IRC log of css on 2011-11-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:19:13 [RRSAgent]
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16:19:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:19:18 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:19:18 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 41 minutes
16:19:22 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:25:04 [Bert]
Glazou, do you know if there is something like a SelectORacle in French?
16:25:17 [glazou]
Bert: euuuh
16:25:28 [glazou]
something "reading" a selector in french?
16:25:52 [glazou]
I don't think so
16:25:53 [Bert]
Translating a CSS selector into plain French
16:26:16 [glazou]
yeah, I have one in my CSS Editor add-on to bluegriffon, not sure it's localized
16:26:28 [glazou]
but I don't think emeyer ever had translations for his tool
16:26:29 [Bert]
"div p selects every P that is a child of a DIV" but in French.
16:26:34 [glazou]
yes yes
16:26:58 [Bert]
In BlueGriffon? Ah, nice!
16:27:04 [glazou]
16:52:21 [divya]
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16:55:13 [glazou]
Regrets: rossen, johnjansen, vhardy, edward o'connor, bradk
16:56:57 [glazou]
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16:58:30 [antonp]
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16:58:35 [florian]
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16:59:07 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:59:11 [Zakim]
16:59:12 [Zakim]
16:59:14 [Zakim]
16:59:20 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P16 is me
16:59:20 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:59:21 [florian]
Zakim, I am ??P16
16:59:21 [Zakim]
sorry, florian, I do not see a party named '??P16'
16:59:43 [Zakim]
17:00:07 [Zakim]
17:00:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.552.aaaa
17:00:22 [florian]
Zakim, I am +[IPcaller]
17:00:22 [Zakim]
sorry, florian, I do not see a party named '+[IPcaller]'
17:00:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aabb
17:00:27 [divya]
Zakim, aaaa is me
17:00:28 [Zakim]
+divya; got it
17:00:28 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
17:00:29 [florian]
Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
17:00:29 [Zakim]
ok, florian, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
17:00:39 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: divya (20%), [IPcaller] (34%)
17:00:47 [dbaron]
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17:01:06 [Zakim]
17:01:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.550.aacc
17:01:19 [stearns]
zakim, aacc is me
17:01:19 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
17:01:41 [kimberly]
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17:01:45 [Zakim]
17:02:05 [Zakim]
17:02:14 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
17:02:14 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
17:02:15 [sylvaing]
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17:02:31 [sylvaing]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, antonp, [IPcaller], divya, +1.206.324.aabb, kimberly, stearns, SteveZ, dbaron
17:02:41 [sylvaing]
Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
17:02:43 [Zakim]
17:02:46 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
17:03:47 [ericm]
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17:03:47 [Zakim]
17:04:00 [danielweck]
danielweck has joined #css
17:04:07 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P36 is Bert
17:04:07 [Zakim]
+Bert; got it
17:05:19 [cesar]
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17:06:17 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
17:06:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, antonp, [IPcaller], divya, sylvaing, kimberly, stearns, SteveZ, dbaron, plinss, Bert
17:06:19 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cesar, danielweck, ericm, sylvaing, kimberly, dbaron, oyvind, florian, antonp, glazou, divya, RRSAgent, Zakim, kojiishi, ben, karl, stearns, miketaylr, danielfilho,
17:06:23 [Zakim]
... drublic, brianman, arronei_, shepazu, rworth, anne, plinss, Bert, TabAtkins, paul_irish, brianman_, dglazkov, hober, fantasai, gsnedders, krijnh, Hixie, trackbot, CSSWG_LogBot,
17:06:25 [Zakim]
... pjrm, ed
17:06:32 [glazou]
ScribeNick: divya
17:06:48 [Zakim]
+ +050000aadd
17:07:08 [dbaron]
Zakim, aadd is cesar
17:07:08 [Zakim]
+cesar; got it
17:07:22 [divya]
florian: I think i can handle multicol.
17:07:24 [glazou]
17:07:33 [Zakim]
17:07:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.908.580.aaee
17:07:47 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P41 is me
17:07:47 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
17:07:59 [ChrisL]
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17:08:19 [divya]
florian: we have 3 proposed behavior when you have two multicol spanners next to each other. microsoft implement b, opera implement c, current spec seems to describe c, not sure which to decide on.
17:08:41 [divya]
fantasai: kimberly and I took an action item to write a blog post about this. We are planning to do that next week.
17:08:46 [dbaron]
Zakim, aaee is fantasai
17:08:48 [Zakim]
17:08:54 [divya]
fantasai: are we planning to resolve on this this week instead?
17:08:56 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
17:09:02 [divya]
florian: i am not sure if it would give us meaningful feedback.
17:09:08 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aaff
17:09:08 [howcome]
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17:09:11 [divya]
florian: i dont think we should spend a long time on that.
17:09:32 [divya]
sylvaing: i dont think one more week would make a difference.
17:10:03 [howcome]
zakim, aaff is howcome
17:10:03 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
17:10:37 [Zakim]
17:10:42 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p45 is me
17:10:42 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
17:10:43 [divya]
glazou: probably good to defer to next week if we dont have right people in the call.
17:10:53 [stearns]
Rossen has already given regrets for next week
17:10:55 [divya]
glazou: is it okay for you florian and howcome to discuss this next week?
17:11:12 [divya]
fantasai: will write blogpost next week.
17:11:26 [divya]
glazou: will it happen before next call?
17:11:30 [divya]
fantasai: probably not.
17:11:45 [divya]
sylvaing: we should put a date to resolve it.
17:13:00 [divya]
sylvaing: it is a tricky decision. so it is fine to set a date to resolve it.
17:13:44 [divya]
glazou: we resolve in 2 weeks time
17:14:13 [divya]
TOPIC: Speech
17:14:19 [danielweck]
17:14:51 [divya]
glazou: max 20 mins for this.
17:15:32 [divya]
danielweck: not got enough feedback to determine our position on this. leave it another week and make decision next week on this issue.
17:15:40 [glazou]
issue 1 deferred
17:15:54 [divya]
issue 2, 3 is verified with wg consensus
17:16:54 [divya]
danielweck: issue 4 to 10, raised by gregory, some issues have been accepted, some are invalid. i think we can close them properly. waiting for verification of commenters report.
17:17:13 [divya]
glazou: you can put in your disposition of comments that the original commenter is unavailable at this time to verify this issue.
17:17:49 [divya]
danielweck: issue 11, 12, 13, 14 closed with wg consensus verified
17:17:58 [divya]
danielweck: 15 i need wg consensus.
17:18:42 [divya]
danielweck: introducing new feature, …something similar to fonts.
17:18:48 [divya]
danielweck: lets reject that.
17:19:00 [divya]
ChrisL: is that instead of … or in addition to.
17:19:13 [divya]
danielweck: do we have a WG resolution on it?
17:19:29 [divya]
RESOLVED: Move it to the next version
17:19:41 [divya]
danielweck: issue 16, agreement from commenter, missing WG approval.
17:20:04 [divya]
danielweck: about voice-family preserved value.
17:20:16 [divya]
fantasai: commenter asked to drop, but agreed to danielweck 's proposal to keep
17:20:27 [divya]
RESOLVED: keep the preserve value
17:20:40 [divya]
danielweck: issue 17 forcing boundaries marked it as closed invalid
17:20:47 [divya]
RESOLVED: marked invalid.
17:21:10 [divya]
danielweck: issue 18: renaming voice-stress to voice-emphasis
17:21:32 [divya]
danielweck: the commenters agree not to renaming it. do we have wg approval for not renaming it
17:21:39 [divya]
ChrisL: what is their argument for renaming it?
17:21:47 [divya]
glazou: stress seems to imply anger
17:22:11 [divya]
danielweck: i dont think it is a major issue.
17:22:16 [ChrisL]
ok so its the technical meaning of stress as opposed to the normal social meaning
17:22:20 [divya]
glazou: i have no objection myself.
17:22:45 [divya]
howcome: we shouldnt rename things for fun.
17:22:55 [ChrisL]
I think its better to keep the terms of art from the technical community
17:22:58 [divya]
ChrisL: if speech people use the term stress in a particular way we should use it the same way.
17:23:05 [divya]
RESOLVED: retained voice-stress
17:23:27 [divya]
danielweck: issue 19: robert approved our proposal.
17:23:51 [divya]
danielweck: i want to make sure he is okay with that.
17:24:07 [divya]
danielweck: i take that as an agreement with our consensus
17:24:14 [divya]
RESOLVED: no objection.
17:24:28 [divya]
danielweck: issue 20: marked as invalid as it is a remark about at-risk properties.
17:24:49 [divya]
danielweck: they would like to keep voice-balance unlike voice-duration. they agree in principle on the role of at-risk marker for this property
17:25:57 [divya]
danielweck: issue 1 is possibly contentious and possibly renaming voice-stress to emphasis.
17:26:07 [divya]
danielweck: we should have this sorted by end of year and move to CR
17:26:37 [danielweck]
Bert: okay, great.
17:26:42 [ChrisL]
17:26:44 [divya]
TOPIC: New Publications
17:26:49 [divya]
fantasai: good to resolve the publish
17:27:01 [divya]
howcome: i posted several issues that havent been put in.
17:27:28 [divya]
howcome: noting these issues to be fixed before publications
17:27:46 [divya]
howcome: i have asked for these issues to be added for months and these doesnt happen.
17:27:57 [divya]
glazou: if these issues are noted listed then is it okay for you to publish
17:27:59 [divya]
howcome: yes
17:28:04 [howcome]
17:28:21 [divya]
fantasai: the main issue seems to be several of them seem to be same issue with different wording
17:28:43 [divya]
howcome: the main thing is i am worried about adding a long list of pre-defined list without us having discussed what criteria is used for adding those.
17:28:57 [divya]
howcome: i think we should add short-cut syntax which is being discussed on www-style
17:29:17 [divya]
howcome: i think issues should be written in a non-personal way.
17:29:56 [divya]
howcome: i propose we ask tab to add issue then we resolve to publish in a week
17:30:19 [divya]
ChrisL: it couldnt be published before next week anyway
17:30:30 [divya]
howcome: is there any news on publication of drafts we resolved last week?
17:30:36 [divya]
Bert: its thanksgiving again.
17:31:04 [divya]
glazou: we release them next week
17:31:44 [divya]
RESOLVED: Ask tab to include list of issues provided by Howcome ( ) to official list of issues and publish next week
17:32:02 [glazou]
17:32:06 [divya]
glazou: requests to move from level3 to level 4, min and max
17:32:32 [divya]
dbaron: i am fine with moving it to level4
17:32:42 [divya]
fantasai: is the problem just mixing % and length?
17:32:48 [divya]
dbaron: mainly yes.
17:32:53 [divya]
fantasai: could we just forbid that?
17:33:02 [divya]
dbaron: it would be confusing and a good bit of work.
17:33:09 [divya]
glazou: it would be a large group of that feature I think.
17:33:21 [florian]
17:33:33 [divya]
RESOLVED: move min, max to level 4
17:33:34 [glazou]
17:33:48 [divya]
17:33:56 [divya]
fantasai: discussed splitting text to move it to CR
17:34:22 [divya]
fantasai: florian: has commented but nobody else
17:34:46 [divya]
stearns: i havent seen resolution of florian 's issue.
17:34:57 [stearns]
17:35:08 [glazou]
17:35:15 [divya]
RESOLVED: Deferred, for later.
17:35:23 [divya]
TOPIC: Inherit revisited
17:35:46 [divya]
?? I would like to review it but I havent had time yet.
17:36:39 [divya]
RESOLVED: Defer discussion.
17:36:52 [divya]
glazou: CSS3 animations. @keyframes at rule
17:37:05 [ChrisL]
17:37:09 [divya]
glazou: only speaking of parsing the @keyframes at rule
17:37:12 [Zakim]
17:37:25 [divya]
glazou: currently it is a prefixed so its a huge burden
17:37:33 [Zakim]
17:37:38 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P53 is me
17:37:38 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
17:37:42 [divya]
?? we are talking with unprefixing but not others.
17:38:11 [dbaron]
17:38:14 [divya]
sylvaing: how do we effectively say this is the issue in CR and not the other things in the stack
17:38:33 [dbaron]
(or maybe that was someone else... sorry?)
17:38:46 [divya]
florian: why do you think that particular bit helps a lot of people and not the rest.
17:38:59 [divya]
glazou: that rule is hard to duplicate.
17:39:05 [dbaron]
s/that/an at/
17:39:25 [divya]
glazou: you need to change the prefixes inside the keyframes too
17:39:42 [divya]
sylvaing: it is such a pain to multiple the @ rules we write js to repeat them. it is painful
17:39:52 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is speaking?
17:40:04 [Zakim]
ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: howcome (5%), SteveZ (55%), Bert (5%)
17:40:10 [divya]
florian: i support the move as well but i am not sure how we can change.
17:40:22 [divya]
Stevez: how can you test this is consistently done
17:40:38 [divya]
Stevez: i am confused how to test this instead of the others.
17:40:41 [oyvind]
I don't think that part of the spec is good enough for CR but unprefixing is another matter
17:41:14 [divya]
sylvaing: there are basic issues about the content of the rules, what do you do with the value, it is kind of awkward to just accomodate to that.
17:41:53 [oyvind]
(or maybe it is fine for CR, but it has a lot of unaddressed issues w.r.t. edge cases and error handling)
17:42:01 [Zakim]
17:42:07 [divya]
florian: for the record I am for removing prefixes, but not comfortable removing prefixes on that while simultaneously keeping on the rest.
17:42:43 [divya]
glazou: lack in the OM for keyframes. the OM for keyframes would allow defined rule for a key. not allow to retrieve key for keyframes.
17:42:51 [divya]
glazou: new readonly attribute to retrieve list of keys
17:42:58 [divya]
glazou: probably authors rely on JS
17:43:14 [divya]
glazou: the key would be a string.
17:43:26 [antonp]
(apologies; I'm having connection troubles)
17:43:33 [divya]
florian: i had asked for an extra item. can we talk a bit about that?
17:43:54 [divya]
florian: the content property in css 2.1 allows you to add images, which are added as a child of the elements
17:44:05 [divya]
florian: css3 content spec is confusingly worded.
17:44:32 [divya]
florian: if you use same syntax as css 2.1 as the behaviour would be same.
17:44:40 [divya]
florian: if you use url() you would get replaced content.
17:44:50 [divya]
florian: i am confused by 1st sentence of section 8 replaced content.
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17:45:19 [divya]
florian: it seem incompatible with what css2.1 and css3 says.
17:45:30 [divya]
dbaron: i think it is a contradition, and i proposed a rewording on the list.
17:46:03 [divya]
florian: i thought the discussion had died, so i brought it to the telecon.
17:46:09 [divya]
florian: but it came back to life.
17:46:29 [divya]
dbaron: i would be okay concluding something
17:47:51 [divya]
florian: I dont think anyone implements the switch at the moment, so we wont be breaking anything.
17:48:18 [divya]
dbaron: i think the open question is whether we are going to do fallback mechanism within value syntax, we wont want a fallback mechanism inside the property syntax
17:48:32 [divya]
fantasai: we are doing fallback in value syntax only for a certain type of content.
17:49:13 [divya]
fantasai: e.g. if you are a visual browser, here is a picture, if you are a text-only browser, here is some text.
17:49:34 [divya]
florian: i dont think you cant do what you just said the way it is currently specced
17:49:42 [divya]
florian: sorry, what you said is probably correct.
17:49:50 [fantasai]
17:50:11 [divya]
florian: i dont think we should go into full discussion on what values should be accepted by content property.
17:50:41 [divya]
florian: we should discuss this on the list then.
17:50:54 [divya]
glazou: anything else?
17:51:06 [divya]
glazou: happy thanksgiving!
17:51:11 [Zakim]
17:51:13 [Zakim]
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17:51:14 [Zakim]
17:51:15 [Zakim]
17:51:15 [Zakim]
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17:51:32 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:51:34 [Zakim]
Attendees were antonp, [IPcaller], glazou, +1.206.552.aaaa, +1.206.324.aabb, divya, kimberly, +1.206.550.aacc, stearns, SteveZ, dbaron, plinss, sylvaing, Bert, +050000aadd, cesar,
17:51:37 [Zakim]
... +1.908.580.aaee, danielweck, ChrisL, fantasai, +47.21.65.aaff, howcome, kojiishi
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22:16:55 [dholbert]
TabAtkins, ping
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22:20:32 [TabAtkins]
dholbert: pong
22:20:51 [dholbert]
TabAtkins, hi! I was wondering whether you might have an estimate of when the next rev of the flexbox ED might be out
22:21:09 [TabAtkins]
Next week!
22:21:22 [dholbert]
ah, great!
22:21:31 [TabAtkins]
Been working on Images and Lists lately, but need to get back and put in a bunch of Flexbox edits.
22:21:32 [dholbert]
excellent, thanks
22:21:37 [dholbert]
yup, gotcha
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