IRC log of ua on 2011-11-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:41:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:41:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-irc
16:41:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:41:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:41:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:41:29 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:41:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:41:30 [trackbot]
Date: 17 November 2011
17:27:37 [JAllan]
regrets+ Jan, Jeanne, Mark
17:28:03 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/
17:28:05 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html
17:28:06 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review any proposals sent to list, several to review
17:28:08 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Open issues discussion
17:34:22 [Wayne]
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17:39:41 [kford]
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17:50:05 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:50:05 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:50:07 [Zakim]
1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan]
17:50:10 [Zakim]
2. Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html [from JAllan]
17:50:13 [Zakim]
3. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan]
17:50:15 [Zakim]
4. Open issues discussion [from JAllan]
17:50:16 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:50:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-minutes.html kford
17:59:58 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:00:18 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:00:18 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
18:00:31 [kford]
zakim, who's here?
18:00:31 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I don't know what conference this is
18:00:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, kford, Wayne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
18:01:15 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:02:11 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
18:02:23 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:02:26 [mth]
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18:02:55 [KimPatch]
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18:04:57 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:04:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/" taken up [from JAllan]
18:05:28 [kford]
Survey results:
18:05:30 [kford]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results
18:05:46 [JAllan]
topic: 2.4.1 Find
18:05:57 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq1
18:07:34 [JAllan]
kf: reviewing results
18:08:15 [JAllan]
present: kim, jim, kelly, wayne, simon, greg,
18:09:02 [JAllan]
gl: leaning toward AA because of search for alternative content
18:10:37 [JAllan]
kf: gregs point about searching for text alternatives. what are thoughts
18:10:38 [Wayne]
yes
18:11:29 [JAllan]
sh: alternatives need to be searchable. I think information would be lost
18:12:23 [JAllan]
gl: if person who is blind, we have an sc to have alternative content rendered, so when they search it would show up in search. there is a work around
18:13:14 [JAllan]
sh: shouldn't make a difference.
18:13:29 [JAllan]
kim: should be an A.
18:14:21 [JAllan]
gl: every UA should be able to search for alt text
18:15:07 [JAllan]
sh: even tho alt is rendered in audio viewport, should be searchable
18:15:40 [JAllan]
kf: so if you configure UA to show alt instead of alternatives, then search should find the alt.
18:16:28 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
18:17:15 [Greg]
One option is to clarify that 2.4.1 includes "rendered content...including *rendered* text alternatives", another is to make it explicitly "rendered content...including text alternatives that may or may not be rendered in the current view".
18:17:36 [KimPatch]
I like what Kelly said -- user selected alternatives
18:18:06 [JAllan]
sh: if an audio only browser, then what can be searched. content is only rendered when spoken.
18:18:30 [JAllan]
kp: would 'user selectable alternatives' work
18:19:37 [JAllan]
sh: if a standard audio browsers, then the user would not have to select anything, and search should find it.
18:19:50 [Greg]
I'm afraid of "user selected alternatives" because it implies the UA lets the user select from, say, a mulitselect list of all the different types of supported text alternatives, which seems unwieldy.
18:21:04 [JAllan]
kf: we have other sc about the cascade to reveal other content then it would be searchable
18:21:35 [mth]
Is title attribute text included in search? Is css inserted text? Are items in a list box?
18:22:17 [JAllan]
kf: this should not be confusing and doesnt imply multiselect, it would depend on rendering modaltity and other user settings.
18:22:50 [mth]
Is text in nonselected (non active) folder tabs widgets?
18:23:01 [Greg]
"The user can perform a search within rendered content (e.g. not hidden with a style), including rendered text alternatives and rendered alternative content, for any sequence of characters from the document character set. (Level A)"
18:23:29 [JAllan]
kf: so this gets really complicated.
18:23:55 [Greg]
"The user can perform a search within rendered content (e.g. not hidden with a style), including rendered text alternatives and rendered alternative content, for any sequence of *printing* characters from the document character set. (Level A)"
18:24:31 [Greg]
"The user can perform a search within rendered content (e.g. not hidden with a style), including rendered text alternatives and rendered *generated* content, for any sequence of *printing* characters from the document character set. (Level A)"
18:24:34 [mth]
Okay, not hidden in settle. What about collapsed detail elements?
18:25:06 [kford]
I don't thik collapsed items should show up in a find at level A.
18:25:24 [mth]
C /settle/style/
18:25:36 [kford]
I think all the hidden, and other variations should be in the level aa.
18:26:35 [JAllan]
gl: "hidden" is css 'hidden', collapsed content,
18:27:07 [JAllan]
kf: if you can experience it without interaction then find should find it on level A
18:27:24 [mth]
I wonder about the details element. Behavior determined by ua I think, not style. Could be advantageous to search complex pages containing details without manually expanding each. See that as A.
18:27:38 [JAllan]
... if you have to interact, click, expand, etc, mouse over, then search should find and AA
18:28:02 [kford]
In response to Mark, I don't think a user agent has to not do this but requirment at level a doesn't have to be there.
18:28:50 [Greg]
As above: "The user can perform a search within rendered content (e.g. not hidden with a style), including rendered text alternatives and rendered *generated* content, for any sequence of *printing* characters from the document character set. (Level A)"
18:29:03 [JAllan]
ja: kelly's interaction model covers Simon's concerns
18:29:39 [JAllan]
kf: use this wording then beef up intent.
18:30:28 [JAllan]
gl: printing characters - not including tab, newline non-breaking spaces
18:31:12 [JAllan]
kf: printing characters is confusing
18:32:09 [JAllan]
kelly: can live with greg wording
18:32:11 [Greg]
Per Mark's comment, I think that having the ability t o expand all of the DETAILS elements would be very useful, and would remove the need to specifically address DETAILS in the Search SC.
18:32:20 [JAllan]
+1
18:32:31 [Wayne]
+1
18:32:41 [JAllan]
kf: any objections?
18:33:09 [KimPatch]
+1
18:33:22 [JAllan]
wd: when you turn on text alternatives, do you have option to turn off in the same session.
18:33:35 [JAllan]
ja: yes, kelly - yes
18:33:36 [mth]
+1
18:33:44 [Greg]
+1
18:33:55 [JAllan]
sh: +1
18:34:31 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to add 2.4.1 "The user can perform a search within rendered content (e.g. not hidden with a style), including rendered text alternatives and rendered *generated* content, for any sequence of *printing* characters from the document character set. (Level A)
18:34:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-663 - Add 2.4.1 "The user can perform a search within rendered content (e.g. not hidden with a style), including rendered text alternatives and rendered *generated* content, for any sequence of *printing* characters from the document character set. (Level A) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-24].
18:35:20 [kford]
Action: kford look at intent for 2.4.1 on find and ensure it clearly states goal to allow the user to find whatever the user agent is displaying e.g. covers the case where you have chosen alternatives.
18:35:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-664 - Look at intent for 2.4.1 on find and ensure it clearly states goal to allow the user to find whatever the user agent is displaying e.g. covers the case where you have chosen alternatives. [on Kelly Ford - due 2011-11-24].
18:36:54 [Greg]
Kelly does not want to add an SC about expanding collapsed trees, outlines, or details elements, nor does he want to search the hidden portions in the basic search SC.
18:37:10 [JAllan]
kp: should we have a wiki to capture these ideas.
18:37:20 [JAllan]
kf: yes we should
18:37:52 [JAllan]
... already have a wiki, just create a new page
18:38:59 [mth]
Should I be the one to add the details issue to the wiki?
18:39:53 [JAllan]
topic: 2.4.2 Find direction
18:39:55 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq2
18:41:36 [JAllan]
wiki page: uaag 3 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Thoughts_for_UAAG_3
18:41:51 [Greg]
Recommendation: 2.4.2 Find Direction: The user can search forward or backward in rendered content. (Level A)
18:42:30 [Wayne]
+1
18:42:52 [JAllan]
+1
18:43:05 [JAllan]
kp: +1
18:43:10 [JAllan]
sh: +1
18:43:20 [JAllan]
kf: objections?
18:43:47 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to add 2.4.2 Find Direction: The user can search forward or backward in rendered content. (Level A) to document
18:43:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-665 - Add 2.4.2 Find Direction: The user can search forward or backward in rendered content. (Level A) to document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-24].
18:43:57 [mth]
+1
18:44:13 [JAllan]
topic: 2.4.3 Match Found
18:44:26 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq3
18:44:48 [JAllan]
wd: we don't have anything about what you can do when you find something
18:45:09 [JAllan]
gl: don't want to be too prescriptive.
18:46:33 [JAllan]
wd: acrobat - in reflow mode, find, takes you out of reflow, highlites text, if back to reflow, then taken to where you were previously. find is useless
18:46:48 [JAllan]
gl: 2 proposed rewordings
18:47:02 [JAllan]
2.4.3 Match Found: When a search operation produces a match, the matched content is highlighted and presented within the visible area of the viewport. The user can search from the location of the match. (Level A)
18:47:04 [JAllan]
Or
18:47:06 [JAllan]
2.4.3 Match Found: When a search operation produces a match, the matched content is highlighted, the viewport is scrolled if necessary so that the matched content is within its visible area, and the user can search from the location of the match. (Level A)
18:47:34 [JAllan]
kf: like second one better
18:50:18 [JAllan]
ja: notification.
18:50:33 [Greg]
The notification is that the match is highlighted and scrolled into view, and the fact you don't get the "not found" message required by the other SC.
18:50:48 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to add 2.4.3 Match Found: When a search operation produces a match, the matched content is highlighted, the viewport is scrolled if necessary so that the matched content is within its visible area, and the user can search from the location of the match. (Level A)
18:50:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-666 - Add 2.4.3 Match Found: When a search operation produces a match, the matched content is highlighted, the viewport is scrolled if necessary so that the matched content is within its visible area, and the user can search from the location of the match. (Level A) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-24].
18:51:13 [JAllan]
topic: 2.4.4 Alert on No Match
18:51:27 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq4
18:51:33 [mth]
Like the second one but concerned about audio browsers and the use of "visible" area.
18:51:37 [JAllan]
rewordings
18:51:51 [JAllan]
2.4.4 Notification at End of Find: The user can be notified when a search reaches the upper or lower extent of the search range, regardless of whether the search will continue beyond that range or from the other extent. (Level A)
18:52:29 [JAllan]
2.4.4 The user is notified when there is no match and when starting the search over from the beginning of content. (Level A)
18:52:43 [JAllan]
discussion of wordings
18:53:57 [JAllan]
wd: add 'in the direction of the search'
18:54:26 [JAllan]
kp: what about wrapping. need to clear
18:54:47 [JAllan]
kp: starting search over - from top of content
18:55:03 [JAllan]
gl: starting search over - returning to the dialog box
18:55:31 [JAllan]
kf: make simple. User is notified if no match
18:56:12 [JAllan]
gl: no, because some will just wrap to the top without informing user, and they get confused.
18:56:50 [JAllan]
kp: if in middle of doc and search, assume searching from point of regard. but search may find stuff above. confusing
18:57:13 [Wayne]
The user is notified when the beginning or end of contend is reached without finding a match.
18:57:20 [JAllan]
kf: user is notified of no more or when continuing from begining or end of content
18:58:33 [JAllan]
kf: are we combining 2 things.
18:58:36 [Greg]
The user *can be* notified when a search reaches the beginning or end of the search range, regardless of whether the search will continue or wrap.
18:58:47 [JAllan]
first user notified when no match.
18:59:06 [JAllan]
next search from top or bottom
18:59:11 [Greg]
The user can be notified when a search reaches the beginning or end of the content or selection, regardless of whether the search will continue or wrap.
18:59:47 [JAllan]
kf: alert on continuing searching
19:00:30 [Greg]
2.4.4 Notification at End of Find: The user can be notified when a search reaches the beginning or end of the content or selection, regardless of whether the search will continue or wrap.
19:01:38 [Greg]
"Notification After Find"?
19:01:48 [JAllan]
Notifications for Find
19:02:12 [JAllan]
kf: we have Match Found, need Match Not Found
19:03:35 [JAllan]
kf: Match Not Found: The user is notified when there is no match.
19:04:38 [KimPatch]
Alert on no match and wrap: The user is notified when there is no match. The user is notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content. (Level A)
19:05:08 [Greg]
Here was mine again: 2.4.4 Notification at End of Find: The user can be notified when a search reaches the beginning or end of the content or selection, regardless of whether the search will continue or wrap.
19:05:50 [JAllan]
ja: +1 to Kims wording
19:06:28 [Greg]
2.4.4 No Match: The user can be notified when a search reaches the beginning or end of the content being searched, regardless of whether the search will continue or wrap.
19:06:51 [JAllan]
wd: how to we define search. in 2.4.2 is direction included. entire file, or from current point down
19:07:20 [JAllan]
... could add definition to .2.4.2
19:07:25 [mth]
+1 to Kim's
19:08:13 [JAllan]
user can define a search forward or backward to beginning or end of document from current focus point.
19:08:34 [JAllan]
wd: looking for word, in a direction, and an interval in the document
19:09:37 [JAllan]
wd: need to introduce concept of interval or range. current point down
19:10:14 [JAllan]
kp: getting complicated/ sometimes want to search till I find it, sometimes only search in a directions.
19:10:24 [JAllan]
... fine with eithers language.
19:10:47 [JAllan]
kf: +1 to kim's wording
19:10:59 [JAllan]
gl: is should be can be
19:11:47 [JAllan]
... need word "search" in sc. Match does not imply search
19:12:06 [JAllan]
kf: like kim's better
19:13:00 [JAllan]
2.4.4 No Match: The user is notified when there is no match. The user is notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content.
19:14:10 [JAllan]
2.4.4 Alert on Wrap or No Match: The user is notified when there is no match. The user is notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content.
19:15:25 [Greg]
The reason I don't want to say "is notified" is that I don't want to forbid the user agent from providing a user option to turn off the notification.
19:15:47 [Greg]
But we want to make it clear that the choice is the user's, not the user agent's.
19:16:29 [sharper]
+1 for Kim
19:16:34 [JAllan]
2.4.4 Alert on Wrap or No Match: The user can be notified when there is no match. The user can be notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content.
19:16:35 [Wayne]
Kim +1
19:16:37 [KimPatch]
Alert on Wrap or No Match: The user the user can be notified when there is no match. The user can be notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content. (Level A)
19:16:58 [Greg]
"User can get notified" implies the user choice whereas "user can be notified" could be read as user agent choice.
19:17:15 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to add 2.4.4 Alert on Wrap or No Match: The user can be notified when there is no match. The user can be notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content.
19:17:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-667 - Add 2.4.4 Alert on Wrap or No Match: The user can be notified when there is no match. The user can be notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-24].
19:17:36 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
19:17:36 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
19:17:37 [Zakim]
1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan]
19:17:39 [mth]
The user has the option to receive notifications...
19:17:40 [Zakim]
2. Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html [from JAllan]
19:17:42 [Zakim]
3. Review any proposals sent to list, several to review [from JAllan]
19:17:44 [Zakim]
4. Open issues discussion [from JAllan]
19:18:02 [Greg]
Beginning or end of "content being searched" would be better than just "content", covering cases where the search is not to the end of the document (e.g. search within a section or selection).
19:19:17 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 2
19:19:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html" taken up [from JAllan]
19:19:42 [JAllan]
kf: speak up if you want a particular item to write on
19:20:10 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
19:20:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Assign owners for SC needing attention http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0071.html, closed
19:20:12 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:20:14 [Zakim]
1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ [from JAllan]
19:21:16 [JAllan]
kp: mapping IOS gestures to a single page - Assistive Touch - a11y options on iPhone
19:21:54 [kford]
Article on assistive touch http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/apples-assistivetouch-helps-the-disabled-use-a-smartphone/
19:22:11 [JAllan]
kf: it is exactly what we are talking about, remapping commands to a different input method.
19:22:46 [JAllan]
kp: make every thing work with single touch, and change shortcuts. user defined gestures.
19:23:12 [mth]
Does anyone know if apple has research evidence for design of assistive touch?
19:23:17 [JAllan]
topic: UA mobile
19:23:36 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Applying_UAAG_to_Mobile_Phones
19:24:31 [JAllan]
W3 and WAI are wanting something from UAWG
19:24:45 [JAllan]
kp: modality independent interface
19:25:46 [mth]
Modality independence of core UAAG level A controls
19:26:25 [JAllan]
UAWG in next 2 weeks clean up wiki to more fully express how UA does or does not address mobile
19:26:58 [sharper]
q+
19:27:13 [JAllan]
kp: good exercise to use jim's example and see what applies
19:29:10 [JAllan]
sh: we defined diffeent levels of UA, desktop, plugins, extensions, web based. there should be some drop down to the OS level. we need to think about this for levels of conformity. Platform, application, etc.
19:31:00 [JAllan]
kf: concern is that there is a need for some guidance, if UAWG and others do not provide others may just create
19:31:33 [mth]
+1 to Kelly
19:32:14 [JAllan]
wd: there are barriers
19:32:47 [JAllan]
kf: need to explain the implications of not complying with UAAG
19:33:58 [kford]
Mark, In answer to your question on assistive touch, I don't know.
19:34:17 [mth]
For a mobile device can a great a11y user experience be created that is not in compliance with UAAG?
19:34:54 [JAllan]
kf: we have an action to add to document. If you have objections, get support, write to list
19:34:54 [kford]
Survey stopped at no match, pick up from there.
19:35:26 [JAllan]
pick up at 2.4.5
19:36:32 [JAllan]
kf: please look at SC list to review. Please review the proposals on the list. Please review on Web Mobile wiki
19:37:02 [sharper]
sharper has left #ua
19:37:19 [JAllan]
all happy thanksgiving
19:37:30 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:38:37 [mth]
Bye
19:40:17 [JAllan]
present+ Mark (IRC)
19:40:24 [JAllan]
regrets-Mark
19:40:36 [JAllan]
chair: KellyFord, JimAllan
19:40:44 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:41:10 [JAllan]
rrsagent please part
19:41:17 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-actions.rdf :
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 2.4.1 "The user can perform a search within rendered content (e.g. not hidden with a style), including rendered text alternatives and rendered *generated* content, for any sequence of *printing* characters from the document character set. (Level A) [1]
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-irc#T18-34-31
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford look at intent for 2.4.1 on find and ensure it clearly states goal to allow the user to find whatever the user agent is displaying e.g. covers the case where you have chosen alternatives. [2]
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-irc#T18-35-20
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 2.4.2 Find Direction: The user can search forward or backward in rendered content. (Level A) to document [3]
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-irc#T18-43-47
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 2.4.3 Match Found: When a search operation produces a match, the matched content is highlighted, the viewport is scrolled if necessary so that the matched content is within its visible area, and the user can search from the location of the match. (Level A) [4]
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-irc#T18-50-48
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 2.4.4 Alert on Wrap or No Match: The user can be notified when there is no match. The user can be notified when the search continues from the beginning or end of content. [5]
19:41:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-ua-irc#T19-17-15