14:50:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:50:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-irc
14:50:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:50:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:50:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:50:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:50:05 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:50:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:50:06 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:50:06 <trackbot> Date: 03 November 2011
14:50:15 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
14:50:23 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:50:35 <Luc> Scribe: Graham Klyne
14:50:41 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:50:51 <Luc> Graham, everything should be set up for you
14:52:49 <GK> OK, thanks.
14:53:07 <Luc> thanks for volunteering
14:53:34 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:53:41 <Zakim> +??P36
14:53:53 <GK> zakim, ??p36 is me
14:53:53 <Zakim> +GK; got it
14:54:14 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
14:56:43 <Luc> Topic: Admin 
14:57:22 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
14:57:41 <Zakim> +Luc
14:57:57 <Zakim> +??P16
14:58:03 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
14:58:06 <Paolo> zakim. ??P16 is me
14:58:13 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov
14:58:16 <Paolo> zakim,??P16 is me
14:58:16 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
14:58:25 <Zakim> +Yolanda
14:58:45 <Zakim> +tlebo
14:59:05 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:59:08 <Zakim> +Yogesh_Simmhan
14:59:10 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
14:59:33 <Luc> @sandro, did you see my message about not being able to create a poll?
15:00:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:33 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
15:00:33 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:00:39 <vinh> vinh has joined #prov
15:00:44 <Zakim> +??P27
15:00:47 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:59 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:19 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:01:29 <GK> Luc: intro - see agenda
15:01:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:40 <GK> ... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
15:01:46 <Luc> Proposed: to accept minutes of last week's teleconference  
15:01:54 <GK> ... no AOB for agenda
15:02:04 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, ??P27, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller]
15:02:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see smiles, vinh, StephenCresswell, Yogesh, tlebo, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, GK, GK1, MacTed, trackbot, sandro, stain
15:02:10 <smiles> +1
15:02:14 <Yogesh> +1
15:02:17 <GK> 0 (not present)
15:02:17 <Paolo> (missed it)
15:02:24 <Paolo> 0 (not present)
15:03:04 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:03:08 <Luc> ACCEPTED: minutes of last week's teleconference 
15:03:17 <Zakim> +??P5
15:03:19 <Luc> Topic: F2F2 and F2F3 
15:03:20 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:03:28 <jcheney> zakim, ??P5 is me
15:03:28 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:03:46 <Luc> January 23-24
15:03:52 <Luc> February 2-3
15:03:55 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- 2011-11-03 telecon agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
15:03:58 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:03:59 <GK> Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb
15:04:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:04:03 <Luc> Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton 
15:04:08 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:04:14 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
15:04:17 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov
15:04:18 <GK> ... will set up a poll for expressing preference
15:04:31 <GK> ... locations Amsterdam or Southampton
15:04:45 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aaaa
15:04:56 <GK> Luc: asks about permissions for setting up poll
15:05:02 <GK> Sandro: should have permissions nowq
15:05:12 <GK> s/nowq/now/
15:05:16 <Luc> June 22-23
15:05:26 <Luc> June 22-23, santa barbara
15:05:39 <Luc> July 2 to 6, Boston
15:05:58 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
15:06:13 <Luc> q?
15:06:28 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2
15:06:37 <GK> Luc: Jun dates colocate with IPAW12 - http://www.ipaw.info/ipaw12/
15:06:43 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter
15:06:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
15:06:56 <GK> Luc: Objectives for F2F2 meeting
15:07:18 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me
15:07:18 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:07:21 <GK> ... charter indicates should be at last call for PROV-DM and PROV-O
15:07:40 <GK> ... but don't feel this is realistic for Jan/early Feb
15:08:02 <GK> ... But want to identify what remains to be done to release last calls.
15:08:35 <GK> ... For PAQ, also want to identify what needs to be done to go to last call.
15:08:44 <GK> ... as a NOTE, not REC-track
15:09:48 <GK> PROV-XML (deliverable 5) .. similarly want to identify what id needed.
15:10:36 <GK> Luc: Primer due after M12(?), so identifying roadmap at F2F is goal
15:10:54 <GK> ... similarly for best practice "cookbook"
15:11:08 <pgroth> +q
15:11:19 <GK> ... and call for implementations (?)
15:11:22 <Luc> q?
15:11:51 <GK> Luc: thus... 8 topics is a good fit for 8 sessions at F2F
15:12:08 <GK> ... inputs needed will be:
15:12:14 <GK> ... new version of PROV-DM
15:12:46 <GK> ... released version of PROV-O
15:13:17 <GK> ... second working draft of PAQ, including querying
15:13:29 <GK> ... first version of semantics
15:13:49 <GK> ... first version XML serialization, primer
15:14:04 <GK> ... outline of work plan for deliverable 6 (which is that?)
15:14:38 <GK> pgroth: have question about availability for next F2F in Europe
15:14:49 <smiles> +1 (at least for the Jan dates)
15:14:49 <MacTed> -1
15:14:53 <GK> +0.5 (depends on wife's state of health)
15:14:55 <Yogesh> -1
15:14:55 <Christine> Paul - I joined late. Could you repreat the dates please?
15:15:06 <zednik> -1
15:15:11 <satya> -1
15:15:16 <Paolo> Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb
15:15:16 <dgarijo> +1 ( I think)
15:15:21 <GK> s/(depends on wife's state of health)//
15:15:22 <Christine> +1 Feb
15:15:28 <Paolo> Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton
15:15:31 <GK> (that probably shouldn't be minuted)
15:15:39 <Paolo> +1 (so far)
15:16:10 <Yogesh> Will not be able to travel to Europe...Can join by phone
15:16:15 <GK> Luc: those with -1 response: is it dates or location?
15:16:20 <GK> Stephan: both
15:16:31 <GK> Satya: availability of dates
15:16:41 <Luc> q?
15:16:46 <pgroth> q-
15:17:13 <Luc> q?
15:17:17 <GK> Luc: feedback on objectives for next F2F, and inputs requested?
15:17:28 <smiles> q+
15:17:42 <jcheney> q+
15:17:56 <Luc> ack smiles
15:18:42 <GK> jcheney: semantics means ontology, or separate deliverable.  If separate deliverable, am I the leader?  Need to figure out goals for separate semantics document.
15:19:05 <GK> s/semantics means/does semantics mean/
15:19:32 <Luc> q?
15:19:34 <GK> Luc: asks paul to put agendum in for next week about semantics document
15:19:35 <Luc> ack jch
15:19:54 <dgarijo> yes
15:19:54 <smiles> +1
15:19:55 <satya> +1
15:20:01 <dgarijo> (+1)
15:20:06 <GK> +1
15:20:09 <zednik> +1
15:20:13 <Luc> Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F
15:20:16 <Luc> Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F2
15:20:17 <Paolo> +1
15:20:28 <jcheney> +1
15:20:35 <Luc> Accepted: the objectives and inputs for F2F2
15:20:54 <Luc> Topic: PROV-O 
15:21:04 <GK> (See http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2)
15:21:46 <GK> Satya: report from PROV-O teleconference... alignment of DM and ontology, and other progress
15:21:59 <GK> ... how to model entity roles. Two proposed approaches:
15:22:18 <GK> ... (1) specialize ?? (subproerty of (?) 
15:22:33 <GK> ... (2) use a new class
15:23:12 <GK> ... given complexity of information being modelled.
15:23:44 <GK> ... felt creating n-ary class was more intuitive
15:24:08 <GK> ... explore option of allowing both approaches
15:24:42 <tlebo> my impression from the OWL telecon was that we included both techniques into PROV-O, so neither was excluded.
15:24:51 <GK> ... actions of Luc, Daniel to define appropriate properties for linking the n-ary classes to the appropriate entities
15:24:56 <GK> s.of/on/
15:25:04 <dgarijo> me too! :D
15:25:20 <GK> Luc: wasn't present for action given to me... surprised!
15:25:30 <tlebo> (prov:used to point directly, versus prov:usedUsage points indirectly)
15:25:59 <GK> Satya: we felt you would be in better position as author of OPMO technique
15:26:16 <dgarijo> I thought we were going to use those names already.
15:26:35 <GK> Luc: feels that Tim, Stephan(?) are better placed to choose names.
15:26:50 <tlebo> +1, I can take a stab at the names.
15:26:56 <zednik> I agree with tim and daniel, keep prov:used and prov:hadUsage
15:27:01 <pgroth> +q
15:27:32 <pgroth> q-
15:27:40 <GK> Luc: propose use names from example discussed on Monday, then discuss
15:28:02 <zednik> +1 I am willing to help
15:28:03 <dgarijo> @zednik: I think he is referring to the: entityUsed (or usedCause) properties.
15:28:21 <Luc> q?
15:28:32 <satya>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-10-31#Meeting_Information
15:28:42 <GK> ACTION tlebo: propose names to use
15:28:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Propose names to use [on Timothy Lebo - due 2011-11-10].
15:29:31 <dgarijo> sure
15:29:35 <dgarijo> I can help
15:29:51 <Luc> q?
15:30:13 <GK> Satya: in other sections...
15:30:15 <tlebo> Should we shoot to have the names by Monday noon?
15:30:21 <GK> ... improving readability
15:30:47 <GK> ... also keeping doc aligned with PROV-DM
15:31:02 <Luc> @tlebo, as soon as possible, yes
15:31:04 <GK> ... inference rules may change
15:31:19 <GK> ... hopefully in next couple of days
15:31:30 <GK> Luc: action 40 still in progress
15:32:00 <GK> ... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/40
15:32:08 <GK> Satya: work in progress
15:32:11 <Luc> q?
15:32:20 <dgarijo> +q
15:32:44 <pgroth> +q
15:32:57 <GK> q+ to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity
15:33:34 <GK> Satya: would like to leave examples showing both approaches, 
15:33:35 <tlebo> zeknik's proposal includes the "EntityInRole" approach, no?
15:33:40 <Luc> ack dga
15:33:54 <zednik> @tlebo no
15:33:55 <GK> ??: could be confusing, maybe put examples in another document?
15:34:10 <GK> Satya: will introduce new sections, keep issues separated
15:34:12 <Luc> ack pg
15:34:19 <dgarijo> @Graham: ?? is me
15:34:44 <tlebo> @zednik, s/prov:hadUsage/prov:qualifiedUse/ for the qualified version of prov:used ?
15:34:54 <dgarijo> @Paul: yes, I was wondering exactly about the same thing. If we release 2 approaches, interoperability is going to be an issue!
15:34:56 <GK> pgroth: I think we need to pick one: (1) for interoperability, (2) avoinding confusion, keeping things easy to explain
15:35:03 <tlebo> q+
15:35:07 <tlebo> q-
15:35:17 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:35:21 <GK> ... two ways of modelling same thing shouldn't happen.
15:35:23 <smiles> @pgroth agreed
15:35:33 <dgarijo> @paul:+1
15:35:36 <tlebo> q+ to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).
15:36:08 <pgroth> +q
15:36:16 <dgarijo> @tlebo: no, entityInRole is the concept we decided to drop on monday.
15:36:33 <dgarijo> @tlebo: and replace it with Usage, Generation, Control.
15:36:58 <Paolo> +q
15:37:12 <GK> satya: commenting on modelling alternatives - given preferebnce for n-ary approach, don't see how this can be avoided.
15:37:23 <tlebo> we're just renaming the same design pattern, and including the ability to state it directly AND indirectly.
15:37:35 <GK> luc: I don't think either approach introduces more instances
15:38:02 <tlebo> +1 GK
15:38:15 <Paolo> @Satya: I tried to make it clear that my comment was not putting one approach against the other  -- it was rather provocatively on the OWL/RDF mapping in general
15:38:17 <dgarijo> @tlebo: what we are doing is stoping EntityInRole from being a subclass of Entity. 
15:38:22 <GK> luc: my objection was to introducing (classes) not in PROV-DM
15:38:42 <Paolo> +q
15:38:55 <pgroth> queue
15:39:12 <Luc> ack GK
15:39:12 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity
15:39:16 <GK> satya: can you show how extra nodes don't need to be added for OPMO 
15:39:55 <GK> tim: don't see this as a contention, but new design that subsume's.  Can use either direct or indirect approach
15:39:56 <Luc> ack tl
15:39:56 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).
15:40:55 <GK> pgroth: primer people are saying entityinrole is difficult to describe.  We need one way to model.
15:41:04 <GK> ... would like to see this written down
15:41:38 <Luc> ack pg
15:42:20 <GK> satya: I am not clear about several issues relating to the alternative approach
15:42:40 <GK> pgrioth: stephan and tim have clear idea about what needs to be done
15:42:49 <zednik> q+
15:42:58 <Luc> ack pao
15:43:00 <dgarijo> +1 to ultimate approach
15:43:12 <GK> satya: will not have two approaches, just the alternative approach
15:43:25 <zednik> q-
15:43:41 <pgroth> but that's rdf :-)
15:43:51 <Luc> q?
15:43:52 <Paolo> The EntityInRole approach has 19 nodes, about as many properties, and 3 new OWL classes
15:44:32 <Luc> q?
15:45:02 <tlebo> (the new "Usage, Generation, Control" qualifications of prov:used are subclasses of EntityInRole, but we won't be saying naming EntityInRole or asserting the subclass axioms.)
15:45:15 <Luc> q?
15:45:16 <tlebo> s/saying//
15:45:18 <GK> paolo: node count shouldn't be used as argument for one approach over the other (?)
15:45:46 <GK> Luc: one approach or two?
15:46:08 <GK> Satya: one approach.  New proposed approach, to be included when details are clear
15:46:33 <GK> Luc: when will PROV-O document be finalized?
15:46:36 <tlebo> regarding EntityInRole: we are just renaming it AND permitting "more direct" ways to state less qualified usages.
15:47:05 <GK> ... i.e. available for WG review
15:47:11 <zednik> @tlebo, but the semantics of Usage are different than the semantics of EntityInRole were
15:47:22 <dgarijo> @tim: but we are not just renaming it. EntityInRole is no longer a subclass of an Entity!
15:47:26 <GK> Satya: modelling changes will take time to work through
15:47:55 <GK> Satya: new editorial workover in a couple of days.  Modelling changes will take longer.
15:48:32 <dgarijo> @tlebo: if not, then the issues with double usages and new entity creation for the uses are still there.
15:48:47 <tlebo> @dgarijo, I'm indifferent to whether EntityInRole is a subclass of Entity, it's fine to relax it.
15:49:26 <zednik> I think there is less agreement than was earlier assumed
15:49:34 <Luc> q?
15:49:37 <GK> Luc: worried that rest of author team doesn't seem to agree with new approach
15:49:43 <jcheney> +q
15:50:29 <GK> Satya: can we have another separate call today or tomorrow to work this out.
15:50:42 <tlebo> q+ to say we aren't disagreeing too much.
15:50:49 <GK> Luc: we need you to reach a decision and give the rest of us something to review
15:51:03 <Luc> q?
15:51:25 <GK> Satya: will need some time to come up with missing parts not in OPMO/OWL
15:51:28 <dgarijo> @telbo:  you are saying that EntityInRole being a subclass on an Entity is indiferent. It changes everything.
15:51:29 <Luc> ack jc
15:52:14 <GK> jc: idea was raised as a thought experiment
15:52:17 <tlebo> @dgarigo, stop scaring @luc :-)
15:52:41 <tlebo> s/go/jo/
15:53:06 <GK> ... subgroup doesn't necessarily agree, but if we can forge consensus that one approach is good enough to put out for review and comment, this would be a way forward
15:53:21 <dgarijo> @tlebo: ok, but I just thought we had an agreement after the other day's telecon. I'm ok about having a telecon afterwards though.
15:53:38 <Luc> q?
15:53:43 <GK> tlebo:  not so much disagreeing, just ... converging on new direction?
15:54:10 <tlebo> apologies for making it look like we are disagreeing.
15:54:11 <GK> Luc: team will continue work on document, make it available to WG ASAP
15:54:12 <Luc> ack tl
15:54:12 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say we aren't disagreeing too much.
15:54:27 <Luc> topic: paq document
15:54:29 <GK> Topic: PAQ document
15:55:35 <GK> pgoth: about same as couple of weeks ago.  Have been waiting on things to settle in data model. Also in ontology - as these affect queries and handling of context
15:55:57 <GK> ... expecting it will take about a week to bring this up to date
15:56:00 <GK> ... TODO
15:56:05 <GK> ... context URIs and entities
15:56:20 <GK> ... provenance services
15:56:29 <tlebo> (It's been a while since I've dug through OPMO - where's the best summary?)
15:56:35 <GK> ... incremental updates
15:56:41 <GK> ... editorial
15:56:48 <satya> @Tim: http://openprovenance.org/model/opmo
15:57:28 <Luc> q?
15:57:34 <GK> ... w.r.t. incremental updates:  How to get provenance information incrementally?  Explaining fow to deal with large amounts of provenance?
15:58:28 <tlebo> @satya thanks!
15:58:31 <GK> Luc: do you mean this will be ready by next week?
15:58:50 <GK> Paul: I think we can manage that
15:58:57 <Luc> q?
15:59:05 <Luc> Topic: PROV-DM 
15:59:11 <GK> ACTION Pau: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week
15:59:11 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Pau
15:59:27 <GK> ACTION pgroth: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week
15:59:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-10].
15:59:50 <GK> Topic: PROV-DM
15:59:51 <Luc> Accepted: Rename 'Entity Expression' into 'Entity Record'; similarly, rename 'XXX Expression' into 'XXX Record'. 
16:00:43 <Luc> Accepted: Attributes are a necessary part of prov-dm. Attribute-value pairs can be optionally included in Entity Expressions and Activity Expressions.
16:00:57 <dgarijo> The definition from the incubator: Provenance of a resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering or otherwise influencing that resource. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility.
16:01:32 <GK> Luc: Proposal on attributes - attributes are useful for interop with other provenance representations
16:02:09 <GK> ... questions about constraints associated with attributes; propose to remove these from the data model
16:02:34 <GK> ... we may revisit entity constraints in context of semantics
16:02:39 <Luc> Accepted: Constraints related to attributes will be dropped: (derivation-attributes, use-attributes, generation-affects-attributes) 
16:03:28 <Zakim> +??P17
16:03:40 <Luc> q?
16:03:46 <GK> Luc: second proposal: will not enter into detail of what attributes are "characterizing"
16:04:06 <Luc> q?
16:04:17 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov
16:04:19 <GK> ... will start of document rev with all accepted proposals
16:04:24 <GK> s/of/on/
16:04:30 <pgroth> q?
16:04:46 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
16:04:48 <Zakim> -Yogesh_Simmhan
16:04:50 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:04:50 <Zakim> -jcheney
16:04:51 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:04:52 <GK> End of meeting.
16:04:53 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:04:55 <Zakim> -??P17
16:04:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:04:57 <Zakim> -Paolo
16:04:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:05:02 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:05:08 <Zakim> -Luc
16:05:19 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aaaa
16:05:29 <Zakim> -??P27
16:05:41 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:05:41 <Zakim> -GK
16:06:06 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 
16:06:10 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 
16:06:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-minutes.html Luc
16:06:16 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 
16:08:16 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
16:16:40 <Zakim> -Yolanda
16:16:41 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:16:42 <Zakim> Attendees were GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, MacTed, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, +1.518.633.aaaa, dgarijo
18:32:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #prov