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00:17:45 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14682] New: Listed, submittable, <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0201.html> 4** [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0200.html>
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01:17:57 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0203.html> 4** [Bug 12393] Add "allow-popups" for iframe@sandbox <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0202.html>
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03:48:34 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14683] New: this site is very good <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0205.html> 4** [Bug 14548] Grouping Content: algorithm for incrementing value (OL->LI @value) does not match any current user agent <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0204.html>
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06:19:15 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14683] this site is very good <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0206.html>
07:49:38 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0207.html>
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08:19:46 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0208.html>
08:49:55 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0210.html> 4** [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0209.html>
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09:50:11 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11984] Simplify <video> for implementors and authors by ignoring the Content-Type HTTP header <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0211.html>
10:20:18 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10694] Specify window.console <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0212.html>
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12:48:54 <pimpbot> planet: Robert Nyman: Mozilla Hacks Weekly, November 3rd 2011 <11http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/11/mozilla-hacks-weekly-november-3rd-2011/>
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14:21:17 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14686] New: I'm a little worried about deprecating nearly all the table attributes. I have a web application which I have worked on for the past 5 years, I have already started incorporating HTML5 into it. But, if support for tables is removed, my web application w <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0213.html>
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15:21:32 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14687] New: uhi u hiu hiuh ih ihih hhiuhiu hhhhih hh oih iuh iho hoih h oi <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0214.html>
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15:51:42 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14499] Need ability to reset Canvas clipping region without resetting all other Canvas state <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0218.html> 4** [Bug 14526] WF2: When adding filenames to the data set, should there be normalization of decomposed forms? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0215.html> 4** [Bug 14687] uhi u hiu hiuh ih ihih hhiuhiu hhhhih hh oih iuh iho hoih h o
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16:06:58 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
16:07:21 <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML WG f2f
16:07:28 <MikeSmith> Topic: Intro
16:07:42 <MikeSmith> paulc: will be doing things un-conference style
16:07:51 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
16:07:56 <MikeSmith> paulc: I propose we meet 9 to 5 both days
16:08:03 <JF> JF has joined #html-wg
16:08:13 <MikeSmith> [discussing room logistics]
16:08:20 <YW> YW has joined #html-wg
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16:11:52 <MikeSmith> paulc: MikeSmith and others will need to be at the AC meeting from 10:45 to 11:15
16:12:18 <MikeSmith> paulc: propose we have the joint meeting with the Web and TV IG after lunch today
16:12:24 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:12:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:12:38 <krisk> krisk has joined #html-wg
16:12:46 <MikeSmith> paulc: several people have traveled to TPAC for the Web and TV meeting
16:13:14 <MikeSmith> paulc: we will plan 1 hour for that session
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16:13:38 <pimpbot> changes: sam: Correct link to issue 174 change proposal <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0016.html>
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16:14:11 <MikeSmith> paulc: we are not planning to have a phone bridge
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16:14:18 <MikeSmith> ... can skype people in
16:14:55 <MikeSmith> [doing self-intros around the room]
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16:17:12 <MikeSmith> Topic: Suggested topics for discussion
16:17:20 <MikeSmith> tantek: <time> element
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16:17:38 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #html-wg
16:18:14 <MikeSmith> james_graham: practical test-writing session
16:18:18 <MikeSmith> paulc: Test Writing: Just Do It
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16:18:39 <MikeSmith> plh: report from Kris Kruger on Testing TF
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16:19:45 <MikeSmith> giuseppe: Web on TV session
16:20:11 <MikeSmith> annevk: report on HTML Decision Policy bar camp session
16:20:32 <MikeSmith> karl: Last Week in the HTML WG
16:20:51 <MikeSmith> frank: canvas accessibility
16:21:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:21:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:21:16 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
16:21:40 <MikeSmith> steve_faulkner: conveying activity to the mailing list; reporting
16:21:47 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14176] onerror: If the script is not same-origin, window.onerror should be invoked with arguments ("Script error.", "", 0) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0228.html> 4** [Bug 14177] onerror: If the script is not same-origin, window.onerror should be invoked with arguments ("Script error.", "", 0) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0227.html> 4** [Bug 14182] onerror: s
16:22:19 <MikeSmith> kris_kruger: feedback on the test harness
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16:22:45 <JF> zakim, who's here?
16:22:45 <Zakim> sorry, JF, I don't know what conference this is
16:22:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see kaz, jihye, jamesn, eric_carlson, ArtB, frankolivier, evanli, LJW, Stevef, mark, junya, JanL, weinig, Mohammed, ChrisWilson, plh, hiroki, howard, krisk, adrianba,
16:22:51 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: HTML.next
16:22:51 <Zakim> ... gang, Ruinan, bkihara, YW, JF, richardschwerdtfe, eliot, stpeter, YUMA, dowan, kensaku_, MichaelC, a12u, kimberly, si-wei, dsinger, paulc, myakura_, Zakim, Julian, karl,
16:22:55 <Zakim> ... lgombos, MikeSmith, drublic_, davidb, webben, Joshue, hsivonen, nonge_, arronei, trackbot, Hixie, duri, pingo, gavin_, Dashiva, hober, heycam, jmb, johndrinkwater, [tm], CIA-1,
16:22:57 <Zakim> ... pimpbot, krijnh
16:23:22 <MikeSmith> steve: where are we at with change proposals; issue/CP status
16:23:39 <MikeSmith> sam: discuss reopen requests at the same time?
16:23:53 <MikeSmith> janina: longdesc
16:24:11 <MikeSmith> ... discuss the alternatives that have been proposed
16:24:30 <MikeSmith> adrianba: status of where we are in the schedule, what the next steps are
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16:24:53 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:24:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:24:54 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
16:25:10 <MikeSmith> Stevef: <dialog> element
16:25:25 <MikeSmith> Stevef: <hgroup> element
16:27:12 <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe the lack of technical discussions being proposed indicates that we're done
16:27:55 <MikeSmith> peter: URI/IRI
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16:29:15 <MikeSmith> paulc: thanks tantek (yesterday's bar camp)
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16:31:00 <MikeSmith> tantek: <time> element was recently dropped from the spec; goal of this session would be to gather interested parties to write a change proposal
16:31:56 <MikeSmith> james_graham: test-writing session: If you don't know how to write test cases, we'll teach you
16:32:20 <MikeSmith> krisk: 1 full hour for test-suite report
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16:33:13 <MikeSmith> plh: people want to comment on the decision policy rather than hear a summary of it
16:33:39 <tantek> karlpro just denied being Mr. Last Week
16:33:44 <karl> Last Week/Month in Open Web Techno http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/
16:33:45 <pimpbot> Title: Open Web - W3C Blog - Category Archives (at www.w3.org)
16:33:50 <MikeSmith> karl: I've been writing a weekly report on the HTML WG; I would like to hear suggestions on how to improve it
16:34:01 <karl> there is also the one written by anne
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16:34:12 <karl> on whatwg blog
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16:34:41 <MikeSmith> richardschwerdtfe: we have been discussing hit testing
16:34:46 <MikeSmith> ... for canvas
16:35:02 <MikeSmith> ... get the bounds of objects in fallback content
16:35:26 <MikeSmith> ... getting path info
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16:36:13 <MikeSmith> Stevef: activity is occurring in isolated bug reports, difficult to follow it all
16:36:38 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: would it be appropriate to consider that a "project management" topic?
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16:37:31 <MikeSmith> james_graham: discussion about the test harness with Mozilla folks can take place outside the f2f
16:38:11 <MikeSmith> Stevef: there are quite a few issues that are sitting on the chairs' desk; would like to know what's happening with them
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16:39:40 <MikeSmith> cynthia: a11y API working session
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16:40:12 <MikeSmith> ... would be helpful to make sure we have someone with a Mac at that session
16:41:19 <MikeSmith> 11 people for <time> session
16:41:19 <MikeSmith> 11 people for writing test cases
16:41:53 <MikeSmith> 9 people for HTML Decision Policy bar-camp session
16:42:29 <MikeSmith> 14 for reporting on WG activity
16:43:14 <MikeSmith> 15 for canvas accessibily
16:43:59 <MikeSmith> 18 for HTML.next
16:44:24 <MikeSmith> 7 for CP/Issue status
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16:44:57 <MikeSmith> 6 for longdesc
16:45:12 <MikeSmith> 6 for dialog element
16:45:38 <MikeSmith> 7 for hgroup
16:46:02 <MikeSmith> 4 for issue-56 URI/IRI discussion
16:46:40 <MikeSmith> 2 for a11y API mappings discussion
16:46:48 <MikeSmith> 11 for schedule, status, next steps
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16:51:57 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12547] <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires readyState for grouped multitrack <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0234.html> 4** [Bug 13995] <track> Don't check Content-Type for <track> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0233.html> 4** [Bug 11984] Simplify <video> for implementors and authors by ignoring the Content-Type HTTP header <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/pu
16:52:31 <MikeSmith> A. WG status
16:52:39 <MikeSmith> B. HTML.Next
16:52:48 <MikeSmith> C. Canvas accessibility
16:52:58 <MikeSmith> D. Web and TV
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16:53:12 <MikeSmith> E. <time> element
16:53:20 <MikeSmith> F. Testing HTML
16:53:39 <MikeSmith> G. Issue discussion
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16:56:48 <anne> maybe someone should connect a computer to the screen upfront and type out the schedule?
16:56:53 <anne> would be more accessible too
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17:00:45 <tantek> to be clear, <time> session is about a change proposal to add <time>, as defined in the spec and inclusive of additional granularity with rough consensus as documented here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#Date_granularity 
17:00:48 <pimpbot> Title: Time element - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
17:02:14 <MikeSmith> H. a11y API mapping
17:05:24 <MikeSmith> [working on schedule / time slots]
17:05:55 <myakura> just a placeholder: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda
17:05:56 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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17:09:12 <krisk> room claps for krisk
17:09:14 <MikeSmith> scribe: krisk 
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17:09:34 <krisk> Canvas Accessibility Session
17:10:13 <krisk> franko: Solution for providing canvas accessibilty using 'sub dom'
17:10:40 <krisk> franko: canvas UI's exist that have multiple UI elements
17:11:00 <krisk> franko: screenreaders have no solution to track focus on each element
17:11:11 <krisk> rich: It
17:11:25 <krisk> ..not just about screenreaders it's also for magnifiers
17:11:48 <krisk> shelly: keyboard users also need to see the see focus rects
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17:12:28 <krisk> franko: context.setElementPath is used to set an area
17:13:39 <myakura> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda#Thursday.2C_3_November_2011
17:13:40 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
17:13:42 <krisk> franko: call takes an element param, which events can be set to the 'sub dom'
17:13:58 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: compat changes for <textarea>.value and .textLength (whatwg r6815) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0017.html>
17:14:16 <krisk> anne: given we are going to add path objects at somepoint in the future
17:14:39 <krisk> anne: ...wouldn't it be better to use path objects for this problem
17:15:22 <krisk> rich: calrification on anne's suggest
17:15:35 <krisk> anne: it's just re-usesable path objects
17:16:57 <krisk> msj: in many common 2d systems you'll want to re-use paths
17:17:21 <krisk> msj: not clear that this use case will have this ability
17:17:24 <hober> s/msj/mjs/
17:17:45 <krisk> franko: we should have a longer discussion about this
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17:18:11 <krisk> franko: we don't want to store a bitmap, rather a vectorize 
17:18:12 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:18:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
17:18:13 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
17:18:19 <krisk> franko: Next part is about hittesting
17:18:32 <krisk> franko: want to make hittesting support easier of the author
17:18:39 <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011 HTML WG TPAC 2011 agenda
17:18:40 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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17:19:17 <krisk> franko: use case is a single click (checkbox), or immediate action (button)
17:19:41 <krisk> franko: attribute 'hittest' would solve this
17:19:55 <krisk> mjs: why would you use the x and y?
17:20:14 <krisk> rich: you won't lose the x and y?
17:21:00 <krisk> mjs: seems simpler to always to hittesting and just pass the information through
17:21:18 <krisk> rich: Anne are you asking to place the hittesting back on the canvas element?
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17:21:58 <krisk> Anne: Pointer events should solve this - when you click on an element you should be able to send events to sub elements
17:22:02 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13983] WF2: It seems like textarea's raw value should always normalize newlines to \n <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0241.html> 4** [Bug 14260] <track> "text tracks ready" and HTMLMediaElement.readyState <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0240.html> 4** [Bug 13983] WF2: It seems like textarea's raw value should always normalize newlines to \n <11http://lists.w3.org/
17:22:24 <krisk> mjs: pointer events don't work in this case, you would need to re-target the events
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17:22:39 <krisk> rich: are you supportive of this?
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17:23:13 <krisk> mjs: I have just seen this proposal - though initially it seems to only need the one mode to satisfy the use case
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17:25:13 <krisk> rich: shows the first idea for setPathForElement from draft spec
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17:25:54 <krisk> * if someone can drop a link to the draft spec for this that would be super
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17:26:34 <krisk> rich: All the events get passed like a pointer event
17:26:44 <krisk> shelly: why the z-index?
17:27:12 <krisk> rich: explains why z-index is needed to NOT set focus to a background object
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17:27:55 <krisk> mjs: it's not clear that z-index will work
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17:28:33 <krisk> franko: simalar to how last draw wins, setpath would do the same
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17:28:47 <krisk> shelly: seems much simpler to have last draw win
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17:28:52 <krisk> ...due to other bugs
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17:29:46 <krisk> anne: not sure how element fits into this
17:30:22 <krisk> franko: the elements in a subdom have not size or position
17:30:55 <krisk> franko: in IE9 you can give elements postion and size that map to canvas that then will get pickd up by a screenreader
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17:31:56 <krisk> rich: you can also have the keyboard and mouse handlers on the same element
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17:32:23 <krisk> anne: this is only accessibility right? not css om?
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17:33:01 <krisk> franko: correct
17:33:39 <krisk> franko: we have some more work to do onthis draft, though do we think this is the right direction to solve canvas accessibility?
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17:33:59 <krisk> rich: jonas (mozilla) suggest a scroll into view, does that make sense?
17:34:07 <krisk> anne: yes..
17:34:18 <krisk> rich: do we need to add this to this draft proposal?
17:34:31 <krisk> ...I could use some help on this from you anne
17:34:36 <krisk> anne: yes...
17:34:48 <krisk> rich: now on to focus ring...
17:35:23 <krisk> rich: Please take a peek at Focus management...
17:35:52 <krisk> drawSystemFocusRing/drawCustomFocusRing
17:36:03 <krisk> rich: mjs can you take a peek at this?
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17:36:31 <krisk> rich: this allows the system to do the right thing...
17:36:59 <krisk> rich: customfocusring can be used to by magnifiers
17:37:13 <krisk> mjs: it's not totally clear to me
17:37:33 <krisk> rich: we have one function before, now we have two
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17:38:19 <krisk> rich: mjs do you see the subtle diff, I have two points of feedback
17:38:49 <krisk> mjs: one issue, if you used a bitmap or from another canvas to create a custom focus ring
17:39:15 <krisk> mjs: next issue, you could use a opacity and end up not drawing a focus ring...
17:39:25 <krisk> ...but it defeats the purpose of path drawing...
17:39:59 <krisk> ..it also seems that these two methods are not needed
17:40:01 <anne> It seems scrollPathIntoView() is already covered: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#dom-context-2d-scrollpathintoview
17:40:02 <pimpbot> Title: 4.8.11 The canvas element HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)
17:40:55 <krisk> mjs: how can we address the issue when the author draws a focus ring that doesn't match the magnifier
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17:42:12 <krisk> mjs: the least path of resistance is to to auto set focus ring
17:42:26 <krisk> rich: it may not be critical to have path for everything
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17:42:47 <krisk> franko: seems that this would make it easier for dev, if a UA would autodraw focus ring
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17:43:17 <krisk> rich: seems like you want to have a system foucs ring (to get system focus ring defaults)
17:44:01 <krisk> mjs: my suggestion is that these focus ring calls, calling these on the path would seem to work simalar to css outline
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17:44:37 <krisk> mjs: you need to deal with repainting when focus goes away..
17:45:13 <krisk> mjs: you don't want to cache this...
17:45:28 <krisk> mjs: normally this done by a dirty rect that is then repainted
17:45:57 <krisk> mjs: a UA can't do this correctly when other drawing has occured
17:46:45 <krisk> shelly: did we solve this with the set path?
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17:47:17 <krisk> mjs: no 
17:47:34 <krisk> franko: doesn't seem that we are optimizing for the main use case
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17:48:38 <krisk> mjs: you want to make this general and not use this if they can't get focus rings correct they will do their own focus ring painting
17:48:51 <krisk> ...which then will break magnifiers
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17:49:26 <krisk> mjs: if you don't want to handle this complexity then you need to just use normal elements
17:50:08 <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: "But then if we do not ever make <time>, how can we ever have <time>?" #Merovingian #HTML5 #TPAC #TPAC2011 <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t3/make-time-have-time-merovingian-html5-tpac-tpac2011> 4** Tantek: proposed a "<time> element" session for the HTML Working Group meeting. #TPAC #HTML5 irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t2/proposed-time-element-session-html-group-tpac-html5>
17:50:13 <krisk> franko: it seems that you could add this to canvas and solve some of problems that canvas has today
17:50:21 <richardschwerdtfe> link to draft proposal for hit testing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Oct/att-0137/clickableregion.html
17:50:22 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Canvas 2D Context (at lists.w3.org)
17:51:14 <krisk> mjs: canvas to canvas is a case that doesn't seem to work with this proposal
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17:51:36 <krisk> ..happy to look at a propsal that would solve this...
17:52:06 <drublic> drublic has joined #html-wg
17:52:12 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14688] New: fhfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhg giuhgiuhiuhi hbkhikhiuhbi ihbihbjhbjhb <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0243.html> 4** [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as opposed to scripts), the data must be embedded inline <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0242.html>
17:52:14 <krisk> franko: let's review what we have now and write up another proposal
17:52:39 <krisk> franko: I'd like write up how a UA could automatically take care of focus ring drawing..
17:52:47 <krisk> rich: thanks for the feedback mjs
17:53:13 <krisk> mjs: anyother comments about this draft propsal
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17:53:46 <krisk> alex: seems odd that this is for only certain elements which seems weird?
17:54:03 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #html-wg
17:54:17 <krisk> alex: is this for canvas only or any element?
17:54:26 <krisk> franko: only canvas
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17:54:46 <krisk> alex: this is to solve the special case for solving accessibility
17:55:08 <DeviaVir> DeviaVir has joined #html-wg
17:55:18 <krisk> ..which doesn't map to other needs to handle special hit testing
17:55:56 <krisk> mjs: this enable to forward hit testing to another sub dom
17:56:33 <krisk> alex: this seems to lead to badness where the the logical dom doesn't map to what is visually shown
17:57:15 <krisk> anne: I think alex makes a good point...once we get 'components' then we can solve this disconnect
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17:58:15 <krisk> mjs: three minutes left - not enough time to discuss this complexity
17:58:37 <krisk> mjs: break time, starting again at 11:30am
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18:04:17 <myakura> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011
18:04:19 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
18:04:26 <myakura> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html myakura
18:04:27 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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18:22:17 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12547] <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires readyState for grouped multitrack <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0244.html>
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18:31:50 <krisk> Time Element...
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18:32:11 <myakura> Topic: the <time> element
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18:33:11 <krisk> tantek: let's get started
18:33:22 <krisk> tantek: recently this was drop'd from the space
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18:33:37 <krisk> ..spec
18:34:03 <krisk> tantek: Potential to add back a more powerful time element
18:34:14 <krisk> tantek: summary add back + more
18:34:36 <myakura> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element
18:34:37 <pimpbot> Title: User:Tantekelik/time element - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)
18:34:43 <krisk> tantek: for year dates, month days...etc...
18:35:02 <krisk> tantek: v-card4 expanded to include these uses
18:35:20 <krisk> ...addition to these obvious ones..two more exists
18:35:26 <krisk> time zone and duration
18:35:45 <krisk> ...lots' of useage...
18:35:57 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
18:36:27 <krisk> ..apps can use this to deal this the lack of timezone context
18:36:41 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:36:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
18:36:42 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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18:36:46 <krisk> tanket: Ask group - any use cases missed?
18:36:56 <krisk> mjs: can we see use cases of each?
18:37:03 <krisk> tanket: lets' take year only...
18:37:26 <krisk> ...YYYY
18:37:51 <krisk> tantek: wikipedia and copyright uses a 'year only', e.g. 1999
18:38:12 <krisk> tantek: year month is used alot on bloging...
18:38:41 <krisk> Time element doesn't match HTML5 input types, which is a mismatch
18:39:16 <krisk> ..another example is credit card dates
18:40:13 <krisk> tantek: Month Day - e.g 12-25 (x-mas) or a birthday
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18:40:52 <krisk> tantek: duration: use case is it's not possible to differential from a time
18:40:58 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #html-wg
18:41:20 <krisk> ..for example 2:30 is this 2:30pm or a movie that lasts two and a half hours
18:41:58 <krisk> tantek: it's implemented by a few others and it seems to work...
18:42:16 <krisk> ...since people are using this...
18:42:30 <krisk> tantek: generally do we want more specific or more generic elements?
18:43:02 <krisk> ...div is very generic and could be a span or header, group, etc..
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18:43:50 <krisk> though we have gone down the more specific and added many more specific elements that can be created by a div
18:44:13 <krisk> anne: not clear why we need this..
18:44:50 <krisk> tantek: people incorrectly parse times and get the wrong information
18:45:13 <krisk> james: you can still get this wrong...
18:45:32 <krisk> ...for example a birthday on a page using a time element, could be considered a publishing date
18:45:56 <karl> performance on querying the DOM? parsing all data elements instead of only time?
18:46:12 <krisk> tanket: this is not true...
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18:46:25 <krisk> james: the time element is not going to solve this use case
18:46:42 <krisk> mjs: I'd like to jump in and comment
18:46:57 <krisk> tantek: the search engine example is a little vague
18:47:27 <krisk> mjs: another use case is to search for a date, what happend on 11/3/2011?
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18:47:49 <krisk> mjs: it's possible that search engines could use a time element for this use case
18:48:14 <krisk> mjs: not sure if this is a primary use case but, it is a use case
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18:49:23 <krisk> tantek: I am drawing from example of real use cases for search engines
18:49:50 <krisk> james: we don't have a location element for example...why not?
18:50:24 <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: #HTML5 time element discussion <time>11:30</time> <time datetime=2011-11-03>today</time>: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011#Day_1 <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t5/html5-time-element-discussion-today>
18:50:24 <krisk> tantek: we do in geolocation and I encourage you to take a peek at these WGs
18:50:33 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:50:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
18:50:34 <krisk> james: we're not adding a location element though...
18:50:34 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
18:50:47 <krisk> tantek: we may...
18:51:30 <krisk> mjs: we do have evidence that search engines are doing this heuroistically
18:51:46 <karl> we born with a date, a location and a name 
18:51:49 <krisk> ..which they get wrong, so by adding it helps search engines
18:52:16 <krisk> mjs: calrification on james...
18:52:28 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14526] WF2: When adding filenames to the data set, should there be normalization of decomposed forms? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0245.html>
18:52:31 <krisk> ..question...
18:52:50 <krisk> james: I'm claiming that time is less useful than something claiming it's a heading
18:53:52 <krisk> alex: how do we add new elements into html that has good use case for searching..
18:54:21 <krisk> ..Microdata has prove the use and if html doesn't add new elements it won't have a future
18:55:26 <krisk> tantek: We have highly generalized neeeds and data shows that it's has a need
18:55:35 <krisk> ...for the time element
18:56:16 <krisk> tantek: we not asking to add new elements for tags that are highly specialized (volcano)
18:56:50 <krisk> tantek: we are not adding alot of elements to html, so it's not a slippery slope
18:57:31 <krisk> mjs: asking for vote to not having time element vs having time element
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18:58:15 <krisk> 1 vote to not have it...larger number of people (7) would like to have time element
18:58:48 <krisk> mjs: asking for data element vs not having data element
18:59:23 <krisk> mjs: it seems that it's clear (not full working group) favor having both elements <time> <data>
19:00:22 <krisk> hixie: most of these use case are irrelevant
19:00:34 <krisk> ..you don't need markup for this..
19:01:13 <krisk> hixie: all of this can be trivial found since they are ISO standards and are easily parsed
19:01:15 <karl> hixie: you don't need markup for publishing data, you need markup for consuming data
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19:01:37 <krisk> ..search engines do this today pretty well...except year and length
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19:02:16 <krisk> ..the ambiguity exists for other items...
19:02:33 <krisk> ..for example SF - all search engines know this is san fran
19:03:13 <krisk> tantek: we can use what people publish to determine what we need
19:03:46 <krisk> tantek: time is being used and the pattern is that others will
19:04:02 <krisk> hixie: they build it and it will come is not a good strategy
19:04:23 <krisk> tantek: I disagree it's worked well for Microdata
19:04:37 <tcelik> krisk s/microdata/microformats
19:04:59 <krisk> hixie: longdesc is a good example gone wrong
19:05:34 <krisk> tantek: why make a special case for year?  If lots of people are using this then we should promote this to an element
19:05:43 <MikeSmith> s/Microdata/microformats/
19:06:13 <krisk> tantek: If people are intrested in time, then I'd like to hear their specific needs
19:06:33 <krisk> kimberly: TV has a use for duration
19:07:15 <krisk> mjs: some of these particular specified date don't enable a date() object to be created
19:07:49 <krisk> ..we have a problem since an api exists to provide a date() object from this tag
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19:08:16 <krisk> tantek: It's a perfectly reasonable request to expect the api to do the right thing
19:08:46 <krisk> ..doesn't seem like a difficult problem and should be easy to reach consensus
19:09:20 <krisk> mjs: any other questions?
19:09:52 <krisk> alex: what about pre-gregoria and gregoria?
19:10:22 <krisk> tantek: I have not seen data to justify adding this support
19:10:31 <krisk> alex: I have seen this in history examples
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19:10:44 <anne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proleptic_Gregorian_calendar
19:10:45 <krisk> tantek: a workaround exists...
19:10:51 <anne> ^^ article on workaround
19:11:16 <krisk> tantek: it we have more data then we can add this support
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19:11:44 <krisk> tantek: if you see it we can evaluate it as we gather more data
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19:12:14 <krisk> mjs: any other comments or time in general?
19:12:38 <krisk> group agrees no more issues, meeting is over and we'll meet again after lunch at 1:30
19:12:48 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:12:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
19:12:49 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
19:14:17 <krisk> rrsagent, make log public
19:14:18 <karl> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011
19:14:19 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
19:14:24 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:14:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
19:14:26 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
19:14:37 <krisk> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:14:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html krisk
19:14:38 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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19:15:23 <tcelik> FYI re: non-Gregorian proposal/research http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#Calendar_scale
19:15:25 <pimpbot> Title: Time element - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
19:16:19 <karl> s/Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda#Thursday.2C_3_November_2011/Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011/
19:16:21 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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20:36:00 <tcelik> greetings
20:36:00 <ArtB> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
20:36:13 <tcelik> rrsagent tcelik is tantek
20:36:22 <tcelik> rrsagent, tcelik is tantek
20:36:22 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'tcelik is tantek', tcelik.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:36:42 <tcelik> tcelik has changed the topic to: Web & TV (tcelik)
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20:37:12 <anne> topic: Web & TV
20:37:16 <anne> scribe: tcelik
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20:38:31 <tcelik> W3C Media Pipeline TF Requirements
20:38:32 <tcelik> presentation
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20:38:41 <tcelik> November 1-4, 2011
20:38:46 <tcelik> Clarke: two task forces
20:38:56 <tcelik> media task force
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20:39:14 <tcelik> home networking task force
20:39:14 <tcelik> media *pipeline task force
20:39:23 <kaz> kaz has joined #html-wg
20:39:36 <tcelik> … scope of the MPTF is to support commercial grade video in browsers or anything that supports HTML
20:39:44 <tcelik> … set out to develop requirements in that area
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20:39:49 <tcelik> … then identified gaps
20:39:56 <tcelik> … good news is found very few gaps
20:40:11 <tcelik> … most use cases adequately supported in HTML or in current specification
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20:40:23 <tcelik> … we have some additional areas with ideas for addressing things, not yet consensus
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20:40:36 <tcelik> "R1. Combined main + description audio track"
20:40:44 <tcelik> R1 = requirement one
20:40:48 <adrianba> rrsagent, pointer
20:40:48 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-irc#T20-40-48
20:41:11 <tcelik> … each of these slides have use case, what doesn't work, bugs filed, sections in spec, suggested changes
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20:41:45 <tcelik> Clarke: first use-case 
20:41:55 <tcelik> … in US/Canada different from Europe - playing audio tracks
20:42:14 <tcelik> … US/Canada premixed
20:42:14 <tcelik> … other countries separate
20:42:18 <tcelik> … we need to identify premix
20:42:29 <tcelik> … right now HTML5 appears to only address non-prefix
20:42:36 <tcelik> … Suggestions:
20:42:42 <tcelik> … define new category values
20:42:45 <MikeSmith> bug 13357?
20:42:46 <jkiss_> jkiss_ has joined #html-wg
20:42:46 <tcelik> … main+description
20:42:46 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13357 b.lund, P2, NEW, 13<video>: Additional AudioTrack.kind categories are needed to identify tracks where audio descriptions are premixed with main dialogue.
20:42:51 <tcelik> … translation+description
20:43:12 <tcelik> Mark Vickers, Comcast (MV)
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20:43:19 <tcelik> MV: you could make the category a list
20:43:24 <tcelik> … such as if you had main video and assigned video
20:43:42 <tcelik> Paul Cotton (PC) for the record this bug is still marked as new
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20:43:58 <tcelik> … this = bug 13357
20:44:21 <tcelik> MV: we also reviewed this with the a11y P&F group on Tuesday
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20:44:35 <tcelik> … there was some discussion about that with some people that were more expert on this
20:44:50 <tcelik> Janina: we agree that this is information that needs to be avail to the consumer
20:44:56 <tcelik> … how we achieve it is matter of discussion
20:45:12 <tcelik> John Foliot (JF)
20:45:16 <tcelik> … the use case of supporting text descriptions is very real
20:45:23 <tcelik> … we would support additional kinds
20:45:46 <tcelik> Janina: you're going to want to know for historical stuff if it is premixed
20:46:02 <tcelik> … can't unmix it
20:46:30 <tcelik> Frank Olivier: do you think we need these 9 categories only, or should we leave it open ended
20:46:38 <tcelik> … so people can create their own categories
20:46:49 <tcelik> Clarke: we should ask the a11y group
20:47:13 <tcelik> JF: when we looked at the values originally, these slipped past us. In theory I support multiple / extensible kinds
20:47:28 <anne> what is wrong with kind=alternative + label=... ?
20:47:28 <tcelik> … what if we do if down the road we discover a new kind
20:47:37 <tcelik> MV: There's an example on the slides I wondered about.
20:47:41 <tcelik> … there's a type for main video
20:47:45 <tcelik> … and signed video
20:47:51 <tcelik> … could be delivered separately or together as well.
20:47:57 <MikeSmith> q?
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20:48:14 <tcelik> Russell: I was going to suggest ...
20:48:24 <tcelik> Anne: what about using just "alternate/alternative" and a label?
20:48:40 <tcelik> Janina: you need to distinguish two situations
20:48:43 <dbaron> participants in Web and TV IG: https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=46300
20:48:48 <tcelik> … a) audio+video premixed, can't undo that
20:48:55 <dbaron> Participants in HTML WG: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
20:48:56 <pimpbot> Title: Participants in the HTML Working Group - DBWG, the Working Groups Database (at www.w3.org)
20:49:03 <tcelik> … b) European practice, main audio, and then describe-audio in separate channel
20:49:26 <tcelik> … as long as it is clear to user if it is premixed or not
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20:49:39 <tcelik> Anne: premix just seems like just an alternate
20:49:51 <tcelik> Maciej: you still need the device that's doing the playback to know the nature of the atlernative
20:50:12 <Kai> help
20:50:25 <tcelik> … if I said I want audio descriptions for everything, then when the format is in a premix format, UA needs to detect that so that it doesn't mix them up
20:50:26 <Kai> s/help//
20:50:45 <tcelik> … there might be multiple combined resources in the same track, should be able to express that
20:51:00 <tcelik> JF: Anne, we don't have a labeling mechanism. We only have kind.
20:51:16 <Hixie> when people say @kind, what are they referring to?
20:51:28 <anne> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-TrackList-getKind-categories
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20:51:29 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)
20:51:35 <tcelik> Anne: the preselection mechanism makes sense.
20:51:35 <tcelik> Mark Watson (MW) Netflix
20:51:36 <tcelik> … the labels are not useful because you can't automatically intepret them, i18n etc.
20:51:45 <MikeSmith> bug 12544?
20:51:46 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544 jfoliot, P3, NEW, 13<video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires track kind for in-band tracks
20:51:51 <tcelik> … captions and subtitles
20:52:02 <tcelik> … not available in other form, want to be able to signal
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20:52:24 <Hixie> anne: well that's confusing. That's an IDL attribute, not a content attribute.
20:52:24 <tcelik> … when those are available
20:52:24 <tcelik> Janina: Anne, you need to give us 2 examples
20:52:32 <tcelik> … how is it marked when the described audio is burned in, and separate track
20:52:42 <tcelik> … one example is not enough
20:52:49 <tcelik> … need to have two to understand how it works
20:52:57 <tcelik> Anne: I was already convinced earlier by Maciej
20:53:00 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13986] Update vCard vocabulary to RFC6350 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0248.html>
20:53:17 <tcelik> Janina: this is the uncontroversial one
20:53:33 <tcelik> PC: as chair, question I ask is, the bug does not include a complete change proposal
20:53:47 <tcelik> … is there anybody in the room that are going to carry this forward and write a change proposal
20:54:01 <tcelik> … I want to know how this is going to work
20:54:02 <anne> Hixie: hmm yeah
20:54:16 <tcelik> … editor handles the bug?
20:54:43 <tcelik> JF: This is obviously supporting an a11y requirement, we could write a change proposal. just requesting 2 values at this time.
20:54:55 <tcelik> JF: we could explore extensibility later
20:55:00 <tcelik> Sam Ruby: Editor processes it by default
20:55:11 <tcelik> PC: Let's follow process then, have the editor process it
20:55:12 <anne> Hixie: I guess http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-track-kind is the one
20:55:14 <MikeSmith> Hixie, are there any new UA conformance requirements needed for this? any browser implementation needed?
20:55:14 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)
20:55:27 <tcelik> … I encourage those who have specific proposal to add it to the bug
20:55:35 <anne> Hixie: but that doesn't make sense
20:55:39 <tcelik> Bob from Cable Labs: what's being proposed is two new kind categories
20:55:42 <tcelik> … main+description
20:55:48 <tcelik> … translation+description
20:55:51 <tcelik> … do we need more?
20:55:57 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:55:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:55:58 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
20:56:02 <tcelik> JF: there may be in the future. at this point these 2 have emerged. a year from now?
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20:56:16 <tcelik> … 2 ways to approach. 1. let's propose these for the spec now, 2. is there an extensibility issue?
20:56:22 <tcelik> Bob: Let's move forward with these two kinds
20:56:31 <tcelik> … and parallel with a broader solution
20:56:32 <anne> Hixie: I guess the streams would expose those kind of values
20:56:41 <tcelik> JF: if you want to action the a11y tf go ahead
20:56:54 <tcelik> Giuseppe from Opera
20:57:14 <tcelik> … kind can be main+description, plus something else
20:57:21 <tcelik> JF: that goes back to question of extensible
20:57:33 <tcelik> … sounds like we have extensibility issue here on the table
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20:57:39 <tcelik> … it's a worth while discussion
20:58:03 <tcelik> Giuseppe: we need specific requests because we are not familiar
20:58:12 <tcelik> … with the process in this group
20:58:19 <tcelik> PC: because bugs are first processed by the editor
20:58:28 <tcelik> PC: 1. does the bug reflect the discussion here?
20:58:35 <tcelik> … if it doesn't, add that info to the bug
20:58:44 <tcelik> … because *that* is what will be taken into consideration
20:59:11 <tcelik> Hixie: are we talking about the 'kind' attribute on … ?
20:59:16 <tcelik> JF: The object?
20:59:24 <tcelik> Hixie: these are very different with different behaviors
20:59:29 <tcelik> Anne: it's about the object
20:59:33 <tcelik> Hixie: happy to add to the object
20:59:43 <tcelik> … only limitation is the formats the UA supports
20:59:50 <tcelik> … so far I added everything Ogg supports
20:59:57 <tcelik> … happy to add what H264 supports
21:00:12 <tcelik> … need documentation on that though first
21:00:15 <tcelik> … please add a link to the relevant spec in the bug and I'll add it.
21:00:30 <tcelik> MW: that's a backwards way of thinking about it
21:00:38 <tcelik> … notion of those not have to do with media containers
21:00:45 <tcelik> … backwards to wait for the media container people
21:00:52 <tcelik> … and then copy/paste those into the HTML
21:00:58 <tcelik> … we don't want to go overboard
21:01:14 <tcelik> … where there examples that are clearly in use, even not on web
21:01:25 <tcelik> … we should add it for the web.
21:01:38 <tcelik> Janina: are you Ian waiting for a user agent on the web to support it.
21:01:54 <tcelik> … we know what we want because we have 30 years of history on this in broadcast and broader media distribution
21:02:01 <tcelik> … we can be fairly confident there aren't going to be different things
21:02:21 <tcelik> … question is how to mark when they've been combined into a single track, and how to mark when they're separate tracks
21:02:36 <tcelik> Clarke: it's clear we need to have bug processed by the editor, and we all add any comments to the bug
21:02:40 <tcelik> … next issue
21:02:50 <tcelik> " R3. Handling of In-band Tracks"
21:02:54 <MikeSmith> bug 13358?
21:02:56 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13358 b.lund, P2, NEW, 13<video> also fire a 'change' event at VideoTrackList, AudioTrackList, and TextTrackList objects when their list of tracks changes
21:03:02 <MikeSmith> bug 13359?
21:03:03 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13359 b.lund, P2, NEW, 13A way is needed to identify the type of data in a track element
21:03:15 <MikeSmith> bug 14492?
21:03:16 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14492 jan.lindquist, P2, NEW, 13<video> change event when tracks are removed
21:03:44 <tcelik> … use case: Playing in-band multiplexed media streams (e.g. broadcast tv, live events and recorded movies) with track elements that come and go over time (e.g. secondary audio, subtitles, in different languages, application signaling and content ratings>)
21:04:00 <tcelik> … what doesn't work: application doesn't know type of data tracks or when tracks end.
21:04:13 <tcelik> … submitted bugs: [x] LC1 Bug 13358 
21:04:30 <tcelik> …. [ ] LC1 Bug 13359
21:04:33 <tcelik> … [ ] Bug 14492
21:04:49 <tcelik> … sections: 4.8.10.12.2 sourcing in-band text tracks
21:04:58 <tcelik> … suggested changes:
21:05:12 <tcelik> … * mapping of in-band tracks nedds to be done in a standard way 
21:05:12 <tcelik> ...
21:05:40 <tcelik> FO: It would be good to do enumeration of all the tracks in the file and what their start/end times are
21:05:50 <tcelik> Hixie: the problem is that you don't know if/when they're going to start or end if ever
21:06:03 <JF> s/nedds to be done/needs to be done
21:06:03 <tcelik> FO: but if it is not a live stream...
21:06:12 <tcelik> Clarke: but it is (a live stream)
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21:06:18 <tcelik> Hixie: there appear to be two issues here
21:06:34 <tcelik> Hixie: 1. multiple inband tracks video and audio tracks that come and go
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21:06:48 <tcelik> … I'm trying to better understand why are there so many tracks?
21:07:12 <tcelik> Clarke: multiple secondary audio tracks, multilingual, application signalling
21:07:36 <tcelik> … one way of dealing for example, something similar to a current video channel, you choose to encode it as a continuous stream, every time you get an ad you get new tracks
21:07:59 <tcelik> Hixie: if you go from tv to ad to tv, presumably you have one video, one audio stream, one alternate for the other
21:08:14 <tcelik> Bob: one example is...
21:08:27 <tcelik> … or go from one program to another, and the translation tracks change
21:08:30 <tcelik> … text tracks that come and go
21:08:39 <tcelik> … timed text tracks are useful for interactive TV signaling
21:08:52 <tcelik> … in general over a long period like hours, you would expect to see audio tracks show up and go away
21:09:01 <tcelik> Hixie: for metadata text tracks that makes more sense
21:09:12 <tcelik> Eric from Apple
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21:09:31 <tcelik> … when you change format, or change characteristics of the audio, typically done with different tracks. e.g. main program to ad
21:09:41 <tcelik> … diff size or scaled, compressed with different format
21:09:47 <tcelik> Hixie: each ad could be in a new track?
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21:09:51 <tcelik> Eric: yeah
21:09:56 <tcelik> Hixie: makes sense. I'll fix that.
21:10:12 <tcelik> Hixie. 2. the other one was the text track. don't fully understand. you want the text tracks to fully say what they are?
21:11:13 <tcelik> Bob: TV applications, e.g. interactive TV app, ad insertion opportunity. if those are inband tracks, no way to identify them as metadata tracks. no way to identify to scripts that one contains one format and another contains another format.
21:11:13 <tcelik> … one way would be identifying them with a mimetype
21:11:17 <tcelik> … or other ways
21:11:23 <tcelik> … idea, expose program description
21:11:34 <tcelik> … javascript would have enough to look at the tracks and figure out which are which 
21:11:38 <tcelik> Hixie: can you reuse label?
21:11:43 <tcelik> Bob: that's non-standard
21:11:48 <tcelik> Hixie: we could make it
21:11:51 <tcelik> Bob: that would be the kind
21:12:16 <tcelik> Hixie: my concern is that this usecase seems specific to one domain, very concerned about adding a feature just for this one domain
21:12:23 <tcelik> Bob: not sure if domain specific
21:12:40 <tcelik> Hixie: if you have a normal web page, it has some out of band text tracks that are kind equals metadata
21:12:45 <tcelik> … you're doing it from script
21:12:48 <tcelik> … so you don't need it 
21:12:53 <tcelik> Bob: this is an inband track problem
21:12:58 <tcelik> Bob: they're not limited to...
21:13:13 <tcelik> Hixie: that track doesn't have label right?
21:13:13 <tcelik> Bob: depends on media format
21:13:28 <tcelik> … Ogg or Webm has an attribute where you can specify a human readable string for the channel which would logically go into the label
21:13:34 <tcelik> … some tracks have labels, some done
21:13:50 <tcelik> Hixie: I'll have to look at that more closely. That doesn't help me understand the problem.
21:14:01 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:14:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
21:14:02 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
21:14:03 <tcelik> PC: Hixie, any other questions?
21:14:15 <tcelik> Hixie: two issue I asked about are enough
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21:14:30 <tcelik> MV: it would be useful to thru the mapping spec
21:14:34 <tcelik> Hixie: A link to that would be very useful in the bug
21:14:42 <tcelik> MV: this is the mapping spec
21:14:53 <tcelik> "Mapping from MPEG-2 Transport to HTML5"
21:14:56 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Attempt to update to the latest vCard spec (whatwg r6816) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0018.html>
21:15:12 <tcelik> Hixie: I don't think I've seen that.
21:15:16 <tcelik> Bob: it's not on a wiki
21:15:20 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
21:15:28 <tcelik> PC: can we post it now
21:15:33 <tcelik> Hixie: you can attach it to the bug
21:15:37 <tcelik> … that would be great
21:15:57 <Mohammed> Mohammed has joined #html-wg
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21:16:13 <tcelik> Clarke: are there any opinions about whether this mapping specification you want to refer to separately or W3C would want to maintain?
21:16:13 <tcelik> Adrian of Microsoft: short answer yes
21:16:16 <YW> YW has joined #html-wg
21:16:17 <tcelik> … I suggest sending it to the list
21:16:23 <tcelik> … maybe posting it somewhere and sending a pointer
21:16:28 <tcelik> … have people on the mailing list discuss it
21:16:37 <tcelik> Clarke: ok let's move to the next one
21:16:48 <jmr> jmr has joined #html-wg
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21:16:52 <tcelik> "R7. Additional Media Paramters"
21:16:59 <tcelik> … this is the more controversial one potentially
21:17:11 <MikeSmith> issue-179
21:17:12 <tcelik> … hopefully less controversial with how we're approaching it
21:17:23 <MikeSmith> issue-179?
21:17:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-179 -- {audio,video} require param child (or equivalent) -- open
21:17:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/179
21:17:24 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-179: {audio,video} require param child (or equivalent) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
21:17:36 <tcelik> … Use case: Playing adaptive rate video via video element.
21:17:37 <MikeSmith> bug 13333?
21:17:38 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13333 glenn, P2, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13audio, video (and source) elements require param children or equivalent
21:17:52 <tcelik> … Currently deployed object element adaptive rate video players allow application control of adaptive play-out.
21:17:58 <MikeSmith> bug 13625?
21:17:59 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625 b.lund, P2, NEW, 13There is no way to pass audio and video content metadata to the user agent that is required in some cases for playback.
21:18:13 <tcelik> … Common parameters or other media should also be considered.
21:18:16 <tcelik> … what doesn't work: HTML5 spec has no API to control adaptive video
21:18:35 <tcelik> Clarke: one idea suggested in #htmlav club meeting yesterday was need to come up with specific parameters to be passed
21:18:54 <tcelik> … we don't think there is a need for new functionality to HTML, but perhaps additional errors for more specificity, or other events
21:18:55 <Alan> Alan has joined #html-wg
21:19:00 <tcelik> … for communication to media elements
21:19:12 <tcelik> MV: on this and the next few bugs, issue 179 is mentioned
21:19:17 <tcelik> … 179 proposed a general parm mechanism
21:19:25 <tcelik> … discussion said to propose specific parameters
21:19:34 <tcelik> … so next few are proposing specific parameters
21:19:42 <tcelik> … but no one is against a generic param mechanism
21:19:53 <tcelik> Anne: could you clarify what you mean by passing data to the media elements.
21:19:54 <tcelik> ?
21:20:13 <tcelik> … adaptive streaming sounds more like a protocol issue more than what media element should handle
21:20:22 <tcelik> Clarke: there are certain parameters that would be useful to media general problems
21:20:47 <tcelik> … general idea of passing params is helpful e.g. provide an experience where people watching get best experience, to know the bandwidth
21:20:58 <tcelik> Anne: where do you pass params to, who gets them, uses them
21:21:00 <tcelik> ?
21:21:45 <tcelik> ...
21:21:57 <tcelik> Anne: I've heard two proposals so far
21:22:02 <tcelik> … 1 is to let protocol solve it
21:22:13 <tcelik> … UA implements protocol, server does too, they negotiate quality/bitrate
21:22:42 <tcelik> … 2 is where page has open with server, and gets passed bytes over that connection where they implement the protocol at the application level and pass blobs to the video element that would allow this sort of thing
21:22:55 <tcelik> … at this stage it is inactionable
21:22:59 <tcelik> … need more concrete proposal
21:23:05 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13359] A way is needed to identify the type of data in a track element <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0253.html> 4** [Bug 14690] New: <a> should be allowed as a child of <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use case is file downlads <dl><a href="filename1.pdf"><dt>Filename</dt><dd>description of file</dd><dd>filetype</dd></a>etc...</dl>. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html
21:23:29 <tcelik> Adrian: What Mark said was, the idea of that request everybody now understands is a good one. There's some work to do to figure out that concrete suggestion.
21:23:37 <tcelik> … should happen somewhere, think it should happen in HTML Working Group
21:23:52 <tcelik> PC: current status of issue 179 that asks for the generic PARAM parameter
21:24:03 <tcelik> … we have a counter change proposal to not do that
21:24:14 <tcelik> PC: we haven't had the original change proposal withdrawn
21:24:30 <tcelik> … still time for counter proposals
21:24:34 <tcelik> PC: I want to know what are we going to know with 179.
21:24:46 <tcelik> Adrian: I'll withdraw my overgeneralization of everybody.
21:24:52 <tcelik> … maybe almost everybody agrees now
21:25:13 <tcelik> … I suspect that at end of issue 179 there will be consensus for not making a change
21:25:19 <tcelik> … because we have a better understanding how to move forward.
21:25:37 <tcelik> MV: re 179, I spoke with Glenn Adams. he is still interested in pursuing that. he is not able to be here.
21:25:47 <tcelik> MV: the interest group does not have unified support for that bug
21:25:57 <tcelik> … we are coming in with Sylvia alternative proposal
21:26:02 <tcelik> … to discuss specific parameters
21:26:29 <tcelik> … the whatwg link in this slide goes to a survey/analysis of adaptive parameters across a wide variety of systems
21:26:38 <tcelik> PC: I believe we have 2 change proposals.
21:26:43 <tcelik> … we haven't yet called for counters.
21:26:49 <tcelik> … normally that runs 30 days
21:26:53 <tcelik> … ended on Oct 28
21:27:00 <pimpbot> Title: Error (at wiki.whatwg.org)
21:27:13 <tcelik> … next automatic step would be to evaluate whether we call for counter proposals
21:27:21 <tcelik> … would be good to hear from as many WG members where they stand on this.
21:27:32 <tcelik> (silence)
21:27:59 <tcelik> Hixie: When Henry rejected the bug, he rejected the generic concept
21:28:11 <tcelik> … specific issues would be considered.
21:28:19 <mark> mark has joined #html-wg
21:28:27 <tcelik> PC: new related bugs would be treated as subtypes of this bug and treated as last call
21:28:54 <tcelik> … e.g. we have cases where we as we refine the question in a bug, the chairs are willing to enter into a consideration that subtype bugs are then treated as ontime last call bugs.
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21:29:13 <tcelik> … reach out to us and ask if you have any questions about that and have a dialog with us.
21:29:24 <tcelik> Clarke: R7 was about passing params
21:29:29 <tcelik> … R8 is about getting feedback
21:29:39 <tcelik> … R10 and R11 we consider parallel issues
21:29:49 <tcelik> … specifically related to content protection
21:30:14 <tcelik> … "R111. Content Protection Feedback and Errors"
21:30:31 <tcelik> … we the people who know the specific events, errors, params need to be passed and come to a consensus of a subset of these that we would propose as changes.
21:30:52 <tcelik> MW: currently the errors on the media element are rather limited
21:30:58 <tcelik> … I'd like to learn more about the rational for that
21:31:12 <tcelik> … reason for more error codes where we have customer service reps
21:31:12 <tcelik> … trying to fix things
21:31:22 <tcelik> …. we want web page be able to provide more specific errors
21:31:25 <tcelik> … to send back
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21:31:42 <tcelik> Hixie: reason limited is baby steps. reason object instead of number is to be able to add things later
21:31:55 <tcelik> … should be slow to add things because they we get too far ahead of the implementations
21:31:59 <arnpro> what do you think about Dart? (google's new)
21:32:11 <tcelik> … errors have some CORS aspects
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21:32:28 <tcelik> ?? need 10
21:32:36 <tcelik> Hixie: that's a lot, please prioritize
21:32:55 <tcelik> Clarke: if there is advice for how to get this into HTML quickly that would be great.
21:33:00 <tcelik> Clarke on R7
21:33:16 <tcelik> … exposing information on available bit rates, maybe set maximum
21:33:17 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:33:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
21:33:18 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
21:33:23 <tcelik> … exposing and setting parameters for fragment selection
21:33:49 <tcelik> … playlists want to prefetch segments to play things seamlessly
21:33:52 <tcelik> … in R8
21:33:55 <tcelik> … common media error
21:33:59 <tcelik> … additional events/info
21:34:13 <tcelik> … DNS failure, TCP failure, TLS failure
21:34:13 <tcelik> … stats such as packet drop rate
21:34:18 <tcelik> … changes in the stream of events
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21:34:33 <tcelik> MV: this is where the referenced WHatWG wiki is good to look at
21:34:40 <tcelik> Clarke: R150
21:34:42 <tcelik> R10
21:34:50 <tcelik> … getting DRM system information
21:34:56 <tcelik> … exchange DRM related messages
21:35:15 <tcelik> …  ref: OIPF DAE specification
21:35:25 <tcelik> … R11. Content Protection Feedback and Errors
21:36:22 <tcelik> Tantek: are the slides in the respective bugs?
21:36:26 <tcelik> Clarke no but they could be
21:36:38 <tcelik> ACTION Clarke add contents from the slides of the presentation to each specific bug
21:36:38 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Clarke
21:37:24 <tcelik> MW: Different conclusions though, might be components exposed through the web interface, pass through for parameters is different than webarch that hides platform/device specific things
21:37:28 <tcelik> … re: content protection
21:37:34 <tcelik> … some devices have content protection, some dont'
21:38:22 <tcelik> … my question to the group is: is it acceptable to introduce this capability to the web platform (pass thru), or some other strategy?
21:38:31 <tcelik> Anne: the last time this was discussed on WHATWG list
21:38:49 <tcelik> … least controversial suggestion was API feed bits into the video stream
21:39:01 <tcelik> … DRM would be implemented at the application level
21:39:13 <tcelik> MW: you can't implement the DRM in the JS
21:39:19 <tcelik> … needs to be implemented in trusted execution environment
21:39:44 <karl> there is nothing secure in life. useless pun.
21:39:50 <tcelik> MW: objective of DRM is not to make it impossible but difficult, for some well defined values of difficult
21:40:13 <tcelik> … need these capabilities in the trusted computing layers
21:40:18 <tcelik> … below the video element
21:40:31 <tcelik> Anne: we are already at the place where you have H264 decoding in JS
21:40:52 <tcelik> … I was just stating the last thing that was discussed on this topic that had some traction beyond we don't want to go there.
21:41:14 <tcelik> John Simmons of Microsoft: Echoing what Mark said. 
21:41:14 <tcelik> … key takeaway
21:41:21 <tcelik> … DRM systems are going to be used on video delivered to devices
21:41:28 <tcelik> … people who develop DRM understand those constraints
21:41:33 <tcelik> … e.g. can't implement in JS
21:41:44 <tcelik> … key question is whether HTML will be able to accomodate DRM protected content
21:41:53 <tcelik> … or continue like silos today
21:42:12 <tcelik> … which prevent large scale growth of internet television that we'd like to see
21:42:13 <tcelik> MV: related to 179
21:42:19 <tcelik> … there are these two proposals
21:42:24 <tcelik> … 1. for parm
21:42:28 <tcelik> … 2. not use it
21:42:41 <tcelik> … data- and x- are supposed to be prohibited from use
21:42:52 <tcelik> … but no change proposal says use those
21:42:56 <tcelik> … didn't make sense
21:43:13 <tcelik> … details are in the issue 179 two alternate proposals
21:43:18 <tcelik> … can anyone comment?
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21:43:29 <tcelik> PC: project change proposal?
21:44:02 <tcelik> PC: original change proposal
21:44:13 <tcelik> MV: just above the blue box
21:44:23 <tcelik> … furthermore the data-* mechanism etc.
21:44:30 <tcelik> … can't be used
21:44:37 <tcelik> … but then in Sylvia's counter proposals says to use them.
21:44:42 <tcelik> … does the quoted text need clarification
21:44:47 <tcelik> … or is it just a misunderstanding?
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21:45:11 <tcelik> Hixie: the data-* attributes are intended to only be used by scripts in the page, not by the user agent
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21:45:23 <tcelik> … if you have something the user agents would use, then either we would add it to the language
21:45:34 <tcelik> … or if it was experimental we would use x-* syntax
21:45:44 <tcelik> … e.g. webkit has x-webkit-*
21:46:13 <tcelik> Adrien: the misunderstanding was how x- attribute might be used on the way to standardization
21:46:15 <tcelik> … e.g. like it's done with vendor prefixing in CSS.
21:46:33 <tcelik> … in order that those experimental implementations don't drive actual content, we use a vendor prefix
21:46:40 <tcelik> … the proposed standard doesn't have a vendor prefix
21:46:58 <tcelik> … the vendor prefixes are a temporary measure to experiment while standard is being agreed.
21:47:03 <tcelik> MV: concrete case is UPnP
21:47:12 <tcelik> … available spec
21:47:12 <tcelik> … but no support for it
21:47:23 <tcelik> … slightly different model UPnP video vs. regulary HTML video access
21:47:42 <tcelik> … a separate group UPnP could publish use x-upnp-* params, and encourage others to
21:47:57 <tcelik> Hixie: if they're writing an actual standard they wouldn't use x-
21:48:15 <tcelik> … just upnp-
21:48:15 <tcelik> MV: so ok for them to just use upnp- ?
21:48:23 <tcelik> Hixie: I wouldn't recommend it, would prefer to come to the group
21:48:33 <tcelik> MV: I agree primary idea is bring these in
21:48:56 <tcelik> bug 13625 (13635?) also tracks separate attribute
21:48:57 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625 b.lund, P2, NEW, 13There is no way to pass audio and video content metadata to the user agent that is required in some cases for playback.
21:49:12 <tcelik> PC: I want to point people to the conformance clause in HTML5
21:49:32 <tcelik> PC: It says you can conform by pointing to HTML5 and other set of additional specifications
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21:49:46 <tcelik> … a vertical industry could say you conform to HTML5 and this other specification
21:50:02 <tcelik> … too many people believe you want to force everything into the HTML5 spec.
21:50:20 <tcelik> … I want to support Ian's view that if something is generic we want that discussion and get that in
21:50:23 <tcelik> … or at least know about it
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21:50:36 <tcelik> … so that we can detect when something becomes emergently generic
21:50:41 <tcelik> Hixie: I agree
21:50:54 <tcelik> … the conformance section really it says what's been true of any spec
21:51:34 <tcelik> MW: I wouldn't encourage people to write extensions. we have an interest in strongly discouraging separate extension. we don't want fragmentation.
21:51:48 <tcelik> … if you look at OIPF and HDTV you have 100s of 1000s of pages of stuff
21:52:02 <tcelik> … a uniform platform, that should be our goal
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21:52:27 <tcelik> Hixie: in practice as people do start writing specs that start extending HTML in that way, it probably means we failed, but in reality it might happen anyway
21:52:40 <tcelik> PC: time check
21:52:46 <Tom> Tom has joined #html-wg
21:52:50 <tcelik> … have gone through all the material
21:52:55 <tcelik> … several suggestions made
21:53:14 <tcelik> … including Tantek's that all this slide material be added to the associated bugs
21:53:15 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13357] <video>: Additional AudioTrack.kind categories are needed to identify tracks where audio descriptions are premixed with main dialogue. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0262.html> 4** [Bug 13239] Add support for in-page dialogs <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0261.html> 4** [Bug 12409] WF3: Automatic capitalization in input fields <11http://lists.w3.org/Archi
21:53:17 <tcelik> … have we covered everything that the interest group wanted to cover?
21:53:41 <tcelik> … process discussion can be taken offline over coffee
21:53:51 <tcelik> … chairs are open to taking that stuff orally or over email
21:53:55 <tcelik> MV: two things
21:54:11 <tcelik> … 1. one more residue, that we're not bringing. as FYI: need for a service discovery API
21:54:23 <tcelik> … to allow discover of things thru like zeroconf and UPnP 
21:54:30 <tcelik> … being discussed at DAP group
21:54:37 <tcelik> … we didn't bring it to this group because it is a whole new thingl
21:54:44 <tcelik> … 2. we studied dozens and dozens of use-cases
21:54:51 <tcelik> … this is the residue that came out
21:55:13 <tcelik> … testament to the spec, many applications worked just fine with the spec
21:55:13 <tcelik> …. other than these few areas
21:55:13 <tcelik> … it's all right on track
21:55:18 <tcelik> … a lot of verification 
21:55:29 <tcelik> … there was a huge amount of positive work that we're not showing you because it all worked.
21:55:33 <tcelik> PC: any last comments?
21:55:46 <tcelik> … thanks to the chairs of the IG for approaching the chairs of the HTML WG so early
21:55:53 <tcelik> … gave us a chance to coordinate chairs
21:56:12 <tcelik> … WG meeting is now recessed until 15:30-0700
21:56:14 <tcelik> <br type=coffee/>
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21:56:25 <anne> wait
21:56:25 <tcelik> RRSAgent, minutes
21:56:25 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'minutes', tcelik.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:56:29 <anne> is the value "coffee/"
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21:56:36 <anne> or "coffee"
21:56:40 <tcelik> anne - ask the parser ;)
21:57:29 <tcelik> RRSAgent, create minutes
21:57:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html tcelik
21:57:33 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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22:23:21 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13359] A way is needed to identify the type of data in a track element <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0264.html> 4** [Bug 13550] type table in 4.10.7 should indicate control type changes based on list attribute <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0263.html> 4** [Bug 14691] <a> should be allowed as a child of <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use cas
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22:34:31 <hober> ScribeNick: hober
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22:35:49 <hober> rubys: this is the last session of the day
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22:36:12 <hober> Topic: HTML Decision Policy report
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22:37:02 <hober> paulc: these slides are from the plenary day session
22:37:28 <hober> paulc: I'll go through the slides and replay some of the Q&A that we had yesterday and this morning in the AC meeting
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22:38:13 <hober> ... we have bugs & issues; editor responsible for bugs, escalation procedure for others that produces issues
22:38:21 <hober> ... chairs find consensus through the path described in the decision policy
22:38:31 <hober> ... v2 of the policy endorsed by the wg this summer
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22:38:57 <hober> ... chairs look at the reactions that change proposals get
22:39:22 <hober> ... [description of Enhanced Change Control]
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22:39:53 <hober> ... e.g. the <time> element discussion earlier, the chairs have requested a revert; issue will be turned into multiple proposed changes
22:40:28 <hober> ... [paul displays & describes diagram of the decision process algorithm]
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22:43:22 <hober> ... feedback from ac meeting: decision policy isn't approachable for new people
22:43:35 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #html-wg
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22:43:50 <hober> ... chairs have informally discussed, working up a simple faq would help
22:43:57 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:43:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ1
22:43:58 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
22:44:15 <hober> ... the process is detailed because the chairs don't want there to be any confusion
22:44:55 <hober> ... issues can sometimes be reopened
22:45:33 <hober> ... when writing up a decision the chairs describe the sorts of triggers that could get the issue reopened
22:46:26 <hober> ... interested in new information that wasn't part of the original discussion
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22:46:44 <hober> ... Formal Objections are the escape valve of the w3c process
22:47:21 <hober> ... we have a webpage that lists our formal objections thus far
22:47:48 <hober> ... e.g. the polyglot document claims to be normative, there is an FO on this
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22:48:42 <hober> ... received a comment that, given the importance of the decision policy, changing it is akin to rechartering
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22:48:54 <hober> ... there is a bugilla component on the policy; we welcome bugs
22:49:12 <hober> ... maciej processed as many bugs as possible between v1 and v2 of the policy
22:49:34 <hober> ... decision policy isn't an edict from the chairs; we welcome feedback on it
22:49:59 <hober> ... another comment: some find the wg to be a hostile place, and that the way editors process bugs is unusual
22:50:36 <hober> ... the chairs work very hard to make this a level playing field in which people feel that they can present arguments
22:50:47 <hober> ... one person complained that they couldn't unsubscribe from the mailing list
22:51:36 <hober> ... dsinger & others asked how is someone supposed to be able to watch all of the many changes
22:52:16 <hober> ... paul stepped through the <time> element changes, showing the granularity of spec change; the editors are really good about matching changes to specific bugs
22:52:47 <hober> ... somewhat difficult to see what changed in the w3c document because the svn commits are on the whatwg side
22:53:31 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13570] why does input type=color support autocomplete? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0271.html> 4** [Bug 13550] type table in 4.10.7 should indicate control type changes based on list attribute <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0270.html> 4** [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
22:53:34 <hober> paulc: not many contentious changes slip through
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22:53:46 <hober> ... [discusses <time> element as an example]
22:54:44 <hober> ... had questions over coffee about the relationship with the whatwg, about the wg size, etc
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22:55:25 <hober> Topic: test suite status report
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22:55:55 <hober> The slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/
22:55:56 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Decision Policy (at www.w3.org)
22:56:18 <hober> krisk: lots of growth over last year in terms of submitted tests
22:56:28 <hober> krisk: we're pretty far ahead relative to other groups
22:56:57 <hober> ... [runs through slide describing the various sorts of tests in the suite already]
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22:57:11 <paulc> Decision Policy slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/#%281%29
22:57:12 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Decision Policy (at www.w3.org)
22:57:56 <hober> ... over 106K submitted tests
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22:58:38 <hober> ... participation in tf is up since last tpac
22:59:02 <hober> ... public-html-testsuite@w3.org is the list; much less traffic than the main list
22:59:27 <hober> ... please send jgraham feedback on the test harness
22:59:53 <hober> ... [thanks to contributors]
23:00:02 <hober> ... tf meets biweekly on irc
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23:01:19 <hober> Topic: Change Proposal status
23:02:49 <hober> stevef: there are a number of issues that are waiting for the chairs to evaluate the CPs
23:02:55 <hober> ... when will the evaulations occur?
23:03:09 <hober> janina: at least one issue from pf
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23:03:56 <anne> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html
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23:03:58 <hober> paulc: [describes how issue status page is organized]
23:03:58 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Status (at intertwingly.net)
23:04:12 <anne> ^^ displayed on screen
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23:06:13 <hober> rubys: we have reviewed one of the CPs of ISSUE-30, there are two others, one is being reviewed
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23:06:13 <mav> mav has left #html-wg
23:06:36 <hober> paulc: chairs started to give themselves action items for this review in the last 3 or 4 weeks
23:06:46 <hober> ... all 3 of the chairs have been very busy
23:06:59 <hober> ... we have to start to move to make the deadline dates in our timeline
23:07:34 <hober> rubys: we're prioritizing ISSUE-30
23:07:57 <hober> paulc: we've moved into a mode of reviewing CPs so that the resultant surveys will be better
23:08:39 <hober> rubys: e.g. the issue-30 cp we reviewed is much improved after incorporating feedback
23:08:49 <hober> janina: pf wants to highlight issue-133
23:09:02 <hober> stevef: there should only be one CP for issue-133
23:09:33 <hober> paulc: there are two
23:09:38 <hober> stevef: one was withdrawn
23:09:49 <hober> rubys: we'll issue a call for consensus
23:10:18 <mav_> mav_ has joined #html-wg
23:10:21 <tantek> <aside> Hixie, re: search engines know SF is San Francisco, but they don't however know MV is Mountain View </aside>
23:10:27 <hober> paulc: we could issue the CfC tonight
23:10:46 <hober> ... & maybe take it off of the discussion list tomorrow
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23:11:56 <hober> stevef: is there an overall timeline for these issues?
23:12:12 <hober> paulc: no, but we want to get through them as fast as we can
23:12:29 <hober> ... ~250 open bugs to be processed by 12/31
23:12:45 <hober> ... [overview of early 2012 schedule]
23:13:29 <hober> ... chairs are working to clear the backlog before the end of the year
23:13:46 <hober> Topic: Schedule status (AC report)
23:14:51 <hober> adrianb: there were 2 bugs opened, one against microdata and one against rdfa
23:15:03 <hober> ... based on TAG feedback that resulted in the html data tf being formed
23:15:34 <hober> ... is there an expectation that that tf will create feedback for the wg
23:15:41 <hober> ... if so, when will that happen
23:15:50 <adrianba> TF -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf
23:15:51 <pimpbot> Title: Html-data-tf - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)
23:16:11 <adrianba> bug 13100?
23:16:12 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13100 mike+html-wg-mailbot, P1, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13TAG issue on HTML+RDFa and Microdata last call drafts
23:16:14 <adrianba> bug 13101?
23:16:15 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13101 mike, P1, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, 13TAG issue on HTML+RDFa and Microdata last call drafts
23:16:24 <hober> paulc: [checks tag agenda for status of that tf]
23:16:42 <hober> rubys: we will hold that feedback to the same schedule as other feedback
23:17:13 <hober> paulc: the editors are required by our schedule to resolve all bugs by 12/31
23:17:44 <tcelik> why are there two bugs for this?
23:17:51 <hober> ... the bugs could just be closed if the tf report doesn't come in on time
23:17:54 <hober> tcelik: one per component
23:18:11 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
23:18:21 <hober> ... the bugs could be turned into issues at any time between now and 1/14
23:18:35 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #html-wg
23:18:44 <hober> s/adrianb/adrianba/
23:19:13 <hober> rubys: we will remind the tag of the schedule
23:19:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:19:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
23:19:16 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
23:19:24 <hober> ACTION: paulc to contact the TAG [noah, jeni] to find out the status of the html data tf
23:19:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-205 - Contact the TAG [noah, jeni] to find out the status of the html data tf [on Paul Cotton - due 2011-11-10].
23:20:39 <hober> tcelik: the bugs are talking about what the w3c should or shouldn't do, not what this wg should do
23:20:44 <jmr> jmr has joined #html-wg
23:20:47 <hober> rubys: we will require concrete change proposals
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23:21:17 <hober> tcelik: a possible outcome is the wg could choose to stop publishing one of these specs
23:21:32 <hober> rubys: a change proposal could take such a form
23:21:40 <hober> tcelik: couldn't these specs be done in a cg?
23:21:48 <vinny> vinny has joined #html-wg
23:21:56 <hober> rubys: i don't know of any proposal to stop any of these specs
23:22:22 <hober> rubys: the bugs suggest merging the specs as one possible outcome
23:22:34 <hober> tcelik: this is at w3c scope, not wg scope
23:22:50 <hober> paulc: noah has asked to come to our meeting tomorrow
23:22:57 <hober> ... we can ask him for status then
23:23:29 <hober> Topic: Schedule status (from the chairs' report to the AC)
23:23:36 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0276.html> 4** [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0274.html> 4** [Bug 13570] why does input type=color support autocomplete? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0273.html> 4** [Bug 13570] 
23:23:57 <hober> paulc: we will step through the slides we presented to the AC this morning
23:24:26 <hober> MikeSmith: [explains what the AC is]
23:24:48 <hober> MikeSmith: for 3 or 4 years we've done reports to the AC about the WG's status
23:25:36 <hober> MikeSmith: last 2 presentations that we did focused on what we were doing to get to LC
23:25:45 <hober> MikeSmith: we got to LC roughly on schedule
23:25:57 <hober> MikeSmith: ended LC round in August
23:26:31 <hober> ... reminded AC we publish several documents, not just the HTML5 spec
23:26:37 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
23:26:41 <hober> [applause for MikeSmith's hard work publishing our specs]
23:27:02 <hober> MikeSmith: [list of our publications]
23:27:45 <hober> ... told the AC about the author view of the spec (important to the TAG)
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23:28:29 <hober> ... Hixie had to make many edits to the spec to make the author view possible
23:29:27 <hober> ... [goes through slide describing bug status & stats]
23:30:20 <hober> paulc: the wgstatus page gives you stats in fairly fine granularity
23:31:00 <hober> ... [reads outstanding bug status from wgstatus page]
23:32:59 <hober> MikeSmith: [goes through AC report slides re: last call issues, issues awaiting or that have received new information, formal objections, etc.]
23:33:31 <MikeSmith> q
23:33:35 <MikeSmith> q?
23:34:11 <hober> ??: question for date for when new information is required
23:34:27 <hober> rubys: escalation deadline is 1/14
23:34:39 <tcelik> hober, slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTML5/
23:34:41 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Update (at www.w3.org)
23:34:48 <MikeSmith> s/??/Cynthia_Shelley/
23:35:32 <hober> paulc: you want to add new info as soon as possible
23:38:16 <hober> paulc: I think the schedule was overly pessimistic
23:38:29 <hober> paulc: we might come out of last call after the spring ac meeting
23:39:16 <hober> ... an AC rep asked about the relationship between html wg and whatwg
23:39:30 <tcelik> relation of HTML5 to the WHATWG? isn't that an FAQ?
23:39:40 <hober> ... another ac rep asked about what the decision policy would look like in several years
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23:40:02 <hober> ... the question might be better put 'how will work on html.next proceed'
23:40:29 <hober> ... jim bell from hp said nice things & complimented chairs/wg/etc
23:40:53 <anne> tcelik: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#WHATWG_and_the_W3C_HTML_WG
23:40:55 <hober> rubys: we did get less flattering comment about the approachability of the process
23:40:55 <pimpbot> Title: FAQ - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
23:41:34 <hober> Topic: Last Week in HTML5
23:42:14 <tcelik> Thanks Anne - I thought I'd seen that somewhere.
23:42:16 <hober> paulc: sent out draft schedule for tomorrow
23:42:36 <myakura> Proposed Friday F2F schedule from Paul Cotton on 2011-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2011) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0013.html
23:42:38 <pimpbot> Title: Proposed Friday F2F schedule from Paul Cotton on 2011-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2011) (at lists.w3.org)
23:43:37 <hober> karl: a few months ago I suggested to Ian Jacobs that I post weekly summaries of activity in the html wg on the QA blog
23:43:50 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/QA/
23:43:51 <pimpbot> Title: W3C Blog (at www.w3.org)
23:43:54 <hober> karl: following html wg, the bug tracker, whatwg, webapps, etc
23:44:02 <hober> karl: not following css or svg
23:44:29 <hober> karl: anne from opera is doing something similar on the whatwg blog, following whatwg & webapps
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23:44:37 <anne> http://blog.whatwg.org/
23:44:38 <pimpbot> Title: The WHATWG Blog (at blog.whatwg.org)
23:44:53 <hober> karl: thanks to the chairs for well writen decisions with links to relevant bugs etc
23:45:15 <hober> karl: this blog takes about an afternoon each week
23:45:40 <hober> ... i don't cover everything happening on the open web platform
23:45:45 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/
23:45:46 <pimpbot> Title: Open Web - W3C Blog - Category Archives (at www.w3.org)
23:46:34 <hober> ... would love to know if this is useful
23:46:49 <hober> cynthia: i find it useful
23:46:59 <hober> ArtB: I read it & anne's as well, both useful
23:47:22 <hober> rubys: lots of cross links between the two
23:47:39 <hober> adrianba: proposal: in the telcon agenda, the chairs could point at the most recent post
23:48:14 <hober> ACTION: rubys to ensure the weekly telcon agendas contain a link to the latest post in karl's series
23:48:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-206 - Ensure the weekly telcon agendas contain a link to the latest post in karl's series [on Sam Ruby - due 2011-11-10].
23:48:25 <hober> stevef: please also post the summaries to public-html
23:48:43 <hober> karl: ok, will post full text & link
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23:51:39 <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: #TPAC2011: iterating on an HTML working group change proposal for an enhanced #HTML5 <time> element: http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t7/tpac2011-html-proposal-enhanced-html5-time-element>
23:52:10 <hober2> ScribeNick: hober2
23:52:30 <hober2> [various requests for subscription options, twitter, rss, etc]
23:52:50 <hober2> hadley: could it have its own twitter account?
23:52:53 <hober2> karl: yes
23:53:25 <tcelik> +1 to what James is saying
23:53:39 <hober2> jgraham: these posts should have some of the "inside baseball"
23:53:43 <hober2> jgraham: developers can't keep up with the email lists
23:53:46 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0279.html> 4** [Bug 13392] i18n-ISSUE-72: BOM as preferred encoding declaration <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0278.html>
23:53:52 <tcelik> +1 to transparency
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23:54:02 <hober2> rubys: don't want it to be a sleep-inducing sanitized press release
23:54:37 <hober2> Topic: Teleconferences
23:54:46 <tcelik> rrsagent, pointer
23:54:46 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-irc#T23-54-46
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23:55:34 <hober2> cynthia: can we have more topical discussions on the telcon?
23:55:46 <hober2> rubys: yes, we have an "other business" section for this
23:55:46 <karl> ACTION: karl to create a twitter account for the Open Web last week 
23:55:46 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - karl
23:56:00 <hober2> rubys: we've never run over
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23:56:35 <hober2> rubys: so we can use that time to help people get caught up with what's going on
23:57:11 <hober2> richardschwerdtfe: can you get Hixie to call into the telecons?
23:57:11 <hober2> rubys: no
23:57:43 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:57:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ1
23:57:44 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
23:57:45 <hober2> rubys: different people have different work styles [etc.]
23:57:56 <hober2> rubys: had a useful f2f discussion with Hixie today
23:58:14 <hober2> MikeSmith: Hixie is available on RIC, you can ping him if you have a question
23:58:45 <karl> s/RIC/IRC/
23:58:52 <hober2> rubys: we would need to convince him that it would be worth it to join the call
23:59:32 <hober2> [discussion of timliness of pinging Hixie on IRC]
23:59:48 <hober2> mjs: there are people in the wg who are more comfortable with different kinds of interactions
23:59:59 <hober2> mjs: some prefer the mailing list, some irc, some telecons
00:00:16 <tcelik> indeed. this is why I publish my communication preferences: http://tantek.com/w/CommunicationProtocols
00:00:19 <pimpbot> Title: tantek / CommunicationProtocols (at tantek.com)
00:00:20 <hober2> mjs: the chairs try to bridge between these different kind of people
00:00:37 <hober2> richardschwerdtfe: asked you for a tech review 6 weeks ago
00:00:54 <hober2> mjs: it's difficult to schedule a detailed tech review, it needs large block of uninteruppted time
00:02:02 <hober2> rubys: the schedule has timeouts so that we can proceed even if we don't hear back from people
00:02:52 <hober2> mjs: the decision policy goes with the cp that draws the weakest objections, and i try to make sure that apple's position is stated in surveys
00:04:15 <hober2> [bits i missed re: the chairs' role in reviewing change proposals]
00:04:52 <hober2> rubys: after you submit a proposal, you can still change it
00:05:12 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
00:05:13 <hober2> richardschwerdtfe: i'm trying to avoid a 11th hour counter change proposal
00:05:40 <MikeSmith> richardschwerdtfe: we tried to reach Hixie and did didn't get any feedback
00:05:49 <MikeSmith> ... Charles didn't hear back from him
00:05:56 <MikeSmith> sam: You got your response today
00:06:10 <MikeSmith> richardschwerdtfe: but we don't want to have to wait 6 weeks next time
00:06:36 <MikeSmith> mjs: you shouldn't wait six weeks to submit it
00:07:20 <MikeSmith> sam: we are ajourned
00:07:24 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
00:07:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
00:07:26 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
00:08:11 <tantek> btw
00:08:12 <hober> hober has joined #html-wg
00:08:27 <tantek> (in ~20min)
00:08:40 <tantek> especially for non-locals who haven't had an in-n-out experience.
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00:54:00 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14690] <a> should be allowed as a child of <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use case is file downlads <dl><a href="filename1.pdf"><dt>Filename</dt><dd>description of file</dd><dd>filetype</dd></a>etc...</dl>. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0280.html>
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02:56:32 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0281.html>
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06:29:19 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14364] appcache: Add an API to make appcache support caching specific URLs dynamically <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0283.html> 4** [Bug 14260] <track> "text tracks ready" and HTMLMediaElement.readyState <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0282.html>
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06:59:25 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as opposed to scripts), the data must be embedded inline <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0286.html> 4** [Bug 14526] WF2: When adding filenames to the data set, should there be normalization of decomposed forms? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0285.html> 4** [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as opposed to scripts)
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08:59:54 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14693] New: \ rewriting in URLs never happens? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0287.html>
10:00:11 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14260] <track> "text tracks ready" and HTMLMediaElement.readyState <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0288.html>
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11:00:25 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0289.html>
11:30:33 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0290.html>
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12:00:41 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14575] <track> Spec is confused about which edge the text position starts from <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0291.html>
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15:55:40 <pimpbot> planet: Henri Sivonen: HTML5 Parser-Based View Source Syntax Highlighting <11http://hsivonen.iki.fi/view-source/>
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16:00:48 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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16:06:11 <MikeSmith> http://www.webmonkey.com/2011/11/w3c-adds-time-element-back-to-html5/
16:06:13 <pimpbot> Title: W3C Adds Time Element Back to HTML5 Webmonkey Wired.com (at www.webmonkey.com)
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16:17:14 <cyns> scribe:cyns
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16:19:59 <cyns> TOPIC:  Dialog element
16:22:13 <cyns> TOPIC:  Issue 133 Dialog
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16:24:38 <cyns> We have only one change proposal on issue 133, and the righ next step is to do a call for consensus
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16:25:17 <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
16:25:19 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-133: Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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16:25:29 <hober> the proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-133
16:25:30 <pimpbot> Title: User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-133 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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16:26:32 <eliot> all issues: http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
16:26:33 <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
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16:27:57 <cyns> RESOLUTION:  do a call for consensus on issue 133
16:28:16 <cyns> TOPIC:  Issue 30 Longdesc
16:29:03 <cyns> JS:  earlier this week PF decided to do a small aria.next release on a or short cycle and include aria-describedat in that release.
16:29:05 <dsinger> issue-30?
16:29:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open
16:29:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
16:29:06 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-30: Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:29:39 <cyns> JS:  accessibility TF has been thinking about asking for longdesc to apply to tables in addition to images
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16:30:15 <cyns> JS: that would replace @summary, and would allow AT and non-AT users to get the info without it being forced on them
16:30:46 <cyns> JS:  we're concerned that there is still some misunderstanding withitn the wg about why some of the counter-proposals are not ok with task force
16:31:12 <cyns> PC: How does aria-describedat impact issue 30?
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16:31:24 <cyns> JS: it doesn't, but is a longer term solution
16:31:38 <cyns> JF: expanding on all 3 points...
16:31:52 <cyns> JF: we sat down and defined the user requirement and looked at possible solutions
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16:32:15 <cyns> JF: user interaction... for some users providign extra info on complex objects is important
16:32:40 <cyns> JF: discoverability is also important, and it needs to be actionable
16:32:54 <cyns> JF: that's the interaction in UA for longdesc
16:33:16 <cyns> JF: need HTML markup in the altenrative after you navigate to it
16:33:29 <cyns> JF: real problem is users agent support
16:33:59 <cyns> JF: longdesc has been abused in the past, and is a mess.  but it's the best we have right now, and it supports the user needs
16:34:16 <cyns> JF: aria-describedby is not discoverable, it just gets read, no way to choose
16:34:39 <cyns> JF: only exposed to accessibility APIs, not there for non-AT usres, such as those with cognitive issues
16:35:14 <cyns> JF: describedby is flattened to a string, markup is gone in teh accessibility apis, because those apis don't support html markup
16:35:37 <cyns> JF: we've talked about introducing aria-describedat that would have a URL, and solve the use case
16:37:27 <cyns> JF: longdesc doesn't put a visual encumbrance on the graphical layer, which is an imporant use case for business.  we could put it in the chrome, but browsers are trying to have less chrome.  suggest a user preference to make longdesc indication visible
16:38:12 <cyns> JF:  looking ot introduce new attribute in aria, but there is a lot of work before it's working for real users.  while we're doing that, we ask that you leave longdesc alone until aria-describedat is ready.
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16:38:59 <cyns> PC: you are not proposing any revisions to longdesc change proposal.
16:39:03 <cyns> JF: that is correct
16:39:34 <cyns> PC: you're proposing a parallel aria solution, but don't belive it's germaine to issue 30 right now
16:40:02 <cyns> JF: important that we understand why aria-descibedby doesn't work for this use case.
16:40:20 <cyns> PC: are you proposing to get rid of describedby
16:40:28 <cyns> JF: no, it's a different use case
16:40:47 <cyns> JS:  yes, it is not impactful at this time
16:41:22 <cyns> PC: third item you wanted to discuss was the counter-arguments to longdesc based on aria-describedby
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16:42:26 <JF> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse
16:42:27 <pimpbot> Title: A11yTF/longdescresponse - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)
16:42:29 <cyns> JF: aria-describedby lacks discoverability and actionability, and gets flattened in the accessiblity apis
16:42:39 <cyns> PC:  where is the argument you're trying to counter?
16:43:16 <cyns> JF:  Jonas' proposal to keep longdesc non-conforming and chairs decision
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16:45:44 <cyns> PC: your target is the rationale section of Jonas' proposal
16:45:57 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:45:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
16:45:59 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
16:47:01 <cyns> JF:  hearing that there is pain with longdesc, we're building a solution in aria, but please leave longdesc alone while we have time to do that right
16:47:15 <cyns> PC: is there any reason not to push issue 30 forward?
16:47:18 <cyns> JF: no
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16:48:24 <eliot> Jonas proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc
16:48:25 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
16:49:13 <cyns> MC: there is also Matthew's proposal, which also asks to have longdesc non-conforming
16:49:41 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc
16:49:42 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
16:49:42 <cyns> PC: a survey would come down to whether aria-describedby is adequate
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16:51:30 <cyns> MC: the first longdesc proposal didn't list all the use cases, but this one includes several new use cases.  the counter proposal say that use cases can be satisfy the use cases.  You are arguing that aria-describedby doesn't meet the use cases
16:52:12 <cyns> PC: you need to copy all of this into the change proposal
16:52:53 <cyns> JF: what I just wrote is not a change proposal, it's a rebuttle to another change proposal
16:54:03 <cyns> PC:  we've asked the authors of the counter proposal to list why describedby works.  I heard MC asking you to list why it doesn't.
16:54:15 <cyns> JF: it does
16:54:18 <cyns> PC:  I'm not seeing it in the doc
16:54:41 <cyns> SF: are the chairs just saying to copy the stuff from wiki to the change proposal?
16:54:44 <cyns> MC: yes
16:54:47 <cyns> PC: yes
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16:55:13 <cyns> PC: when we go to survey, we want a section with responses to counter-proposal
16:55:27 <cyns> JF: we will make the chagne
16:55:37 <laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc/AlternativesAreNotViableSolutions
16:55:38 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc/AlternativesAreNotViableSolutions - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
16:56:25 <cyns> PC: do you see aria-describedat having any impact on any of the change proposals
16:56:29 <cyns> JS: not at this time
16:56:31 <laura> Suggested Alternatives Are Not Viable Solutions 
16:56:43 <laura> aria-describedat reinvents the wheel.
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16:56:50 <laura> ARIA should be used to augment the available semantics of HTML as necessary, not to duplicate a basic mechanism that has already previously been created.
16:56:56 <laura> aria-describedat is vaporware. It currently does not provide external reference functionality. longdesc provides it now.
16:57:06 <laura> aria-describedat would be strictly assistive technology oriented. Whereas @longdesc has even been implemented in Opera, iCab etc. 
16:57:13 <laura> aria-describedat is not backwards compatible. 
16:57:22 <laura> The only pain that there is with longdesc is the pain of having to reinstate it into HTML5.
16:57:23 <cyns> PC:  Actions are: TF to provide the new info in the change proposal, chairs contineu review to get to survey
16:57:38 <cyns> TOPIC: issue-164 hgroup
16:57:47 <laura> The information is already there.
16:57:49 <Stevef> hgroup replace proposal http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup 
16:57:50 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/hgroup - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
16:57:51 <Stevef> hgroup remove http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/dropHgroup
16:57:52 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/dropHgroup - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
16:59:02 <cyns> SF: use case of hiding subheadings from TOC is not compelling
17:00:12 <anne> so instead of a new element to address the use case we add a new element?
17:00:15 <cyns> SF:  Lauchland Hunt provided some patterns that hgroup would fit.  I found other ways to create that pattern, including 'subline' semantic
17:01:15 <cyns> PC:  11731 proposes to chagne hgroup to something else, 11828 is to get rid of it. 
17:01:52 <cyns> PC:  editor rejected, but there is no change proposal to leave it as is.
17:02:45 <cyns> AVK: some people stopped caring about doing the change proposal process
17:03:17 <cyns> AVK:  it's too heavyweight
17:03:29 <anne> i didn't say that cyns
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17:03:48 <cyns> sorry, please correct it to what you said
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17:04:49 <cyns> AVK: I don't get saying that we don't need an element for that use case and then addign a different elements
17:05:13 <karl> s/addign/adding/
17:05:15 <cyns> JF: was offering an additional idea for discussion.  maybe there is a reason to have it.
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17:06:40 <cyns> JF:  I suggested it to get feedback.  There some patterns where hiding a subline could be useful, but hgroup doesn't do that.  It collapses the two headings into a single heading, which is confusing for accessiblity scenarios
17:07:29 <cyns> SR: you wrote the proposal to get discussion, which didn't happen.  If you withdraw it, since you can live with the other proposal, we'll do a call for consensus.
17:07:45 <cyns> SF: I withdraw the subline proposal.
17:08:40 <cyns> PC: process point.  What happens when we do a survey and people object because they want to keep hgroup?
17:09:02 <cyns> SR: they can do a change proposal with their survey response.
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17:09:23 <cyns> PC: which will put us back in the state of having two proposals