IRC log of ua on 2011-11-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:19:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:19:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc
17:19:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:19:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:19:17 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:19:17 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 41 minutes
17:19:18 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:19:18 [trackbot]
Date: 10 November 2011
17:20:16 [JAllan]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
17:20:27 [JAllan]
regrets+ JanR
17:43:20 [JAllan]
regrets+ MarkH
17:43:28 [JAllan]
Agenda+ TPAC Recap
17:43:30 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html
17:43:31 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work.
17:43:33 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review any proposals sent to list
17:43:34 [JAllan]
Agenda+ - Final yes/no voting for SC in section 2 not completed at TPAC
17:58:50 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:58:57 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:59:19 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:59:26 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:59:48 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:00:30 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:01:13 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:01:13 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
18:02:14 [Zakim]
+??P0
18:02:21 [sharper]
zakim, ??P0 is sharper
18:02:21 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:03:11 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
18:03:18 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:04:04 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
18:04:12 [JAllan]
http://test.tsbvi.edu/generated.htm
18:04:22 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
18:05:05 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:05:05 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:05:07 [Zakim]
1. TPAC Recap [from JAllan]
18:05:09 [Zakim]
2. Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html [from JAllan]
18:05:12 [Zakim]
3. Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work. [from JAllan]
18:05:14 [Zakim]
4. Review any proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:05:16 [Zakim]
5. - Final yes/no voting for SC in section 2 not completed at TPAC [from JAllan]
18:05:30 [JAllan]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford
18:05:30 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:07:19 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:08:50 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:08:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "TPAC Recap" taken up [from JAllan]
18:10:04 [JAllan]
kf: appreciate those in person, and Simon for calling in.
18:10:25 [JAllan]
... lots of work. good sense of where we are, where going.
18:11:30 [JAllan]
... publishing moratorium winter holidays
18:11:44 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
18:11:44 [Zakim]
agendum 1, TPAC Recap, closed
18:11:46 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:11:48 [Zakim]
2. Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html [from JAllan]
18:11:51 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
18:11:51 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html" taken up [from
18:11:55 [Zakim]
... JAllan]
18:13:14 [JAllan]
gl: not changes much. changed wording from style sheet to style profiles
18:13:27 [JAllan]
kf: is something missing?
18:13:49 [JAllan]
gl: current ones are same as wayne's. as they are they are pretty good
18:14:57 [JAllan]
ja: thought we discussed these at the f2f
18:17:22 [JAllan]
js: reason we are not using 'stylesheets'
18:17:46 [JAllan]
kf: technology specific. trying to make agnostic.
18:17:59 [Greg]
I lean towards the phrase "style sheets and equivalent".
18:18:03 [JAllan]
gl: like using terms reader understands
18:18:12 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:18:34 [JAllan]
ja: +1 to gl
18:20:06 [JAllan]
kp: neutral on wording
18:21:04 [JAllan]
kf: editorially, do we need to use 'or equivalent'
18:21:52 [JAllan]
kp: style profile is awkward, but must use style sheets and equivalent" every time for folks will get confused
18:21:55 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:22:27 [JAllan]
... if only stylesheets people will narrowly define in their head
18:23:07 [JAllan]
js: if not using 'stylesheets' suggest 'presentation profiles' to abstract further
18:23:43 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:23:59 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:23:59 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:24:01 [Zakim]
2. Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html [from JAllan]
18:24:05 [Zakim]
3. Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work. [from JAllan]
18:24:08 [Zakim]
4. Review any proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:24:10 [Zakim]
5. - Final yes/no voting for SC in section 2 not completed at TPAC [from JAllan]
18:24:35 [JAllan]
kp: leaning more toward 'style profiles', wording is better in context. helps people think wider
18:25:17 [JAllan]
kf: are there other styles
18:25:41 [JAllan]
kp: nice to define a vocabulary. will need define 'style profile'
18:28:29 [Greg]
It looks like Wayne's changes amount to (a) adding 1.7.0, (b) replacing term "style sheet" with "style profile", and (c) in 1.7.1 changing "turn off" to "turn on or off" and "every author style sheet defined" to "every author profile".
18:28:32 [JAllan]
kf: put in document as is, in status changes for new Working Draft - ask for feedback. There may be other ways to do this let us know. Include definition of 'style profile'
18:29:04 [JAllan]
kp: Dragon switched to using profile, and it made more sense to users
18:29:47 [JAllan]
kf: have intents for all of these except the new 1.7.0, Jeanne can you put in document
18:30:07 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to add Wayne Dick's proposal for 1.7 to the document
18:30:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-657 - Add Wayne Dick's proposal for 1.7 to the document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-17].
18:31:34 [JAllan]
action: jallan to add column about IER presence on the uaag-total table
18:31:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-658 - Add column about IER presence on the uaag-total table [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-17].
18:32:08 [JAllan]
gl: should we add glossary terms proposed by wayne to glossary.
18:32:42 [JAllan]
... seems convoluted to add 4 additional paragraphs to support a 1 line def. of 'style profile'
18:33:33 [JAllan]
... should be able to come up with a shorter definition that does not require the other support info.
18:33:49 [Greg]
I think we can define "style sheet" or "style profile" such that we don't need to introduce and define two new terms ("style rule" and "style grouping"), which I think just confuse the reader and the document.
18:34:35 [kford]
Action: kford to send mail to Wayne asking him to revise and simplify glossary definitions.
18:34:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-659 - Send mail to Wayne asking him to revise and simplify glossary definitions. [on Kelly Ford - due 2011-11-17].
18:34:51 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
18:34:51 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html, closed
18:34:54 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:34:56 [Zakim]
3. Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work. [from JAllan]
18:35:02 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
18:35:02 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work." taken up [from JAllan]
18:36:13 [JAllan]
test.tsbvi.edu/uaag-total.htm
18:36:27 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
18:37:46 [mhakkinen]
* irc only
18:38:54 [JAllan]
kf: how to address the 'no' items
18:40:34 [JAllan]
kf: everybody look through action items and close those that should be closed.
18:42:34 [JAllan]
kf: team will assign 'no' items to appropriate folks
18:43:10 [JAllan]
ja: there are 22 items with no associated action items
18:43:18 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
18:43:18 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work., closed
18:43:20 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:43:21 [Zakim]
4. Review any proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:43:53 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
18:43:53 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review any proposals sent to list" taken up [from JAllan]
18:46:05 [JAllan]
close action-591
18:46:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-591 Create table with comments and group responses. closed
18:46:49 [kford]
Scribe: kford
18:47:07 [kford]
JA: Talking about action 650 and looking at CSS generated contnet not appearing in the DOM.
18:47:17 [kford]
JA: I couldn't find this in the DOM.
18:47:40 [kford]
JA: Correction I couldn't find this in the HTML5 spec.
18:48:11 [kford]
JA: I don't know if we need this as a SC to ensure it doens't go away.
18:48:30 [kford]
'GLP: Do we need a generic SC that generated content is one example.
18:49:57 [kford]
GL: Do we want something that says everything presented to the user must be available programatically.
18:50:21 [kford]
GL: Do we then want something that talks about ensuring this is done in an easy fashion e.g. DOM and accessibility API?
18:53:02 [JAllan]
action: jallan review css spec for generated text in the dom, and propose adding information to the a11y api
18:53:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-660 - Review css spec for generated text in the dom, and propose adding information to the a11y api [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-17].
18:53:26 [JAllan]
close action action-650
18:53:37 [JAllan]
close action-650
18:53:50 [JAllan]
close action-650
18:53:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-650 Review generated css content in html5 closed
18:54:26 [JAllan]
Action-630
18:54:28 [JAllan]
1.8x Maintain Point of Regard::
18:54:30 [kford]
JA: My other action was 630 around point of regard.
18:54:30 [JAllan]
When user changes viewport size or scales the content, maintain the current point of regard.
18:54:32 [JAllan]
Intent: Keep as much of the current content in the viewport when the viewport changes size or the user scales content/ It can be disorienting and confusing when a user changes the viewports size and the current content shifts out of the viewport and different content on the same page is displayed. Pint the top-left corner (or top-right corner for RTL languages) to the viewport regardless of...
18:54:33 [JAllan]
...viewport size or scale. If an element has focus in the viewport keep the focused element in the viewport after resizing or scaling.
18:55:24 [JAllan]
s/Pint/Point
18:55:28 [kford]
GL: I think this is not using the point of regard correctly.
18:56:15 [kford]
JA: The intent reflects what I think needs to happen.
18:56:39 [Greg]
I think this is misusing the term "point of regard". Per the definition, "point of regard" is the thing the user is presumed to be looking at, so it's not really up to the user agent to "maintain it", but rather to keep it within the visible portion of the viewport.
18:57:50 [kford]
JA: Some people might get confused and say it is the center that is the point of regard.
18:58:07 [kford]
JA: I think the most consistent is the top left corner.
18:59:07 [kford]
Action: kford to send proposed assignments for SC needing attention to list based on Jim's spreadsheet.
18:59:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-661 - Send proposed assignments for SC needing attention to list based on Jim's spreadsheet. [on Kelly Ford - due 2011-11-17].
18:59:42 [kford]
GL and JA talking further about exactly what is meant here.
19:03:40 [JAllan]
kelly and jim discussing orientation examples
19:07:30 [JAllan]
kf: 2 examples, 1-keeping top left corner pinned, 2 - keep the focused element in the same relative position in the revised viewport
19:11:21 [JAllan]
keep the focused element in the same relative position in the revised content in the viewport
19:11:34 [Greg]
Perhaps "The point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport when the viewport is resized or the view within the viewport is scaled." (Too many uses of "viewport", though.)
19:11:44 [JAllan]
gl: why in the intent and not the SC
19:11:59 [JAllan]
ja: didn't want make the SC too prescriptive
19:12:40 [JAllan]
kp: would like to strongly suggest UA does one of the two solutions. they are good cognitively.
19:13:23 [JAllan]
... would be better for all UA to do the same way.
19:13:47 [JAllan]
js: is something is focused it should have priority
19:14:01 [kford]
KP: Liking the staying geographically oriented solution.
19:14:27 [Greg]
I consider the point of regard to be the text cursor location, or the active end of the selection, or the focus element, or highlighted search results, or the leading edge of the viewport (bottom edge when scrolling down, or top edge when scrolling up), *whichever changed most recently*.
19:16:11 [JAllan]
The point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport when the viewport is resized or is scaled.
19:17:11 [KimPatch]
When user changes viewport size or scales the content the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport
19:17:51 [KimPatch]
When user changes viewport size or scales content the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport.
19:18:24 [kford]
GL: 1. I can resize. 2. I can change the zoom ratio. 3. What happens when I'm showing text and change the font of some of the text.
19:18:38 [JAllan]
ja: resize = changing window size, scale=change size of contnet
19:18:42 [kford]
GL: Do I need to resize to continue to show the cursor?
19:18:52 [JAllan]
s/contnet/content
19:19:13 [Greg]
If "scale" means change the zoom ratio, then "resizing the content" might mean changing font size, etc.
19:19:37 [KimPatch]
When user changes viewport or content size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport
19:20:51 [Greg]
"When the user changes the viewport's size or scaling, or the size of its content,..."?
19:21:22 [KimPatch]
When user changes viewport, content, or font size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport
19:23:53 [kford]
Group continues to talk about definitions of what actions should be covered here.
19:23:56 [KimPatch]
When user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport
19:24:43 [KimPatch]
When the user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport
19:25:50 [kford]
GL: Does this need to be optional?
19:26:11 [kford]
group says yes, user should be able to override.
19:26:19 [KimPatch]
When the user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport, by default
19:26:48 [KimPatch]
By default, when the user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport.
19:27:21 [kford]
GL: Did we decide this doesn't cover changes that the user did n't cause?
19:27:44 [JAllan]
action: jallan to resubmit revised 1.8.x from action-630
19:27:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-662 - Resubmit revised 1.8.x from action-630 [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-17].
19:31:48 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:31:53 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:32:05 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:32:13 [JAllan]
no meeting in 2 weeks - US thanksgiving
19:32:27 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:32:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:32:51 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
19:33:20 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-actions.rdf :
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add Wayne Dick's proposal for 1.7 to the document [1]
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-30-07
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to add column about IER presence on the uaag-total table [2]
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-31-34
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford to send mail to Wayne asking him to revise and simplify glossary definitions. [3]
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-34-35
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan review css spec for generated text in the dom, and propose adding information to the a11y api [4]
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-53-02
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford to send proposed assignments for SC needing attention to list based on Jim's spreadsheet. [5]
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-59-07
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to resubmit revised 1.8.x from action-630 [6]
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T19-27-44