16:46:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:46:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-dnt-irc
16:46:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
16:46:54 <aleecia> Zakim, this is dnt
16:46:54 <Zakim> aleecia, I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be dnt".
16:47:01 <aleecia> Zakim, this will be dnt
16:47:01 <Zakim> ok, aleecia; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
16:47:03 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dnt
16:47:08 <aleecia> chair is aleecia
16:47:38 <npdoty> rrsagent, pointer?
16:47:38 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-dnt-irc#T16-47-38
16:48:03 <aleecia> agenda+ Selection of scribe
16:48:16 <aleecia> agenda+ Comments on minutes
16:48:36 <aleecia> agenda+ 23 November conference call
16:48:43 <aleecia> agenda+ Review of action items
16:49:00 <aleecia> agenda+ Discussion of FPWD publication (including short names)
16:49:17 <aleecia> agenda+ How and when to re-open a closed issue
16:49:27 <aleecia> agenda+ Issue-10: What is a first party?
16:49:42 <sidstamm> sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:49:48 <aleecia> agenda+  Issue-88: different rules for impression of and interaction with 3rd-party ads/content
16:50:03 <aleecia> agenda+ ssue-26: Providing data to 3rd-party widgets -- does that imply consent?
16:50:22 <aleecia> agenda+ Issue-4: What is the default for DNT in client configuration (opt-in or opt-out)?
16:50:49 <aleecia> agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
16:50:55 <aleecia> zakim, agenda?
16:50:55 <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
16:50:56 <Zakim> 1. Selection of scribe [from aleecia]
16:50:58 <Zakim> 2. Comments on minutes [from aleecia]
16:51:00 <Zakim> 3. 23 November conference call [from aleecia]
16:51:01 <Zakim> 4. Review of action items [from aleecia]
16:51:03 <Zakim> 5. Discussion of FPWD publication (including short names) [from aleecia]
16:51:05 <Zakim> 6. How and when to re-open a closed issue [from aleecia]
16:51:07 <Zakim> 7. Issue-10: What is a first party? [from aleecia]
16:51:08 <Zakim> 8. Issue-88: different rules for impression of and interaction with 3rd-party ads/content [from aleecia]
16:51:11 <Zakim> 9. ssue-26: Providing data to 3rd-party widgets -- does that imply consent? [from aleecia]
16:51:13 <Zakim> 10. Issue-4: What is the default for DNT in client configuration (opt-in or opt-out)? [from aleecia]
16:51:16 <Zakim> 11. Announce next meeting & adjourn [from aleecia]
16:53:50 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
16:53:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.674.aaaa
16:54:02 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
16:54:02 <Zakim> sorry, aleecia, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:54:13 <aleecia> zakim, aaaa is aleecia
16:54:13 <Zakim> +aleecia; got it
16:54:18 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
16:54:18 <Zakim> sorry, aleecia, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:54:21 <aleecia> heh
16:56:52 <dsriedel> I can help with that
16:56:57 <aleecia> I'm a little surprised by how few of us there are, and to be the only person on the call
16:57:06 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:57:07 <Zakim> + +49.721.913.74.aabb
16:57:14 <sidstamm> Zakim, aabb is sidstamm 
16:57:14 <Zakim> +sidstamm; got it
16:57:24 <dwainberg> dwainberg has joined #dnt
16:57:30 <aleecia> I'm betting aabb is not Sid :-)
16:57:35 <Zakim> + +1.646.825.aacc
16:57:35 <dsriedel> hm
16:57:39 <dsriedel> its me
16:57:40 <aleecia> probably more like Mozilla has Sid
16:57:45 <sidstamm> oh
16:57:46 <sidstamm> hah
16:57:55 <Zakim> + +1.609.981.aadd
16:58:00 <Zakim> + +1.310.292.aaee
16:58:01 <dsriedel> zakim does not remember me anymore, it seems
16:58:02 <aleecia> Zakim, Mozilla has sid
16:58:02 <Zakim> +sid; got it
16:58:08 <efelten> efelten has joined #dnt
16:58:13 <Frank> Frank has joined #DNT
16:58:31 <dsriedel> zakim, aabb is dsriedel
16:58:31 <Zakim> sorry, dsriedel, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:58:36 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:58:47 <Zakim> -sidstamm
16:58:49 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
16:58:49 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
16:59:01 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the call?
16:59:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia (muted), [Mozilla], +1.646.825.aacc, +1.609.981.aadd, +1.310.292.aaee, [Microsoft]
16:59:02 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
16:59:04 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has sid
16:59:15 <andyzei> andyzei has joined #dnt
16:59:16 <Zakim> + +1.949.483.aaff
16:59:20 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
16:59:20 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
16:59:28 <Zakim> +sidstamm
16:59:35 <dsriedel> no!
16:59:37 <Johnsimpson> Johnsimpson has joined #dnt
16:59:53 <dwainberg> zakim, aacc is dwainberg
16:59:53 <Zakim> +dwainberg; got it
16:59:55 <Zakim> + +1.202.326.aagg
16:59:57 <dsriedel> is there a way to reset sidstamm?
17:00:08 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aahh
17:00:13 <efelten> Zakim, aagg is efelten
17:00:13 <Zakim> +efelten; got it
17:00:15 <dsriedel> he has my phonenumber registered
17:00:18 <aleecia> zakim, aadd is tl
17:00:18 <Zakim> +tl; got it
17:00:20 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
17:00:25 <alex> alex has joined #dnt
17:00:33 <aleecia> (Nick, can you help Sid?)
17:00:36 <Johnsimpson> Jon Simpson is 310 292  1902
17:00:38 <hefferjr> hefferjr has joined #dnt
17:00:40 <Zakim> + +1.408.349.aaii
17:00:50 <aleecia> zakim, aaee is JonSimpson
17:00:50 <Zakim> +JonSimpson; got it
17:00:54 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
17:00:54 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
17:01:01 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
17:01:03 <Zakim> + +1.202.629.aajj
17:01:07 <dsriedel> zakim, mute me
17:01:09 <Zakim> -tl
17:01:10 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #DNT
17:01:10 <Zakim> sorry, dsriedel, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:01:11 <Zakim> + +1.202.637.aakk
17:01:11 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
17:01:12 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
17:01:19 <carmenb> carmenb has joined #dnt
17:01:21 <sidstamm> zakim, aabb is not dsriedel 
17:01:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb is not dsriedel', sidstamm
17:01:25 <Chris> Chris has joined #dnt
17:01:27 <sidstamm> zakim, aabb is dsriedel 
17:01:27 <Zakim> sorry, sidstamm, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
17:01:30 <alex> zakim, mute me
17:01:31 <Zakim> sorry, alex, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.212.631.aall
17:01:39 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aamm
17:01:47 <aleecia> zakim, who is talking?
17:01:49 <Zakim> + +1.508.655.aann
17:01:49 <enewland> enewland has joined #dnt
17:01:51 <jkaran> jkaran has joined #dnt
17:01:52 <Zakim> +tl
17:01:57 <aleecia> zakim who is on the call?
17:01:58 <Zakim> aleecia, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: sidstamm (5%), +1.212.631.aall (56%)
17:02:05 <alex> zakim, aamm is alex
17:02:05 <Zakim> +alex; got it
17:02:12 <alex> zakim, mute me
17:02:19 <sidstamm> zakim, mute me
17:02:22 <Zakim> alex should now be muted
17:02:22 <aleecia> zakim, aall is Jennifer
17:02:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:02:34 <Zakim> sidstamm should now be muted
17:02:34 <henry> henry has joined #dnt
17:02:43 <justin> zakim, aakk is justin
17:02:44 <Zakim> +Jennifer; got it
17:02:44 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #dnt
17:02:49 <Zakim> +??P56
17:02:56 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaoo
17:03:00 <Zakim> +justin; got it
17:03:03 <fielding> Zakim, [IPcaller] is fielding
17:03:19 <Zakim> +fielding; got it
17:03:24 <Zakim> + +1.510.859.aapp
17:03:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:41 <npdoty> Zakim, aapp is npdoty
17:03:41 <Zakim> +npdoty; got it
17:03:45 <karl> zakim, [IPcaller] is karl
17:03:45 <Zakim> +karl; got it
17:03:58 <karl> zakim, mute me
17:03:58 <Zakim> karl should now be muted
17:04:16 <hober> Zakim, aaoo is me
17:04:16 <Zakim> +hober; got it
17:04:34 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aaqq
17:04:34 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #dnt
17:04:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:04:51 <hwest> hwest has joined #dnt
17:04:52 <aleecia> scribe sidstamm
17:04:56 <Zakim> +??P60
17:05:03 <Zakim> +[Mozilla.a]
17:05:05 <aleecia>   http://www.w3.org/2011/10/26-dnt-minutes
17:05:09 <npdoty> scribenick: sidstamm
17:05:11 <Zakim> -tl
17:05:14 <aleecia> http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-dnt-minutes.html
17:05:21 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:05:22 <aleecia> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-dnt-minutes.html
17:05:25 <aleecia> comments?
17:05:50 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
17:06:00 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
17:06:00 <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
17:06:01 <sidstamm> aleecia: how is availability for 23rd Nov for conference call (via hum by phone)?
17:06:29 <sidstamm> various: ::humming::
17:06:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
17:06:40 <hwest> I may have trouble making the 23rd
17:06:50 <aleecia> cannot make 23rd:
17:06:51 <Zakim> + +1.650.862.aarr
17:06:52 <BrianTs> BrianTs has joined #DNT
17:06:54 <kimon> kimon has joined #dnt
17:06:55 <Zakim> + +1.516.695.aass
17:06:56 <sidstamm> +1
17:06:58 <Chris> cannot
17:07:00 <hober> +1
17:07:02 <karl> 23rd ok
17:07:02 <dwainberg> +1 
17:07:04 <kimon> +1
17:07:21 <aleecia> can make:
17:07:24 <enewland> +1
17:07:24 <efelten> +1
17:07:25 <carmenb> +1
17:07:25 <npdoty> +1
17:07:25 <jkaran> +1
17:07:25 <vincent> +1
17:07:25 <WileyS> +1
17:07:27 <Frank> +1
17:07:29 <andyzei> +1
17:07:31 <justin> +1
17:07:31 <kj> kj has joined #dnt
17:07:34 <alex> +1
17:07:36 <fielding> +1
17:07:36 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
17:07:40 <Johnsimpson> Can do 
17:07:55 <dsriedel> dsriedel has joined #dnt
17:07:59 <amyc> amyc has joined #dnt
17:08:11 <jmayer> jmayer has joined #dnt
17:08:14 <sidstamm> aleecia: will keep phone call on the 23rd
17:08:18 <Frankie> 23rd ok
17:08:22 <Zakim> + +1.202.684.aatt
17:08:24 <punderwood> punderwood has joined #dnt
17:08:35 <sidstamm> WileyS: the following week (30th) will be lite due to IAPP event
17:08:37 <jmayer> Zakim, aatt is jmayer
17:08:37 <Zakim> +jmayer; got it
17:09:01 <BrianTs> Zakim, Microsoft.aa has BrianTs
17:09:01 <Zakim> +BrianTs; got it
17:09:05 <aleecia> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/
17:09:12 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
17:10:00 <sidstamm> WileyS: action 17 was done in the meeting notes, captured in the most recent compliance draft
17:10:29 <sidstamm> WileyS: will close out action 17
17:10:36 <karl> -> actions open http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/open
17:10:47 <aleecia> action: aleecia to ping peter re: action-20
17:10:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Ping peter re: action-20 [on Aleecia McDonald - due 2011-11-16].
17:11:22 <tl> zakim, who is on the call
17:11:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', tl
17:11:37 <sidstamm> aleecia: jmayer will close action regarding 1st vs 3rd party
17:11:47 <karl> zakim, unmute me
17:11:47 <Zakim> karl should no longer be muted
17:11:50 <tl> zakim, who is here?
17:11:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, [Mozilla], dwainberg, JonSimpson, [Microsoft], +1.949.483.aaff, sidstamm (muted), efelten, +1.813.366.aahh, +1.408.349.aaii, +1.202.629.aajj, justin,
17:11:55 <Zakim> ... Jennifer, alex (muted), +1.508.655.aann, fielding, ??P56, hober, npdoty, karl, +1.650.253.aaqq, [IPcaller], ??P60, [Mozilla.a], [Microsoft.a], adrianba, [IPcaller.a],
17:11:57 <pde> npdoty: no, though I can join
17:11:58 <Zakim> ... +1.650.862.aarr, +1.516.695.aass, [Microsoft.aa], jmayer
17:12:00 <Zakim> [Microsoft.aa] has BrianTs
17:12:00 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has sid
17:12:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see tl, punderwood, jmayer, amyc, dsriedel, kj, kimon, BrianTs, hwest, adrianba, Frankie, henry, jkaran, enewland, Chris, carmenb, WileyS, vincent, hefferjr, alex, justin,
17:12:06 <Zakim> ... Johnsimpson, andyzei, fielding, Frank, efelten, dwainberg, sidstamm, npdoty, Zakim, RRSAgent, aleecia, karl, mischat, schunter, hober, trackbot, pde
17:12:25 <tl> zakim, Mozilla.a has tl
17:12:25 <Zakim> +tl; got it
17:12:31 <Zakim> +??P11
17:13:38 <karl> zakim, mute me
17:13:38 <Zakim> karl should now be muted
17:14:01 <Zakim> +??P34
17:14:22 <sidstamm> aleecia: asks various members to update actions, thanks for your work on them
17:14:30 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda?
17:14:30 <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
17:14:32 <Zakim> 1. Selection of scribe [from aleecia]
17:14:33 <Zakim> 2. Comments on minutes [from aleecia]
17:14:34 <Zakim> 3. 23 November conference call [from aleecia]
17:14:36 <Zakim> 4. Review of action items [from aleecia]
17:14:38 <Zakim> 5. Discussion of FPWD publication (including short names) [from aleecia]
17:14:40 <Zakim> 6. How and when to re-open a closed issue [from aleecia]
17:14:41 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 1
17:14:43 <Zakim> 7. Issue-10: What is a first party? [from aleecia]
17:14:44 <Zakim> 8. Issue-88: different rules for impression of and interaction with 3rd-party ads/content [from aleecia]
17:14:46 <Zakim> 9. ssue-26: Providing data to 3rd-party widgets -- does that imply consent? [from aleecia]
17:14:46 <carmenb> 1.202.629.aaj is carmenb
17:14:48 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 2
17:14:48 <Zakim> 10. Issue-4: What is the default for DNT in client configuration (opt-in or opt-out)? [from aleecia]
17:14:51 <Zakim> 11. Announce next meeting & adjourn [from aleecia]
17:14:52 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 3
17:14:53 <Zakim> agendum 1, Selection of scribe, closed
17:14:53 <karl> congratulations for the work on editing the document!
17:14:55 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:14:57 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 4
17:14:57 <Zakim> 2. Comments on minutes [from aleecia]
17:14:58 <Zakim> + +1.415.200.aauu
17:15:00 <Zakim> agendum 2, Comments on minutes, closed
17:15:02 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:04 <Zakim> 3. 23 November conference call [from aleecia]
17:15:06 <Zakim> agendum 3, 23 November conference call, closed
17:15:08 <npdoty> Zakim, take up agendum 5
17:15:10 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:12 <Zakim> 4. Review of action items [from aleecia]
17:15:14 <Zakim> agendum 4, Review of action items, closed
17:15:16 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:18 <Zakim> 5. Discussion of FPWD publication (including short names) [from aleecia]
17:15:22 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Discussion of FPWD publication (including short names)" taken up [from aleecia]
17:15:43 <pde> aleecia, I just joined the call if you want to ask about that open action again
17:15:47 <carmenb> timing for submitting comment for press release?
17:16:11 <sidstamm> aleecia: members should send comments about press release to ian at w3c
17:16:21 <pde> Zakim, mute me
17:16:21 <Zakim> sorry, pde, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:16:31 <carmenb> got it
17:16:46 <Johnsimpson> They have opened up press release for view to IEs
17:16:49 <npdoty> invited experts also now have ACL permission to at least see that press release draft
17:16:59 <aleecia> q?
17:17:09 <pde> q+
17:17:11 <karl> zakim, unmute me
17:17:11 <Zakim> karl should no longer be muted
17:17:11 <pde> q-
17:18:37 <sidstamm> karl: draft titles should be changed now if we want to change short names (it is easier due to links)
17:18:45 <pde> zakim, who is here
17:18:45 <Zakim> pde, you need to end that query with '?'
17:18:50 <pde> zakim, who is here?
17:18:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, [Mozilla], dwainberg, JonSimpson, [Microsoft], +1.949.483.aaff, sidstamm (muted), efelten, +1.813.366.aahh, +1.408.349.aaii, +1.202.629.aajj, justin,
17:18:53 <Zakim> ... Jennifer, alex (muted), +1.508.655.aann, fielding, ??P56, hober, npdoty, karl, +1.650.253.aaqq, [IPcaller], ??P60, [Mozilla.a], [Microsoft.a], adrianba, [IPcaller.a],
17:18:57 <Zakim> ... +1.650.862.aarr, +1.516.695.aass, [Microsoft.aa], jmayer, ??P11, ??P34, +1.415.200.aauu
17:19:01 <Zakim> [Microsoft.aa] has BrianTs
17:19:01 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has sid
17:19:03 <Zakim> [Mozilla.a] has tl
17:19:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see tl, punderwood, jmayer, amyc, dsriedel, kj, kimon, BrianTs, hwest, adrianba, Frankie, henry, jkaran, enewland, Chris, carmenb, WileyS, vincent, hefferjr, alex, justin,
17:19:09 <Zakim> ... Johnsimpson, andyzei, fielding, Frank, efelten, dwainberg, sidstamm, npdoty, Zakim, RRSAgent, aleecia, karl, mischat, schunter, hober, trackbot, pde
17:19:32 <pde> Zakim, +1.415.200.aauu is pde
17:19:32 <Zakim> +pde; got it
17:19:39 <pde> Zakim, mute me
17:19:39 <Zakim> pde should now be muted
17:19:53 <tl> +q
17:20:02 <aleecia> ack tl
17:20:35 <sidstamm> tl: not much value in changing the names now, wouldn't mind revisiting once the content is more sorted out
17:20:46 <sidstamm> aleecia: we can change them later
17:20:49 <karl> q+
17:21:22 <aleecia> ach karl
17:21:26 <aleecia> ack karl
17:21:34 <sidstamm> aleecia: we should tackle now if we don't need to wait for the contents of the documents to get sorted out
17:22:38 <sidstamm> karl: yeah, can be done in the future, but there will be more confusion if we change it after FPWD because of wider distribution of original names
17:23:01 <adrianba> q+
17:23:14 <aleecia> ack adrianba
17:23:54 <sidstamm> adrianba: agree with karl about the short name change (now is better than later)
17:24:05 <sidstamm> adrianba: compliance is an overloaded term and not necessarily what we mean
17:24:19 <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Nov/0060.html
17:24:21 <Johnsimpson> What are the proposed names?
17:24:35 <dsriedel> I had issues translating this into German too, explaining it well...
17:24:45 <npdoty> current shortnames are tracking-dnt and tracking-compliance
17:24:49 <karl> Happy with that resolution
17:24:53 <Zakim> - +1.516.695.aass
17:24:55 <sidstamm> aleecia: proposes to change short names but leave titles as they are and revisit later when we're F2F and have a better idea of document contents
17:24:58 <npdoty> proposed short names are tracking-syntax and tracking-definition
17:25:16 <npdoty> q+
17:25:30 <aleecia> ack npdoty
17:25:48 <sidstamm> npdoty: happy to discuss short names on the list, but prefers existing to karl's suggestions
17:26:09 <sidstamm> aleecia: consensus is to discuss short names on list and leave titles alone for now
17:26:23 <Johnsimpson> Curent short names are?.
17:26:32 <karl> zakim, mute me
17:26:32 <Zakim> karl should now be muted
17:26:43 <karl> Johnsimpson, see the http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2011Nov/0060.html
17:26:51 <npdoty> current shortnames are tracking-dnt and tracking-compliance; proposed short names are tracking-syntax and tracking-definition
17:26:56 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda?
17:26:56 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:26:57 <Zakim> 5. Discussion of FPWD publication (including short names) [from aleecia]
17:27:00 <Zakim> 6. How and when to re-open a closed issue [from aleecia]
17:27:03 <Zakim> 7. Issue-10: What is a first party? [from aleecia]
17:27:05 <Zakim> 8. Issue-88: different rules for impression of and interaction with 3rd-party ads/content [from aleecia]
17:27:07 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 5
17:27:07 <Johnsimpson> Thanks, Karl
17:27:08 <Zakim> 9. ssue-26: Providing data to 3rd-party widgets -- does that imply consent? [from aleecia]
17:27:10 <Zakim> 10. Issue-4: What is the default for DNT in client configuration (opt-in or opt-out)? [from aleecia]
17:27:12 <Zakim> 11. Announce next meeting & adjourn [from aleecia]
17:27:12 <npdoty> Zakim, take up agendum 6
17:27:13 <Zakim> agendum 5, Discussion of FPWD publication (including short names), closed
17:27:15 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:27:16 <Zakim> 6. How and when to re-open a closed issue [from aleecia]
17:27:18 <Zakim> agendum 6. "How and when to re-open a closed issue" taken up [from aleecia]
17:28:06 <sidstamm> aleecia: we don't want to reopen issues for members who join after the issues are closed.  To reopen, state concern and proposal for change, chairs will decide whether or not to reopen issue.
17:28:11 <jmayer> +q
17:28:22 <aleecia> ack jmayer
17:28:24 <Frankie> +q
17:28:41 <jmayer> -q
17:29:06 <tl> q+
17:29:06 <sidstamm> aleecia: new information required to propose reopening issue, must provide information new to the group (not yet considered by the group)
17:29:26 <tl> q-
17:29:34 <aleecia> ack Frankie
17:30:18 <sidstamm> Frankie: not always able to follow the whole discussion.  potentially one member's "new information" might have already been considered by the group.  wants to reinvent discussions with old arguments.
17:30:53 <karl> q+
17:30:57 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aavv
17:31:12 <sidstamm> aleecia: if you missed discussion of an item, but the group tackled it, it's too late.
17:31:30 <sidstamm> aleecia: contentious discussions will be long-lasting, and it is not likely you will miss them
17:32:04 <karl> Search archives for discussions
17:32:04 <karl> History of issues http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues
17:32:07 <aleecia> ach karl
17:32:10 <karl> ack karl
17:33:18 <Frankie> thanks for clarification, aleecia. thanks karl - we will solve its in this way.
17:33:19 <karl> + search box http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/
17:33:19 <sidstamm> karl: read up on old discussions via issues list, which has good chronological pointers to discussion
17:33:43 <npdoty> Zakim, agenda?
17:33:43 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:33:44 <Zakim> 6. How and when to re-open a closed issue [from aleecia]
17:33:47 <Zakim> 7. Issue-10: What is a first party? [from aleecia]
17:33:48 <Zakim> 8. Issue-88: different rules for impression of and interaction with 3rd-party ads/content [from aleecia]
17:33:51 <Zakim> 9. ssue-26: Providing data to 3rd-party widgets -- does that imply consent? [from aleecia]
17:33:53 <Zakim> 10. Issue-4: What is the default for DNT in client configuration (opt-in or opt-out)? [from aleecia]
17:33:55 <Zakim> 11. Announce next meeting & adjourn [from aleecia]
17:34:01 <dwainberg> scribenick dwainberg
17:34:02 <npdoty> Zakim, close agendum 6
17:34:02 <Zakim> agendum 6, How and when to re-open a closed issue, closed
17:34:03 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:34:05 <Zakim> 7. Issue-10: What is a first party? [from aleecia]
17:34:06 <tl> q+
17:34:15 <npdoty> Zakim, take up agendum 7
17:34:15 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Issue-10: What is a first party?" taken up [from aleecia]
17:34:24 <npdoty> scribenick: dwainberg
17:34:25 <dwainberg> aleecia: we have something close
17:34:44 <dwainberg> tl: edge cases in proposals we haven't covered. don't want to let those hold things up.
17:35:04 <dwainberg> q+
17:35:04 <amyc> q+
17:35:18 <npdoty> ack tl
17:35:19 <dwainberg> aleecia: we have overall consensus of what a first party is
17:35:23 <tl> q+
17:35:26 <npdoty> ack dwainberg
17:35:29 <aleecia> ack dwainberg
17:35:55 <jmayer> +q
17:35:55 <fielding> I'd appreciate more time to review the proposals before we ask for consensus on these.
17:36:15 <carmenb> +q
17:36:35 <dwainberg> dwainberg: not part of the consensus; issue is consent and scope of consent
17:36:56 <dwainberg> aleecia: we agreed in f2f we would start down this path and see where it goes
17:37:18 <fielding> ack jmayer
17:37:47 <dwainberg> jmayer: one consensus emerging is that 1st and 3rd party means whatever we says it means, so not incompatible
17:38:02 <dwainberg> aleecia: we may look at this at some point and realize we've moved away from it
17:38:04 <neal> neal has joined #dnt
17:38:12 <dwainberg> ... do we have the right decision points?
17:38:22 <aleecia> ack amyc
17:38:29 <dwainberg> ... I think we did have a pretty strong agreement that this was the path to go down.
17:38:29 <jmayer> -q
17:38:41 <carmenb> +1 to jonathan  - 1st and 3rd party is just terminology to describe user consent
17:38:58 <justin>  Then let's talk about the substantive decision points.  Let's please not keep talking about what we name things . . .
17:39:01 <dwainberg> amyc: caution about rushing into consensus. How is the list of questions a definition? Is the spec going to contain scenarios?
17:39:32 <karl> it is possible to have non normative User stories for illustrating
17:39:49 <dwainberg> aleecia: to reiterate, we have text that came up before santa clara. we have close to good language on the spec side, and good lang on intent and examples, so taking these pieces together
17:40:00 <dwainberg> ... we start to get something that looks like a good piece to go into the draft
17:40:31 <karl> example of user stories in a document http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/NOTE-qa-handbook-20041122/#introduction
17:40:40 <jmayer> ingredients of the seemingly developing consensus: an objective test, about user expectations and intent
17:40:51 <dwainberg> ... if we get through these, would ask jmayer and tl to work together to merge this into a draft
17:41:11 <karl> another example of user story http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#intro
17:41:17 <dwainberg> amyc: that sounds good; just want to make sure we're not agreeing on this call to a consensus.
17:41:48 <aleecia> ack tl
17:41:48 <dwainberg> tl: wants amyc to point out the further examples she wants addressed.
17:41:54 <carmenb> -q
17:42:24 <dwainberg> tl: having a list of examples is illustrative and helps prevent getting into a rat-holey description, but valuable for those considering implementation.
17:42:30 <amyc> agree that list of examples is helpful to include to help flesh out eventual definition
17:42:42 <amyc> q-
17:42:42 <karl> sections can be marked up to be non-normative, normative
17:42:46 <dwainberg> tl: will work with jmayer to clean it up
17:43:35 <Zakim> + +1.202.263.aaww
17:43:59 <tl> ack tl 
17:44:16 <dwainberg> aleecia: one other thing on the thread was a suggestion to approach as a 3 part discussion: non-binding discussion, implementable in precise standards language, and then issulstrations
17:44:27 <dwainberg> s/issulstrations/illustrations
17:44:35 <jmayer> action: jmayer to Draft Near-Consensus First Party vs. Third Party Section with tl
17:44:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Draft Near-Consensus First Party vs. Third Party Section with tl [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2011-11-16].
17:45:25 <dwainberg> aleecia: any other comments on issue 10?
17:45:35 <dwainberg> aleecia: none - moving on
17:46:01 <dwainberg> ... moving on to issue 88
17:46:12 <jules> jules has joined #dnt
17:46:18 <dwainberg> different rules for impression and interaction
17:46:18 <jmayer> +q
17:46:21 <WileyS> +q
17:46:27 <aleecia> ack jmayer
17:47:04 <dwainberg> jmayer: similar to 1st 3rd party distinction
17:47:16 <aleecia> ack WileyS
17:47:37 <dwainberg> WileyS: agrees with jmayer; in language we capture this as meaningful or material interaction
17:47:47 <dwainberg> ... more difficult in an objective way to define the line
17:48:09 <dwainberg> ... we should expect it's never going to be completely bright
17:48:14 <justin> There's draft language in the FPWD on what constitutes a "meaningful interaction" with third-party content to convert to 1P right now.
17:48:18 <dwainberg> ... hopefully companies will make the right choice
17:48:24 <adrianba> rrsagent, pointer
17:48:24 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-dnt-irc#T17-48-24
17:48:37 <jmayer> we can say things about ambiguity
17:48:52 <jmayer> for example, if it's unclear whether you're a 1P or 3P, assume you're a 3P
17:48:59 <karl> we can't test things with ambiguity
17:49:20 <tl> q+
17:49:21 <alex> q?
17:49:25 <dwainberg> aleecia: what we can test is a party says it's a first party and acts as a first party
17:49:46 <aleecia> ack tl
17:49:50 <dwainberg> ... some of this will not be part of w3c; it will come with independent testing or ftc
17:50:17 <karl> q+
17:50:20 <dwainberg> tl: on testability, this is a non-technical component of the standard. this is a policy decision. we have to give up the hope that everything will be verifiable.
17:50:42 <dwainberg> aleecia: there are ways to test things not automated. we can test for 3rd party interactions.
17:50:48 <aleecia> ack karl
17:51:00 <Zakim> -npdoty
17:51:03 <aleecia> more… space… between… words?
17:51:26 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
17:51:45 <dwainberg> karl: to clarify, was not talking about auto testing. we have cases like accessibility guidelines, where we can have human testing. it has to be testable.
17:51:55 <dwainberg> aleecia: what would be untestable?
17:52:10 <Zakim> +npdoty
17:52:51 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:52:53 <alex> q+
17:52:56 <alex> q?
17:53:30 <dwainberg> aleecia: we can handle this by saying all interactions are by default 3rd party, 
17:53:39 <aleecia> ack npdoty
17:53:56 <alex> unmute me
17:54:04 <alex> zakim, unmute me
17:54:04 <Zakim> alex should no longer be muted
17:54:10 <aleecia> ack alex
17:54:52 <jmayer> +q
17:54:55 <Zakim> + +1.646.654.aaxx
17:55:01 <dwainberg> alex: related to this issue, we have agreed on a balanced approached, and it seems to me we're seeing everything from the user/website perspective, and we have defined 1st/3rd along those lines
17:55:40 <tl> q+
17:55:41 <justin> This isn't a first-party, third-party question --- this goes to the exceptions to tracking
17:55:43 <dwainberg> ... use case of Product A that wants to advertise on various websites, and wants to measure reach, frequency, etc. 
17:56:01 <justin> Your use case is clearly a third party, this question is addressed elsewhere.
17:56:03 <jmayer> that is, what justin said
17:56:22 <jmayer> -q
17:57:01 <aleecia> ack tl
17:57:35 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
17:57:43 <jmayer> +q
17:57:49 <carmenb> an advertiser is a 3rd party
17:57:59 <dwainberg> alex: clarifying...wants to see discussion around the point of view of the advertiser and how the advertiser is viewed in this 1st vs 3rd party ecosystem
17:58:02 <karl> advertiser as a class of products
17:58:03 <tl> +q
17:58:50 <jmayer> -q
17:58:59 <dwainberg> alex: how is an advertiser able to have metrics around an ad.
17:59:25 <Zakim> -??P34
17:59:28 <Frankie> right, Jonathan !
17:59:59 <dwainberg> aleecia: company is most likely to have a relationship with an advertising company. this gets into potential exceptions.
18:00:04 <jmayer> 1P vs. 3P: "What interactions are we going to impose some privacy limits on?"
18:00:11 <jmayer> Tracking: "What limits are we going to impose?"
18:00:32 <dwainberg> ... users perspective vs companies perspective; is you're implementing DNT how do you say you're getting a lighter touch as a 1st party.
18:00:47 <dwainberg> ... you know that because of way users interact
18:01:01 <aleecia> q?
18:01:03 <fielding> another way to think of it: what use cases do we need to guide advertising networks with regard to tracking for the purpose of frequency capping, measuring reach, etc.?
18:01:30 <karl> user - network infrastructure - primary companies - services companies (including ads companies) with blurry lines in between those
18:01:58 <jkaran> raising my pencil q+
18:01:59 <dwainberg> alex: problem is how will the advertising agency, if treated as a 3rd party, how will it consolidate data across websites to get a single picture?
18:01:59 <Frankie> goes all around purposes of collecting data...
18:02:09 <karl> q+ jkaran 
18:02:13 <pde> q+
18:02:14 <justin> Look at the FPWD: there are exceptions for tracking for third-parties like ad networks (sec 3.4) http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html
18:02:31 <pde> q-
18:02:35 <Zakim> -??P11
18:02:48 <jules> so these are the issues i described during my brief presentation about the non 'behavioral" third party ad metric, ad delivery uses
18:02:53 <aleecia> ack jkaran
18:02:56 <dwainberg> jkaran: can explain some of how this works
18:03:03 <dwainberg> aleecia: we can take this up offline or later
18:03:12 <aleecia> ack tl
18:03:19 <tl> -ack tl
18:04:00 <dwainberg> aleecia: we are close to being able to get text on issue 10, and in doing so will address 88 and 26, when and how does a 3rd party become treated as a first party.
18:04:59 <dwainberg> aleecia: now to issue 4
18:05:13 <dwainberg> ... what is the default for dnt in a client config
18:05:59 <dwainberg> ... should there be a state of sending that the user has not made a choice
18:06:38 <tl> q+
18:07:25 <Frankie> q+
18:07:29 <aleecia> ack tl
18:07:45 <Zakim> -fielding
18:08:03 <carmenb> please link blog
18:08:05 <efelten> +q
18:08:27 <aleecia> Google says: http://blog.mozilla.com/privacy/2011/11/09/dnt-cannot-be-default/
18:08:30 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dnt
18:08:37 <aleecia> er, google search turns up <url>
18:08:49 <dwainberg> tl: issue is more about server defaults; less clear what you should do when you do not get a dnt signal. not valuable to us to know when user has not made a choice. what server should do with no signal is up to the server.
18:09:25 <Zakim> -npdoty
18:09:26 <dwainberg> tl: user agents should not say things the user hasn't told them to say
18:09:32 <aleecia> ack Frankie
18:09:35 <efelten> -q
18:09:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
18:09:53 <pde> q+
18:10:01 <pde> Zakim, unmute me
18:10:01 <Zakim> pde should no longer be muted
18:10:02 <aleecia> ack pde
18:10:31 <WileyS> +q
18:10:36 <dwainberg> pde: if there was an indication that browsers would turn it on by default we might have to discuss it, but otherwise not an issue
18:10:40 <tl> correction: user agents should not say things on behalf of the user which do not represent what the agent thinks the user wants
18:10:42 <Frankie_> Frankie_ has joined #dnt
18:10:51 <aleecia> ack WileyS
18:12:16 <dwainberg> WileyS: there probably will be use cases in the real world where dnt is changed w/out user's action. so, in employer case, how will servers deal? race conditions in that case when sites ask for permission?
18:13:03 <jmayer> +q
18:13:14 <Zakim> + +49.175.181.aayy
18:13:17 <pde> aleecia, perhaps a NN bill passed in the Netherlands?
18:14:12 <aleecia> summary of options: (1) we say nothing, (2) agents SHOULD not speak for users who have not had a choice, (3) agents MUST not speak for users who have not made a choice
18:14:12 <dwainberg> jmayer: softer touch approaches: what happens if on install of browser a pref dialog pops up asking if user wants it on? a lot of room for design in that space, so if the principle
18:14:34 <dwainberg> ... is that we don't want a world where dnt enabled by default a rule about what a browser can do is going to get us there.
18:14:45 <Frankie> zakim, +49.175.181.aay its me
18:14:45 <Zakim> I don't understand '+49.175.181.aay its me', Frankie
18:15:03 <Frankie> +49.175.181.aay is me', Frankie
18:15:08 <efelten> Zakim, aayy is Frankie
18:15:08 <Zakim> +Frankie; got it
18:15:16 <dwainberg> aleecia: we have 15 mins left, and probably will not come to a decision. how do we move this forward?
18:15:36 <Frankie> +q
18:15:40 <jmayer> -q
18:15:44 <aleecia> q?
18:15:51 <aleecia> ack Frankie
18:16:26 <aleecia> zakim who is speaking?
18:16:29 <karl> an echo feature would send back to the user the DNT header seen by the server, so the user (browser) would know if the header has been modified along the way
18:16:30 <jmayer> Zakim, who is talking?
18:16:41 <Zakim> jmayer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (60%), Frankie (15%), karl (4%)
18:16:52 <karl> zakim, mute me
18:16:52 <Zakim> karl should now be muted
18:17:17 <dwainberg> aleecia: does the ability to turn dnt on and off address the point, or was there more?
18:17:19 <andyzei> +q
18:17:57 <fielding> karl, a user can go to a website that can send back the header setting in content -- that is a simple CGI script.  There is no need for it in the protocol.
18:17:58 <dwainberg> Frankie: what do we do if the user agent says nothing? from the legal point of view, if the user agent says nothing the user can be tracked.
18:18:39 <dwainberg> aleecia: we don't do laws, so this is something that might be decided country by country.
18:18:53 <kimon> can you put me on speaker queu?
18:18:56 <punderwood> punderwood has joined #dnt
18:18:58 <aleecia> q?
18:19:23 <kimon> +q
18:19:26 <dwainberg> Frankie: we need a switch that's on or off. the question is the default setting will depend on legal; there can be no standard.
18:20:39 <dwainberg> ACTION: Frankie will write up a proposal wrt default settings
18:20:39 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Frankie
18:20:53 <aleecia> ack andyzei
18:21:04 <Frankie> trackbot its me
18:21:19 <dwainberg> andyzei: what about shared PCs other environments? we need a definition of user.
18:21:29 <dwainberg> ISSUE: what is a user?
18:21:29 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-100 - What is a user? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/100/edit .
18:21:33 <aleecia> issue: what is a user? add to defns
18:21:34 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-101 - What is a user? add to defns ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/101/edit .
18:21:46 <aleecia> ack kimon
18:21:48 <aleecia> q?
18:22:04 <dwainberg> ACTION: Frankie to write proposal wrt default settings
18:22:04 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Frankie
18:22:43 <dwainberg> kimon: scared by the prospect of having the legislate dnt; unless it's off by definition everywhere, we're going to have real difficulties.
18:23:16 <aleecia> who is talking?
18:23:17 <dwainberg> ACTION: kimon and Frankie will write up proposals wrt to default settings
18:23:17 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kimon
18:23:25 <Frankie> sorry karl...
18:24:19 <dwainberg> aleecia: any other comments? 
18:24:19 <kimon> kimon=vp@iabeurope.eu
18:24:34 <enewland> enewland has joined #dnt
18:24:43 <dwainberg> aleecia: next meeting chaired by Matthias, and will look at the header
18:24:51 <Frankie> frankie= frank.wagner@telekom.de 
18:25:06 <Zakim> - +1.202.263.aaww
18:25:08 <Zakim> -justin
18:25:09 <Zakim> - +1.650.253.aaqq
18:25:09 <Zakim> -JonSimpson
18:25:10 <Zakim> -Jennifer
18:25:10 <Zakim> - +1.202.629.aajj
18:25:10 <Zakim> - +1.508.655.aann
18:25:11 <Zakim> -sidstamm
18:25:13 <Zakim> -aleecia
18:25:15 <Zakim> -alex
18:25:17 <Zakim> -efelten
18:25:19 <Zakim> -adrianba
18:25:20 <aleecia> thank you to scribes!
18:25:21 <Zakim> -??P56
18:25:23 <Zakim> -Frankie
18:25:23 <Frankie> Frankie has left #dnt
18:25:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:25:27 <Zakim> - +1.650.862.aarr
18:25:29 <Zakim> - +1.408.349.aaii
18:25:30 <Zakim> - +1.646.654.aaxx
18:25:31 <adrianba> thank you chair
18:25:33 <Zakim> -??P60
18:25:35 <Zakim> -hober
18:25:36 <Zakim> -dwainberg
18:25:38 <Zakim> -jmayer
18:25:41 <Zakim> -karl
18:25:43 <Zakim> -[Mozilla.a]
18:25:45 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aavv
18:25:47 <Zakim> - +1.813.366.aahh
18:25:49 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:28:28 <enewland> enewland has joined #dnt
18:29:15 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
18:32:18 <Zakim> - +1.949.483.aaff
18:37:19 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pde, in T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM
18:37:20 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
18:37:24 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.674.aaaa, aleecia, +49.721.913.74.aabb, sidstamm, +1.646.825.aacc, +1.609.981.aadd, +1.310.292.aaee, sid, [Microsoft], +1.949.483.aaff, dwainberg,
18:37:28 <Zakim> ... +1.202.326.aagg, +1.813.366.aahh, efelten, tl, +1.408.349.aaii, JonSimpson, +1.202.629.aajj, +1.202.637.aakk, +1.212.631.aall, +1.813.366.aamm, +1.508.655.aann, alex, Jennifer,
18:37:33 <Zakim> ... +1.619.846.aaoo, justin, fielding, +1.510.859.aapp, npdoty, karl, hober, +1.650.253.aaqq, [IPcaller], [Mozilla], adrianba, +1.650.862.aarr, +1.516.695.aass, +1.202.684.aatt,
18:37:36 <Zakim> ... jmayer, BrianTs, pde, +1.760.705.aavv, +1.202.263.aaww, +1.646.654.aaxx, +49.175.181.aayy, Frankie
18:37:43 <aleecia> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
18:37:49 <aleecia> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:37:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-dnt-minutes.html aleecia
18:38:47 <adrianba> adrianba has left #dnt