IRC log of dnt on 2011-11-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:34:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:34:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-irc
16:35:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dnt
16:35:12 [aleecia]
Zakim, this will be dnt
16:35:12 [Zakim]
ok, aleecia; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
16:35:18 [aleecia]
chair is aleecia
16:35:35 [npdoty]
s/chair is/chair:/
16:35:59 [aleecia]
good morning, Nick. Thank you!
16:37:06 [npdoty]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:37:30 [aleecia]
Changing the call sheet will help, I'll try to remember to do that
16:38:47 [aleecia]
regrets+ Heather West, Jeffery Chester, Karl Dubost, Haakon Bratsberg
16:39:21 [aleecia]
agenda+ Select scribe
16:39:54 [aleecia]
agenda+ comments on minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-minutes
16:40:17 [aleecia]
agenda+ action items: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/
16:40:31 [aleecia]
agenda+ Next f2f meeting, further details & planning status
16:40:41 [aleecia]
agenda+ Tracking Selection Lists, update on status
16:40:51 [aleecia]
agenda+ Coming soon: writing assignments for open issues
16:41:09 [aleecia]
agenda+ Issue-19: Data collection / Data use (3rd party)
16:41:20 [aleecia]
agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
16:42:44 [aleecia]
I think I have scribe syntax wrong here too. Should be scribenick: <name>?
16:44:04 [johnsimpson]
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16:50:37 [Zakim]
T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
16:50:44 [Zakim]
+aleecia
16:50:55 [aleecia]
zakim, please mute me
16:50:55 [Zakim]
sorry, aleecia, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:52:34 [efelten]
efelten has joined #dnt
16:56:36 [aleecia]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:56:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aleecia
16:57:54 [joanne]
joanne has joined #DNT
16:58:22 [Zakim]
+efelten
16:58:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.349.aaaa
16:58:54 [WileyS]
WileyS has joined #DNT
16:59:00 [Zakim]
+ +49.431.98.aabb
16:59:09 [carmenb]
carmenb has joined #dnt
16:59:13 [NinjaMarnau]
NinjaMarnau has joined #dnt
16:59:21 [dsriedel]
dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:59:26 [aleecia]
zakim, aaaa is WileyS
16:59:26 [Zakim]
+WileyS; got it
16:59:40 [Zakim]
+johnsimpson
16:59:53 [aleecia]
zakim, aabb is NinjaMarnau
16:59:53 [Zakim]
+NinjaMarnau; got it
17:00:07 [aleecia]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:00:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aleecia, efelten, WileyS, NinjaMarnau, johnsimpson
17:00:22 [alex]
alex has joined #dnt
17:00:26 [johnsimpson]
zakim, mute me
17:00:26 [Zakim]
johnsimpson should now be muted
17:00:27 [justin]
justin has joined #dnt
17:00:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.369.aacc
17:00:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.207.619.aadd
17:00:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.981.aaee
17:00:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.629.aaff
17:00:44 [Zakim]
+npdoty
17:00:46 [aleecia]
scribenick is WileyS
17:00:47 [Zakim]
+dsriedel
17:00:58 [npdoty]
scribenick: WileyS
17:00:58 [tedleung]
tedleung has joined #dnt
17:01:00 [dsriedel]
zakim, mute me
17:01:00 [Zakim]
dsriedel should now be muted
17:01:01 [sidstamm]
sidstamm has joined #dnt
17:01:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.631.aagg
17:01:04 [tl]
zakim aaee is tl
17:01:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.916.641.aahh
17:01:14 [jkaran]
jkaran has joined #dnt
17:01:24 [WileyS]
Allecia: Good morning. Small number of participants - expect a shorter call today. Please identify your phone number with your IRC handle.
17:01:26 [npdoty]
Zakim, aaee is tl
17:01:26 [Zakim]
+tl; got it
17:01:26 [carmenb]
i'm 202.629
17:01:27 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:01:27 [Zakim]
+Justin
17:01:32 [npdoty]
Zakim, aadd is dwainberg
17:01:32 [Zakim]
+dwainberg; got it
17:01:32 [aleecia]
zakim aadd is davidW
17:01:34 [WileyS]
DavidW: Unable to join IRC
17:01:51 [npdoty]
Zakim, who's making noise?
17:01:51 [aleecia]
next agendum
17:01:58 [aleecia]
next agendum
17:01:59 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Please mute if you are not speaking (someone is obviously unable to hear this direction)
17:02:03 [Zakim]
npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (47%), NinjaMarnau (22%), [IPcaller] (49%)
17:02:03 [efelten]
Zakim, aaff is carmenb
17:02:03 [Zakim]
+carmenb; got it
17:02:04 [tedleung]
Zakim 206.369.5622 is tedleung
17:02:06 [aleecia]
close agendum 1
17:02:08 [WileyS]
The quotes are from Shane :-)
17:02:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.619.aaii
17:02:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.917.349.aajj
17:02:27 [aleecia]
agenda?
17:02:44 [tl]
zakim, mute ipcaller
17:02:45 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Any comments on the notes from the last meeting?
17:02:49 [Zakim]
+alex
17:02:50 [joanne]
I'm 916.641
17:02:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.949.573.aakk
17:02:51 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
17:02:52 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] should now be muted
17:02:55 [WileyS]
... No comments - consider approved
17:02:57 [aleecia]
http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/open
17:03:03 [WileyS]
... A couple of action items
17:03:04 [sidstamm]
Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
17:03:04 [Zakim]
+sidstamm; got it
17:03:10 [Zakim]
+Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath
17:03:12 [WileyS]
... Carl could not make the call.
17:03:23 [efelten]
Zakim, aahh is joanne
17:03:23 [Zakim]
+joanne; got it
17:03:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.805.418.aall
17:03:40 [tl]
s/Carl/Karl
17:03:43 [Frank]
Frank has joined #dnt
17:03:49 [vincent]
vincent has joined #dnt
17:04:10 [Lia]
Lia has joined #dnt
17:04:16 [alex]
Zakim, mute me
17:04:16 [Zakim]
alex should now be muted
17:04:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.647.274.aamm
17:04:49 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Set for 2 weeks out (Action-31)
17:05:17 [WileyS]
Action 34: Jonathan and Tom have been working on this. Could either of you comment on how much longer needed?
17:05:17 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 34
17:05:46 [WileyS]
Tom: Action-34 - Could have something ready by the end of this week
17:05:58 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Moving due date to Friday
17:06:00 [WileyS]
Tom: Okay
17:06:23 [jmayer]
jmayer has joined #dnt
17:06:25 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Next Action-36 (Issue-95 related)
17:06:26 [BrianTs]
BrianTs has joined #DNT
17:06:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.773.929.aann
17:06:50 [jmayer]
Zakim, aann is jmayer
17:06:50 [Zakim]
+jmayer; got it
17:06:53 [andyzei]
andyzei has joined #dnt
17:07:18 [WileyS]
Shane: In draft to Tom
17:07:20 [npdoty]
WileyS: action 31 will need to be delayed as I'm out all next week and there are a few of us working on the technical portion (postponed 2 weeks)
17:07:24 [WileyS]
Tom: Will have this out soon
17:07:46 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Providing 2 more days for Action-36 (Issue-95)
17:07:51 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:07:53 [aleecia]
agenda?
17:08:04 [npdoty]
Zakim, close agendum 2
17:08:09 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Action items completed
17:08:10 [npdoty]
Zakim, close agendum 3
17:08:13 [BrianTs]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has BrianTs
17:08:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2, comments on minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-minutes, closed
17:08:18 [WileyS]
...Discussing next face-t0-face meeting
17:08:21 [Zakim]
+BrianTs; got it
17:08:23 [npdoty]
Zakim, take up agendum 4
17:08:26 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:30 [Zakim]
3. action items: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/ [from aleecia]
17:08:35 [WileyS]
...Half-day on Tuesday, continuing on Wednesday and Thursday
17:08:36 [Zakim]
agendum 3, action items: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/, closed
17:08:40 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:42 [Zakim]
4. Next f2f meeting, further details & planning status [from aleecia]
17:08:42 [justin]
Yes, that!
17:08:43 [WileyS]
q+
17:08:44 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Next f2f meeting, further details & planning status" taken up [from aleecia]
17:08:47 [WileyS]
+q
17:09:01 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
17:09:11 [WileyS]
...Looking at moving to half-day on Monday and full days Tuesday and Wednesday
17:09:29 [JC]
JC has joined #DNT
17:09:35 [WileyS]
...Excellent host lined up. Hotels - looking for a place near public transit in Belgium
17:09:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.862.aaoo
17:10:08 [WileyS]
...Expect to have meeting dates soon
17:10:21 [Zakim]
+??P44
17:10:28 [WileyS]
...So everyone can setup airfare. For hotels, any hotel near the railline should be fine
17:10:49 [WileyS]
...will try to provide several hotel options for different budget ranges
17:10:53 [eberkower]
eberkower has joined #dnt
17:11:07 [aleecia]
q?
17:11:11 [aleecia]
ack WileyS
17:11:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.281.aapp
17:11:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.654.aaqq
17:11:51 [WileyS]
Shane: If Monday is half-day we'll need to travel on Sunday
17:12:13 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Understood, we're look at that in trying to balance all of the groups needs - priority is to editor participation
17:12:16 [npdoty]
-> http://www.cpdpconferences.org/, the concurrent privacy conference in Brussels
17:12:37 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Competing local Privacy Conference the same week
17:13:12 [WileyS]
Aleecia: That's where we stand for now on the next f2f meeting
17:13:30 [WileyS]
...Next Agenda Item: Traffic Protection Lists
17:13:40 [WileyS]
...some of you may be suprised this back on the agenda
17:13:44 [ileana]
ileana has joined #dnt
17:14:06 [tlr]
tlr has joined #dnt
17:14:14 [npdoty]
I wouldn't say "most" but it's definitely prominently present in the charter
17:14:15 [WileyS]
...history: initiated some of this discussion. No concensus here as of yet. Remains in limbo
17:14:28 [WileyS]
...starting to work through issues on whether we're going to move forward on this or not.
17:15:18 [WileyS]
...have 2 proposed editors who will be starting a strawman proposal outside of the W3C space (GetHub?)
17:15:28 [npdoty]
s/GetHub?/github/
17:15:29 [efelten]
s/GetHub/github/
17:16:08 [WileyS]
...Github is a revision tracking tool - this is where they will start
17:16:17 [npdoty]
https://github.com/ hosting of a distributed version control system
17:16:32 [WileyS]
...Two browser companies are going to move forward on this with or without the W3C
17:17:38 [aleecia]
q?
17:17:39 [npdoty]
"with or without the W3C" might be a little strong, just that editors from those companies have started drafting
17:18:07 [WileyS]
direct quote
17:19:02 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Spending quality time over Thanksgiving reviewing the mailing list to make sure strings are appropriately attributed to the correct Issue number
17:19:32 [npdoty]
Zakim, take up agendum 6
17:19:32 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Coming soon: writing assignments for open issues" taken up [from aleecia]
17:19:49 [WileyS]
...Will be asking people to take writting assignments for Open and non-assigned Issues
17:20:32 [WileyS]
...Rough-cut, not expected to be perfect, complete in 2 weeks -- will then ask editors to take 2nd pass
17:20:59 [WileyS]
...A couple issues that I believe need to be taken on by the group (such as site-specific exemption)
17:21:33 [WileyS]
...start moving more quickly on items where we have sensible starting points immediately
17:21:44 [aleecia]
q?
17:22:08 [WileyS]
Aleecia: We will also have a template as a starting point
17:22:29 [WileyS]
...overview, specifications language, examples
17:22:49 [WileyS]
...With nothing futher on that, moving right along to Issue-19
17:22:51 [npdoty]
Zakim, take up agendum 7
17:22:51 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Issue-19: Data collection / Data use (3rd party)" taken up [from aleecia]
17:22:59 [WileyS]
...Around data collection and use by 3rd parties
17:23:11 [npdoty]
issue-19?
17:23:11 [trackbot]
ISSUE-19 -- Data collection / Data use (3rd party) -- raised
17:23:11 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/19
17:23:17 [WileyS]
...Spoken a great deal about 3rd parties
17:23:24 [Zakim]
- +1.206.619.aaii
17:23:29 [jmayer]
+q
17:23:38 [WileyS]
...How should a 3rd party respond to a DNT signal?
17:23:40 [tl]
q+
17:23:47 [aleecia]
ack jmayer
17:24:15 [aleecia]
s/3rd parties/1st parties
17:24:35 [aleecia]
ack tl
17:24:40 [WileyS]
JMayer: I think the sensible approach and has some buy-in around the table and start at 3rd parties can not collect or use anything and then back-into exceptions where collection/use is allowable
17:24:43 [WileyS]
+q
17:25:03 [johnsimpson]
+q
17:25:10 [WileyS]
Tom: Agrees with Jonathan. Starting with a "do nothing" and then starting adding back in.
17:25:15 [johnsimpson]
zakim, unmute me
17:25:15 [Zakim]
johnsimpson should no longer be muted
17:25:40 [aleecia]
ack WileyS
17:26:11 [tl]
q+
17:26:19 [justin]
How is that different from what jmayer said?
17:26:45 [npdoty]
also sounded like agreement to me
17:26:56 [NinjaMarnau]
q+
17:27:20 [npdoty]
WileyS: rather than taking everything off from the start, the definition should be don't do anything except for certain categories
17:27:38 [npdoty]
... and then later describe specific exemptions for those categories in more detail
17:27:56 [rvaneijk]
rvaneijk has joined #dnt
17:28:05 [npdoty]
... agree with jmayer and tl in some ways, just don't want it to start with "Don't collect full stop"
17:28:19 [WileyS]
Thank you Nick
17:28:26 [tl]
WileyS, i think we agree
17:28:34 [npdoty]
... something like 'don't collect except for operational and security purposes' and then later detail those
17:28:39 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
17:28:46 [jmayer]
+q
17:29:04 [rvaneijk]
Zakim, +[IPcaller.a] is rvaneijk
17:29:04 [Zakim]
sorry, rvaneijk, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller.a]'
17:29:13 [NinjaMarnau]
I would suggest "must not" rather than "should not"
17:29:20 [Frank]
Concerned about a broad don't do anything, except
17:29:24 [npdoty]
Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is rvaneijk
17:29:24 [Zakim]
+rvaneijk; got it
17:29:31 [Frank]
Think there are broad categories of things that will be allowed
17:29:32 [tl]
we just quibble about how much work the initial drafter is meant to do
17:29:59 [Zakim]
- +1.805.418.aall
17:30:49 [aleecia]
q?
17:31:01 [aleecia]
ack johnsimpson
17:31:01 [WileyS]
Issue: We're not sure where the exceptions should be and ensure they are categorically captured in the base 3rd party prohibition statement.
17:31:06 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-103 - We're not sure where the exceptions should be and ensure they are categorically captured in the base 3rd party prohibition statement. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/103/edit .
17:31:27 [WileyS]
JohnSimpson: There should be no 3rd party exceptions
17:31:49 [WileyS]
Aleecia: We can discuss this with each exceptions
17:32:10 [WileyS]
...Suspect you will find some of these to be reasonable. If you don't support them be there to convey why you don't.
17:32:13 [NinjaMarnau]
q-
17:32:19 [WileyS]
JohnSimpson: He will do that.
17:32:33 [johnsimpson]
zakim, mute me
17:32:35 [Zakim]
johnsimpson should now be muted
17:32:53 [WileyS]
DavidW: Likes the approach that Shane and Aleecia have landed upon. What we're starting to do at this point we're defining "Tracking".
17:33:03 [aleecia]
q?
17:33:12 [WileyS]
...Anxious to get to the specifics
17:33:25 [aleecia]
ack tl
17:33:27 [Jules]
Jules has joined #dnt
17:33:38 [WileyS]
Aleecia: We may agree to disagree in a few philosophical areas but looking forward to figuring this out
17:33:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.308.aarr
17:34:06 [WileyS]
Tom: Largely agree with Shane and feels its more of an editorial task. Generally feels we're in agreement
17:34:06 [Zakim]
- +1.650.862.aaoo
17:34:09 [aleecia]
ack jmayer
17:34:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.263.aass
17:34:56 [ksmith]
ksmith has joined #DNT
17:35:55 [WileyS]
jmayer: If what we're talking about is pulling exception list items then he's okay with it.
17:36:19 [efelten]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:36:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aleecia, efelten, WileyS, NinjaMarnau, johnsimpson (muted), +1.206.369.aacc, dwainberg, tl, carmenb, npdoty, dsriedel (muted), +1.212.631.aagg, joanne,
17:36:22 [Zakim]
... [IPcaller] (muted), Justin, +1.917.349.aajj, alex (muted), +1.949.573.aakk, [Mozilla], Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath, +1.647.274.aamm, jmayer, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a],
17:36:27 [Zakim]
... ??P44, +1.425.281.aapp, +1.646.654.aaqq, rvaneijk, +1.650.308.aarr, +1.202.263.aass
17:36:29 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has sidstamm
17:36:29 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has BrianTs
17:36:32 [WileyS]
WIleyS: Not looking to pull a fast one and would position langauge such that categories are only referred to and the specifics must stand on their own in the detailed text.
17:36:36 [aleecia]
q?
17:36:49 [WileyS]
Aleecia: I think we have a good starting point on 3rd parties.
17:37:31 [WileyS]
...I think a good starting point is to add this points to the Issue (forcable assigned to Shane)
17:37:55 [WileyS]
All yours Jonathan. :-)
17:38:35 [WileyS]
Aleecia: Thank you all for making the call. Happy to keep it short before Thanksgiving. Coming back to 1st parties on the next call - and trying to get that hammered out.
17:38:38 [Zakim]
- +1.202.263.aass
17:38:40 [Zakim]
-dwainberg
17:38:41 [Zakim]
- +1.917.349.aajj
17:38:42 [Zakim]
- +1.212.631.aagg
17:38:44 [Zakim]
-efelten
17:38:45 [Zakim]
-[Mozilla]
17:38:45 [npdoty]
Happy Thanksgiving!
17:38:46 [Zakim]
- +1.650.308.aarr
17:38:46 [Zakim]
-joanne
17:38:46 [Zakim]
-johnsimpson
17:38:47 [Zakim]
- +1.647.274.aamm
17:38:49 [Zakim]
- +1.206.369.aacc
17:38:50 [WileyS]
...Will work on exemptions in the meantime via the mailing list
17:38:51 [Zakim]
-NinjaMarnau
17:38:53 [Zakim]
- +1.646.654.aaqq
17:38:53 [sidstamm]
thanks aleecia!
17:38:55 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
17:38:57 [Zakim]
-jmayer
17:38:57 [aleecia]
Thank you all for making the call
17:38:59 [Zakim]
- +1.425.281.aapp
17:39:01 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
17:39:02 [ksmith]
ksmith has left #DNT
17:39:03 [Zakim]
-Justin
17:39:05 [Zakim]
-carmenb
17:39:05 [johnsimpson]
thanks
17:39:07 [Zakim]
-Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath
17:39:09 [Zakim]
-alex
17:39:11 [Zakim]
-rvaneijk
17:39:11 [johnsimpson]
johnsimpson has left #dnt
17:39:14 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
17:39:15 [Zakim]
-npdoty
17:39:16 [jmayer]
ACTION: jmayer to Draft high-level text on third-party responsibilities by next Monday
17:39:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-38 - Draft high-level text on third-party responsibilities by next Monday [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2011-11-30].
17:39:22 [Zakim]
- +1.949.573.aakk
17:39:24 [Zakim]
-??P44
17:39:29 [dsriedel]
\quit
17:39:39 [npdoty]
trackbot, end meeting
17:39:39 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:39:39 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been aleecia, efelten, +1.408.349.aaaa, +49.431.98.aabb, WileyS, johnsimpson, NinjaMarnau, +1.206.369.aacc, +1.207.619.aadd, +1.609.981.aaee,
17:39:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:39:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
17:39:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-actions.rdf :
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: 34 to Jonathan and Tom have been working on this. Could either of you comment on how much longer needed? [1]
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-irc#T17-05-17
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jmayer to Draft high-level text on third-party responsibilities by next Monday [2]
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-irc#T17-39-16
17:39:42 [Zakim]
... +1.202.629.aaff, npdoty, dsriedel, +1.212.631.aagg, +1.916.641.aahh, tl, [IPcaller], Justin, dwainberg, carmenb, +1.206.619.aaii, +1.917.349.aajj, alex, +1.949.573.aakk,
17:39:46 [Zakim]
... sidstamm, Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath, joanne, +1.805.418.aall, +1.647.274.aamm, +1.773.929.aann, jmayer, BrianTs, [Microsoft], +1.650.862.aaoo, +1.425.281.aapp,
17:39:48 [Zakim]
... +1.646.654.aaqq, rvaneijk, +1.650.308.aarr, +1.202.263.aass
17:39:50 [aleecia]
thanks, Nick!