IRC log of svg on 2011-11-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:02:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
21:02:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:02:12 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
21:02:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
21:02:14 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
21:02:14 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM already started
21:02:15 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
21:02:15 [trackbot]
Date: 17 November 2011
21:03:08 [heycam]
ed, not going to call in today, sorry
21:03:56 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.980.5.aabb
21:04:19 [cyril]
zakim, aabb is me
21:04:19 [Zakim]
+cyril; got it
21:05:09 [Zakim]
+ +
21:05:39 [cyril]
zakim, aacc is Tav
21:05:39 [Zakim]
+Tav; got it
21:07:27 [Tav]
it took me two tries
21:09:24 [Zakim]
21:09:33 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
21:09:34 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
21:10:06 [ed]
21:15:38 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #svg
21:16:44 [cyril]
21:17:21 [cyril]
doug, are you calling in?
21:17:41 [shepazu]
oh, I could
21:17:56 [shepazu]
when is it? now?
21:18:01 [cyril]
21:21:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.824.aadd
21:22:33 [ed]
topic: new telcon time
21:24:20 [ed]
21:25:06 [ed]
so the proposal is 19.00 UTC
21:25:19 [cyril]
heycam, are you ok with 7am ?
21:25:29 [heycam]
cyril, yes, that's ok
21:25:39 [Zakim]
- +1.408.543.aaaa
21:26:35 [ed]
RESOLVED: we'll move the weekly telcon to 19.00 UTC (was 20.00 UTC)
21:28:11 [ed]
topic: SVG2 editing
21:28:19 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
21:28:20 [Tav]
21:28:44 [ed]
TB: i'm proposing some changes based on the existing style
21:29:09 [ed]
... the structure is merged, taking the best of both parts
21:30:39 [ed]
... the page shows what I'm proposing
21:32:24 [ed]
... suggested new structure is easier to edit and read
21:33:47 [ed]
... old markup is using tables with deprecated attributes
21:35:11 [ed]
... more appropriate to use css for styling it, proposal uses a dl
21:35:37 [ed]
... what do you think?
21:35:52 [ed]
CC: in the gradient syntax example i like what we had before
21:36:11 [ed]
... in the new style we don't know if userSpaceOnUse is allowed
21:36:43 [ed]
DS: i prefer simplicity where possible
21:37:00 [ed]
... i'd like the markup to have classes so that it can be extracted easily
21:37:16 [ed]
... to enable reuse for documentation
21:37:57 [ed]
TB: i'm using classes in the proposal
21:38:30 [ed]
DS: would prefer more, just to make it easy to pull the data out
21:38:44 [ed]
... would like each dd to be class=value or class=propvalue
21:39:02 [ed]
... just want to make sure it's easy to extract
21:40:49 [ed]
TB: we have three appendices, they should be generated by script not handedited
21:41:08 [ed]
ED: i think they are generated already by the buildscripts
21:41:22 [cyril]
heycam, are the attribute, property and element tables generated automatically in SVG 1.1 2nd ed ?
21:41:27 [ed]
TB: but they are in master too, why?
21:41:44 [heycam]
cyril, property index no, element/attribute tables yes
21:42:57 [ed]
for 1.2T the property index is generated too though, right? so not using the exact same setup
21:43:06 [ed]
21:44:03 [ed]
CC: you've tried to reuse the property table, also for attributes
21:44:23 [ed]
... do we need the animatable?
21:44:36 [ed]
TB: we had that before
21:44:49 [heycam]
ed, it was, using robin's scripts
21:45:01 [ed]
CC: no notion of initial value for attributes, we resolved to call them lacuna value
21:45:06 [heycam]
ed, the SVG 1.1 property table includes more information than the 1.2T one though
21:45:25 [heycam]
shepazu, don't forget to let me know what the issue with the table generation scripts are for the integration spec
21:45:56 [ed]
DS: we should keep the lacuna value definition
21:46:05 [ed]
... and not call it something else
21:46:42 [cyril]
21:46:45 [ed]
TB: we could link to the definition
21:47:07 [ed]
... that works for me
21:48:33 [ed]
ED: i think it's a good effort, the markup in 1.1 in some cases isn't great
21:49:28 [ed]
TB: ok, so I can go ahead and apply it to the pservers.html chapter and we can see how that looks
21:50:12 [Tav]
21:50:12 [cyril]
21:50:20 [ed]
ED: your mail mentioned an authoring guide...
21:50:51 [ed]
TB: i've merged what was on the wiki before with my suggestions
21:51:14 [ed]
... explaining how it works, and the most important files
21:51:56 [ed]
... lists how-tos for images, figures, examples etc
21:52:09 [ed]
... how to add an element (the places you need to edit for adding one)
21:52:45 [ed]
CC: you say that eltindex.html, but that's generated?
21:53:28 [ed]
TB: right, that file shouldn't be needed
21:53:56 [ed]
... i've not yet got to adding DOM interfaces
21:54:31 [ed]
... comments?
21:54:49 [ed]
CC: what's the differnce between notes and annotations, who's the target audience?
21:57:03 [Zakim]
21:57:14 [ed]
ED: you mention moving towards html5 in the spec, do you still want to keep the document xml-wellformed?
21:57:38 [Zakim]
21:57:40 [ed]
TB: yes, the edited version needs to be that since it contains custom markup
21:58:26 [pdengler]
pdengler has joined #svg
21:58:43 [ed]
DS: we could generate two serializations
21:59:07 [ed]
TB: yes, the XSL could output that
21:59:49 [pdengler]
pdengler has joined #svg
22:00:05 [ed]
... the only thing i found that there can't be a comment before the doctype, IE goes into quirksmode
22:00:16 [Zakim]
22:00:25 [ed]
... validates as html5
22:02:28 [ed]
ED: ok, so you don't want to move to using HTML5 for the master document
22:02:56 [ed]
TB: right, i don't think we can
22:03:50 [ed]
TB: want feedback on the editing proposals
22:04:11 [ed]
Topic: svg2 requirements
22:04:13 [ed]
22:04:58 [ed]
22:05:13 [ed]
TB: this is something with css right?
22:05:27 [ed]
... it's going to be in css
22:05:36 [cyril]
zakim, pointer
22:05:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pointer', cyril
22:05:43 [ed]
CC: i don't know
22:05:43 [cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer
22:05:43 [RRSAgent]
22:06:21 [ed]
TB: i would really like to see this in, it's very useful
22:06:29 [ed]
... requested alot
22:06:52 [ed]
... inkscape saves in the 1.2 full markup format, and people get caught by it
22:07:15 [ed]
CC: i remember objections from the css group when this was added to 1.2
22:07:31 [ed]
TB: with exclusions and regions css is adding the same functionality
22:08:15 [ed]
CC: so we should investigate if those could work in/with svg, maybe a simplified version
22:09:33 [ed]
DS: we should keep the dialog open on this
22:09:51 [ed]
... so talk to vincent about it
22:10:08 [ed]
CC: but we agree on the requirement?
22:10:13 [ed]
DS: yes
22:10:21 [stearns]
(nit) - exclusions is the shape. Regions isn't involved
22:10:22 [ed]
TB: sounds good
22:11:56 [ed]
DS: one part is textwrapping, and the other is the more general exclusions
22:13:02 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 will require automatic textwrapping compatible with css
22:14:10 [ed]
s/textwrapping/textwrapping in arbitrary shapes/
22:14:36 [ed]
22:15:10 [ed]
CC: the second thing there, isn't that glyph warping?
22:15:13 [ed]
ED: i think so
22:15:25 [ed]
CC: we've resolved on that already
22:16:10 [ed]
... i'll move that bulletpoint
22:16:37 [ed]
ED: the first bulletpoint isn't that something we already have in 1.1?
22:16:52 [ed]
TB: would be nice if there was some more explanation here
22:17:26 [ed]
ED: ok, so let's leave that until we have more details
22:17:45 [ed]
22:18:09 [ed]
TB: isn't there a mapping TF that this could be decided by?
22:19:05 [ed]
DS: well, just because they have that usecase doesn't mean everyone else does it the same... dataviz relies on it
22:19:27 [ed]
CC: is it possible to designa model that suits everyone?
22:19:38 [ed]
DS: sceptic?
22:20:01 [ed]
CC: i might want my label to be placed in the middleof a country, or outside on the left...
22:20:24 [ed]
TB: i htink it's more about making labels not end up on top each other
22:20:35 [ed]
DS: then we're getting into graph theory
22:20:43 [ed]
TB: would like to see a complete proposal
22:20:50 [ed]
... don't think it's an easy problem
22:21:24 [ed]
DS: svg aslready has other wasy of drawing stuff, but if it's not easy to use then that's not good
22:22:03 [ed]
... even if it's a hard problem if it enables people to make content easier that's good
22:22:45 [ed]
RESOLUTION: we need a more concrete proposal before we can consider label placement
22:23:10 [ed]
22:23:18 [ed]
TB: yes
22:23:27 [ed]
... it's not welldefined right now
22:23:31 [ed]
ED: i agree
22:23:57 [ed]
... would like to see that clarified
22:25:34 [ed]
... what Israel and others were asking for is more complex than what Opera implements today
22:26:00 [ed]
RESOLUTION: we will clarify method=stretch on textPath elements
22:26:26 [ed]
22:27:15 [ed]
TB: and if the element is flipped upside down you want it to render rightside up?
22:27:24 [ed]
ED: yes I think that's the idea
22:27:41 [ed]
CC: could be solved if we had transformBehaviour=pinned on text
22:28:55 [ed]
ED: i think it's not a very big feature, but the req as such is fine with me
22:29:43 [ed]
RESOLUTION: svg2 will have a way to specify flip-invariant text
22:30:33 [Zakim]
22:30:34 [Zakim]
22:30:36 [Zakim]
22:30:39 [Zakim]
- +1.919.824.aadd
22:30:44 [ed]
trackbot, end telcon
22:30:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
22:30:44 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.543.aaaa, +61.2.980.5.aabb, cyril, +, Tav, [IPcaller], ed, +1.919.824.aadd, [Microsoft]
22:30:45 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:30:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
22:30:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
22:30:46 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items