15:55:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:55:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-rdf-wg-irc
15:55:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:55:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:55:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:55:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
15:55:10 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:55:10 <trackbot> Date: 09 November 2011
15:56:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:56:36 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg
15:56:36 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aaaa
15:57:38 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:50 <MacTed> I can't make today's call, but hoped I could throw a few words in quickly about graph (and other) identification...
15:58:51 <MacTed> URIs may well be defined as "global in scope" as Pat frequently states -- but people just don't use names or any other identifier consistently in any space, and I am convinced that RDF/WWW/GGG/BBQ will be no different.
15:58:51 <MacTed> Most people may agree that <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tomato> denotes the red fruit (as the /page/ currently states) -- but plenty of authors will say that it may be a generic term for a woman of the 1920s (see <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tomato>).
15:58:51 <MacTed> Graphs (Gsnaps, Gboxes, Gtexts, etc.) are no different than anything else.  People have used and use do and will use URIs incorrectly.  
15:58:52 <Zakim> +??P4
15:58:54 <MacTed> We have to accept and work with that, or nothing we do will be worth the doing except within the rarified world of logic.
15:58:54 <Zakim> -??P4
15:58:54 <Zakim> +??P4
15:58:57 <MacTed> "Local context" is a fact of life, and RDF having originally been defined *within an isolated context* should not prevent its evolving to recognize that fact.
15:58:59 <swh> Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:58:59 <Zakim> +swh; got it
15:59:09 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:59:09 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:59:10 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:59:19 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aabb
15:59:19 <MacTed> and with that bombshell.... :-)
15:59:49 <davidwood> Zakim, +aabb is me
15:59:49 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'
15:59:56 <davidwood> Zakim, 11bb is me
15:59:57 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named '11bb'
16:00:06 <davidwood> *curses new keyboard
16:00:17 <davidwood> Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:17 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
16:00:21 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aacc
16:01:01 <davidwood> We need a scribe for today
16:01:05 <davidwood> Please volunteer
16:01:27 <cygri_> cygri_ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:28 <Zakim> + +1.415.309.aadd
16:01:32 <yvesr> yvesr has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:37 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, aadd is me
16:01:37 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it
16:01:43 <Scott_Bauer> Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:47 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
16:01:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:02:01 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:01 <Zakim> +??P15
16:02:07 <zwu2> zakim, code?
16:02:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
16:02:15 <Zakim> + +3539149aaee
16:02:20 <mischat> zakim ??P15 is me 
16:02:22 <cygri_> zakim, aaee is me
16:02:22 <Zakim> +cygri_; got it
16:02:29 <mischat> zakim, ??15 is me 
16:02:29 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??15'
16:02:34 <cgreer2> zakim aaaa is me
16:02:41 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaff
16:02:45 <cgreer2> zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:45 <Zakim> +cgreer2; got it
16:02:47 <mischat> zakim, ??P15 is me
16:02:47 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
16:02:56 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is cgreer2
16:02:56 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:02:57 <zwu2> zakim, aaff is me
16:02:58 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
16:03:22 <Zakim> +Tony
16:03:32 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
16:03:32 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:03:32 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
16:04:02 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
16:04:10 <davidwood> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:10 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mischat
16:04:14 <Zakim> +??P24
16:04:16 <davidwood> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:16 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cygri_
16:04:31 <cygri> scribe: cygri
16:04:58 <cygri> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.09
16:05:06 <cygri> chair: David Wood
16:05:11 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:05:11 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:05:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:24 <cygri> topic: Admin
16:05:25 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
16:05:25 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:05:34 <cygri> davidwood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 2 Nov telecon
16:05:36 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
16:05:39 <cygri>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-11-02
16:05:46 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (91%)
16:05:49 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept the minutes of the 2 Nov telecon
16:06:01 <cygri> topic: Action item review
16:06:02 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:06:13 <cygri> davidwood: lots of open actions, and none pending review
16:06:24 <cygri> ... do we have danbri today? apparently not
16:07:37 <cygri> ACTION-94?
16:07:37 <trackbot> ACTION-94 -- Richard Cyganiak to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) -- due 2011-10-12 -- OPEN
16:07:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94
16:08:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:08:15 <Zakim> +??P27
16:08:26 <cygri> cygri: no progress on my actions
16:08:43 <cygri> ... not sure about ACTION-94, i don't think i can do a great job on that, too many discussions have happend
16:09:00 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aahh
16:09:12 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:21 <gavinc> ... what might I pick up?
16:09:21 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aaii
16:09:38 <davidwood> gavinc: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94
16:09:53 <cygri> davidwood: cygri, can you mail the list to ask for new volunteer?
16:10:35 <cygri> ... goal is to update the page, comment on which proposals went nowhere, which technical issues are open etc ... best-effort
16:10:55 <cygri> gavinc: i can do that
16:11:10 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:11:32 <cygri> davidwood: i'll take care of some of the editorial actions
16:11:37 <gavinc> ACTION-94?
16:11:37 <trackbot> ACTION-94 -- Gavin Carothers to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) -- due 2011-10-12 -- OPEN
16:11:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94
16:11:51 <cygri> ACTION-106?
16:11:51 <trackbot> ACTION-106 -- Gavin Carothers to add link from Turtle datatypes section to recommended list in concepts -- due 2011-11-09 -- OPEN
16:11:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/106
16:12:21 <cygri> ACTION-105?
16:12:21 <trackbot> ACTION-105 -- Richard Cyganiak to contact pat and peter and make sure they are ok with putting list of XSD types into RDF Concepts -- due 2011-10-20 -- OPEN
16:12:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/105
16:12:45 <cygri> gavinc: i might do ACTION-105 too
16:13:05 <cygri> q+
16:13:22 <mischat> the dateTime duration isn't in RDFie stuff 
16:13:23 <JeremyCarroll> q+
16:13:58 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
16:13:58 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:14:04 <ericP> q+ to ask if we want to encourage canonical forms of XSD datatypes
16:14:39 <cygri> jeremycarroll: did we do anything about xsd duration?
16:14:50 <cygri> ... one group improved the duration types
16:15:00 <cygri> ... the type used to be unusable
16:15:18 <cygri> ... the problems with it were fixed somewhere. don't remember where
16:15:33 <sandro> I see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/ is currently in CR (for 4 months so far).
16:15:42 <cygri> ACTION: JeremyCarroll to check status of duration datatypes
16:15:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-117 - Check status of duration datatypes [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-11-16].
16:15:54 <Zakim> +??P31
16:16:01 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me
16:16:01 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:16:03 <ericP> this is different from owl time which, iirc, atomized the components of the time?
16:16:06 <AndyS> Several technical XML ones - qname, NOTATION, token
16:16:07 <cygri> pfps: i updated the action to include something on owl
16:16:08 <cygri> q-
16:16:12 <cygri> ack JeremyCarroll 
16:16:34 <davidwood> ack ericP
16:16:34 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if we want to encourage canonical forms of XSD datatypes
16:16:40 <sandro> +1
16:16:43 <cygri> ericP: do we want to encourage canonical forms of xsd types
16:16:47 <Zakim> + +33.4.77.42.aajj
16:16:47 <JeremyCarroll> q+
16:16:54 <cygri> davidwood: i like that
16:17:00 <JeremyCarroll> ack
16:17:06 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:17:09 <AZ> Zakim, +33.4.77.42.aajj is me
16:17:09 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:17:34 <AndyS> q+
16:17:39 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: the canonical form for decimal and int are different
16:18:01 <cygri> ... getting the canonical stuff right is hard
16:18:31 <cygri> davidwood: there were lots of email messages on 1 vs 1.0
16:18:54 <cygri> ericP: and yet it seems to be desirable
16:18:57 <gavinc> I think XSD 2 does a good job of listing the canonical form of all them now?
16:19:09 <AndyS> This is fixed now.
16:19:13 <cygri> davidwood: we could ignore this completely, or do only the simple ones, or do all
16:19:14 <swh> yes
16:19:19 <AndyS> q?
16:20:05 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:20:18 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: every solution will make someone unhappy. perhaps better to do nothing
16:20:31 <mischat> wishes there was a better solution than http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/gregorian-interval/2010-07-19T00:00:00/P0Y0M0DT0H30M
16:20:35 <cygri> ACTION: JeremyCarroll to summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization
16:20:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - Summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-11-16].
16:20:52 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-1/
16:20:56 <cygri> AndyS: canonical form for integer changes in XSD 1.1
16:21:04 <cygri> ... integer is now "1", no longer "1.0"
16:21:15 <cygri> davidwood: this might make it tractable for us
16:21:31 <cygri> AndyS: owl has normative dependency on XSD 1.1
16:21:45 <cygri> davidwood: so we almost have an obligation to handle this too
16:21:55 <cygri> AndyS: depends … is this may, should, must?
16:22:05 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me
16:22:05 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:22:09 <cygri> davidwood: charter says we should align RDF with other recommendations and best practices
16:22:16 <cygri> ... seems this is worthy of our time
16:22:26 <cygri> AndyS: it's good to put in some text to encourage it
16:22:44 <cygri> davidwood: i'd be happy with a should
16:23:43 <cygri> davidwood: anybody willing to take an action on summarizing the work that would need to be done?
16:23:47 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
16:23:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:24:19 <cygri> ... i think that touches semantics too
16:24:22 <cygri> pfps: why?
16:24:35 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: as andy said, the value is what matters
16:24:46 <cygri> ... one school of thought: we don't care how you write down the value
16:25:13 <cygri> ... other school of thought: the value is what you write
16:25:21 <ericP> but RDF has little more logic can graph equivalence so the lexical form is critical
16:25:28 <cygri> ... unlikely that there's consensus
16:25:34 <ericP> q+ to talk about SPARQL
16:25:45 <mischat> fwiw, as it stands, RDF Semantic states that xsd:duration shouldn't be used : http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#DTYPEINTERP
16:25:48 <cygri> davidwood: what does SPARQL say about this?
16:25:59 <Zakim> +??P34
16:25:59 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me
16:26:00 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:26:11 <cygri> ericP: there's a difference between RDF graph equivalence and xpath equivalence
16:26:14 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P34 is me
16:26:14 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:26:24 <AndyS> q+ to update Eric's answer for SPARQL 1.1 :-)
16:26:30 <JeremyCarroll> machat, yes duration is broken ... iw was well known when xsd 1.0 came out
16:26:38 <davidwood> ack ericP
16:26:38 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to talk about SPARQL
16:26:40 <JeremyCarroll> they were out of time
16:26:42 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:26:42 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to update Eric's answer for SPARQL 1.1 :-)
16:26:53 <cygri> AndyS: SPARQL 1.1 has D-entailment which gives value-based processing
16:27:04 <cygri> ericP: but that's not regular sparql processing?
16:27:15 <cygri> AndyS: it's not in the lowest form of processing
16:27:29 <cygri> davidwood: you can get around all of that with filters?
16:27:39 <cygri> AndyS: yes, not all engines do it
16:28:36 <cygri> topic: Named Graphs
16:28:46 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0025.html
16:30:04 <cygri> pfps: i thought named graphs should show up in rdf concepts without changing semantics
16:30:13 <cygri> ... now we talk about changing semantics
16:30:23 <cygri> ... i disagree with a lot of that, and the rest i don't understand
16:30:37 <danbri> we're talking about this proposal, right? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0019.html
16:30:39 <cygri> davidwood: do you disagree with andy's position on this?
16:31:11 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
16:31:11 <Zakim> sorry, gavinc, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:31:19 <gavinc> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see cgreer2, swh, Ivan, davidwood, +1.781.899.aacc, JeremyCarroll (muted), mischat, cygri_, zwu2, Scott_Bauer, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.603.897.aagg, yvesr, AndyS,
16:31:22 <Zakim> ... danbri, +1.707.861.aahh, +1.617.324.aaii, ??P31, AZ, yvesr.a
16:31:29 <gavinc> Zakim, aahh is me
16:31:29 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
16:31:33 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
16:31:33 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
16:31:52 <cygri> pfps: i'm worried about the idea that named graphs has to do with the current state of the semantic web
16:32:10 <danbri> I tried to write up the dilbert scenario http://danbri.org/words/2011/11/03/753 just so it's documented as a scenario (without assuming any particular approach)
16:32:12 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to stromgly disagree with peter :)
16:32:13 <pfps> I worry very much about anything that puts the current state of the Web into RDF Semantics.
16:32:39 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
16:32:39 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:32:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:32:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to stromgly disagree with peter :)
16:33:08 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: W3C is a web consortium. the state of the web is fundamentally interesting
16:33:52 <cygri> q+
16:34:02 <pfps> q+
16:34:04 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me
16:34:04 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:34:18 <danbri> (I don't see 'current state of the Web' in pat's proposal; maybe I read too fast)
16:34:31 <cygri> q-
16:34:31 <cygri> q+
16:35:26 <JeremyCarroll> me thinks there is a transatlantic misunderstanding about domestic incidents
16:36:29 <davidwood> q?
16:36:49 <cygri> AndyS: in that message i tried to capture the notion that there's a two-stop process in going from trig file to graph. name goes to something, something goes to graph
16:37:02 <cygri> ... the named graphs paper says the relation is "denote"
16:37:23 <cygri> ... n3 says it's the owl:sameAs relation
16:37:37 <cygri> ... but other things are possible. "it's where i downloaded it from"
16:37:57 <gavinc> Zakim, who is talking
16:37:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', gavinc
16:37:58 <cygri> ... that's what ppl often do because it's convenient, even though it's a time-varying relationship
16:38:00 <gavinc> Zakim, who is talking?
16:38:12 <Zakim> gavinc, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (81%), danbri (17%)
16:38:14 <cygri> ... Sandro talked about writing down good practice
16:38:37 <cygri> ... the good practice would be to fix the second step to "denote"
16:38:54 <danbri> yes - good to write down best practice; not clear what best practice actually *is*
16:39:04 <pfps> q-
16:39:07 <davidwood> ack pfps
16:39:14 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:39:19 <Zakim> +??P1
16:39:21 <swh> +1 to danbri 
16:40:13 <AndyS> Agree there is > 1 "good practice"
16:40:57 <AndyS> ... maybe, "patterns", or "ways to use the machinery"
16:42:03 <AZ> +1 cygri
16:42:13 <davidwood> q?
16:42:27 <cygri> cygri: i think we can handle "state of the web" without going into semantics
16:43:05 <cygri> ... awww, REST etc already handle "state of the web" well, and it might be less dangerous to leave the relationship of that to the RDF data model a bit fuzzy
16:43:13 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise?
16:43:17 <zwu2> too much noise
16:43:19 <Zakim> - +1.617.324.aaii
16:43:26 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (16%), cygri_ (5%), Peter_Patel-Schneider (9%)
16:43:52 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
16:43:52 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:44:06 <cygri> zakim, cygri_ is me
16:44:06 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:45:03 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aakk
16:45:13 <ericP> Zakim, aakk is me
16:45:13 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
16:45:40 <sandro> q?
16:45:43 <sandro> q+
16:45:48 <cygri> AndyS: i wasn't trying to propose a conceptual model, but find a more concrete way of talking about the machinery
16:46:19 <cygri> ... i prefer the view that there's a loose association between uri and graph
16:46:34 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to suggest using dilbert cube move use case
16:46:36 <cygri> ... with perhaps a way of making it more explicit
16:46:52 <sandro> q-
16:47:13 <cygri> davidwood: i asked kendall clark what a named graph is in stardog
16:47:32 <cygri> ... he said, a possibly empty partition of a database
16:47:43 <cygri> ... that's how many stores treat it
16:47:50 <sandro> "A named graph is a possibly empty partition of an RDF database" -- that's the concept within the RDF database community.
16:48:00 <cygri> ... there's shared conceptual understanding in the rdf database community, but not outside of that community
16:48:37 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
16:48:37 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:48:43 <cygri> AndyS: in databases, the fact that it's a partition is a secondary issue
16:48:51 <cygri> ... the question is, why is it partitioned?
16:48:59 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: i'm unhappy with kendall's phrasing
16:49:31 <cygri> ... when we talk about the web, a named graph is almost like a cached set of triples
16:49:49 <cygri> ... [summarizes webarch]
16:50:33 <cygri> AndyS: your model is a commonly used one ... how does it fit the notion in the named graph paper?
16:51:50 <davidwood> JeremyCarroll, that sounds like Plato's Theory of Forms in that an RDF Graph is only ever abstract and its current home has no particular bearing.
16:52:36 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: a set of named graphs is a cache of the web as defined by web architecture specs
16:53:13 <gavinc> +1 RDF wayback machine
16:53:23 <davidwood> I think JeremyCarroll said that a set of named graphs is a cache of *representations*
16:53:38 <davidwood> Is that so?
16:53:43 <cygri> ... a graph name is a url. webarch already says what's the value of the corresponding graph. it's a solved problem.
16:54:29 <cygri> AndyS: you could write down in your data what purpose you're using the 4th slot for
16:54:37 <cygri> q+
16:54:43 <JeremyCarroll> ack
16:54:47 <JeremyCarroll> q-
16:54:54 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:55:44 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me
16:55:44 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:55:51 <davidwood> q?
16:56:14 <ericP> i don't agree that the RDB world does a better job with catalog, etc.
16:56:27 <davidwood> ericP, agreed
16:56:31 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to respond to richard overloading
16:56:34 <ericP> i think that stuff is more about namespace scoping
16:56:55 <cygri> cygri: the fourth element is used for many different things ... once you try using it for one thing, you preclude other uses
16:57:15 <ericP> that i agree with completely
16:57:23 <cygri> AndyS: RDB world is simpler because they don't try to cache the web
16:57:45 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
16:57:45 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:58:04 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
16:58:04 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to respond to richard overloading
16:58:07 <cygri> davidwood: in an RDB you have lots of out-of-band context. in RDF when you share stuff on the web you have to make that context explicit
16:58:26 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: agree that the 4th slot is overloaded
16:58:48 <cygri> ... but the answer is: if you want to have something better, model it better
16:59:12 <cygri> ... 4th element is a simple generic mechanism
16:59:30 <cygri> ... and there's a toolkit for building something more complicated when you need it
16:59:33 <cygri> q+
16:59:44 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me
16:59:44 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:00:04 <davidwood> ack cygri
17:00:20 <gavinc> ... why are we trying to do that?
17:00:23 <ericP> cygri: we are trying this 4th element from the "cheap and cheerful" into something much more specific
17:00:57 <ericP> ... we're trying to say explicitly how that 4th col works and tie it to web semantics
17:01:04 <gavinc> IRI ;)
17:01:07 <Zakim> -mischat
17:01:09 <ericP> ... i would be happy to keep it "cheep and cheerful"
17:01:23 <yvesr> s/cheep/cheap
17:01:25 <cygri> davidwood: 4th element is an IRI. people can say what it means.
17:01:52 <cygri> AndyS: i agree, but there's a caveat. there's also the relation between IRI and graph
17:01:57 <Zakim> +??P46
17:02:02 <cygri> davidwood: yes
17:02:10 <mischat> zakim, ??P46 is me 
17:02:14 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
17:02:18 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
17:02:38 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
17:02:39 <ericP> q+ to ask if this goes at all beyond what SPARQL had laid out
17:02:49 <davidwood> ack ericP
17:02:52 <AndyS> q?
17:02:53 <davidwood> q?
17:03:08 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if this goes at all beyond what SPARQL had laid out
17:03:15 <cygri> ericP: in SPARQL i have a name for a graph and some stuff inside
17:03:16 <cygri> ... i can make assertions about that graph
17:03:20 <yvesr> davidwood, you can't explicitly represent the relation between the IRI and the graph now (having an IRI for the graph is not enough, i guess)
17:03:45 <cygri> ... that's all there is in sparql at the moment
17:03:56 <davidwood> yvesr, right, we still would need to create a relation.
17:04:00 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:04:16 <davidwood> …but we avoid having a single meaning for the 4th slot
17:04:26 <cygri> AndyS: in SPARQL it's always a loose relation except in FROM NAMED where it's the web architeture relation
17:04:42 <yvesr> davidwood, yes
17:04:43 <cygri> ericP: allow bnodes in the 4th place?
17:04:57 <cygri> ... tricky because of scope
17:04:58 <JeremyCarroll> no bnodes in 4th place!!
17:05:04 <gavinc> No.
17:05:07 <davidwood> +1 JeremyCarroll
17:05:10 <Souri> No
17:05:13 <pchampin> but nevertheless, SPARQL suggests that someone can write <graph-iri> dc:creator "pchampin" .
17:05:13 <AZ> literals in the 4th place?
17:05:19 <zwu2> +1 Jeremy
17:05:36 <pchampin> ... which seems to imply that <graph-iri> is *naming* the graph
17:06:08 <cygri> AndyS: the case needs to be made for anything besides IRI in that slot
17:06:08 <Souri> no bNodes in 4th place please
17:06:10 <ericP> i'm happy with the "4th col is an IRI" constraint
17:06:20 <ivan> +1 to Sandro
17:07:30 <cygri> sandro: i want to see some examples of what i can do with the datasets proposal
17:07:57 <cygri> AndyS: there were two examples already
17:08:19 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-graph-statements ;)
17:08:58 <cygri> sandro: i'm looking for a trig document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it
17:10:01 <ericP> 2011-11-09T17:04:00Z <Zakim> -gavinc
17:10:23 <cygri> ACTION: AndyS to create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it
17:10:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-119 - Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-11-16].
17:10:46 <davidwood> q?
17:10:48 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
17:10:48 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
17:10:59 <zwu2> byte, have to go to another meeting.
17:11:01 <gavinc> Sorry, wife needed the phone line for health insurance :\
17:11:09 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:11:12 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
17:11:31 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is OpenLink_Software
17:11:31 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
17:11:34 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:11:34 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
17:11:37 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:11:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:11:39 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: once you have an example i'll comment on it regarding correspondance with web architecture
17:11:42 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me
17:11:42 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:11:44 <cygri> topic: URI aliases for RDF terms
17:11:50 <ivan> q+
17:11:52 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0006.html
17:11:54 <cygri> davidwood: should we just make an issue for this?
17:12:02 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:12:21 <cygri> ivan: reaction on the list convinced me that this would be difficult
17:12:43 <cygri> q+
17:12:55 <davidwood> ack cygri
17:13:04 <Zakim> -yvesr.a
17:13:43 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
17:15:19 <cygri> cygri: RDF/RDFS/OWL URIs are too long and unwieldy. if that ship has really already sailed, then it's sailing into a dead end
17:15:23 <ericP> i see these alternatives: nothing syntactic abbreviations for common terms (à la turtle/SPARQL's "a" for rdf:type) hideously complex web of owl:sameAs assertions
17:15:33 <cygri> davidwood: let's keep discussing it on the list
17:15:43 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:15:48 <pchampin> bye
17:15:49 <AndyS> bye all
17:15:49 <Zakim> -AZ
17:15:49 <cygri> ... adjourned
17:15:50 <ericP> i see these alternatives: 1 do nothing.. 2 syntactic abbreviations for common terms (à la turtle/SPARQL's "a" for rdf:type)..  3 hideously complex web of owl:sameAs assertions
17:15:50 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:15:50 <Zakim> - +1.781.899.aacc
17:15:51 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
17:15:51 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:15:53 <Zakim> -swh
17:15:53 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aagg
17:15:55 <Zakim> -danbri
17:15:57 <Zakim> -cygri
17:15:58 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:16:02 <Zakim> -ericP
17:16:03 <Zakim> -pchampin
17:16:04 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:09 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:18 <cygri> RRSAgent, make minutes public
17:16:18 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', cygri.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:16:27 <cygri> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:16:31 <Zakim> -cgreer2
17:24:47 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
17:52:03 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:52:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, ??P31
17:54:13 <cygri> zakim, bye
17:54:13 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.707.318.aaaa, swh, Ivan, +1.540.898.aabb, davidwood, +1.781.899.aacc, +1.415.309.aadd, JeremyCarroll, +3539149aaee,
17:54:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-wg
17:54:16 <Zakim> ... +1.650.265.aaff, cgreer2, mischat, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Scott_Bauer, +1.603.897.aagg, yvesr, AndyS, danbri, +1.707.861.aahh, +1.617.324.aaii, AZ, gavinc, pchampin,
17:54:18 <Zakim> ... cygri, +1.617.324.aakk, ericP, MacTed
19:22:38 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #rdf-wg
20:11:55 <cygri> ACTION: Pat to modify RDF Semantics appropriately to hard-code the class extension of rdf:langString to the set of all pairs of strings and language tags
20:11:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-120 - Modify RDF Semantics appropriately to hard-code the class extension of rdf:langString to the set of all pairs of strings and language tags [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-11-16].
20:12:26 <cygri> ACTION-120?
20:12:26 <trackbot> ACTION-120 -- Patrick Hayes to modify RDF Semantics appropriately to hard-code the class extension of rdf:langString to the set of all pairs of strings and language tags -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN
20:12:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/120
20:28:05 <cygri> ACTION: Danbri to move all content of RDF Concepts section 4, and merge it into RDF Schema section 1 as appropriate (or create a new section?)
20:28:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-121 - Move all content of RDF Concepts section 4, and merge it into RDF Schema section 1 as appropriate (or create a new section?) [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-11-16].
20:28:09 <cygri> ACTION-121?
20:28:09 <trackbot> ACTION-121 -- Dan Brickley to move all content of RDF Concepts section 4, and merge it into RDF Schema section 1 as appropriate (or create a new section?) -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN
20:28:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/121
20:55:08 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
21:27:44 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
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