IRC log of prov on 2011-11-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:50:01 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:50:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:50:03 [Zakim]
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14:50:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
14:50:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:50:05 [Luc]
Zakim, this will be PROV
14:50:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:50:06 [Zakim]
ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:50:06 [trackbot]
Date: 03 November 2011
14:50:15 [Luc]
14:50:23 [Luc]
Chair: Luc Moreau
14:50:35 [Luc]
Scribe: Graham Klyne
14:50:41 [Luc]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:50:51 [Luc]
Graham, everything should be set up for you
14:52:49 [GK]
OK, thanks.
14:53:07 [Luc]
thanks for volunteering
14:53:34 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:53:41 [Zakim]
14:53:53 [GK]
zakim, ??p36 is me
14:53:53 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
14:54:14 [pgroth]
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14:56:43 [Luc]
Topic: Admin
14:57:22 [Paolo]
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14:58:03 [tlebo]
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14:58:06 [Paolo]
zakim. ??P16 is me
14:58:13 [Yogesh]
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14:58:16 [Paolo]
zakim,??P16 is me
14:58:16 [Zakim]
+Paolo; got it
14:58:25 [Zakim]
14:58:45 [Zakim]
14:59:05 [Zakim]
14:59:08 [Zakim]
14:59:10 [StephenCresswell]
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14:59:33 [Luc]
@sandro, did you see my message about not being able to create a poll?
15:00:24 [Zakim]
15:00:33 [pgroth]
Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
15:00:33 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
15:00:39 [vinh]
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15:00:44 [Zakim]
15:00:47 [Zakim]
15:00:59 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:59 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:01:01 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:01:01 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:01:19 [smiles]
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15:01:29 [GK]
Luc: intro - see agenda
15:01:33 [Zakim]
15:01:40 [GK]
15:01:46 [Luc]
Proposed: to accept minutes of last week's teleconference
15:01:54 [GK]
... no AOB for agenda
15:02:04 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:02:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, ??P27, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller]
15:02:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see smiles, vinh, StephenCresswell, Yogesh, tlebo, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, GK, GK1, MacTed, trackbot, sandro, stain
15:02:10 [smiles]
15:02:14 [Yogesh]
15:02:17 [GK]
0 (not present)
15:02:17 [Paolo]
(missed it)
15:02:24 [Paolo]
0 (not present)
15:03:04 [jcheney]
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15:03:08 [Luc]
ACCEPTED: minutes of last week's teleconference
15:03:17 [Zakim]
15:03:19 [Luc]
Topic: F2F2 and F2F3
15:03:20 [zednik]
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15:03:28 [jcheney]
zakim, ??P5 is me
15:03:28 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
15:03:46 [Luc]
January 23-24
15:03:52 [Luc]
February 2-3
15:03:55 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- -- 2011-11-03 telecon agenda:
15:03:58 [zednik]
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15:03:59 [GK]
Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb
15:04:00 [Zakim]
15:04:03 [Luc]
Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton
15:04:08 [satya]
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15:04:14 [Zakim]
15:04:17 [Christine]
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15:04:18 [GK]
... will set up a poll for expressing preference
15:04:31 [GK]
... locations Amsterdam or Southampton
15:04:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.633.aaaa
15:04:56 [GK]
Luc: asks about permissions for setting up poll
15:05:02 [GK]
Sandro: should have permissions nowq
15:05:12 [GK]
15:05:16 [Luc]
June 22-23
15:05:26 [Luc]
June 22-23, santa barbara
15:05:39 [Luc]
July 2 to 6, Boston
15:05:58 [dgarijo]
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15:06:13 [Luc]
15:06:28 [Luc]
15:06:37 [GK]
Luc: Jun dates colocate with IPAW12 -
15:06:43 [Luc]
15:06:54 [Zakim]
15:06:56 [GK]
Luc: Objectives for F2F2 meeting
15:07:18 [dgarijo]
Zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me
15:07:18 [Zakim]
+dgarijo; got it
15:07:21 [GK]
... charter indicates should be at last call for PROV-DM and PROV-O
15:07:40 [GK]
... but don't feel this is realistic for Jan/early Feb
15:08:02 [GK]
... But want to identify what remains to be done to release last calls.
15:08:35 [GK]
... For PAQ, also want to identify what needs to be done to go to last call.
15:08:44 [GK]
... as a NOTE, not REC-track
15:09:48 [GK]
PROV-XML (deliverable 5) .. similarly want to identify what id needed.
15:10:36 [GK]
Luc: Primer due after M12(?), so identifying roadmap at F2F is goal
15:10:54 [GK]
... similarly for best practice "cookbook"
15:11:08 [pgroth]
15:11:19 [GK]
... and call for implementations (?)
15:11:22 [Luc]
15:11:51 [GK]
Luc: thus... 8 topics is a good fit for 8 sessions at F2F
15:12:08 [GK]
... inputs needed will be:
15:12:14 [GK]
... new version of PROV-DM
15:12:46 [GK]
... released version of PROV-O
15:13:17 [GK]
... second working draft of PAQ, including querying
15:13:29 [GK]
... first version of semantics
15:13:49 [GK]
... first version XML serialization, primer
15:14:04 [GK]
... outline of work plan for deliverable 6 (which is that?)
15:14:38 [GK]
pgroth: have question about availability for next F2F in Europe
15:14:49 [smiles]
+1 (at least for the Jan dates)
15:14:49 [MacTed]
15:14:53 [GK]
+0.5 (depends on wife's state of health)
15:14:55 [Yogesh]
15:14:55 [Christine]
Paul - I joined late. Could you repreat the dates please?
15:15:06 [zednik]
15:15:11 [satya]
15:15:16 [Paolo]
Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb
15:15:16 [dgarijo]
+1 ( I think)
15:15:21 [GK]
s/(depends on wife's state of health)//
15:15:22 [Christine]
+1 Feb
15:15:28 [Paolo]
Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton
15:15:31 [GK]
(that probably shouldn't be minuted)
15:15:39 [Paolo]
+1 (so far)
15:16:10 [Yogesh]
Will not be able to travel to Europe...Can join by phone
15:16:15 [GK]
Luc: those with -1 response: is it dates or location?
15:16:20 [GK]
Stephan: both
15:16:31 [GK]
Satya: availability of dates
15:16:41 [Luc]
15:16:46 [pgroth]
15:17:13 [Luc]
15:17:17 [GK]
Luc: feedback on objectives for next F2F, and inputs requested?
15:17:28 [smiles]
15:17:42 [jcheney]
15:17:56 [Luc]
ack smiles
15:18:42 [GK]
jcheney: semantics means ontology, or separate deliverable. If separate deliverable, am I the leader? Need to figure out goals for separate semantics document.
15:19:05 [GK]
s/semantics means/does semantics mean/
15:19:32 [Luc]
15:19:34 [GK]
Luc: asks paul to put agendum in for next week about semantics document
15:19:35 [Luc]
ack jch
15:19:54 [dgarijo]
15:19:54 [smiles]
15:19:55 [satya]
15:20:01 [dgarijo]
15:20:06 [GK]
15:20:09 [zednik]
15:20:13 [Luc]
Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F
15:20:16 [Luc]
Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F2
15:20:17 [Paolo]
15:20:28 [jcheney]
15:20:35 [Luc]
Accepted: the objectives and inputs for F2F2
15:20:54 [Luc]
Topic: PROV-O
15:21:04 [GK]
15:21:46 [GK]
Satya: report from PROV-O teleconference... alignment of DM and ontology, and other progress
15:21:59 [GK]
... how to model entity roles. Two proposed approaches:
15:22:18 [GK]
... (1) specialize ?? (subproerty of (?)
15:22:33 [GK]
... (2) use a new class
15:23:12 [GK]
... given complexity of information being modelled.
15:23:44 [GK]
... felt creating n-ary class was more intuitive
15:24:08 [GK]
... explore option of allowing both approaches
15:24:42 [tlebo]
my impression from the OWL telecon was that we included both techniques into PROV-O, so neither was excluded.
15:24:51 [GK]
... actions of Luc, Daniel to define appropriate properties for linking the n-ary classes to the appropriate entities
15:24:56 [GK]
15:25:04 [dgarijo]
me too! :D
15:25:20 [GK]
Luc: wasn't present for action given to me... surprised!
15:25:30 [tlebo]
(prov:used to point directly, versus prov:usedUsage points indirectly)
15:25:59 [GK]
Satya: we felt you would be in better position as author of OPMO technique
15:26:16 [dgarijo]
I thought we were going to use those names already.
15:26:35 [GK]
Luc: feels that Tim, Stephan(?) are better placed to choose names.
15:26:50 [tlebo]
+1, I can take a stab at the names.
15:26:56 [zednik]
I agree with tim and daniel, keep prov:used and prov:hadUsage
15:27:01 [pgroth]
15:27:32 [pgroth]
15:27:40 [GK]
Luc: propose use names from example discussed on Monday, then discuss
15:28:02 [zednik]
+1 I am willing to help
15:28:03 [dgarijo]
@zednik: I think he is referring to the: entityUsed (or usedCause) properties.
15:28:21 [Luc]
15:28:32 [satya]
15:28:42 [GK]
ACTION tlebo: propose names to use
15:28:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-41 - Propose names to use [on Timothy Lebo - due 2011-11-10].
15:29:31 [dgarijo]
15:29:35 [dgarijo]
I can help
15:29:51 [Luc]
15:30:13 [GK]
Satya: in other sections...
15:30:15 [tlebo]
Should we shoot to have the names by Monday noon?
15:30:21 [GK]
... improving readability
15:30:47 [GK]
... also keeping doc aligned with PROV-DM
15:31:02 [Luc]
@tlebo, as soon as possible, yes
15:31:04 [GK]
... inference rules may change
15:31:19 [GK]
... hopefully in next couple of days
15:31:30 [GK]
Luc: action 40 still in progress
15:32:00 [GK]
15:32:08 [GK]
Satya: work in progress
15:32:11 [Luc]
15:32:20 [dgarijo]
15:32:44 [pgroth]
15:32:57 [GK]
q+ to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity
15:33:34 [GK]
Satya: would like to leave examples showing both approaches,
15:33:35 [tlebo]
zeknik's proposal includes the "EntityInRole" approach, no?
15:33:40 [Luc]
ack dga
15:33:54 [zednik]
@tlebo no
15:33:55 [GK]
??: could be confusing, maybe put examples in another document?
15:34:10 [GK]
Satya: will introduce new sections, keep issues separated
15:34:12 [Luc]
ack pg
15:34:19 [dgarijo]
@Graham: ?? is me
15:34:44 [tlebo]
@zednik, s/prov:hadUsage/prov:qualifiedUse/ for the qualified version of prov:used ?
15:34:54 [dgarijo]
@Paul: yes, I was wondering exactly about the same thing. If we release 2 approaches, interoperability is going to be an issue!
15:34:56 [GK]
pgroth: I think we need to pick one: (1) for interoperability, (2) avoinding confusion, keeping things easy to explain
15:35:03 [tlebo]
15:35:07 [tlebo]
15:35:17 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:35:21 [GK]
... two ways of modelling same thing shouldn't happen.
15:35:23 [smiles]
@pgroth agreed
15:35:33 [dgarijo]
15:35:36 [tlebo]
q+ to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).
15:36:08 [pgroth]
15:36:16 [dgarijo]
@tlebo: no, entityInRole is the concept we decided to drop on monday.
15:36:33 [dgarijo]
@tlebo: and replace it with Usage, Generation, Control.
15:36:58 [Paolo]
15:37:12 [GK]
satya: commenting on modelling alternatives - given preferebnce for n-ary approach, don't see how this can be avoided.
15:37:23 [tlebo]
we're just renaming the same design pattern, and including the ability to state it directly AND indirectly.
15:37:35 [GK]
luc: I don't think either approach introduces more instances
15:38:02 [tlebo]
+1 GK
15:38:15 [Paolo]
@Satya: I tried to make it clear that my comment was not putting one approach against the other -- it was rather provocatively on the OWL/RDF mapping in general
15:38:17 [dgarijo]
@tlebo: what we are doing is stoping EntityInRole from being a subclass of Entity.
15:38:22 [GK]
luc: my objection was to introducing (classes) not in PROV-DM
15:38:42 [Paolo]
15:38:55 [pgroth]
15:39:12 [Luc]
ack GK
15:39:12 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity
15:39:16 [GK]
satya: can you show how extra nodes don't need to be added for OPMO
15:39:55 [GK]
tim: don't see this as a contention, but new design that subsume's. Can use either direct or indirect approach
15:39:56 [Luc]
ack tl
15:39:56 [Zakim]
tlebo, you wanted to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).
15:40:55 [GK]
pgroth: primer people are saying entityinrole is difficult to describe. We need one way to model.
15:41:04 [GK]
... would like to see this written down
15:41:38 [Luc]
ack pg
15:42:20 [GK]
satya: I am not clear about several issues relating to the alternative approach
15:42:40 [GK]
pgrioth: stephan and tim have clear idea about what needs to be done
15:42:49 [zednik]
15:42:58 [Luc]
ack pao
15:43:00 [dgarijo]
+1 to ultimate approach
15:43:12 [GK]
satya: will not have two approaches, just the alternative approach
15:43:25 [zednik]
15:43:41 [pgroth]
but that's rdf :-)
15:43:51 [Luc]
15:43:52 [Paolo]
The EntityInRole approach has 19 nodes, about as many properties, and 3 new OWL classes
15:44:32 [Luc]
15:45:02 [tlebo]
(the new "Usage, Generation, Control" qualifications of prov:used are subclasses of EntityInRole, but we won't be saying naming EntityInRole or asserting the subclass axioms.)
15:45:15 [Luc]
15:45:16 [tlebo]
15:45:18 [GK]
paolo: node count shouldn't be used as argument for one approach over the other (?)
15:45:46 [GK]
Luc: one approach or two?
15:46:08 [GK]
Satya: one approach. New proposed approach, to be included when details are clear
15:46:33 [GK]
Luc: when will PROV-O document be finalized?
15:46:36 [tlebo]
regarding EntityInRole: we are just renaming it AND permitting "more direct" ways to state less qualified usages.
15:47:05 [GK]
... i.e. available for WG review
15:47:11 [zednik]
@tlebo, but the semantics of Usage are different than the semantics of EntityInRole were
15:47:22 [dgarijo]
@tim: but we are not just renaming it. EntityInRole is no longer a subclass of an Entity!
15:47:26 [GK]
Satya: modelling changes will take time to work through
15:47:55 [GK]
Satya: new editorial workover in a couple of days. Modelling changes will take longer.
15:48:32 [dgarijo]
@tlebo: if not, then the issues with double usages and new entity creation for the uses are still there.
15:48:47 [tlebo]
@dgarijo, I'm indifferent to whether EntityInRole is a subclass of Entity, it's fine to relax it.
15:49:26 [zednik]
I think there is less agreement than was earlier assumed
15:49:34 [Luc]
15:49:37 [GK]
Luc: worried that rest of author team doesn't seem to agree with new approach
15:49:43 [jcheney]
15:50:29 [GK]
Satya: can we have another separate call today or tomorrow to work this out.
15:50:42 [tlebo]
q+ to say we aren't disagreeing too much.
15:50:49 [GK]
Luc: we need you to reach a decision and give the rest of us something to review
15:51:03 [Luc]
15:51:25 [GK]
Satya: will need some time to come up with missing parts not in OPMO/OWL
15:51:28 [dgarijo]
@telbo: you are saying that EntityInRole being a subclass on an Entity is indiferent. It changes everything.
15:51:29 [Luc]
ack jc
15:52:14 [GK]
jc: idea was raised as a thought experiment
15:52:17 [tlebo]
@dgarigo, stop scaring @luc :-)
15:52:41 [tlebo]
15:53:06 [GK]
... subgroup doesn't necessarily agree, but if we can forge consensus that one approach is good enough to put out for review and comment, this would be a way forward
15:53:21 [dgarijo]
@tlebo: ok, but I just thought we had an agreement after the other day's telecon. I'm ok about having a telecon afterwards though.
15:53:38 [Luc]
15:53:43 [GK]
tlebo: not so much disagreeing, just ... converging on new direction?
15:54:10 [tlebo]
apologies for making it look like we are disagreeing.
15:54:11 [GK]
Luc: team will continue work on document, make it available to WG ASAP
15:54:12 [Luc]
ack tl
15:54:12 [Zakim]
tlebo, you wanted to say we aren't disagreeing too much.
15:54:27 [Luc]
topic: paq document
15:54:29 [GK]
Topic: PAQ document
15:55:35 [GK]
pgoth: about same as couple of weeks ago. Have been waiting on things to settle in data model. Also in ontology - as these affect queries and handling of context
15:55:57 [GK]
... expecting it will take about a week to bring this up to date
15:56:00 [GK]
... TODO
15:56:05 [GK]
... context URIs and entities
15:56:20 [GK]
... provenance services
15:56:29 [tlebo]
(It's been a while since I've dug through OPMO - where's the best summary?)
15:56:35 [GK]
... incremental updates
15:56:41 [GK]
... editorial
15:56:48 [satya]
15:57:28 [Luc]
15:57:34 [GK]
... w.r.t. incremental updates: How to get provenance information incrementally? Explaining fow to deal with large amounts of provenance?
15:58:28 [tlebo]
@satya thanks!
15:58:31 [GK]
Luc: do you mean this will be ready by next week?
15:58:50 [GK]
Paul: I think we can manage that
15:58:57 [Luc]
15:59:05 [Luc]
Topic: PROV-DM
15:59:11 [GK]
ACTION Pau: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week
15:59:11 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Pau
15:59:27 [GK]
ACTION pgroth: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week
15:59:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-42 - Drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-10].
15:59:50 [GK]
Topic: PROV-DM
15:59:51 [Luc]
Accepted: Rename 'Entity Expression' into 'Entity Record'; similarly, rename 'XXX Expression' into 'XXX Record'.
16:00:43 [Luc]
Accepted: Attributes are a necessary part of prov-dm. Attribute-value pairs can be optionally included in Entity Expressions and Activity Expressions.
16:00:57 [dgarijo]
The definition from the incubator: Provenance of a resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering or otherwise influencing that resource. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility.
16:01:32 [GK]
Luc: Proposal on attributes - attributes are useful for interop with other provenance representations
16:02:09 [GK]
... questions about constraints associated with attributes; propose to remove these from the data model
16:02:34 [GK]
... we may revisit entity constraints in context of semantics
16:02:39 [Luc]
Accepted: Constraints related to attributes will be dropped: (derivation-attributes, use-attributes, generation-affects-attributes)
16:03:28 [Zakim]
16:03:40 [Luc]
16:03:46 [GK]
Luc: second proposal: will not enter into detail of what attributes are "characterizing"
16:04:06 [Luc]
16:04:17 [dcorsar]
dcorsar has joined #prov
16:04:19 [GK]
... will start of document rev with all accepted proposals
16:04:24 [GK]
16:04:30 [pgroth]
16:04:46 [Zakim]
16:04:48 [Zakim]
16:04:50 [Zakim]
16:04:50 [Zakim]
16:04:51 [Zakim]
16:04:52 [GK]
End of meeting.
16:04:53 [Zakim]
16:04:55 [Zakim]
16:04:55 [Zakim]
16:04:57 [Zakim]
16:04:58 [Zakim]
16:05:02 [Zakim]
16:05:08 [Zakim]
16:05:19 [Zakim]
- +1.518.633.aaaa
16:05:29 [Zakim]
16:05:41 [Zakim]
16:05:41 [Zakim]
16:06:06 [Luc]
rrsagent, set log public
16:06:10 [Luc]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Luc
16:06:16 [Luc]
trackbot, end telcon
16:08:16 [trackbot]
Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to for help
16:16:40 [Zakim]
16:16:41 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:16:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, MacTed, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, +1.518.633.aaaa, dgarijo
18:32:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #prov