16:33:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:33:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-css-irc
16:33:26 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:33:26 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
16:33:32 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:39:23 <paul_irish> paul_irish has joined #css
16:39:52 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:40:08 <tantek> nimbupani, you should hang out here more often ;)
16:40:26 <divya> tantek: hahaha I doo, you dont :P
16:40:36 <tantek> lol
16:41:37 <glazou> hey divya, will you have high heels for next css wg ftf too ? :-)
16:41:53 <paul_iri_> paul_iri_ has joined #css
16:42:20 <divya> glazou: as long as it is in paris and I am going to be there.
16:42:36 <glazou> that's a deal
16:42:50 <glazou> if you do that, I'll wear a tie
16:43:04 <divya> hahahah DONE
16:43:08 <glazou> :)
16:43:09 <divya> now to convince chaals
16:43:54 <divya> WAY TO GO glazou!!
16:44:08 <paul_irish> paul_irish has joined #css
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16:56:26 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:56:28 <Zakim> +??P19
16:56:38 <Zakim> -??P19
16:56:39 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:56:39 <Zakim> Attendees were 
16:56:49 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #css
16:57:04 <kimberly> kimberly has joined #css
16:57:20 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:57:27 <Zakim> +??P41
16:57:33 <glazou> Zakim, ??P41 is me
16:57:33 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:57:39 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:58:30 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
16:59:06 <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aaaa
16:59:26 <Zakim> +plinss
16:59:28 <kimberly> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:59:31 <Zakim> +kimberly; got it
16:59:45 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
17:00:00 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
17:00:01 <florian> florian has joined #css
17:00:04 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:00:18 <Zakim> + +1.408.543.aabb
17:00:37 <Zakim> + +93550aacc
17:00:42 <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
17:00:43 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
17:00:46 <JohnJan> JohnJan has joined #CSS
17:01:07 <Zakim> +??P66
17:01:17 <florian> Zakim, I am ??P66
17:01:18 <Zakim> +florian; got it
17:02:04 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
17:02:04 <florian> florian has joined #css
17:02:24 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aadd
17:02:29 <JohnJan> JohnJan has joined #CSS
17:02:40 <bradk> Zakim, aadd is me
17:02:51 <JohnJan> Zakim, microsoft has me
17:02:52 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
17:03:12 <Zakim> +JohnJan; got it
17:03:14 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaee
17:03:23 <smfr> Zakim, aaee is me
17:03:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:34 <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
17:03:35 <ksweeney> ksweeney has joined #css
17:03:43 <Zakim> +??P63
17:03:49 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
17:03:49 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:03:51 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P63 is me
17:03:55 <ericm> ericm has joined #css
17:04:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, kimberly, plinss, [Microsoft], +1.408.543.aabb, antonp, florian, bradk, smfr, [IPcaller], ??P63
17:04:10 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_ has joined #css
17:04:12 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJan
17:04:16 <Zakim> +??P79
17:04:22 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
17:04:26 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (75%), plinss (5%)
17:04:34 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
17:04:36 <glazou> Zakim, mute [IPcaller]
17:04:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see ericm, ksweeney, JohnJan, florian, smfr, bradk, antonp, dsinger_, shepazu, kimberly, danielweck, nimbupani, paul_iri_, stearns, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, tantek, lhnz,
17:04:40 <danielweck> Zakim, why are you slow today?
17:04:45 <Zakim> ... myakura, dglazkov, kojiishi, miketaylr, arronei, drublic, dcosta, karl, brianman, anne, plinss, TabAtkins, danbeam__, hober, dholbert, fantasai, gsnedders, krijnh, Hixie,
17:04:53 <Zakim> ... trackbot, CSSWG_LogBot, pjrm, Bert, ed
17:04:58 <Zakim> +Bert
17:04:58 <glazou> Zakim is probably attending #w3conf ?
17:05:06 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
17:05:10 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danielweck.
17:05:23 <danielweck> no problems Zakim.
17:05:23 <tantek> Zakim, tantek is Tantek Çelik
17:05:28 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aagg
17:05:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'tantek is Tantek Çelik', tantek
17:05:52 <tabatkins_> Zakim, aagg is me
17:05:56 <glazou> Zakim, unmute [IPcaller]
17:05:57 <Zakim> +tabatkins_; got it
17:06:04 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should no longer be muted
17:06:28 <glazou> there is a lot of echo
17:06:32 <tabatkins_> scribe: TabAtkins_
17:06:33 <florian> florian has left #css
17:06:34 <florian> florian has joined #css
17:06:40 <tabatkins_> scribenick: TabAtkins_
17:06:45 <smfr> everyone mute!
17:06:51 <Bert> zakim, who is making noise?
17:07:01 <Zakim> Bert, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (20%), plinss (29%)
17:07:28 <tabatkins_> Daniel: We're meeting at the Paris f2f next year.
17:07:37 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
17:07:46 <tabatkins_> Daniel: The org that offered hosting, to thank them we could organize a CSSWG meeting with the community there.
17:07:54 <brianman_> brianman_ has joined #css
17:07:57 <tabatkins_> Daniel: The W3C has a history of organizing meetups there.
17:08:04 <tabatkins_> Daniel: These are usually popular and *packed*.
17:08:14 <nimbupani1> nimbupani1 has joined #css
17:08:21 <tabatkins_> Daniel: We could have a short preso from each vendor, and a Q&A session with the community.
17:08:38 <tabatkins_> Daniel: Since I"m hosting the Tuesday social dinner, I think it could be cool to do it on Monday or Wed, 7-9.
17:08:53 <tabatkins_> Daniel: And participation from the french-speaking members of each org woudl be appreciated.
17:09:22 <tabatkins_> florian: It means I have to prepare something, but otherwise a good idea.
17:09:44 <tabatkins_> florian: Do you think it's reasonable to get the Qs in english, or translate on the fly?
17:10:03 <tabatkins_> glazou: I think most of the audience will be french.
17:10:34 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: But Google doesn't have a french speaker on the WG, for example.
17:10:53 <tabatkins_> glazou: Oh, yeah, doing the Qs and As in English is fine, and we can translate on the fly if someone can't ask their question in Englihs.
17:11:16 <tabatkins_> [no objections, several people explicitly saying it's good]
17:11:26 <tabatkins_> plinss: Daniel, can you give some hotel suggestions?
17:11:43 <tabatkins_> glazou: I visited the offices, and have several locations selected.  I'll send them as soon as possible.
17:11:57 <glazou> ok :)
17:12:00 <glazou> noted kimberly 
17:12:14 <tabatkins_> RESOLVED: Do a meeting with the french community after-hours during the France f2f.
17:12:42 <tabatkins_> plinss: Sylvain wanted to talk about module statuses, etc. at the f2f.  We have time now.
17:12:49 <glazou> Bert: slacker ;-)
17:12:57 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
17:13:06 <tabatkins_> plinss: So what's ready to advance?
17:13:16 <tabatkins_> plinss: MQ is waiting for testing, @style is blocked by one test.
17:13:48 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Going down the list...
17:13:59 <tabatkins_> fantasai: B&B is ready except fo rthe color transition issue, which we can sort out at CR.
17:14:07 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Hakon has an issue on the agenda today.
17:14:12 <tabatkins_> fantasai: MQ is waiting for tests.
17:14:21 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Nothing else can go on the snapshot yet.
17:14:32 <tabatkins_> s/Hakon has an issue/Hakon has an issue on multicol/
17:14:48 <tabatkins_> howcome: Is multicol in the testsuite?
17:14:53 <tabatkins_> s/testsuite/snapshot/
17:15:03 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Not yet - it needs a comprehensive testsuite first.
17:15:13 <tabatkins_> howcome: It has some good tests coming in now, in the incoming directory.
17:15:23 <tabatkins_> plinss: So let's get those ready to be submitted and reviewed.
17:15:30 <tabatkins_> fantasai: And finish up the open issues in the draft.
17:15:39 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Mobile Profile, nobody's working on.
17:15:46 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Marquee is in CR, but no testsuite.
17:16:01 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Can we request a testsuite from the people who want this spec?
17:16:13 <tabatkins_> Bert: I tried once without success, but I can try again.
17:16:35 <paul_iri_> paul_iri_ has joined #css
17:16:47 <tabatkins_> plinss: Is anyone implementing this?
17:16:56 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: No one on the desktop, and I don't think anyone on smartphones.
17:17:12 <tabatkins_> howcome: Isn't overflow-style in there?  Does this mean we're not doing overflow-style ont he desktop?
17:17:23 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Not overflow-style:marquee, at least.
17:17:39 <tabatkins_> smfr: WebKit does implement the marquee properties.
17:17:59 <tabatkins_> kimberly: It's referenced in some of the consumer electronics specs, so they may be able to contribute resources/test cases.
17:18:19 <tabatkins_> ACTION kimberly: contact some consumer electronics people about contributing testcases for Marquee
17:18:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-401 - Contact some consumer electronics people about contributing testcases for Marquee [on Kimberly Blessing - due 2011-11-23].
17:18:43 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Paged Media still needs some work to get the spec self-coherent.
17:19:00 <tabatkins_> Zakim, who is noisy.
17:19:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', tabatkins_
17:19:02 <tabatkins_> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:19:13 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
17:19:17 <Zakim> tabatkins_, listening for 14 seconds I heard sound from the following: danielweck (87%)
17:19:17 <smfr> monkeys on keyboards..........
17:19:26 <danielweck> I am muted though....
17:19:28 <danielweck> damn
17:19:30 <smfr> we'll have another spec in a sec
17:19:35 <glazou> LOL
17:19:44 <JohnJan> nice smfr
17:20:06 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I believe MIPC (printer consortium) depends on the CSS Print Profile.
17:20:08 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
17:20:24 <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasi to ask Ming about the CSS Print Profile.
17:20:24 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - fantasi
17:20:30 <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai to ask Ming about the CSS Print Profile.
17:20:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-402 - Ask Ming about the CSS Print Profile. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
17:20:55 <tabatkins_> fantasai: V&U is mostly stable, the only thing I"m slightly concerned about is attr(), but otherwise it should go to LC in a month or two unless people ahve issues they haven't raised yet.
17:21:03 <tabatkins_> plinss: Any tests for it?
17:21:14 <tabatkins_> fantasai: No.
17:21:28 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Cascading we've talked about.
17:21:50 <tabatkins_> fantasai: A new mechanism we've talked about in there is a new way to do alternate stylesheets inline, but nobody seems to be caring about that.
17:22:10 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:22:19 <Zakim> -??P79
17:22:20 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: So would you suggest dropping it to advance cascading?
17:22:27 <tabatkins_> fantasai: We may consider it, yeah.
17:22:54 <tabatkins_> fantasai: There was a proposal for a "default" value and rolling back the cascade or blocking inheritance, which we might address there.
17:23:01 <tabatkins_> fantasai: But we should probably pull the alternate stylesheets out.
17:23:02 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
17:23:28 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Text probably needs to be split into 3 and 4 at this point, because there's a bunch of stable stuff like hyphens and text-decoration.
17:23:46 <tabatkins_> fantasai: And there's a lot of unstable stuff, like most of text-spacing and the whitespace collapsing things.
17:23:56 <tabatkins_> fantasai: So I'd like to split that down the middle and stabilize what's left.
17:24:10 <Rossen> Zakim: Microsoft.a is Rossen
17:24:10 <tabatkins_> florian: That's a reasonable suggestion, but since it's a large draft, I'd like some time to review what goes where.
17:24:29 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I'll post a proposed list after talking with Koji and Murakami-san about what to keep.
17:24:39 <tabatkins_> plinss: ARe there external dependencies on that spec from EPUB?
17:24:53 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Yes - we'll keep the parts they depend on.  We told them not to depend on text-spacing because it's unstable.
17:25:09 <tabatkins_> florian: In your message about what to split, can you put reasoning about why you want to keep or kick some things?
17:25:10 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Yes.
17:25:32 <tabatkins_> fantasai: GCPM we all know about.  Hakon just wanted to publish a new WD.
17:25:39 <arron> arron has joined #css
17:25:42 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think John Daggett would know more about Fonts.
17:26:04 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think the main things that are somewhat unstable are the superscript/subscript stuff.  I'm not sure what the status of the rest of the draft is, but it seems stabler, at least.
17:26:15 <tabatkins_> fantasai: So we'll have to wait for jdaggett to give us a proper status update.
17:26:41 <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai: ping jdaggett to send a status update on Fonts to the list
17:26:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-403 - Ping jdaggett to send a status update on Fonts to the list [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
17:27:09 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Box Model needs some very careful review and some syncing with 2.1.  It'll be in WD for a while.
17:27:14 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I believe Anton volunteered for this.
17:27:26 <tabatkins_> antonp: Bert and I had a chat about this, and the first step will be to sync with 2.1.
17:27:37 <tabatkins_> antonp: And then we'll visit new properties and such.
17:28:27 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Note that Bert's draft uses some slightly different terminology than 2.1 and defines the equivalency, and the new terms are less awkward to use.  We probably want to preserve those.
17:28:40 <tabatkins_> antonp: Okay, I'll use some judgement about what to keep in there.
17:29:11 <tabatkins_> Bert: I said I was going to publish a draft of Template - I haven't done that yet, but I'm working on it.
17:29:47 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Template and Grid doing nearly the exact same thing - I think the two should merge.
17:30:13 <tabatkins_> Bert: I agree - I've done some work on that.  Some bits from Regions, some from Grid, I've been working on integrating them.
17:30:33 <tabatkins_> Bert: And we should have a discussion in the WG about which features to keep and which are redundant.
17:30:42 <tabatkins_> Bert: Either at the next f2f or before that.
17:31:15 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think the next f2f we'll talk a lot about layout, so that'll be a good time.
17:31:27 <tabatkins_> smfr: And there are some google people starting impl of Grid into WebKit.
17:31:55 <danielweck> laptop microphone
17:31:58 <danielweck> :)
17:32:56 <Zakim> -danielweck
17:33:04 <tabatkins_> danielweck: On Speech, I'm still working through some feedback and some issues from the last conf call.
17:33:07 <danielweck> ok, let me continue with text:
17:33:29 <danielweck> didn't want to add issues on this conference call, but definitely next concall
17:34:08 <danielweck> will contact commenters again to check their respective positions on the near-resolved issues
17:34:40 <danielweck> (sorry for the loss of audio link and feedback problems....no idea what is going on)
17:34:46 <tabatkins_> fantasai: If the status is addressing LC comments, it should go to CR soon.
17:35:03 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Basic UI is in desperate need of being republished - the current /TR is a CR, but a lot has changed.
17:35:33 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I'm not sure if Tantek has any remaining open issues, but we should ask him to finish up and publish an LC.
17:35:45 <Zakim> +??P8
17:35:49 <tabatkins_> fantasai: CSS Scoping doesn't exist, so that's the status.
17:35:50 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P8 is me
17:35:51 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
17:36:01 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Grid Layout and Regions are still WD.
17:36:36 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: We should stabilize Grid quickly, given its gaining a second impl, but it may still need some tweaking.
17:37:52 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: For Flexbox, it's stabilizing nicely so far.  I expect a WD in the next month, and LC in a few months.
17:37:53 <tantek> Basic UI has open issues, but none that require more than editorial work as far as I know. The group discussed and resolved issues during the previous (Seattle) f2f.
17:38:07 <tantek> tabatkins_ noted :)
17:38:08 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Image Values has some issues, which I've been cleaning up.
17:38:17 <tantek> er, I mean, fantasai, noted :p
17:38:28 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Once we resolve the remaining Gradient issues, we should be able to get LC by end of Nov/early Dec at the latest.
17:38:32 <brianman_> any word on proposals A/B, radials?
17:38:53 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
17:39:30 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Brian asks about the proposal vote on the blog - last I looked, they appear pretty split, so this'll probably end up being a judgement call.
17:40:00 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Transforms are stable, but the specs are inadequate for interop right now, and that needs to be fixed.
17:40:14 <tabatkins_> smfr: They're also going to migrate to the combined FXTF spec, which Vincent is doing.
17:40:17 <tpod> tpod has joined #css
17:40:33 <tabatkins_> smfr: We agreed to publish an EOL WD of CSS Transforms, and point people to the combined spec.
17:41:10 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Other than the move, though, we're pretty much just in a state where once we fix the spec we're ready to advance?
17:41:24 <tabatkins_> smfr: Yes for 2d, 3d still has some larger issues.  Dropping prefixes on both may be difficult.
17:41:57 <tabatkins_> plinss: Who's working on tests for transforms?
17:42:11 <tabatkins_> smfr: We have some that Ted has done, and a bunch of testcases in our LayoutTests that need to be converted.
17:42:26 <tabatkins_> smfr: So we'll need an effort from vendors to contribute what they have, and somebody will work on a suite.
17:42:40 <tabatkins_> plinss: Ok.  Remember that we agreed that we want tests to demonstrate interop before prefixes can be dropped.
17:43:00 <tabatkins_> JohnJan: I think we agreed some time ago that we need somebody to be the test driver for a spec, but nobody's been named, so nothing's happening.
17:43:12 <fantasai> +1
17:43:23 <tabatkins_> plinss: We'll get back to that.
17:43:48 <tabatkins_> plinss: Transforms and Animations?
17:44:08 <tabatkins_> TabAtkins: I think it's in the same boat as 2d transforms - everyone's fine with the feature set, the spec just needs to be fixed.
17:44:27 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Conditional and Device Adaptation seem to be in the early WD stage.
17:44:47 <tabatkins_> plinss: Should they be marked as low priority?
17:44:53 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think we should hit on some of these.
17:45:12 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Selectors 4, there's been some pressure from Moz to get some of these to a state that can be unprefixed.
17:45:13 <plinss> s/Should they be marked as/Do we want to go over/
17:45:27 <tabatkins_> fantasai: That'd mean pulling out some into a level 5 draft.  Some of the selectors are very simple, some probably need more work.
17:46:20 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: On Lists, I'm happy with the spec and want to do a WD next week.  I need review, particular on positioning stuff, but then I'm comfortable with LC.
17:46:39 <tabatkins_> plinss: I think this information is valuable, and we should talk about it publicly.
17:46:56 <plinss> s/talk about/track/
17:47:21 <Bert> SHould I add Variables to the list?
17:47:57 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Variables has some issues to be resolved, but otherwise I think it will advance relatively quickly.
17:48:31 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: I'll request a WD in a few weeks.
17:48:38 <tabatkins_> fantasai: We should wait to list Variables until there's a WD.
17:48:50 <tabatkins_> plinss: We should have this summary put up on the wiki or somewhere.
17:49:11 <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai to summarize this discussion onto somewhere public (Current Work and wiki)
17:49:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-404 - Summarize this discussion onto somewhere public (Current Work and wiki) [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
17:49:30 <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: And I'll try to keep the wiki current as things advance.
17:49:39 <tabatkins_> plinss: So, test owners.  Who's going to own tests?
17:49:53 <tabatkins_> fantasai: High priority seems to be B&B, multicol, transforms, transitions, and animations.
17:50:10 <glazou> lol
17:50:24 <tabatkins_> JohnJan: I can own the B&B test suite.
17:51:00 <tabatkins_> howcome: I can own Multicol - we've written the tests already.
17:51:07 <brad> brad has joined #css
17:51:22 <glazou> what needs howcome  is the word "summon" :-D
17:51:46 <tabatkins_> howcome: Our last batch is comprehensive, we think, so we may not need more.  But if you think we need more, you may be volunteered to submit them.
17:51:59 <tabatkins_> plinss: I think the existing tests just need to be cleaned up and submitted.
17:52:12 <tabatkins_> plinss: So, Transforms, Transitions, and Animations?
17:53:04 <tabatkins_> plinss: Has anyone been working on tests for these?
17:53:07 <JohnJan> I need to leave the call. Sorry. I will begin working on B&B this week, though.
17:53:07 <oyvind> I am working on some tests for animations that could probably be submitted
17:53:22 <oyvind> not reftests, but JS
17:53:42 <tabatkins_> TabAtkins: JS tests are probably what we need for Animations anyway.
17:53:47 <tabatkins_> plinss: As long as they use test_harness.js
17:53:53 <tabatkins_> plinss: Nokia's been working on some tests too.
17:54:00 <tabatkins_> plinss: But we need someone to step up and own the testsuite.
17:54:27 <paul_irish> paul_irish has joined #css
17:54:43 <tabatkins_> plinss: No one's speaking up, so we need to talk about this later.
17:55:01 <tabatkins_> plinss: Anyone who's been working on it, ask around it and get someone to commit to own the testsuite, or else these specs aren't going anywhere.
17:55:11 <tabatkins_> plinss: Next request - invite Ben Schwartz as an IE.
17:55:14 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
17:55:25 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Vincent brought that up - Ben and Divya want to work on the spec restyling effort.
17:55:37 <tabatkins_> fantasai: And Ian Jacobs suggested the best way to sort out the IPR is to make him an IE somewhere.
17:55:51 <tabatkins_> plinss: And would give him a W3C account, etc.
17:55:55 <tabatkins_> plinss: Any objections?
17:56:14 <tabatkins_> RESOLVED: Invite Ben Schwarz as an Invited Expert
17:56:26 <tabatkins_> plinss: I'll send out the invite.
17:56:40 <tabatkins_> smfr: Ted is willing to be the testsuite owner for 2d and 3d transforms.
17:57:06 <tabatkins_> plinss: Hakon, you wanted to publish an update to GCPM?
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17:57:16 <tabatkins_> howcome: I made all the changes we agreed to at the f2f.
17:57:30 <tabatkins_> howcome: I'm using overflow-style, removed some bits, and added a big warning that there may be significant changes.
17:58:09 <tabatkins_> howcome: GCPM is a little unusual, it gets less mature as you scroll down, but that' snoted in the warning message.
17:58:19 <tabatkins_> plinss: Any objections to publishing an update?
17:58:31 <tabatkins_> RESOLVED: Publish a WD of GCPM
17:58:45 <tabatkins_> plinss: Let's talk about multicol spanners.
17:59:01 <tabatkins_> howcome: I'd like consensus on this.  It's about hwo spanners respond to collapsing.
17:59:09 <tabatkins_> howcome: Reading throught eh spec, it's not quite clear.
17:59:26 <tabatkins_> howcome: We can take the current text that says spanners create BFCs, which is allowed by the text.
17:59:39 <tabatkins_> howcome: That's alternative C in my email.
17:59:51 <alexmog> didn't we vote on colspans at f2f?
18:00:01 <tabatkins_> We didn't resolve, alex.
18:00:14 <Zakim> - +1.408.543.aabb
18:00:24 <tabatkins_> howcome: I'd like to go for what the spec currently says, which means option C.  I can live with other things, though.
18:01:04 <tabatkins_> plinss: My concern is that if someone has a series of elements that span, and the number of columns changes, I don't want the margins to change.
18:01:24 <tabatkins_> howcome: The option C does that, the others don't.
18:01:43 <tabatkins_> florian: I agree that the spec currently says C.  Unless there's a good reason, let's just settle on that.
18:01:53 <tabatkins_> florian: The most important in interop.  C is good, but if you dont' want it, justify it.
18:02:08 <tabatkins_> Rossen: Option C allows margin collapsing between spanners, right?
18:03:12 <tabatkins_> Rossen: We're trying to make multicol layout, which is distinct from block layout, act sanely.  Option C makes them act the same, so a single-column multicol and a non-multicol element work the same.
18:03:27 <tabatkins_> Rossen: We're trying to make them act more like floats, which don't collapse margins.
18:03:55 <glazou> smfr: plumbing ? :-p
18:04:38 <tabatkins_> Rossen: Unless we think it's important to have a 1-col element act the same as a non-multicol element, we should do something else.
18:04:46 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I don't think that was actually the reasoning for this.
18:05:11 <tabatkins_> howcome: 1-col multicol does act differently - a column-span:all element will still make a BFC.
18:05:20 <tabatkins_> howcome: And BFCs collapse.
18:05:28 <Zakim> -danielweck
18:06:03 <tabatkins_> kimberly: I've now heard three different explanations of this case, and each time I've changed my opinion as an author.
18:06:24 <tabatkins_> kimberly: Are we using consistent language when explaining this to the user community?
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18:06:46 <tabatkins_> florian: I think the language in the spec is specific, but non-obvious, but if you follow everything through, you get option C.
18:06:55 <bradk> It's after 10. I have to go. Bye.
18:07:15 <tabatkins_> plinss: Do we need more discussion, or concrete examples, or what?
18:07:27 <Zakim> -smfr
18:07:31 <tabatkins_> kimberly: I suggest putting the question to the blog.
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18:08:08 <tabatkins_> florian: I doubt most people will care/understand about this.
18:08:22 <tabatkins_> kimberly: We can sift through for the people who *do* understand, and target particular people who'll know about it.
18:08:34 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think people will care, but it's hard to understand.
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18:09:19 <tabatkins_> plinss: I suggest Hakon set up a webpage with visual examples, so authors can understand without talking about BFCs and what not.
18:09:25 <tabatkins_> fantasai: Can Kimberly write a blog post?
18:09:32 <Zakim> -glazou
18:09:34 <tabatkins_> kimberly: Yeah, let's do that.
18:09:46 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:09:55 <Zakim> -bradk
18:10:14 <tabatkins_> fantasai: I'm going to be in the East Coast in 2 weeks, and I can spend some time in Philly with Kimberly then.
18:10:23 <tabatkins_> howcome: I think that's fine.  I don't see an easy solution otherwise.
18:10:44 <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai and Kimberly to write a blog post about multicol spanning margins.
18:10:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-405 - And Kimberly to write a blog post about multicol spanning margins. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
18:10:47 <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aaff
18:10:48 <Zakim> -kimberly
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18:10:49 <Zakim> -antonp
18:10:50 <Zakim> -florian
18:10:52 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
18:10:53 <Zakim> -plinss
18:10:54 <Zakim> -Bert
18:10:57 <antonp> antonp has left #css
18:10:57 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:10:59 <Zakim> -tabatkins_
18:11:00 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:11:02 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +1.215.286.aaaa, plinss, kimberly, +1.408.543.aabb, +93550aacc, antonp, florian, +1.650.275.aadd, bradk, JohnJan, +1.408.636.aaee, [IPcaller], smfr,
18:11:07 <Zakim> ... danielweck, +47.21.65.aaff, Bert, +1.281.305.aagg, tabatkins_, [Microsoft]
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18:13:02 <Rossen> Zakim: Microsoft is Rossen
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19:05:45 <tantek> greetings folks
19:05:48 <tantek> from #w3conf
19:06:04 <tantek> howcome, et al, we should add a media query selector for "high contrast mode"
19:06:14 <fantasai> we know
19:06:16 <tantek> which is an accessibility feature of some platforms
19:06:21 <tantek> fantasai - URL?
19:06:24 <fantasai> that's been brought up multiple times over the past years
19:06:30 <tantek> fantasai - not useful response
19:06:31 <fantasai> I don't feel like digging up the minutes right now
19:06:31 <tantek> URL
19:06:34 <tantek> ok fine
19:06:38 <tantek> here is a URL
19:06:40 <tantek> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465764%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
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19:07:16 <fantasai> Tantek: We have agreement in the CSSWG to make a new Media Queries module with such features
19:07:22 <tantek> and btw, "brought up multiple times over the past years" and "don't feel like digging up the minutes" are exactly the problem with just sticking this stuff in email - it gets lost and is insufficiently findable
19:07:22 <fantasai> Tantek: We don't have an editor.
19:07:51 <fantasai> Tantek: It was discussed at the F2F two weeks ago
19:08:08 <fantasai> Tantek: I can dig those minutes up AFTER I FINISH FORMATTING THEM
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19:09:05 <thiagotpc2> Hi
19:09:21 <fantasai> and fixing all the typos, and making a summary etc. etc. etc.
19:10:13 <thiagotpc2> Someone works with css3-speech?
19:10:30 <fantasai> thiagotpc2: what's the question? I may be able to answer
19:11:41 <fantasai> tantek: here you go http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/a11yqueries
19:12:33 <thiagotpc2> fantasai, I like to know if opera will improve support to css3 speech in next minor or major version... today, basicaly support a fews properties
19:12:39 <tantek> fantasai - forget about it, already started writing it up in a more general place: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/mediaqueries-4
19:13:11 <fantasai> tantek: I don't know that querying the user is querying the media, but ok
19:13:24 <tantek> it's a mode of the device
19:13:29 <fantasai> tantek: can you at least use mediaqueries4 to be consistent with the other files that don't use dashes for the version number?
19:13:31 <tantek> it's not querying the user
19:13:37 <tantek> the user sets something in their system preferences
19:13:42 <tantek> just as they would set their display resolution
19:13:51 <tantek> ok
19:14:11 <fantasai> thiagotpc: I can't answer that question. :) You'll have to ask Opera.
19:14:32 <fantasai> thiagotpc: I haven't seen much interest from them on that point, though
19:14:50 <tantek> how do I move a page on the wiki
19:14:50 <tantek> ?
19:15:01 <fantasai> hmm, good question
19:15:28 <thiagotpc> and I would like to know too if other browser will to offer support to css3 speech to next version...
19:15:40 <fantasai> tantek: Ok, that seems to have worked
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19:15:54 <fantasai> tantek: it's in the Admin menu for me, not sure if it is for you
19:16:08 <fantasai> tantek: we have a non-standard plugin that does it...
19:16:38 <thiagotpc> fantasai, do you know other user agent that implements this?
19:16:41 <fantasai> thiagotpc: Seems unlikely, although there's some chance WebKit will look into it at some point
19:17:00 <fantasai> thiagotpc: emacs-w3 implements css2's speech properties
19:17:01 <tantek> fantasai - I don't have an Admin menu
19:17:16 <fantasai> thiagotpc: they're not quite the same
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19:17:27 <fantasai> tantek: k
19:18:22 <tantek> but better to have minutes than not
19:18:30 <tantek> and web searching rarely finds things in minutes
19:18:32 <tantek> not sure how to fix this
19:18:49 <fantasai> not sure either, given they are in the public archive
19:18:51 <tantek> other than doing active work directly on wikis instead
19:18:55 <fantasai> I do post summaries to the blog
19:19:04 <tantek> for some reason neither of those show up in web searches
19:19:05 <fantasai> but that doesn't get all the details, obviously
19:19:22 <tantek> but our wikis do
19:19:58 <fantasai> hm, they're indexed
19:20:00 <fantasai> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=816&bih=675&q=csswg+minutes+and+resolutions+site%3Awww.w3.org&oq=csswg+minutes+and+resolutions+site%3Awww.w3.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4311l6653l0l6749l16l15l0l12l0l2l365l787l2-2.1l3l0
19:20:05 <fantasai> just not showing up very well
19:20:22 <fantasai> very low pagerank or something
19:21:36 <fantasai> tantek: Well, anyway, the PFWG had some other items they wanted for that list you're making; we gave them an action item to come back with the actual list
19:21:44 <fantasai> tantek: wrt standardizing mq4, we need an editor
19:21:55 <fantasai> tantek: and I'm not volunteering :)
19:22:16 <tantek> sure that's fine
19:22:23 <tantek> contributions to the wiki page welcome
19:22:35 <tantek> I'll take my notes there rather than in emails on lists which just get lost and are unfindable
19:22:46 <fantasai> yeah, sure, that's way better idea
19:23:00 <fantasai> I didn't know MS had an implementation
19:23:13 <tantek> I didn't either until sylvaing just informed #w3conf
19:23:18 <fantasai> heh, ok
19:23:25 <fantasai> tell sylvaing to find an editor :D
19:24:26 <fantasai> ok, I'm going to go eat breakfast
19:24:40 <fantasai> or second breakfast, rather
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19:37:34 <hober> ugh
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20:23:14 <fantasai> tantek: sorry for being grumpy
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21:10:58 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Reviewing your edits to 'image-resolution', I don't think they're quite right.
21:11:17 <TabAtkins> Or, hm, maybe they are.  More thinking is required.
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21:46:35 <fantasai> TabAtkins: waiting for your verdict :)
21:48:09 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: HAPPY BUDDAYYYYYYY
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21:57:16 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Never mind, your edits are correct.
21:57:20 <TabAtkins> nimbupani: YAYYYYYYY
21:57:38 <nimbupani> TabAtkins: HOW U CELEBRATES?
21:58:31 <fantasai> TabAtkins: :)
21:59:48 <TabAtkins> nimbupani: Going out to eat tonight with the wife, and then the meadery on saturday!
22:00:26 <nimbupani> weeee! enjoyy
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