18:01:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
18:01:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/29-text-irc
18:01:32 <Zakim> +??P5
18:01:43 <janina> janina has joined #text
18:01:50 <Zakim> +Judy
18:01:53 <Zakim> -??P5
18:01:55 <Zakim> +??P5
18:05:11 <Judy> agenda+ WG location of alt guidance doc -- status of change proposal; new draft(s)
18:05:11 <Judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0215.html
18:05:11 <Judy> agenda+ updates on longdesc survey, or response to Matt's updated proposal?
18:05:11 <Judy> agenda+ status of meta name=generator issue? 
18:05:11 <Judy> agenda+ status of discussion on generated content? <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>
18:05:12 <Judy> agenda+ resuming work on document location for alt guidance
18:05:14 <Judy> agenda+ any other text-alternatives issues to discuss or track for now? 
18:05:16 <Judy> agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn.
18:05:43 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
18:05:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, Judy
18:06:11 <janina> zakim, ??P5 is Janina
18:06:11 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
18:07:20 <Judy> scribe: judy
18:07:40 <Judy> topic: status check across multiple items
18:07:45 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
18:09:37 <Judy> JS: still may finish response to Matt, but not to hold up Chairs
18:10:27 <Judy> JB: can attach response to Matt to Laura's CP or in info in survey
18:11:08 <Judy> JS: JF asked Jonas to read it; follow up with John Foliot?
18:11:19 <Judy> JB: will follow up with JohnF
18:11:31 <Judy> JS: also suggesting checking w/ David B
18:11:37 <Judy> JB: will do that too
18:12:14 <Judy> JS: will ask Rich to also check w/ Jonas on this
18:12:45 <Judy> [that item was topic #2]
18:12:53 <Judy> zakim, take up item 3
18:12:53 <Zakim> agendum 3. "status of meta name=generator issue?" taken up [from Judy]
18:13:04 <Judy> JB: status?
18:13:33 <Judy> JS: Janina and Steve need to talk
18:15:37 <Judy> JB: schedule something this week?
18:16:47 <Zakim> -Janina
18:16:53 <janina> janina has left #text
18:17:44 <Judy> JS: will try [and had to leave call]
18:17:53 <Judy> zakim, take up item 3
18:17:53 <Zakim> agendum 3. "status of meta name=generator issue?" taken up [from Judy]
18:18:14 <Judy> JB: status? 
18:18:31 <Judy> MNC, JB: JF pulling together some kind of team
18:20:16 <Judy> JB: will check progress w/ John
18:20:48 <Judy> agenda?
18:20:55 <Judy> zakim, close item 2
18:21:01 <Judy> zakim, close item 3
18:21:06 <Judy> zakim, close item 4
18:21:09 <Zakim> agendum 2, updates on longdesc survey, or response to Matt's updated proposal?, closed
18:21:11 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:21:14 <Zakim> 1. WG location of alt guidance doc -- status of change proposal; new draft(s) [from Judy]
18:21:16 <Zakim> agendum 3, status of meta name=generator issue?, closed
18:21:19 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:21:21 <Zakim> 1. WG location of alt guidance doc -- status of change proposal; new draft(s) [from Judy]
18:21:24 <Zakim> agendum 4, status of discussion on generated content? <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>, closed
18:21:27 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:21:28 <Judy> zakim, drop item 5
18:21:29 <Zakim> 1. WG location of alt guidance doc -- status of change proposal; new draft(s) [from Judy]
18:21:31 <Zakim> agendum 5, resuming work on document location for alt guidance, dropped
18:22:10 <Judy> zakim, take up item 6
18:22:10 <Zakim> agendum 6. "any other text-alternatives issues to discuss or track for now?" taken up [from Judy]
18:23:14 <Judy> JB: any recent items from the bug-triage sub group to toss over to the text-alternatives group?
18:23:41 <Judy> MC: not sure. they're mainly working on providing info on "needs info" bugs.
18:24:44 <Judy> JB: can you at your next tues meeting of bug triage TF, to confirm that they've passed everything that they need to to this subgroup, and that we've caught it all? 
18:24:51 <Judy> MC: searching on that qu now.
18:25:08 <Judy> .....
18:26:05 <Judy> MC: status is mixed... "won't fix,"..... "fixed"....
18:26:51 <Judy> JB: both types need confirmation
18:27:15 <Judy> MC: so we've gotta check "needs info," "won't fix," and "fixed"
18:27:25 <Judy> JB: everything needs confirmation, yup
18:27:55 <Judy> ...and there's been a stats request
18:29:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:31:18 <Judy> ... # of bugs that were TF-backed, and which ones were tagged w/ a11y but not necessarily TF-backed
18:32:13 <LeonieW> LeonieW has joined #text
18:45:19 <LeonieW_> LeonieW_ has joined #text
18:45:30 <Judy> [discussion of bug stats continues, off-topic for text alternative sub-group call but still waiting for another participant to return to agenda...]
18:45:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
18:47:17 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #text
18:47:18 <Judy> zakim, IPcaller.a = SteveF
18:47:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IPcaller.a = SteveF', Judy
18:47:28 <MichaelC> zakim, .a is SteveF
18:47:28 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named '.a'
18:47:30 <Judy> zakim, [IPcaller.a] = SteveF
18:47:30 <Zakim> I don't understand '[IPcaller.a] = SteveF', Judy
18:47:39 <MichaelC> zakim, Ipcaller.a is SteveF
18:47:39 <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
18:48:55 <Judy> scribe: Leonie
18:49:00 <Judy> chair: Judy
18:49:15 <Judy> zakim, take up item 1
18:49:15 <Zakim> agendum 1. "WG location of alt guidance doc -- status of change proposal; new draft(s)" taken up [from Judy]
18:50:19 <LeonieW> JB: There was initial concern about some of the alt guidance in the HTML draft.
18:50:50 <LeonieW> JB: The plan was to counter that with more experienced guidance from the accessibility community, and extract it into a separate document.
18:51:12 <LeonieW> JB: It was then though this information would be better suited as WCAG techniques or application notes for WCAG.
18:51:22 <LeonieW> s/though/thought/
18:51:55 <LeonieW> JB: There was then a survey that resulted in other suggestions. Things were then revisited. 
18:53:07 <LeonieW> JB: Michael was then actioned to write a rationale for making the information more in line with accessibility guidance in other specs.
18:53:09 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:53:18 <MichaelC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/att-0095/alt-techs-change-proposal.html Draft change proposal
18:53:25 <LeonieW> JB: Another action was to pull some of the less accurate guidance out of the spec. This hasn't happened yet.
18:53:50 <LeonieW> JB: Meanwhile the alt text document has been updated and continues to move forward.
18:53:57 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
18:53:57 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
18:53:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/29-text-minutes.html LeonieW
18:54:17 <MichaelC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/0099.html Laura Carlson's feedback
18:54:30 <LeonieW> JB: Steve, you've put a ton of work into this. Wanted to make sure you were aware of the background.
18:54:36 <MichaelC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/0098.html Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis' feedback
18:55:06 <LeonieW> SF: There is a lot of normative text within the HTML5 spec. I don't see that moving alt text out of the HTML WG achieves anything.
18:55:28 <LeonieW> SF: It's useful for the document to be there because it's a draft normative document.
18:56:34 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/04/locate-a11y-advice Philosophical position on location of accessibility advice that got me into this mess :)
18:56:39 <LeonieW> SF: The alt doc is normative and it has requirements. Sometimes those requirements conflict with information in either the W3C or WHAT WG specs.
18:57:16 <LeonieW> JB: Yes. The step that was missed was pulling the less accurate guidance out of the HTML5 spec.
18:58:13 <LeonieW> JB: I understand there is stil some transition. The normativity is a question we may need to revisit. The information you're putting together is likely to be relevant to far more than the HTML5 spec.
18:59:22 <LeonieW> SF: Neither document should provide normative guidance. The guidance from both documents should be conforming with WCAG 2.0.
19:00:23 <LeonieW> JB: The aspects Steve and Michael are working on are complimentary.
19:00:37 <LeonieW> MC: I'm working on where the document should be published, rather than the doc itself.
19:01:24 <LeonieW> JB: The guidance needs to keep evolving and to be in discussion, especially by the people who have the right expertise. It also needs to be more formally moved in terms of where it's published.
19:02:10 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
19:02:25 <LeonieW> SF: What we have at the moment is the HTML5 spec, which has the appearance of the authoritative source. Once we resolve the problem of inaccurate information, everything else will flow from that point.
19:03:23 <LeonieW> SF: If we move it out of the HTML WG we may have less control over it.
19:03:58 <LeonieW> SF: We have a counterpoint within the HTML WG that (I think) provides more accurate information than the HTML5 spec itself.
19:04:39 <LeonieW> JB: What we're trying to do is move this to the next phase. Evolving it with them, but not having it something that could result in the same situation as before.
19:05:06 <LeonieW> SF: OK. Next steps would be to get the problematic content within the HTML5 spec modified or removed. Once that happens, there is no need for a normative document.
19:05:16 <LeonieW> JB: There were bugs filed on removing that during last call?
19:05:19 <LeonieW> SF: Yes.
19:05:32 <LeonieW> JB: I don't think that hinders Michael's work on the place for publishing this doc.
19:05:50 <LeonieW> MC: Listening to Steve, I wonder if that next step is the right one.
19:06:00 <LeonieW> JB: I'm not sure there is time for that.
19:06:28 <LeonieW> MC: The alt doc isn't under the HTML timeline. Getting the content removed from the HTML5 spec is.
19:06:56 <LeonieW> JB: They're publishing the entire suite in one go, not one at a time. There won't be a dedicated publicatin for this one doc, unless there's good reason.
19:07:03 <LeonieW> MC: Has it been to last call status?
19:07:28 <LeonieW> JB: No. I just don't think we have as much time on this as we think.
19:07:54 <LeonieW> JB: We have bugs filed. We need to be following up to make sure those bugs are addressed.
19:08:58 <LeonieW> JB: Does anyone know the status on those bugs?
19:09:47 <LeonieW> LW: We came across these bugs during a triage review, but I don't know what status they were off hand.
19:10:21 <LeonieW> JB: We need to follow up on those bugs. I'm not sure we should wait on doing anything else until they're sorted.
19:10:52 <LeonieW> SF: What would be unacceptable would be to move the alt doc out from HTML WG and not have the incorrect information removed from the HTML5 spec.
19:11:04 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
19:11:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/29-text-minutes.html LeonieW
19:11:44 <LeonieW> MC: I'm not sure how the alt doc would pass canndidate recommendation phase as normative text?
19:12:18 <LeonieW> JB: I think this has been looked into before in the long term.
19:12:51 <LeonieW> SF: There are objections about the objectivity. There will be a second round of last call, so I think there's time.
19:13:14 <Judy> s/objectivity/normativity/
19:13:21 <LeonieW> SF:  The alt doc is guidance. It's techniques like other WCAG techniques.
19:13:54 <LeonieW> JB: Michael, part of your change proposal was to look at te different types of guidance in the alt doc and where they would map.
19:14:32 <LeonieW> MC: I'd prepared a previous document looking into that. I didn't want to bloat the change proposal though.
19:15:19 <LeonieW> MC: Technology specific advice should be part of the spec. Implementation guidance should be elsewhere.
19:15:52 <LeonieW> MC: Technology advice = how do I add an alt text. Implementation advice = how do I write a good text description.
19:16:42 <LeonieW> JB: Léonie, can you or anyone take a look at the status of those bugs?
19:17:21 <LeonieW> JB: I won't be available for this call next week, but perhaps the time could be used to follow up on some of this to provide an update that Janina and I could take to the chairs?
19:18:01 <LeonieW> MC: An hour earlier would be easier for me.
19:18:17 <LeonieW> SF: An hour earlier would be ok, but only for 30 mins.
19:18:59 <LeonieW> MC: We could wrap up the triage call early, as has been happening recently anyway?
19:19:08 <LeonieW> LW: Yes, we could do that.
19:19:58 <JF> JF has joined #text
19:21:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
19:21:49 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
19:22:00 <MichaelC> SF: also need to work on meta generator and title
19:22:03 <Zakim> -SteveF
19:22:08 <MichaelC> JB: Janina wants to schedule phone call on that
19:22:10 <MichaelC> SF: OK
19:22:20 <MichaelC> JB: Update on meta generator?
19:22:35 <MichaelC> JF: s/meta generator/generated content/
19:22:44 <MichaelC> s/meta generator/generated content/
19:23:05 <MichaelC> JF: starting to think of it as a UAAG issue than an HTML 5 issue
19:23:11 <MichaelC> JB: anything need to be pulled from HTML 5?
19:23:15 <MichaelC> JF: Think not
19:23:22 <MichaelC> can check into that
19:23:36 <MichaelC> JB: so issue for UAAG is that generated content needs to be exposed
19:24:56 <MichaelC> what are next actions?
19:25:09 <MichaelC> JF: there is a bug in the system, awaiting editor response
19:25:16 <MichaelC> anticipating response will be it's not HTML 5 issue
19:25:23 <MichaelC> JB: let's proactively alert UAWG
19:26:42 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668
19:27:20 <MichaelC> MC: if JF can add this info to the bug, editor will have something to go on
19:27:37 <MichaelC> JF: will do
19:27:58 <MichaelC> JB: also update TF
19:28:01 <MichaelC> JF: ok
19:28:14 <Judy> agenda?
19:28:37 <Judy> zakim, close item 1
19:28:37 <Zakim> agendum 1, WG location of alt guidance doc -- status of change proposal; new draft(s), closed
19:28:39 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:28:40 <Zakim> 6. any other text-alternatives issues to discuss or track for now? [from Judy]
19:28:40 <Judy> zakim, close item 6
19:28:40 <Zakim> agendum 6, any other text-alternatives issues to discuss or track for now?, closed
19:28:42 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:28:44 <Zakim> 7. confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn. [from Judy]
19:29:40 <Judy> this text alts sub group will meet again in two weeks
19:30:04 <Judy> ...on dec 13th
19:30:12 <Judy> ...at 1pm US EST
19:32:02 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
19:32:24 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
19:32:25 <Zakim> -Judy
19:32:26 <Zakim> Team_(text)18:00Z has ended
19:32:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Judy, Janina, Michael_Cooper, [IPcaller], SteveF, John_Foliot
19:32:44 <MichaelC> present- [IPcaler]
19:32:49 <MichaelC> present+ Léonie_Watson
19:33:17 <MichaelC> chair: Judy_Brewer
19:33:21 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log public
19:33:51 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Nov/0219.html
19:34:08 <MichaelC> meeting: Text Alternatives sub-group, HTML Accessibility Task Force
19:34:42 <MichaelC> regrets: Joshue_O_Connor, Laura_Carlson
19:34:47 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
19:34:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/29-text-minutes.html MichaelC
19:35:04 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
19:35:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #text
19:35:46 <MichaelC> s/scribe: Leonie/scribe: LeonieW/
19:35:49 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
19:35:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/29-text-minutes.html MichaelC
19:37:19 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
19:37:19 <RRSAgent> I see no action items