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<trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
<trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
<scribe> scribenick: gavinc
Guus: Didn't have a meeting last week for Thanksgiving. Small meeting this week with so many at SemTech
gavinc: Updated Graph-TF wiki page, tried to find more info from mailing lists. Added link to RDF Concepts datatypes to Turtle
<AndyS> AndyS has no progress to report on action #119 "Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it" - sorry
AndyS: No progress on ISSUE-119
<AndyS> s/ISSUE/ACTION/ !!!!!!!!
Guus: PatH completed
... Sandro and David Wood can't make it next week. May need to cancel
Guus: Richard is not here. Who wants to give the current status of this debate?
AndyS: I don't see any reason to keep XMLLiterals hard coded into the specs.
AndyS: As long as their optional, not that concerned about them
PatH: Was there any consensus in emails?
Guus: Needed for RDF/XML, but not
... No significant disagreement
gavinc: No strong opinions if it's optional, but the value space is a bit complicated
JeremyCarroll: People seem not to want to mention XML C14N. I think I should provide a rationale
<PatH> +1 to Jeremy. I suggest masking it optional taks away most of the pain.
JeremyCarroll: If you need to
compare things, C14N is a requirement. If you want to do
logical operations over it then you need to do the C14N. We
need to specify how to do compare, but not every application
needs to do compare
... Making it optional seems like the key change.
... I prefer doing in L2V mapping, but was easier as an implementor do it in the XML parser
... At some point will need to compare an XMLLiteral from RDF/XML and Turtle, wherew will we do the work? I think right now we're saying to do it durring the compare
<ericP> editorially, we could motivate this by use cases: "For use cases which motivate equivalence between XML literals, generators of XML literals rfc2119:SHOULD canonicalize XML literals by XML Canonicalization"
AndyS: You said that the XML comunity has done some work on equality?
JeremyCarroll: XML C14N talks
about equality, XML infoset doesn't.
... Namespaces are an example of this.
... XML C14N addresses what to do with XML Namespaces
... There are not perfect answers here.
pfps: If reading from an XML document, I understand why you need to get this right, but if your not using XML documents. In Turtle you can treat them as string
Guus: This could be in RDF/XML no RDF Concepts?
<PatH> if this is optional as a datatype, then we can have two kinds of xml literals with different mappings and values.
JeremyCarroll: I think pfps, I think XMLLiteral should compare as a String, and RDF/XML should do the XML C14N, but in Turtle don't do anything. Only works if hand codded perfectly.
<ericP> gavinc: pfps's approach sounds OK
<ericP> ... i've used XML literals a fair amount. I don't think XML literal meets any of its original use cases.
<ericP> ... you can't use it for fragments 'cause c14n talks about documents
<ericP> ... fragments get strange
<JeremyCarroll> hmmm - xc14n is all about fragments not documents ...
<ericP> ... adding formatted XML into RDF seems like a good use case, but we can't use c14n
<PatH> in this pfps proposal, what is the L2V map? what are the literal values? c14n or text?
<ericP> ... we and others put escaped HTML into strings
Guus: I don't want to spend a huge ammount of time on this issue.
ACTION gavinc raise issue around formated text literals
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - gavinc
ACTION Gavin raise issue around formated text literals
<trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Raise issue around formated text literals [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-12-07].
<Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to correct Gavin's backwards
ericP: ... said stuff about XML C14N ...
Guus: what is the impact?
ericP: for some use cases, generators should use XML C14N
ericP: Pushing back on only being in RDF/XML
JeremyCarroll: That's a large
... Muddling up use cases with normative text is not a direction I want the specs to go
Guus: is there consensus?
AndyS: I thought Richards desire
and ericP's desires could be resolved with character
... SPARQL can go on with a at risk feature.
... Haven't seen a responce from ericP
ericP: I see all of it as an improvement
<ericP> +1 from me
<AndyS> If this has consensus, SPARQL-WG can proceed as described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0229.html
<PatH> The 'committee' heuristic: always make as few binding decisions as possible.
<AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0249.html (first comment)
"Is escaping the URI-legal, non-alphanumerics as character escapes acceptable to you?"
<JeremyCarroll> shall we create an action to make the text?
<identifier_char> : [a-zA-Z0-9-] | \\[URI-legal, non-alphanumerics]
Guus: There have been some
messages on the uses of the 4th column
... IRI in the 4th column seems to be the consensus
AZ: It is still useful to have Literals in the 4th column
Guus: has to be extreamly compelling to change the design
AZ: For temporal RDF, people are
annotating with VALUE, not a IRI
... other proposals that annotate with trust values, which again, are values.
PatH: Allow literals in 4th
positions, one can imagine uses
... I don't think we have preserve existing desgin, we don't have one
<AZ> strong +1 PatH
PatH: Should not prohibit values in fields in RDF
JeremyCarroll: Original design
had a 5th column
... When you think about it, you want to talk about small graphs (molecules). Give those subgraphs name...
<PatH> the fourth column need not be a graph name. We dont yet have enough experience to know how quads may be used.
JeremyCarroll: I don't understand the restince to I don't understand the resistance to named graphs.
AZ: Need to be able to relate the
IRI to the graph itself as the label.
... The IRI doesn't denote the graph
... Then you can't annotate the triples
PatH: the 4th column doesn't denote, so we shouldn't restrict how it's used
Guus: We don't require the 4th column to denote, so we shouldn't place other requirements on the 4th column
<PatH> losing sound?
<AZ> in SPARQL does really have a "fourth column"
AndyS: SPARQL does not "denote", but does require an IRI
<PatH> to hell with writing a spec in order to preserve someone's optimizers.
<pchampin> anyway, SPARQL does allow literals in subject position, doesnt it?
<pchampin> so optimizing that way is already non-compliant :)
AndyS: The words in the SPARQL algebra say IRI, but could change.
Guus: Would feel more comfortable if the SPARQL working group would respond formally
<AZ> To me it's ok to have SPARQL forbid literals as "name for graphs", it's just that quads with literals would not translate directly to SPARQL datasets
ACTION Guus to ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column
<trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - Ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-12-07].
<PatH> +i az
<PatH> +1 az
<AndyS> ... That's a gotcha. :-(
<Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)
JeremyCarroll: The thing with RDF is that we don't have a Triple. We have a subject, predicate, and object. Those are all different
<ericP> i didn't see any LL(1) or LALR(1) grammar conflicts when adding literals to http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker?name=trigTurtle&replace=1&lang=perl#prod-trigTurtle_EGP-graph
JeremyCarroll: That is the
design. The design is about making choices. You get inter op by
having a design and limitations.
... The goal of named graphs was to add the least amount of change to address new use cases.
... I don't see allowing literals in the 4th field to be anything other then us failing to do our jobs
<AndyS> Does any TriG parser enforce one-use of an IRI to id a graph?
<AZ> If it's doomed to be an IRI, then we should be more precise about what that IRI refers to
<JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: the purpose of a standards body is to make decisions in the design
pchampin: no one wants to restrict what the 4th column can be
<JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: not to provide general machinery that can be used in a non-interoperable fashion
<JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: previous group went for Subject, Predicate, Object as a triple, not three general items
<JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: we should specify what the 4th column is specifiying
pchampin: going back to older proposal graph is not labeled not by an IRI but by a resource
<JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: making it identify the graph is clear and works with the previous spec
PatH: I'm sympathetic with
JeremyCarroll's position. I like that design. I've been working
there for some months, but that it's untenable.
... quad stores violate that design.
... we need to rethink what that 4th position is
... we shouldn't tie ourselves up
<pchampin> +1 to pat
Guus: If the IRI is not forced to denote, then we should make very clear why it's an IRI
<AndyS> (this discussion invalidates my action 119)
<AndyS> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
<AndyS> Any generated IRI is still subject to rule governing the legality of IRIs. e.g. og:audio\:title (This does not cover one way or the other (1) adding %xx with unescaped % in PN_LOCAL (2) \u escapes in Turtle)
<PatH> I will escape now:-)
<AndyS> PROPOSAL: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
<MacTed> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
<trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- \xxxx escaping in prefixed names -- open
<trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open
<MacTed> +1 to proposal, with my insert :-)
<AndyS> PROPOSAL: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
trackbot, end meeting
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