
doug: I'm happy with Chris's suggestion
21:12:19 [ChrisL]
is it for animating,so text jiggles around?
21:13:02 [cyril]
cyril: doesn't this complexify the implementation: two passes ?
21:13:10 [ChrisL]
tspan:hover {transform: translate(10,10) }
21:13:38 [cyril]
tav: I'd be happy to add it if I had one useful example
21:13:52 [ChrisL]
elusive text
21:14:00 [ed]
a scale transform would be more useful
21:14:00 [cyril]
doug: when you are editing text
21:14:37 [cyril]
chris: the major use cases could be in dynamic
21:14:56 [cyril]
... you don't want it to affect the other text
21:15:19 [cyril]
... we should be sure it adds value before pushing it forward
21:16:48 [cyril]
heycam: the cost for us will not be extremely hard
21:17:14 [cyril]
doug: we should have a model for getting the computed geometry
21:17:31 [cyril]
... the computed style is the style while all the changes have been made
21:17:51 [cyril]
... the analog of that would be the geometry aside all the transforms applied to it
21:19:12 [cyril]
cyril: we need to explain about bounding boxes, glyph data (text api)
21:19:21 [ChrisL]
how does this affect text ona path?
21:19:37 [cyril]
doug: what about skew, does it apply ?
21:20:40 [cyril]
ed: doug had a point that it could be nice to have a consistent to be able to specify transforms everywhere
21:20:50 [cyril]
... but I'm not sure it's worth the cost
21:22:37 [cyril]
heycam: the transform on the text is a transform on the whole text
21:22:39 [Zakim]
-heycam
21:23:04 [cyril]
... if you could a DOM method on a text element on some of the children
21:23:37 [heycam]
so at the moment with <text transform="…">abc<tspan>…</tspan></text> all the glyphs are within the same coordinate space
21:23:48 [ChrisL]
do we also have transform on <a> inside text and if so, isn't this exactly the same as tspan?
21:24:04 [heycam]
this proposal would change that, so we do need to decide how that affects calling dom text positioning methods on the containing <text> element
21:24:20 [heycam]
ChrisL, nice question, I wonder what implementations do there
21:24:31 [Zakim]
+??P5
21:24:34 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
21:24:34 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
21:25:59 [cyril]
heycam: I'm slightly in favor of adding it
21:26:13 [ed]
data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><text y="40"><a transform="rotate(25)">link</a> outside link</text></svg>
21:28:18 [ChrisL]
data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><text y="40"><tspan transform="rotate(25)">link</tspan> outside link</text></svg>
21:29:08 [ChrisL]
ok so we should bring tspan into line with a here
21:29:26 [cyril]
RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will allow transforms on tspan
21:30:01 [cyril]
the next F2F will be in Manly, 11-14/01/2012
21:31:34 [ed]
9-11 May for css, 9 is fx day
21:32:00 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
21:32:04 [Zakim]
-heycam
21:32:06 [Zakim]
-ed
21:32:06 [Zakim]
-vhardy
21:32:08 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
21:32:09 [Zakim]
-Tav
21:34:03 [cyril]
RSSAgent, make minutes
21:34:44 [cyril]
I've edited the requirements page
21:38:28 [cyril]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:38:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-svg-minutes.html cyril
21:38:52 [cyril]
RRSAgent, make minutes public
21:38:52 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', cyril. Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:58:14 [Zakim]
-cyril
21:58:15 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
21:58:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam, [IPcaller], vhardy, ed, Tav
23:48:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg