16:15:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF
16:15:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-irc
16:15:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:15:29 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF
16:15:31 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
16:15:31 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
16:15:32 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:15:32 <trackbot> Date: 15 November 2011
16:15:52 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Nov/0040.html
16:15:55 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
16:16:01 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:16:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:16:09 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make log public
16:16:32 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Boris
16:16:36 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Joerg
16:16:55 <mhausenblas> scribenick: mhausenblas
16:55:03 <Marcelo> Marcelo has joined #rdb2rdf
16:57:26 <ivan> Zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:57:26 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:57:27 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
16:57:28 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:58:22 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
16:58:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:58:28 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
16:58:30 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
16:58:38 <mhausenblas> present+ Ivan
16:58:42 <mhausenblas> present+ Michael
16:59:08 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:59:54 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ashok
17:00:00 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:00:29 <cygri> zakim, i'm with mhausenblas
17:00:29 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
17:00:30 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aabb
17:00:34 <mhausenblas> present+ Richard
17:00:48 <MacTed> Zakim, aabb is OpenLink_Software
17:00:48 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
17:00:52 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:00:52 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
17:00:54 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:00:54 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:00:57 <mhausenblas> present+ Ted
17:01:22 <mhausenblas> present+ Ashok
17:01:29 <mhausenblas> present+ Nuno
17:01:36 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
17:01:41 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:01:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, mhausenblas, Ashok_Malhotra, MacTed (muted)
17:01:41 <cygri> zakim, is ericP around?
17:01:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, Ashok, Marcelo, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, cygri, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, betehess, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:01:45 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri
17:01:45 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, cygri.
17:01:47 <nunolopes> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas 
17:01:49 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
17:02:06 <cygri> zakim, is ericP here?
17:02:06 <Zakim> cygri, I do not see EricP anywhere
17:02:17 <mhausenblas> Topic: Admin
17:02:17 <Ashok> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of F2F meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/11/08-RDB2RDF-minutes.html 
17:02:23 <mhausenblas> +1
17:02:33 <mhausenblas> RESOLVED: Accept the minutes of F2F meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/11/08-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
17:03:09 <Souri> Souri has joined #RDB2RDF
17:03:23 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:03:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:32 <Ashok> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:03:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, mhausenblas, Ashok_Malhotra, MacTed (muted)
17:03:34 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri, nunolopes
17:03:35 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
17:03:50 <mhausenblas> present+ Souri
17:03:55 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aacc is Souri 
17:03:55 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
17:04:15 <mhausenblas> Topic: LC Comments - DM
17:05:18 <dmcneil> dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
17:05:20 <cygri> q+ to say it doesn't apply to R2RML
17:05:31 <mhausenblas> Ashok: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Last_Call#14_DM_and_R2RML_should_use_same_datatype_mapping and  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Last_Call#15_DM:_PLUS_SIGN_character_in_value_of_a_pkey_column are open
17:05:39 <mhausenblas> Ashok: is this it?
17:05:41 <Zakim> + +1.314.394.aadd
17:05:50 <mhausenblas> present+ David
17:05:56 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aadd is dmcneil 
17:05:56 <Zakim> +dmcneil; got it
17:06:07 <mhausenblas> q?
17:06:29 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
17:06:29 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say it doesn't apply to R2RML
17:07:00 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#dfn-iri-safe
17:07:02 <mhausenblas> Richard: Re LC comment 15, I think this does not apply
17:07:45 <mhausenblas> ... issue pointed out by Souri only is relevant for DM
17:08:00 <Zakim> + +1.562.714.aaee
17:08:11 <mhausenblas> present+ Marcelo
17:08:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaee is Marcelo 
17:08:19 <Zakim> +Marcelo; got it
17:08:24 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:08:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:08:55 <mhausenblas> Marcelo: Not looked at the LC comments yet
17:08:55 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
17:08:55 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
17:08:57 <Zakim> +EricP
17:09:06 <mhausenblas> present+ Eric
17:09:52 <Souri> handling in R2RML: "R2RML always performs percent-encoding when IRIs are generated from string templates. If IRIs need to be generated without percent-encoding, then rr:column should be used instead of rr:template, with an R2RML view that performs the string concatenation."
17:09:54 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Juan looked at the DM LC comments and reported back to the WG that all but 14/15 have been minor
17:10:07 <ivan> q+
17:10:07 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Eric, can you confirm?
17:10:12 <mhausenblas> Eric: Looking at it now
17:10:17 <mhausenblas> ack ivan
17:10:18 <mhausenblas> q?
17:10:28 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Nov/0037.html
17:10:30 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
17:10:40 <mhausenblas> Ivan: this is the mail Juan sent earlier today
17:10:53 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaff
17:10:58 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
17:11:08 <Seema> Zakim, aaff is Seema
17:11:08 <Zakim> +Seema; got it
17:11:10 <mhausenblas> present+ Seema
17:11:20 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:11:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:11:31 <Souri> q+
17:12:15 <mhausenblas> Eric: I'm looking at Juan's message now
17:12:52 <cygri> +1!
17:13:18 <mhausenblas> Ivan: Comment re Appendix A
17:13:34 <mhausenblas> ... some small mistakes, confirmed to be fixed
17:13:53 <mhausenblas> Eric: Will send official response, yes
17:13:57 <mhausenblas> q?
17:14:33 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
17:14:51 <cygri> +1 to Souri
17:14:55 <mhausenblas> Souri: R2RML also has the encoding issue (re LC comment 15)
17:15:38 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Eric and Marcelo  - could you speak this issue from DM POV?
17:16:19 <mhausenblas> ericP: when creating the identifiers, someone parsing them needs to understand the escape characters, at least for boundaries
17:17:16 <mhausenblas> ... most aggressive escaping would result in all of the Unicode char in two or more UTFs
17:17:40 <mhausenblas> ... this is an argument against using the form-enc from HTML
17:18:04 <mhausenblas> ... we take a more relaxed approach in the DM
17:18:07 <mhausenblas> q?
17:18:20 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#dfn-iri-safe
17:18:32 <mhausenblas> Richard: this is what R2RML does ATM
17:18:55 <mhausenblas> ... so, anything that is not allowed in IRI or boundary char is PER encoded
17:19:12 <mhausenblas> ... fairly conservative encoding
17:19:41 <mhausenblas> ... we don't encode Unicode char in general
17:19:57 <mhausenblas> ... one difference between DM and R2RML is in the handling of spaces
17:20:45 <mhausenblas> Richard: there are two questions to it: 1) which chars to encode and 2) how to handle spaces
17:20:52 <Souri> space => '+' in DM vs. space => '%20' in R2RML
17:21:25 <mhausenblas> Richard: I argued for %20 as it doesn't clash with +
17:21:49 <mhausenblas> ... and also not intended as a general IRI escape
17:22:35 <mhausenblas> Eric: Counter use cases would be a 'cheesy' DM browser by leveraging an HTML form
17:22:59 <mhausenblas> Richard: Hmm ... how would you generate the URIs in this setup?
17:23:37 <mhausenblas> (Eric explains details via HTML form)
17:23:52 <mhausenblas> Richard: how exactly would this look like?
17:24:14 <mhausenblas> Eric: Guess there is no way getting around the '?', true
17:24:41 <mhausenblas> Richard: So, URI generation would be need
17:25:31 <mhausenblas> Michael:  see also http://xkr.us/articles/javascript/encode-compare/
17:25:33 <MacTed> +1 for percent encoding in all cases, losing the "+" space substitution special case
17:25:42 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Can we resolve this then?
17:26:29 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Eric, can you address LC comment 15 with this?
17:27:30 <mhausenblas> Michael: What's the resolution then?
17:28:10 <mhausenblas> Eric: Boundaries still unclear, spaces resolved, yes
17:28:46 <mhausenblas> Richard: IIRC we had an issue for this
17:28:50 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/67
17:28:50 <mhausenblas> ISSUE-67?
17:28:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- Separation characters for reference IRIs and row IRIs -- closed
17:28:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/67
17:29:49 <mhausenblas> Richard: where is this addressed in the DM?
17:30:46 <mhausenblas> Eric: Will try to figure out now -  we moved a bit around when addressing LC comments
17:30:47 <Ashok> Juan:  What is the latest version of the DM document?
17:30:52 <cygri> q+
17:30:56 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
17:31:34 <mhausenblas> Richard: It was closed before LC, and there is an info box in the DM - marked as open question
17:31:59 <mhausenblas> Richard: might make sense to re-open ISSUE-67, then?
17:32:31 <juansequeda> Ashok, it's http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directMapping/. Looks like ericP updated it recently
17:32:47 <ericP> is that Overview.html or Overview.xml ?
17:33:12 <juansequeda> Overview.xml
17:33:14 <ericP> tx
17:33:18 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:33:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:33:30 <cygri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Nov/0035.html
17:33:41 <ericP> so we're going to have to mix that with the LC 'cause Overview.xml is out of date with the LC
17:33:46 <ericP> (i think)
17:34:15 <mhausenblas> Richard: Re LC comment 14
17:34:39 <mhausenblas> ... I'm quite happy with the R2RML setting
17:34:57 <mhausenblas> ... DM should normatively reference it
17:35:11 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#datatype-conversions
17:35:27 <mhausenblas> Richard: re-worded it, still same behaviour 
17:35:43 <mhausenblas> ... makes it easier to reference it from DM
17:35:53 <mhausenblas> ... and added a note that points to XML Schema 1.1
17:36:24 <mhausenblas> Richard: addressed also limited precision issue
17:37:00 <mhausenblas> Richard: I proposed a change in the DM in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Nov/0035.html
17:37:26 <mhausenblas> Richard: DM would essentially sec. 10.2
17:37:53 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Would the DM Editors be ok with Richard's proposal?
17:37:58 <ericP> http://localhost/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directMapping/#defn-literal_map
17:38:03 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directMapping/#defn-literal_map
17:38:21 <mhausenblas> Eric: I was thinking about something smaller, see URL above
17:38:49 <mhausenblas> Eric: I agree that both should favour the canonical XML Schema/SQL form
17:39:40 <mhausenblas> ... if we use cast-to-str approach it might introduce backward compatibility issues
17:39:52 <mhausenblas> q?
17:40:29 <mhausenblas> Eric: I'd prefer a simple, short table - would be a sub-set of Richard's section
17:40:55 <Souri> Aside: Please confirm: what would be the generated IRI for EMAIL="John.Smith" in both R2RML (with rr:template "http://SCOTT.EMP#EMAIL-{EMAIL}") and in DM: http://SCOTT.EMP#EMAIL-John%2ESmith ?
17:41:08 <cygri> q+
17:42:17 <mhausenblas> Ashok: So, RDF uses the XML Schema form
17:42:35 <mhausenblas> Eric: yes, max. graph merges
17:42:41 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
17:43:23 <mhausenblas> Richard: re user defined types, the spec can't define behaviour beyond very generic things
17:44:06 <mhausenblas> ... the 'try-to-cast-to-str' is more helpful than not saying anything
17:44:42 <mhausenblas> Richard: Giving some default handling for this helps interop
17:45:39 <mhausenblas> Eric: All user defined types things should be notes/implementer hints then?
17:45:44 <mhausenblas> Ashok: yes
17:46:12 <mhausenblas> Richard: R2RML does use note re user defined types already, yes
17:46:21 <mhausenblas> Ashok: seems we're in agreement re user defined types
17:46:34 <mhausenblas> ... what about canonical forms
17:46:57 <mhausenblas> Richard: Dunno difference between SQL and XSD canonical form
17:47:22 <mhausenblas> ... not convinced we need canonical forms at all
17:47:47 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Good to use canonical form for interop reasons
17:48:02 <Zakim> -Souri
17:48:09 <mhausenblas> Richard: If your processor is aware of datatypes, then no problem
17:48:38 <mhausenblas> ... if not aware, then you'd get the identical string representation, but only for equality
17:48:49 <mhausenblas> ... not a huge advantage IMO
17:49:10 <mhausenblas> (Souri had to leave the telecon)
17:49:38 <mhausenblas> Richard: Still not clear what the XSD canonical forms are
17:50:07 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Wondering how we should advance then, here ...
17:50:31 <mhausenblas> Richard: Yes, it's not a huge advantage and it is expensive, sorta
17:50:50 <mhausenblas> Eric: Would help, for example, in SPARQL queries
17:51:05 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:51:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:51:42 <mhausenblas> Richard: IMO would be better if the underling RDF processor handles this rather than in our realm
17:52:20 <mhausenblas> Eric: I would like to see input normalisation as part of the spec/conformance
17:52:43 <mhausenblas> Richard: It's important to have a deterministic output, yes
17:52:56 <mhausenblas> ... we need to pick some kind of normalization
17:53:57 <mhausenblas> ... but we would also get it by applying SQL canonical form
17:54:28 <mhausenblas> Richard: RDF also defines it, underlying software is expected to implement it
17:55:21 <mhausenblas> Eric: I think that a large number SPARQL engines do only RDF entailment 
17:55:56 <mhausenblas> Richard: True, but that's a general problem - doesn't improve if we address it in RDB2RDF
17:56:25 <mhausenblas> ... makes our job harder where it really should be resolved on a larger scale
17:56:55 <mhausenblas> Eric: In SPARQL there is a distinction between FILTER and graph match
17:57:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
17:57:50 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
17:58:04 <mhausenblas> ... we should ask what we expect what people do - should people write it in a canonical form or not?
17:58:16 <MacTed> q+
17:58:42 <mhausenblas> Richard: RDF doesn't say how to canonicalise, but during query time
17:58:48 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
17:59:03 <mhausenblas> Ted: Level of canonicalisation varies a lot
17:59:34 <mhausenblas> ... age, for example, does this mean years, etc?
17:59:54 <mhausenblas> Ted: Too many special cases, we can't cater for
17:59:56 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:59:56 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
18:00:25 <mhausenblas> Ashok: we will carry on via email
18:00:54 <mhausenblas> Ashok: this issue and translate tables are the two big ones left
18:01:11 <mhausenblas> Michael: I'm on travel next week
18:01:28 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Will send out the agenda then
18:01:32 <Zakim> -Marcelo
18:01:35 <Zakim> -Seema
18:01:36 <Zakim> -dmcneil
18:01:36 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:01:37 <mhausenblas> meeting adjourned
18:01:43 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:01:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
18:03:23 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
18:04:49 <mhausenblas> trackbot, end telecon
18:04:49 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:04:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, +3539149aaaa, mhausenblas, Ashok_Malhotra, cygri, +1.781.273.aabb, MacTed, nunolopes, +1.603.897.aacc, Souri, +1.314.394.aadd,
18:04:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:04:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html trackbot
18:04:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:04:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:04:53 <Zakim> ... dmcneil, +1.562.714.aaee, Marcelo, EricP, +1.603.897.aaff, Seema