16:54:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:54:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-irc
16:54:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:54:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
16:54:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
16:54:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:54:26 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:54:26 <trackbot> Date: 16 November 2011
16:54:32 <npdoty> Zakim, this will be dnt
16:54:32 <Zakim> ok, npdoty, I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM already started
16:55:01 <Joanne> Joanne has joined #DNT
16:55:11 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #DNT
16:55:31 <KevinT> KevinT has joined #dnt
16:56:10 <Frank> Frank has joined #DNT
16:56:28 <efelten> efelten has joined #dnt
16:56:30 <Zakim> + +1.408.674.aabb
16:56:55 <Zakim> + +1.415.520.aacc
16:56:57 <Jules> Jules has joined #dnt
16:57:24 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #dnt
16:57:31 <sidstamm> sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:57:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:57:55 <Zakim> +dsinger
16:58:02 <chuck> chuck has joined #dnt
16:58:21 <dsriedel> dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:58:28 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:58:30 <enewland> enewland has joined #dnt
16:58:34 <Zakim> + +49.431.98.aadd
16:58:36 <Zakim> + +1.202.326.aaee
16:58:44 <efelten> Zakim, aaee is efelten
16:58:44 <Zakim> +efelten; got it
16:58:44 <aleecia> aleecia has joined #dnt
16:58:45 <Zakim> + +1.949.483.aaff
16:59:09 <aleecia> zakim, please mute me
16:59:09 <Zakim> sorry, aleecia, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:59:10 <Zakim> + +1.310.392.aagg
16:59:11 <rvaneijk> I dialed in on a P port
16:59:11 <Zakim> + +1.206.664.aahh
16:59:12 <Zakim> + +1.202.263.aaii
16:59:12 <Zakim> + +1.202.835.aajj
16:59:14 <Zakim> + +1.646.825.aakk
16:59:16 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the call
16:59:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', aleecia
16:59:21 <dwainberg> dwainberg has joined #dnt
16:59:23 <Zakim> + +49.721.913.74.aall
16:59:30 <Zakim> + +1.510.859.aamm
16:59:32 <aleecia> zakim, code?
16:59:33 <dsriedel> zakim, aall is dsriedel
16:59:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), aleecia
16:59:38 <Zakim> +dsriedel; got it
16:59:46 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
16:59:48 <dsriedel> zakim, mute me
16:59:52 <aleecia> zakim, aabb is aleecia
16:59:59 <npdoty> Zakim, aamm is npdoty
17:00:00 <Zakim> dsriedel should now be muted
17:00:05 <aleecia> zakim, please mute me
17:00:06 <Zakim> +aleecia; got it
17:00:10 <Zakim> +npdoty; got it
17:00:11 <sidstamm> Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
17:00:19 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
17:00:22 <Joanne> Zakim, +1-415-520-aacc is Joanne
17:00:23 <Zakim> + +1.202.637.aann
17:00:26 <Zakim> +sidstamm; got it
17:00:27 <johnsimpson> zakim +johnsimpson 310-392-7041
17:00:27 <npdoty> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Nov/0150.html
17:00:30 <Zakim> sorry, Joanne, I do not recognize a party named '+1-415-520-aacc'
17:00:39 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
17:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.202.263.aaoo
17:01:12 <npdoty> Zakim, aacc is Joanne
17:01:12 <Zakim> +Joanne; got it
17:01:23 <NinjaMarnau> Zakim, NinjaMarnau is myusername
17:01:23 <Zakim> sorry, NinjaMarnau, I do not recognize a party named 'NinjaMarnau'
17:01:27 <npdoty> Zakim, aagg is johnsimpson
17:01:32 <Zakim> +johnsimpson; got it
17:01:34 <Zakim> + +1.212.631.aapp
17:01:35 <Joanne> Zakim, +1.415.520.aacc is Joanne
17:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.408.349.aaqq
17:01:38 <jkaran> jkaran has joined #dnt
17:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.202.637.aarr
17:01:44 <Zakim> + +1.978.944.aass
17:01:45 <Zakim> + +1.609.858.aatt
17:01:48 <Zakim> sorry, Joanne, I do not recognize a party named '+1.415.520.aacc'
17:01:59 <npdoty> Zakim, aacc is Joanne
17:02:00 <justin> Zakim, aarr is Justin
17:02:11 <npdoty> scribenick: NinjaMarnau
17:02:13 <W3C1> W3C1 has joined #dnt
17:02:17 <npdoty> Topic: Administration
17:02:18 <Zakim> sorry, npdoty, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
17:02:20 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
17:02:20 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: comments on the minutes from last call?
17:02:25 <npdoty> old minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-dnt-minutes
17:02:41 <NinjaMarnau> ... then I take these as approved
17:02:42 <Clay> Clay has joined #dnt
17:02:50 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
17:02:54 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
17:02:58 <NinjaMarnau> ... venue and date of next f2f meeting?
17:03:00 <Zakim> + +1.212.565.aauu
17:03:04 <Zakim> +Joanne.a
17:03:10 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
17:03:14 <tl> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:03:27 <rvaneijk> Zakim, +rvaneijk
17:03:33 <Zakim> + +1.801.830.aavv
17:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.176.780.0.aaaa, aleecia, Joanne, [IPcaller], dsinger (muted), [Mozilla], +49.431.98.aadd, efelten, +1.949.483.aaff, johnsimpson, +1.206.664.aahh,
17:03:38 <Zakim> ... +1.202.263.aaii, +1.646.825.aakk, +1.202.835.aajj, dsriedel (muted), npdoty, +1.202.637.aann, +1.202.263.aaoo, +1.212.631.aapp, +1.408.349.aaqq, +1.978.944.aass,
17:03:45 <Zakim> ... +1.609.858.aatt, Justin, Joanne.a, +1.212.565.aauu, +1.801.830.aavv
17:03:47 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has sidstamm
17:03:47 <Chris> Chris has joined #dnt
17:03:59 <Zakim> I wonder where rvaneijk is
17:04:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:04:02 <NinjaMarnau> aleecia: should be interesting for local observers, probably Brussels, starting early afternoon on tuesday until 5pm on thursday
17:04:05 <Zakim> + +1.908.541.aaww
17:04:13 <JC> JC has joined #DNT
17:04:14 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
17:04:41 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: should we have a public outreach event?
17:04:43 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
17:04:43 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
17:04:51 <Zakim> +??P81
17:04:56 <ksmith> ksmith has joined #DNT
17:04:56 <NinjaMarnau> ... is there initial feedback?
17:05:05 <amyc> amyc has joined #dnt
17:05:11 <WileyS> Depends on how far along we are - difficult to field external questions at this time.
17:05:12 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:05:17 <johnsimpson> +q
17:05:19 <Zakim> + +1.202.744.aaxx
17:05:21 <Lia> Lia has joined #dnt
17:05:22 <rvaneijk> Zakim, +??P81 rvaneijk
17:05:40 <NinjaMarnau> Nick: Would be good. In January probably better timing for this.
17:05:42 <Zakim> I don't understand '+??P81 rvaneijk', rvaneijk
17:05:51 <aleecia> q?
17:05:53 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aayy
17:05:55 <npdoty> Jules: happy to help
17:06:00 <hefferjr> hefferjr has joined #dnt
17:06:07 <Zakim> + +1.714.852.aazz
17:06:12 <dsinger_> Presenting what we have seems premature, but soliciting input and comment is probably ok.
17:06:48 <Zakim> -Joanne.a
17:07:12 <fielding> Zakim, jazz is fielding
17:07:12 <Zakim> sorry, fielding, I do not recognize a party named 'jazz'
17:07:21 <npdoty> Zakim, ??P81 is rvaneijk
17:07:21 <Zakim> +rvaneijk; got it
17:07:32 <Zakim> +Joanne.a
17:07:43 <fielding> Zakim, aazz is fielding
17:07:43 <andyzei> andyzei has joined #dnt
17:07:43 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: at the moment we have more question than answers. So it might be more a call for input.
17:07:43 <Zakim> +fielding; got it
17:08:15 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: we need to decide in december if we have suffient results to present something
17:08:38 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
17:08:39 <sean> sean has joined #dnt
17:08:40 <dsinger_> Given that we have a public document, explaining it and the process might be prudent
17:08:59 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: if we do an outreach event it would be extra to the f2f
17:09:00 <Zakim> + +1.206.619.bbaa
17:09:03 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/open
17:09:18 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: now going through the list of action items
17:09:37 <aleecia> (is done, just not updated)
17:09:39 <johnsimpson> agree with david singer. would be good to explain process publicly.
17:09:40 <Zakim> + +1.650.862.bbbb
17:09:43 <andyzei> +1.206.619.bbaa is me
17:09:59 <aleecia> (rather: Peter's action item is done)
17:10:06 <alex> alex has joined #dnt
17:10:09 <tlr> tlr has joined #dnt
17:10:29 <Zakim> + +1.646.654.bbcc
17:10:32 <npdoty> ACTION-31?
17:10:32 <trackbot> ACTION-31 -- Andy Zeigler to write up a proposal for a user-agent-managed site-specific exception -- due 2011-11-08 -- OPEN
17:10:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/31
17:10:57 <npdoty> q+
17:11:18 <johnsimpson> -q
17:11:21 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.bbdd
17:11:22 <NinjaMarnau> Andyzei: Action 31is still under discussion now
17:11:40 <alex> zakim, bbdd is alex
17:11:40 <Zakim> +alex; got it
17:12:02 <aleecia> Now that Andy's given so much thought to this, perhaps he could write what he does want to have happen, plus find a new author for the text he was originally writing
17:12:10 <aleecia> +1 Nick
17:12:17 <NinjaMarnau> Nick: is their still support for the action item?
17:12:26 <andyzei> aleecia: That's what i'm trying to accomplish on the email thread
17:12:46 <aleecia> Sid, can you help Shane?
17:13:06 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: I could help but need someone to assist from the technical side.
17:13:49 <NinjaMarnau> Nick: We will take this offline
17:13:52 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
17:13:52 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
17:14:21 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
17:14:21 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
17:15:05 <tedleung> tedleung has left #dnt
17:15:10 <NinjaMarnau> Mattias: Jonathan's action item will be discussed next week
17:15:25 <tedleung> tedleung has joined #dnt
17:15:30 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: There was quite some press activity
17:15:48 <NinjaMarnau> ... what was the feedback that you received?
17:16:06 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-tracking-dnt-20111114/
17:16:11 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-tracking-compliance-20111114/
17:16:46 <aleecia> Karl: so you're trying to call in and it's not working? What's going wrong?
17:16:52 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: Many people appointed that there are more questions than answers in the compliance stack. So we explained the W3C way of working
17:17:02 <karl> s/Karl:/Karl,/
17:17:28 <amyc> q+
17:17:34 <kj> kj has joined #dnt
17:17:43 <npdoty> q-
17:17:49 <NinjaMarnau> Jules: General misunderstanding of what the announcement ment. People just reading the headlines.
17:18:01 <aleecia> (thanks on the : oops. Sometimes calling in a few times works. -- good)
17:18:18 <Zakim> +??P0
17:18:27 <karl> Zakim, ??P0 is karl
17:18:27 <Zakim> +karl; got it
17:18:30 <npdoty> thanks to WileyS and Jules for responding to those questions appropriately, I think that will be a big help
17:18:32 <schunter> q?
17:18:33 <karl> zakim, mute e
17:18:33 <Zakim> efelten should now be muted
17:18:36 <karl> zakim, mute me
17:18:37 <Zakim> karl should now be muted
17:18:50 <tl> +q
17:18:54 <npdoty> ack amyc
17:19:10 <amyc> q-
17:19:35 <Zakim> + +1.202.629.bbee
17:19:36 <johnsimpson> zakim mute me
17:19:46 <npdoty> amyc: some concern in the press that this is about warning the user about tracking, might want to clarify in the future
17:19:47 <cbalber> cbalber has joined #dnt
17:20:04 <NinjaMarnau> Amyc: lot of misunderstanding of how the standard should work. People not reading the document and having wrong impressions
17:20:24 <johnsimpson> zakim, unmute me
17:20:24 <Zakim> johnsimpson was not muted, johnsimpson
17:20:34 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: Misunderstandings of complex press releases are quite common
17:20:53 <NinjaMarnau> ... so the IBM PR staff was not overly concerned
17:21:02 <aleecia> We'll also spend some time internally on press, Amy. Thanks.
17:21:46 <npdoty> Topic: Tracking Preference Expression new business
17:22:33 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: Now discussion on open issues and open items from the list
17:23:06 <NinjaMarnau> ... Proposal on Header/URI
17:23:19 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dnt
17:23:41 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:23:47 <Zakim> -dsinger
17:23:51 <schunter> q?
17:23:55 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:23:56 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
17:24:47 <fielding> anyone have a link?
17:24:54 <npdoty> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Nov/0067.html
17:25:22 <NinjaMarnau> tl: describes the proposal. First character of respnse header describers the state of DNT; second character points to a well known URI 
17:25:33 <NinjaMarnau> sorry if I got it wrong, was very fast
17:26:01 <karl> TND?
17:26:20 <aleecia> Short is good
17:26:36 <JC> DNTR?
17:26:40 <schunter> q?
17:26:51 <ksmith> +1 to DNTR
17:27:24 <aleecia> I'm happy with DNTR now and we can reopen if there's any need to 
17:27:43 <karl> q+ to ask with letters casing.
17:27:46 <sidstamm> "DNT-Response"?
17:27:49 <NinjaMarnau> tl: we could replace these characters with something longer, but the content of them is more important. I don't worry about the abbreviation
17:28:09 <karl> q-
17:28:28 <dsriedel> sorry, but "catchable" same as "cacheable" in this document?
17:28:35 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: agree. we should loke at semantic elements
17:28:38 <BrianTs> BrianTs has joined #dnt
17:28:50 <karl> q+
17:28:59 <npdoty> q?
17:29:03 <karl> zakim, unmute me
17:29:03 <Zakim> karl should no longer be muted
17:29:03 <schunter> q?
17:29:08 <npdoty> ack tl
17:29:24 <schunter> ack karl
17:29:33 <npdoty> it could even potentially be useful for other purposes if the user agent knows which servers are first or third party
17:29:44 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: discussion on how the server tells whether it is 1. or 3. party
17:29:51 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
17:30:06 <Jules> take note of this privacy conference in brussels during proposed in person date http://www.cpdpconferences.org/
17:30:13 <BrianTs> Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has BrianTs
17:30:13 <Zakim> +BrianTs; got it
17:30:27 <dwainberg> q+
17:30:33 <dsinger> am I reading this right; "DNT; o;r=7" would indicate a 3rd-party opt-in with an explanation at /.well-known/dnt?r=7   ??
17:31:04 <tl> DNT:o7
17:31:05 <ksmith> q+
17:31:06 <aleecia> Jules: part of why we're going to be in or new Brussels. Would've liked to overlap with it less… but that's the time our WG members are available. Ideally we have some observers from the conference.
17:31:33 <npdoty> ack dwainberg
17:31:34 <karl> s/Jules:/Jules,/
17:31:49 <NinjaMarnau> tl: useful information to have. But not sure how to do/use it.
17:31:49 <aleecia> (arch, thanks Karl :-)
17:32:01 <aleecia> s/arch/argh
17:32:25 <enewland_> enewland_ has joined #dnt
17:33:31 <Clay> +q
17:33:56 <NinjaMarnau> ?: We decide this on behalf of clients and what they think about their status of 1./3. party. What about contradiction between header and well known URI
17:34:01 <NinjaMarnau> missed the name
17:34:06 <JC> BRB
17:34:16 <aleecia> (TL spoke, I believe)
17:34:28 <schunter> q?
17:34:33 <NinjaMarnau> tl: they should never contradict each other.
17:34:37 <npdoty> s/?:/tl:/
17:34:48 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: we need to discuss this issue.
17:35:29 <NinjaMarnau> ... we could solve this by one of this overwriting the other
17:35:31 <schunter> This proposal: Header is binding and URL only offers additional (refining) info.
17:35:48 <schunter> In this scheme, it would be weird if the explanation undoes/contradicts the header.
17:36:04 <aleecia> Wait, you can have dynamic content in a URL
17:36:12 <aleecia> URL stays the same. Content changes.
17:36:19 <schunter> good point.
17:36:21 <NinjaMarnau> tl: header is more important. nevertheless contradiction needs to be avoided
17:36:37 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
17:36:37 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
17:36:41 <aleecia> q+
17:36:45 <schunter> q?
17:37:07 <schunter> ack ksmith
17:37:40 <NinjaMarnau> ksmith: concerns about the complexity of letters and numbers. I suggest a more simple code method
17:37:41 <karl> lowercase/uppercase is a syntax issue. 
17:38:11 <NinjaMarnau> ... first charcter should be just true or false. easy to read
17:38:33 <karl> they should be changed, but that is orthogonal to their meaning. 
17:39:09 <dsinger> let's argue about what information is conveyed, and then design the best header to convey it.  can I suggest that we not bike-shed the compression now? I agree it's over-compact, but...
17:39:17 <schunter> q?
17:39:36 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: first let us focus on content. it is a valid concern but first content, then coding
17:40:36 <NinjaMarnau> Clay: from a performance pov - a dynamic response header might be prohibitive
17:40:44 <WileyS> +q
17:40:50 <karl> this seems to encourage servers to go a simpler way: which is yes we track, no we do not track anything.
17:40:53 <efelten> +q
17:41:04 <schunter> ack Clay
17:41:24 <schunter> ack aleecia
17:41:31 <dsinger> q+
17:41:51 <NinjaMarnau> aleecia: you can have a static URL but have dynamic content
17:41:59 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
17:41:59 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
17:42:05 <dwainberg> q+
17:42:54 <aleecia> (if it never matters to you if you're first or third party, you can always claim 3rd party all the time)
17:43:00 <efelten> -q
17:43:08 <fielding> q+
17:43:35 <WileyS> -q
17:43:35 <schunter> ack wileys
17:43:40 <karl> SHOULD be able to do it. I still don't see how :/
17:43:48 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: extensive chain on deciding on 1./3. - each party should be able to determine in what role they act. Many possible techniques to arrive at this conclusion. Companies should be able to determine this in most circumstances
17:43:56 <aleecia> +1
17:44:53 <aleecia> Huge fan of: if your site is complex, your DNT world may be complex. If your site is simple, we should build a way for DNT to be simple for you.
17:45:30 <schunter> ack dsinger
17:45:32 <karl> agreed with aleecia
17:45:32 <schunter> q?
17:45:36 <schunter> ack dwainberg
17:45:40 <NinjaMarnau> efelten: for most parties it should be very simple to decide on this an give an answer. Just need to make sure the answer is very clear.
17:45:42 <efelten> Not first-party vs. third-party, but rather first-party vs. not-claiming-to-be-first-party
17:46:17 <aleecia> +1 Ed
17:46:39 <johnsimpson> +1 Ed
17:46:39 <Clay> Thinking of the 100M active (500M total) websites.  Most of those aren't operated by their "owners".
17:46:58 <aleecia> What I'm hearing: need for examples section in the proposed text to clarify this
17:47:06 <schunter> +1
17:47:28 <NinjaMarnau> dwainberg: if several servers operated by one party are asked, they might give contradicting information.
17:48:05 <schunter> q?
17:48:07 <NinjaMarnau> tl: it is not contradicting but fine grained. the servers can act independently/differently
17:48:17 <fielding> I don't see a need for 1st/3rd party distinction since the browser knows what kind of request has been made and just needs to know if the server is allowing cross-site tracking or not.
17:48:55 <tl> fielding, but the server's response allows the browser to check that the server know's what's up
17:49:12 <karl> hmmm
17:49:27 <aleecia> I'm not convinced the browser knows 1st v 3rd
17:50:05 <schunter> q?
17:50:06 <dwainberg> or that the browser's version of 1st vs 3rd is different from ours
17:50:07 <karl> the browser doesn't know for sure. and a server doesn't know if it is a 1st or a 3rd either
17:50:07 <NinjaMarnau> fielding: if the server answers I respect your dnt, but I track you, it is immanent that the entity has an exception 
17:50:17 <fielding> aleecia, it doesn't need to know
17:50:21 <schunter> ack fielding
17:50:36 <aleecia> Ok, I'm not understanding you - that's good :-)
17:50:58 <NinjaMarnau> ... so the browser does not need a response header on whether 1. or 3. party
17:51:00 <schunter> you = matthias/
17:51:24 <dsriedel> Do we ignore in this discussion how the browser actually treats all the answers from all involved servers/parties in the actual displayed website? I do not see this in the document but also do not know whether this is a concern in this working group. But the feasability of implementation might be a concern?
17:51:51 <W3C1> W3C1 has joined #dnt
17:52:23 <fielding> If the server says it is compliant, *why* it is still tracking is not a browser concern.  Only the fact that it is tracking matters.
17:53:40 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:53:46 <rvaneijk> @Roy, if the server says is is compliant, a user might want to know if that is based on opt (back) in or not.
17:54:08 <schunter> q?
17:55:01 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: feedback on the opt-back-in character?
17:55:37 <schunter> is my sound quality OK?
17:56:08 <NinjaMarnau> Kevin: why did we want to seperate opt-back-in from the other exceptions?
17:56:33 <Zakim> -rvaneijk
17:56:53 <schunter> q?
17:57:04 <NinjaMarnau> ... this diversifies the possible answers even more. Opt-back-in might be just one more exception
17:58:49 <schunter> q?
17:59:03 <NinjaMarnau> tl: opt-back-in is user specific. therefore, the opt-back-in in a well known URL is not in a good position. It should be highlighted via the response header.
17:59:27 <Zakim> -fielding
18:00:03 <WileyS> +q
18:00:07 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: continue with issue 95
18:00:41 <schunter> q?
18:00:44 <andyzei> +q
18:00:45 <NinjaMarnau> ... header expresses user preference, should providers (employers, libraries etc.) be able to set it?
18:00:46 <dsinger> issue-95?
18:00:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-95 -- May an institution or network provider set a tracking preference for a user? -- open
18:00:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/95
18:00:56 <JC> +q
18:01:19 <Zakim> - +1.801.830.aavv
18:01:23 <karl> q+
18:02:14 <JC> -q
18:02:17 <andyzei> -q
18:02:21 <schunter> q?
18:02:25 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: edge cases may be employers who could have the legal right to set the dnt signal. But in general the user should set it. Evil example would be an malicious ISP setting the signal for all its users.
18:02:25 <karl> DNT:1;proxy
18:02:27 <schunter> ack wileys
18:02:29 <WileyS> -q
18:02:31 <aleecia> ack WileyS
18:02:33 <dsinger> yes
18:02:34 <aleecia> yes karl
18:02:46 <aleecia> ach karl
18:02:54 <aleecia> wow, autocomplete. 
18:03:05 <aleecia> ack karl 
18:03:47 <Zakim> - +1.813.366.aayy
18:04:11 <tl> +q
18:04:40 <schunter> q?
18:04:47 <schunter> ack tl
18:05:13 <aleecia> q+
18:05:19 <karl> proxy = piece of hardware, institution using this proxy to modify it
18:05:19 <NinjaMarnau> sorry karl, didn't get it all. Could you write down your question?
18:05:40 <dsinger> q+
18:05:44 <aleecia> q-
18:06:06 <schunter> q?
18:06:46 <karl> karl: there will be a few cases. There will be wrong pieces of softwares. We can't avoid it. There will be institutions modifying toward a DNT:1 or DNT:0 against the user or for the user will. Is a paramter useful? I'm not sure. So I guess what we want is to check what we want to achieve on the server side.
18:06:53 <WileyS> +q
18:07:03 <schunter> ack dsiner
18:07:08 <schunter> ack dsinger
18:07:09 <NinjaMarnau> tl: a provider between my and a website (proxy) is much less acceptable than an institution (e.g. library) setting my dnt signal.
18:07:29 <dsinger>  don't think it's worth arguing much about whether it's 'shall not', 'should not' etc. as the truly nasty intermediates won't care about compliance anyway
18:07:49 <andyzei> +q
18:07:58 <karl> it is why we need blocking list
18:08:04 <WileyS> -q
18:08:05 <karl> against rogue providers ;)
18:08:08 <andyzei> -q
18:08:34 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: who will provide a specific text we can discuss it in two weeks?
18:08:47 <NinjaMarnau> ... WileyS want to volunteer?
18:08:56 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dnt
18:09:06 <Zakim> -npdoty
18:09:07 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: yes, Tom can you assist?
18:09:17 <dsinger> issue-95?
18:09:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-95 -- May an institution or network provider set a tracking preference for a user? -- open
18:09:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/95
18:09:51 <karl> zakim, mute me
18:09:51 <Zakim> karl should now be muted
18:09:52 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: issue 27 - opt back in mechanism
18:09:54 <punderwood> punderwood has joined #dnt
18:09:59 <tl> action: tom to email shane distinguishing proxies, proxy pratices, and institution-owned computers, related to issue 95, by friday
18:09:59 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tom
18:10:02 <dsinger> issue-27?
18:10:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- How should the "opt back in" mechanism be designed? -- open
18:10:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/27
18:10:09 <tl> action: tl to email shane distinguishing proxies, proxy pratices, and institution-owned computers, related to issue 95, by friday
18:10:09 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - tl
18:10:09 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. tleung2, tlowenth)
18:10:24 <tl> action: tlowenth to email shane distinguishing proxies, proxy pratices, and institution-owned computers, related to issue 95, by friday
18:10:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Email shane distinguishing proxies, proxy pratices, and institution-owned computers, related to issue 95, by friday [on Thomas Lowenthal - due 2011-11-23].
18:10:44 <jkaran> q+
18:11:01 <NinjaMarnau> ... f2f outcome: publisher want a dialogue to communicate to users that they need to opt back in to use a service.
18:11:04 <schunter> q?
18:12:00 <NinjaMarnau> jkaran: there is opt-in and opt-back-in, we need to differentiate. Europe's and USA's default is different.
18:12:52 <Zakim> - +1.202.835.aajj
18:13:08 <WileyS> +q
18:13:12 <schunter> q?
18:13:20 <schunter> a k jkaran
18:13:21 <NinjaMarnau> ... the daa has mechanisms already in place that are non cookie based. we need to consider this when finding a solution
18:13:21 <jkaran> q-
18:13:24 <schunter> ack jkaran
18:13:32 <schunter> ack wileys
18:13:35 <rvaneijk> Jennifer, could you please summarize this for the minutes?
18:13:38 <tl> +q
18:14:51 <schunter> q?
18:14:54 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: publishers should be able to trigger data (opt-in) for providing free content. Is this managed by the publisher or the browser?.
18:14:56 <karl> +1
18:15:37 <karl> q+ to clarify about UI sketching wrt F2F
18:15:58 <andyzei> +q
18:16:05 <schunter> q?
18:16:10 <JC> +q
18:16:26 <NinjaMarnau> ... if there is a general dnt signal we might want to have a general list of excepted publishers.
18:17:15 <NinjaMarnau> tl: one place to administrate the exceptions for the user rather than do this individually for each site. 
18:17:17 <WileyS> +q
18:17:32 <karl> ack tl
18:17:42 <karl> ack karl
18:17:43 <Zakim> karl, you wanted to clarify about UI sketching wrt F2F
18:17:46 <rvaneijk> ack tom
18:17:53 <schunter> q?
18:19:30 <karl> karl: I agree with shane it would be an excellent exercise for the WG F2F to understand how we design the technology. By modeliing HTTP interactions physically with index cards and movement of people. (not necessary drawings)
18:19:44 <jkaran> rvaneijk, sure no problem.  Should I summarize here or in an email?
18:19:57 <Zakim> - +1.650.862.bbbb
18:20:11 <schunter> q?
18:20:29 <NinjaMarnau> Matthias: any opinions how the opt-back-in could look like? the next f2f is two far away to wait for it and decide then.
18:21:48 <schunter> q?
18:21:54 <andyzei> -q
18:21:56 <schunter> ack anydzei
18:22:05 <schunter> ack JC
18:22:27 <aleecia> +1
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18:22:34 <NinjaMarnau> JC: the implementation in the browser is out of scope. we shouldn't lose too much time on this discussion
18:22:43 <dsinger> q+
18:22:43 <schunter> q?
18:22:47 <schunter> ack wileys
18:22:50 <karl> we are not talking about creating the UI
18:22:54 <aleecia> If we're sure it can be useful that's ample
18:23:10 <karl> what are the messages that we exchange. Is it doable.
18:23:17 <aleecia> If we're not sure it's useful, then it's worth short time to talk about
18:23:24 <karl> it is UX, not UI
18:23:29 <NinjaMarnau> WileyS: it is just a way to show how it COULD work as an example
18:23:31 <aleecia> Nice, Karl
18:24:16 <rvaneijk> (jkaran summarized: The DAA program requires networks and BT companies to allow users to opt out of collection. By default, in the US, collection/usage is turned on. When this occurs, an opt out cookie is placed on the user's browser. If the cookie is removed (through clearing cookies or through opting in), then the user just has their opt out cookie removed.They are then, by default opted in)
18:24:34 <amyc> we also want to make sure that we are open to different technical methods of recording that override/consent
18:25:14 <NinjaMarnau> ... regarding the difference between EU and US, the ePrivacy is still under debate and is still being transposed. 
18:25:40 <rvaneijk> This is issue -98
18:25:41 <schunter> q?
18:25:41 <NinjaMarnau> ... we should keep this in mind but not regard it as a major driver
18:26:20 <rvaneijk> issue-98?
18:26:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-98 -- Should we consider applicable laws and regulations, such as the Article 5, paragraph 3 ePriv Dir -- raised
18:26:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/98
18:26:30 <KevinT> KevinT has left #dnt
18:26:57 <Zakim> -Joanne
18:27:08 <schunter> q?
18:27:39 <Zakim> - +1.202.637.aann
18:27:45 <Zakim> - +1.202.629.bbee
18:27:45 <dsinger> is concerned that opt-in mechanisms could be hard to define, but would like to think about how to link from a site claim "you opted in" back to how the user did that, or evidence that they did
18:27:50 <schunter> ack dsinger/
18:27:57 <schunter> ack dsinger?
18:28:18 <karl> zakim, unmute me
18:28:18 <Zakim> karl was not muted, karl
18:28:37 <NinjaMarnau> dsinger: discussion on UI can be too vast. but I want to emphasize that the user needs to understand or connect his previous actions with this you are opted-in / opted-back-in signal he gets
18:28:40 <Zakim> - +1.908.541.aaww
18:29:03 <dwainberg> karl, I am willing to help with that
18:29:36 <Zakim> -Joanne.a
18:29:39 <karl> ACTION: karl to sketch diagram (if possible) on interactions with opt back in mechanisms.
18:29:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Sketch diagram (if possible) on interactions with opt back in mechanisms. [on Karl Dubost - due 2011-11-23].
18:29:48 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:29:51 <Zakim> -Justin
18:30:08 <Zakim> -efelten
18:30:11 <Zakim> - +1.212.631.aapp
18:30:12 <Zakim> - +1.646.825.aakk
18:30:13 <Zakim> -karl
18:30:13 <Zakim> - +1.408.349.aaqq
18:30:13 <Zakim> - +1.646.654.bbcc
18:30:14 <Zakim> - +1.202.744.aaxx
18:30:14 <Zakim> - +1.202.263.aaii
18:30:16 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:30:18 <Zakim> - +1.206.619.bbaa
18:30:20 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
18:30:22 <Zakim> - +1.202.263.aaoo
18:30:24 <Zakim> - +49.431.98.aadd
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18:30:26 <Zakim> -aleecia
18:30:28 <Zakim> - +1.206.664.aahh
18:30:30 <dsinger> zakim, who was here?
18:30:30 <Zakim> -alex
18:30:32 <Zakim> - +1.212.565.aauu
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18:30:34 <Zakim> - +1.609.858.aatt
18:30:36 <Zakim> -johnsimpson
18:30:38 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
18:30:40 <Zakim> - +49.176.780.0.aaaa
18:30:42 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dsinger.
18:30:44 <Zakim> -dsriedel
18:30:47 <fielding> fielding has left #dnt
18:31:10 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:32:47 <Zakim> - +1.949.483.aaff
18:33:08 <ksmith> ksmith has left #DNT
18:34:40 <rvaneijk> rvaneijk has left #dnt
18:35:59 <NinjaMarnau> NinjaMarnau has left #dnt
18:37:47 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, +1.978.944.aass, in T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM
18:37:49 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
18:37:54 <Zakim> Attendees were +49.176.780.0.aaaa, +1.408.674.aabb, +1.415.520.aacc, [IPcaller], dsinger, +49.431.98.aadd, +1.202.326.aaee, efelten, +1.949.483.aaff, +1.310.392.aagg,
18:37:58 <Zakim> ... +1.206.664.aahh, +1.202.263.aaii, +1.202.835.aajj, +1.646.825.aakk, +49.721.913.74.aall, +1.510.859.aamm, dsriedel, aleecia, npdoty, +1.202.637.aann, sidstamm, +1.202.263.aaoo,
18:38:03 <Zakim> ... Joanne, johnsimpson, +1.212.631.aapp, +1.408.349.aaqq, +1.202.637.aarr, +1.978.944.aass, +1.609.858.aatt, Justin, +1.212.565.aauu, +1.801.830.aavv, [Microsoft],
18:38:07 <Zakim> ... +1.908.541.aaww, +1.202.744.aaxx, +1.813.366.aayy, +1.714.852.aazz, rvaneijk, fielding, +1.206.619.bbaa, +1.650.862.bbbb, +1.646.654.bbcc, +1.813.366.bbdd, alex, karl,
18:38:09 <Zakim> ... +1.202.629.bbee, BrianTs
18:38:16 <npdoty> trackbot, end meeting
18:38:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:38:16 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
18:38:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:38:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
18:38:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:38:18 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-actions.rdf :
18:38:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom to email shane distinguishing proxies, proxy pratices, and institution-owned computers, related to issue 95, by friday [1]
18:38:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-irc#T18-09-59
18:38:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tl to email shane distinguishing proxies, proxy pratices, and institution-owned computers, related to issue 95, by friday [2]
18:38:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-irc#T18-10-09
18:38:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tlowenth to email shane distinguishing proxies, proxy pratices, and institution-owned computers, related to issue 95, by friday [3]
18:38:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-irc#T18-10-24
18:38:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: karl to sketch diagram (if possible) on interactions with opt back in mechanisms. [4]
18:38:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-irc#T18-29-39