14:52:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:52:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-eval-irc
14:52:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
14:52:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
14:52:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:45 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:52:45 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2011
14:53:04 <houtepen> houtepen has joined #eval
14:54:06 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
14:54:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:54:29 <vivienne> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:54:29 <Zakim> +vivienne; got it
14:55:21 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaaa
14:55:29 <houtepen> zakim, aaaa is me
14:55:30 <Zakim> +houtepen; got it
14:56:19 <houtepen> zakim, mute me
14:56:19 <Zakim> houtepen should now be muted
14:56:31 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:56:31 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
14:57:01 <richard> richard has joined #eval
14:57:22 <Zakim> + +49.404.318.aabb
14:57:49 <Detlev> zakim, aabb is me
14:57:50 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
14:57:52 <AmyChen> AmyChen has joined #eval
14:57:58 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:57:58 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:58:41 <Zakim> + +1.510.522.aacc
14:58:48 <AmyChen> zakim, aacc is me
14:58:48 <Zakim> +AmyChen; got it
14:58:53 <AmyChen> zakim, mute me
14:58:53 <Zakim> AmyChen should now be muted
14:58:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:58:55 <dboudreau> dboudreau has joined #eval
14:59:12 <dboudreau> hello all
14:59:25 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:59:28 <Detlev> hi
14:59:34 <vivienne> hi
14:59:42 <Zakim> +Shadi
14:59:50 <Detlev> Zakim, unmute me
14:59:50 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
14:59:50 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see vivienne (muted), houtepen (muted), Detlev, AmyChen (muted), [IPcaller], Shadi
14:59:52 <houtepen> hi
15:00:01 <vivienne> zakim, unmute me
15:00:02 <Zakim> + +1.514.312.aadd
15:00:06 <Zakim> vivienne should no longer be muted
15:00:06 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:00:13 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:00:22 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaee
15:00:22 <dboudreau> zakim, aadd is dboudreau
15:00:26 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:00:36 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:00:43 <Zakim> +dboudreau; got it
15:01:10 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
15:01:12 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is Richard
15:01:27 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
15:01:31 <Zakim> +Richard; got it
15:01:56 <houtepen> ack me
15:02:46 <shadi> scribe: houtepen
15:02:57 <houtepen> zakim, mute me
15:02:57 <Zakim> houtepen should now be muted
15:03:16 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
15:03:20 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2011Nov/0052.html
15:03:34 <shadi> Topic: First formal publication
15:03:36 <SarahSwierenga> SarahSwierenga has joined #eval
15:03:45 <Zakim> -Richard
15:03:49 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20111115
15:03:55 <houtepen> eric: first formal publication online
15:04:06 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aaff
15:04:19 <Zakim> + +1.517.432.aagg
15:04:30 <houtepen> eric: Try to publish a first public working draft for feedback
15:05:00 <houtepen> eric: People who are not in the meeting have agreed to publication
15:05:06 <Detlev> +q
15:05:17 <ericvelleman> q?
15:05:21 <lwatson> lwatson has joined #eval
15:05:21 <Detlev> Zakim, unmute me
15:05:23 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
15:05:44 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see vivienne (muted), houtepen (muted), Detlev, AmyChen (muted), Shadi, dboudreau (muted), +31.30.239.aaee, +1.517.353.aaff, +1.517.432.aagg
15:05:59 <dboudreau> q+
15:06:01 <shadi> zakim, aaee is Eric
15:06:01 <Zakim> +Eric; got it
15:06:13 <SarahSwierenga> Hello, I'm on the phone now, too. Sarah Swierenga
15:06:30 <ericvelleman> q:
15:06:33 <ericvelleman> q?
15:06:39 <Mike_Elledge> Mike Elledge on phone too.  :^)
15:06:46 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:06:46 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:06:48 <houtepen> Detlev: sections sampling, evaluation are quite empty
15:07:10 <shadi> zakim, aagg is Sarah
15:07:10 <Zakim> +Sarah; got it
15:07:11 <Zakim> - +1.517.353.aaff
15:07:20 <shadi> zakim, aaff is Mike
15:07:20 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
15:07:26 <vivienne> q+
15:07:38 <shadi> ack det
15:07:55 <shadi> q+
15:07:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:07:58 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aahh
15:08:18 <houtepen> eric: agree much is missing in document, but it is clear which direction we are going
15:08:21 <ericvelleman> q?
15:08:52 <dboudreau> ack me
15:08:54 <richard> richard has joined #eval
15:09:02 <Mike_Elledge> yep
15:09:04 <shadi> zakim, aahh is Mike
15:09:04 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
15:09:04 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:09:05 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:09:17 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is Leonie
15:09:17 <Zakim> +Leonie; got it
15:09:22 <ericvelleman> q?
15:10:01 <Zakim> +??P13
15:10:19 <houtepen> denis: don't care about missing texts, just send something out to show public what we are working on
15:10:19 <Detlev> Fair enough ..
15:10:27 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
15:10:27 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
15:10:35 <lwatson> q+
15:10:49 <shadi> q- later
15:11:07 <Zakim> -??P13
15:11:19 <ericvelleman> q?
15:11:23 <vivienne> ack me
15:12:19 <houtepen> vivienne: understand Detlev. There are a lot of blanks, but if we need something out there we should publish, but maybe wait a week or so
15:12:27 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:12:27 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:13:09 <vivienne> Ah, I see.  Didn't know what was happening in the background
15:13:27 <houtepen> eric: Different groups thinking about working on the same thing, we can show we are already working on something
15:13:56 <houtepen> F.e. Mandate 376 ( EU )
15:14:16 <shadi> ack me
15:15:38 <houtepen> shadi: agree with Detlev / Vivienne, but the next time we can bring it in will be early december. If we do not publish this week it will probably be janaury before our first publication.
15:15:53 <shadi> ack lw
15:15:53 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:16:05 <richard> richard has joined #eval
15:16:08 <vivienne> With that in mind, Shadi, I'm  happy for it to go out there now.
15:16:49 <houtepen> leonie: good opportunity to get it on peoples radar, we don't risk (possibly) already having taking a wrong turn, lots of feedback
15:16:50 <ericvelleman> q?
15:16:50 <Detlev> yes agree
15:16:58 <shadi> ack m
15:17:01 <lwatson> ack me
15:17:02 <AmyChen> +1 to what Leonie said
15:17:35 <houtepen> Mike: depends on what we hope to achieve, earlier publication is good for early feedback
15:18:09 <houtepen> eric: agree with mike
15:18:28 <houtepen> shadi: encourage ourself to publish every 3 months
15:19:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:19:15 <ericvelleman> q?
15:19:17 <Mike_Elledge> detrimental
15:19:26 <Mike_Elledge> :^)
15:19:33 <kerstin> kerstin has joined #eval
15:19:55 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is Kerstin
15:19:55 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
15:20:05 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:20:05 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:20:21 <dboudreau> yes
15:20:23 <vivienne> fine with me
15:20:23 <Mike_Elledge> +1
15:20:26 <Detlev> fine
15:20:29 <houtepen> eric: decision send it to wcag with intention to publish
15:20:33 <houtepen> +1
15:20:42 <SarahSwierenga> +1 try to publish - like you said, they may kick it back anyway
15:20:48 <vivienne> q+
15:20:53 <vivienne> ack me
15:20:59 <kerstin> I agreed already :-)
15:21:06 <vivienne> ack me
15:21:13 <vivienne> q+
15:21:23 <ericvelleman> q?
15:21:55 <houtepen> shadi: there exist a possibility wcag sends it back
15:22:09 <shadi> ack v
15:22:44 <houtepen> vivienne: are there plans to ask us to write parts?
15:22:53 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:22:53 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:23:32 <houtepen> eric: I have written alot already, because of anticipated discussion I haven't published everything at once
15:23:46 <vivienne> yes, that's fine
15:23:49 <dboudreau> q+
15:23:50 <houtepen> Eric: I will write proposal, TF replies
15:23:59 <houtepen> vivienne: agrees
15:24:08 <ericvelleman> q?
15:24:10 <dboudreau> ack me
15:25:06 <houtepen> denis: getting new content in would postpone publication ??
15:26:05 <houtepen> shadi: there is a choice: add new content before publishing or publish first, add content later. I suggest publishing this now and working on another branch
15:26:58 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
15:26:58 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
15:27:15 <houtepen> shadi: continue discussing in TF on editorial draft
15:27:35 <dboudreau> +1 to shadi's explanation
15:27:55 <vivienne> sounds good to me
15:28:05 <houtepen> eric:proposal: do not add information in this version, at the same time work on a different editor draft
15:28:49 <ericvelleman> q?
15:29:06 <dboudreau> I support this proposal
15:29:39 <houtepen> eric: the proposal to publish this version is agreed by TF
15:29:56 <ericvelleman> q?
15:30:04 <vivienne> I'm happy then to send out the Nov.15 version
15:30:07 <vivienne> ack me
15:30:44 <Detlev> q+
15:31:19 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:31:19 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:31:24 <shadi> ack d
15:31:29 <ericvelleman> q?
15:31:34 <Detlev> Zakim, unmute me
15:31:34 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
15:33:11 <houtepen> Detlev: fair enough to get it out, but it lacks a bit of "meat". 
15:33:48 <Detlev> fine.
15:33:49 <houtepen> eric: detlev, your concerns/questions will be discussed
15:34:40 <houtepen> eric: small things that have to be changed can be added this day, shadi proposes this version to working group
15:34:45 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:34:45 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:35:05 <houtepen> eric: we continue work in a next editorial draft
15:35:37 <houtepen> shadi: i sent editorial cleanups to the list
15:35:47 <Detlev> looked OK to me
15:35:48 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:35:56 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2011Nov/0059.html
15:36:41 <shadi> [[
15:36:41 <shadi> 6. Expertise required for using this methodology
15:36:41 <shadi> Users of the Methodology are assumed to be knowledgeable of WCAG 2.0, 
15:36:41 <shadi> accessible web design, assistive technology, and of how people with 
15:36:41 <shadi> different disabilities use the Web. Evaluation according to this 
15:36:42 <shadi> methodology can be carried out by individuals but using review teams 
15:36:44 <shadi> with combined expertise involving people with disabilities and older 
15:36:46 <shadi> people in the evaluation process is strongly recommended.
15:36:48 <shadi> 6.1 Using Review Teams with Combined Expertise
15:36:50 <shadi> The _W3C/WAI evaluation resource suite_ provides complementary guidance 
15:36:52 <shadi> on _Using Combined Expertise to Evaluate Web Accessibility_. Review 
15:36:54 <shadi> teams can provide better coverage of the expertise required in the 
15:36:56 <shadi> understanding of web technologies, evaluation tools, barriers that 
15:36:58 <shadi> people with disabilities experience, assistive technologies and 
15:37:00 <shadi> approaches that people with disabilities use, and accessibility 
15:37:02 <shadi> guidelines and techniques.
15:37:04 <shadi> 6.2 Involving People with Disabilities and Older People
15:37:06 <shadi> The _W3C/WAI evaluation resource suite_ provides complementary guidance 
15:37:08 <shadi> on _Involving Users in Evaluating Web Accessibility_. Evaluating with 
15:37:12 <shadi> users with disabilities and with older users can identify additional 
15:37:14 <shadi> issues that are not easily discovered by expert evaluation alone. It can 
15:37:16 <shadi> make the evaluation process more effective and more efficient, 
15:37:18 <shadi> especially when users are involved throughout the development process.
15:37:20 <shadi> ]]
15:37:58 <houtepen> shadi: proposed section 6 rewrite
15:38:14 <vivienne> yes
15:38:17 <ericvelleman> q?
15:39:32 <vivienne> q+
15:39:37 <shadi> ack mike
15:39:39 <houtepen> mike: evaluation should not only be based on automatic evaluation
15:39:40 <dboudreau> q+
15:39:47 <ericvelleman> q?
15:39:50 <vivienne> ack me
15:40:11 <AmyChen> q+
15:42:06 <houtepen> vivienne: in reply to mike: some of the documents referred to do mention this. The section mainly concerning automated testing would be section 9. We do not want to repeat what is in other documents, just put references. Maybe we should put something about 'just'machine evaluation in the introduction
15:42:26 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:42:26 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:42:33 <Mike_Elledge> yes
15:42:42 <dboudreau> ack me
15:42:48 <houtepen> eric: i will see if i can add it to the introduction
15:43:18 <Mike_Elledge> utopic
15:43:47 <SarahSwierenga> q+
15:44:03 <houtepen> denis: is there a way where we could have a split in approaches (1 person / team)
15:44:51 <vivienne> q+
15:45:05 <houtepen> eric: is in the text, meant for individuals, recommend teams.
15:45:12 <vivienne> q-
15:45:15 <ericvelleman> q?
15:45:16 <houtepen> denis: needs more emphasis
15:45:31 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
15:45:31 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
15:45:33 <AmyChen> ack me
15:45:39 <kerstin> +1 for dboudreau 
15:45:56 <shadi> q+ to say add "(optional)" to the sub-section titles
15:46:17 <houtepen> amy: like shadi's propose text, add "although user testing ....." from original text
15:46:21 <AmyChen> Like Shadi's proposed text. Was comparing Shadi's text with Eric's original text. Please add sentence "Although user-testing is not a requirement under this Methodology, we strongly recommend that users with disabilities and older users, are involved in the evaluation."
15:46:22 <ericvelleman> q?
15:46:48 <AmyChen> zakim, mute me
15:46:48 <Zakim> AmyChen should now be muted
15:46:56 <shadi> ack sarah
15:47:13 <houtepen> sarah: section 10 conformity: do we need to say more on this subject
15:47:44 <houtepen> eric: i have text, maybe in next editorial draft?
15:48:20 <houtepen> sarah: outside world may want to weigh in at discussion on section 10
15:48:27 <shadi> q+ to also agree with clarifying the notes in section 10
15:48:38 <ericvelleman> q?
15:48:41 <shadi> ack me
15:48:41 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to say add "(optional)" to the sub-section titles and to also agree with clarifying the notes in section 10
15:49:58 <houtepen> shadi: add (optional) to heading about review team, section 10 needs more atm about wcag2 conformance
15:50:21 <houtepen> eric: agree
15:50:26 <ericvelleman> q?
15:50:49 <SarahSwierenga> +1
15:50:54 <ericvelleman> +1
15:50:54 <houtepen> eric: changes by shadi: everyone agrees?
15:50:55 <vivienne> +1
15:50:56 <Mike_Elledge> +1
15:50:57 <dboudreau> +1
15:50:57 <houtepen> +1
15:50:58 <AmyChen> +1
15:51:14 <houtepen> eric: everyone agrees
15:51:28 <Detlev> can't tell that quickly.. never mind
15:51:55 <Detlev> I#ll try
15:52:44 <houtepen> shadi: takes some time before publishing
15:52:46 <kerstin> I'll send either comments or a +1 to the list
15:53:07 <dboudreau> sounds great
15:54:04 <houtepen> eric: discussion on section 7.1,2,3,4,5 through the list
15:54:28 <dboudreau> q+
15:54:35 <ericvelleman> q?
15:54:38 <dboudreau> ack me
15:55:06 <houtepen> denis: easier to split e-mails so everyone can follow
15:55:46 <houtepen> eric: will start 1 discussion, if needed i will chop different discussion 
15:56:07 <houtepen> shadi: this discussion will be on a future draft, not this version
15:56:31 <dboudreau> if possible, one thread by section or sub-section, though discussions will get mixed up ;p
15:56:38 <vivienne> good night all
15:56:44 <Detlev> Bye
15:57:06 <houtepen> eric: next week is thanksgiving: postpone meeting?
15:57:11 <vivienne> Aussies don't do Thanksgiving either
15:57:16 <houtepen> eric: can not join
15:57:41 <Detlev> let's postpone
15:57:45 <Mike_Elledge> Thanks, everyone! Yes, if have meeting, schedule early.  We in US will be in a food coma after noon...
15:58:02 <dboudreau> yes, let's
15:58:05 <dboudreau> dec 8th
15:58:17 <houtepen> shadi: Postponing the next meeting to december 8th
15:59:17 <kerstin> bye all thx
15:59:18 <vivienne> vivienne has left #eval
15:59:19 <houtepen> ack me
15:59:21 <Zakim> -Mike
15:59:22 <Zakim> -Sarah
15:59:22 <Zakim> -dboudreau
15:59:25 <AmyChen> thanks, everyone! bye!
15:59:27 <Zakim> -Leonie
15:59:31 <dboudreau> take care all
15:59:33 <Zakim> -vivienne
15:59:34 <Zakim> -Detlev
15:59:36 <Zakim> -Eric
15:59:38 <Zakim> -houtepen
15:59:40 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:59:41 <Zakim> -AmyChen
15:59:47 <houtepen> houtepen has left #eval
16:00:44 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kerstin
16:01:06 <shadi> zakim, dop kerstin
16:01:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'dop kerstin', shadi
16:01:11 <shadi> zakim, drop kerstin
16:01:17 <Zakim> Kerstin is being disconnected
16:01:19 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
16:01:24 <Zakim> Attendees were vivienne, +31.30.239.aaaa, houtepen, +49.404.318.aabb, Detlev, +1.510.522.aacc, AmyChen, Shadi, +1.514.312.aadd, +31.30.239.aaee, dboudreau, Richard,
16:01:32 <Zakim> ... +1.517.353.aaff, +1.517.432.aagg, Eric, Sarah, +1.517.353.aahh, Mike, Leonie, Kerstin
16:01:51 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:01:51 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:01:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:01:53 <RRSAgent> I see no action items