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15:34:38 <Ralph> Meeting: TPAC Plenary
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15:34:44 <matt> scribe: Matt
15:34:55 <matt> Jeff: Today will be breakout sessions mostly.
15:34:58 <koalie> koalie has changed the topic to: TPAC: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ companion Web app at http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/live/
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15:35:11 <FabGandon> Venue of the TPAC next year : http://www.ccc-lyon.com/home
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15:35:20 <matt> Jeff: Two discussions today, one on Web and TV and another on Iteroperability.
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15:35:42 <matt> Jeff: In thinking about what to present to this group, I spent a lot of time sharing a focus that we have within W3C on the business model of the W3C.
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15:36:24 <matt> Jeff: I wanted to do something different, as many of you have heard about the business model for quite some time.  Plus the TP audience is mostly the innovators, who are more interested in how we create standards at W3C.
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15:36:54 <koalie> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:36:56 <matt> Jeff: You all see pieces of that with your team contacts and WGs, but many of you haven't seen the broad process.
15:37:05 <koalie> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
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15:37:26 <matt> Jeff: I don't have all of the answers here.  I have some answers, some open questions, but we want your feedback.
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15:37:55 <matt> Jeff: W3C Organization Focus, just two slides on this.
15:38:03 <matt> Jeff: The rest is on how to improve the creation of standards.
15:38:15 <matt> Jeff: The basis for a sustainable business model is the importance of the Web.
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15:38:37 <matt> Jeff: Thank you for creating the next ten technologies for the Web.  It is those technologies that create the sustainable business model of the W3C.
15:38:41 <SteveH_> 05slides link?
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15:38:49 <matt> Jeff: We've focused over the last year on how the Web isn't just technical, but transformative.
15:39:14 <matt> Jeff: The important thing about the Web today, the Open Web Platform, is going to transform every single business once again.
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15:39:58 <matt> Jeff: Industries are changing from the work we do in these rooms here.  Devices, Web of Data, security…  all of these companies need to be aware of that.
15:40:29 <matt> Jeff: The core of the success of the messaging we've put together can be evaluated in several ways.  The way I prefer to evaluate it, because it's succinct, is what I call 18 in 18.
15:40:52 <matt> Jeff: We've added 18 new Full Members to the W3C in the last 18 Months.  25% of our Full Members are now brand new.
15:41:13 <matt> Jeff: There is plenty of renewed interest.  Significant brand names across a wide set of industries.
15:41:23 <matt> Jeff: 2011 Focus on HOW we create standards
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15:42:18 <matt> Jeff: Getting started early, finishing on time, headlights, getting the right participants/stakeholders, how we talk to one another, developer conference, and to end, is it time for us to re-evaluate W3C process?
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15:42:56 <matt> Jeff: Getting started earlier: Community Groups.  We looked at the difficulty of getting innovators to the W3C.  We started with Incubator Groups, which were good, but not good enough.  So, we launched Community Groups.
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15:43:14 <matt> Jeff: CGs are free, open, and easy to get developers to W3C.
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15:43:36 <matt> Jeff: Anyone can participate, even non-members for free.
15:44:18 <matt> Jeff: There's latitude in how CGs work is structured.  RF and IPR are different than WGs, but can still lead to Rec.
15:44:25 <matt> Jeff: 30 CGs formed, 12 more proposed.
15:44:44 <matt> Jeff: Timeliness: Missing schedule hurts
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15:44:59 <matt> Jeff: Charters list when recommendations come out.  We usually miss the schedule.
15:45:05 <matt> Jeff: Good or bad?
15:45:07 <matt> Roger: Bad.
15:45:10 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:45:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
15:45:31 <matt> Jeff: On average it is bad.  We have to be careful in the terminology.  There's a balance between right standard late and wrong standard on time.
15:45:47 <matt> Jeff: After looking at lots of data, we were too late.
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15:46:08 <matt> Jeff: Sometimes things change, and they have to be late, but that is a minority of the situations.
15:46:28 <matt> Jeff: The cost is that we can't get as much done, damages our reputation, etc.
15:46:50 <brutzman> brutzman has joined #tpac
15:47:16 <matt> Jeff: Metrics, measured the number of projects that I looked at.  Looked at the dates on those projects, and what we originally targeted.
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15:47:34 <brutzman> today's slides are not linked at http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011
15:47:37 <matt> Jeff: What percentage are on schedule, and howlate were we.
15:48:04 <matt> Jeff: Looked at 2 categories of projects: how many got to rec in the last 12 months: 16.  How many are sitting there waiting to be completed: 147.
15:48:23 <matt> Jeff: Of the 16 we completed in the last 12 months, 9 of them we have an original date for, and of the 141 we know 91 of them.
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15:48:35 <matt> Jeff: We finish 10-20% of things on time, roughly.
15:49:00 <matt> Jeff: We're talking 100 things and finishing just 10-15% of them on time.  That might be okay if we were just consistently 6 weeks late.
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15:49:03 <matt> Jeff: But we're not.
15:49:11 <matt> Jeff: On average they were three years later than originally chartered.
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15:49:48 <matt> Jeff: Things we completed were almost 3 years late.  On going is 27 months, but that's not less than 3 years, because it's 27 months and counting.
15:50:09 <matt> Jeff: Ideas for Chairs
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15:50:42 <matt> Jeff: We have some ideas of what the team can do better, and what W3C management can do better.
15:51:30 <matt> Jeff: I want your input on this, that in an hour or so when Ian and Tantek talk about the breakouts that they propose one on this question.
15:52:21 <matt> Kai: Just wanted to point out that we already have a breakout session for that called: "Revisiting the way W3C creates specifications"
15:52:23 <matt> [[Session 3 in California room 1]]
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15:52:37 <matt> Jeff: We'll leave it up to Ian and Tantek to determine if they're the same, if they are great.
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15:53:03 <tantek> good morning
15:53:26 <matt> Jeff: How do we make sure we're noticing it on time.  We're doing work internally to the team, but presented to membership in time, to make sure the right topics are chartered in time.
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15:53:46 <matt> Jeff: We're getting better about getting new things started quickly, WebRTC, Security and Privacy, etc.
15:53:49 <matt> Jeff: But we can do better.
15:53:54 <tantek> hey KevinMarks - reask your private dm question here :)
15:54:00 <matt> Jeff: We're going to get a little more focus.
15:54:23 <Josh_Soref> s/good morning//
15:54:34 <matt> Jeff: We're going to look at new conferences, etc,  and figure out where to do new work.  Some will be incremental and get automatically get put into W3C process.
15:54:47 <matt> Jeff: In some cases there may be a whole breakthrough new dimension that requires new outreach and innovation.
15:55:07 <matt> Jeff: In that case we'll go through a new W3C "Headlights" process.  Every winter we'll see if there are new big things happening.
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15:55:44 <matt> Jeff: The hope would be then to socialize it and get it to the members at the spring AC meeting.
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15:56:06 <matt> Jeff: Then every summer we have our internal strategy conference.  There we decide resources, etc.
15:56:27 <Ian> Ian has joined #tpac
15:56:47 <matt> Jeff: Another thing we'll do for new things is that we sometimes get a situation where a WG has started, but it doesn't get traction or doesn't get adopted.  Or maybe there are a handful of people in the WG that implemented it, but no traction because critical stakeholders aren't participating.
15:56:57 <matt> Jeff: That is something we need to manage better at W3C.
15:57:11 <matt> Jeff: I've asked the AB if this is something they should be doing, and they said no, we should be, so we're doing it.
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15:57:42 <matt> Jeff: So team contacts have to assess their WGs, identify lapses, keep in touch with implementers and report weekly.
15:57:52 <Josh_Soref> s/hey KevinMarks - reask your private dm question here :)//
15:57:53 <matt> Jeff: Domain leads track that and reports to W3M quarterly or as needed.
15:58:02 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:58:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
15:58:03 <matt> Jeff: W3M figures out where we need help.
15:58:15 <matt> Jeff: Purpose of TPAC is for developers to work together.
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15:59:04 <matt> Jeff: We've heard in the past that a full day of presentations or panels or just being talked to wasn't as meaningful as some would like.  The purpose of TPAC is face to face meetings, many WGs working together.  The generalization is that we're all people and need to be talking to one another.
15:59:15 <matt> Jeff: So, let's make TPAC a giant opportunity to get people to talk to one another, we'll see how it works out.
15:59:22 <matt> Jeff: I am hopeful and anxious about how it works out.
15:59:38 <matt> Jeff: After brief plenary, there will be breakouts, then a brief closing plenary for sharing breakout info.
15:59:47 <matt> Jeff: A few announcements:
16:00:03 <matt> Jeff: We've created our first conference to focus on the needs of developers and designers.  W3Conf!
16:00:05 <Ian> Ian has joined #tpac
16:00:15 <matt> Jeff: Thanks to Doug for driving this internally at W3C and thanks to Microsoft for their generous sponsorship.
16:00:21 <Josh_Soref> i|W3C Organization Focus| Slides -- http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/jj-tpac-20111102.pdf ]|
16:00:26 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
16:00:26 <matt> Jeff: You can still register to be in the audience or join the streaming.
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16:00:46 <matt> Doug: And thank AT&T, Nokia and Adobe for also sponsoring!
16:01:03 <matt> Doug: There are still a few seats available.  If you register with code 'tpac' you get $50 off the registration.
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16:01:14 <matt> Jeff: That's two weeks from now.
16:01:22 <matt> Jeff: Next week we have the W3C Social Business Jam.
16:01:27 <Josh_Soref> s/Slides --/[ Slides --/
16:01:31 <matt> Jeff: That's where we figure out what social means to business.
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16:01:40 <Josh_Soref> s/05slides link?//
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16:02:21 <matt> Jeff: Of the items I talked about we probably spent the most time talking about Community Groups.
16:02:34 <matt> Jeff: We need to understand whether some of the CG practices can filter in to W3C WGs as well.
16:02:51 <mmielke> mmielke has joined #tpac
16:03:02 <matt> Jeff: Changing our WG process isn't something that changes on a dime, but I am interested in what changes are needed.  Who should be involved?  Who are the stakeholders?  What are the priorities for what gets solved?
16:03:16 <matt> Jeff: I hope this was useful.  I went a little over time, but let's take one or two questions.
16:03:31 <Kim> Kim has joined #tpac
16:03:33 <matt> Jeff: Let's go directly to the panels then.
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16:05:38 <matt> Topic: Web and TV IG HTML 5 Proposals
16:05:56 <matt> Mark: I am Mark Vickers from Comcast, we've been running an interest group on Web and TV.
16:06:00 <Josh_Soref> s|today's slides are not linked at http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011||
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16:06:10 <matt> Mark: Focus has been to look at use cases and compare them to the specs.
16:06:20 <matt> Mark: Most use cases were fully supported, but there were gaps.
16:06:48 <matt> Mark: The members of the group, I've split into three categories: media/operator, research/government and electronics/software products.
16:07:10 <matt> Mark: The group is about the media and operator folks delivering content to electronics and software groups.
16:07:50 <matt> Mark: There's nothing specific in this group about TV as a specific device.  There's no TV specific API.
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16:08:04 <matt> Mark: However there have been TV and media related gaps that have been identified, but they apply to all devices.
16:08:05 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:08:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
16:08:33 <matt> Mark: Media delivery has been moving to the cloud over the public internet, rather than private networks.
16:08:50 <matt> Mark: The HTML 4 world is pretty much what we deliver today.
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16:08:54 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/jj-tpac-20111102.pdf Jeff's slides
16:09:03 <matt> Mark: There's nothing in the HTML 4 spec that gets you video.  All video is done through plugins.
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16:09:27 <matt> Mark: Our world is between HTML 4 and the plugin. 
16:09:45 <tantek> I disagree with the assertion that  "There's no TV specific API" - TVs often have various hardware capabilities that are not common on other devices, e.g. multiple video/audio inputs to choose from, picture-in-picture etc. All of those could inform the design of a "TVAPI" in the broader category of WebAPIs.
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16:10:48 <matt> Mark: In television there's a mixed world, we deliver to televisions now.  Some are HTML 4, just binary, some widget like things, apps.
16:10:59 <matt> Mark: We've been working towards new hope of HTML5.
16:11:08 <Alan> ArtB: Clark Stevens (CableLabs) & Giuseppe Pascale (Opera)
16:11:13 <matt> Mark: We want to deliver content to any HTML5 Client.
16:11:29 <matt> Mark: You can add subscription based, on demand, or broadcast, but this group has been focusing on where the issues are.
16:11:35 <matt> Mark: The first area is about the delivery.
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16:12:19 <matt> Mark: In professional video we don't have just one video and one audio, but through the work of the XG people and W3C, HTML 5 has good multi-track.
16:12:23 <matt> Mark: And there are many many data tracks associated too, captions, interaction, content advisories, etc.
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16:12:41 <matt> Mark: So it's really a bundle of things that are sent out together.  That support is in there, and you'll hear Clark talk about that and what tweaks are needed.
16:12:48 <matt> Mark: There's also adaptive streaming based on available bandwidth.
16:13:04 <matt> Mark: Then there's content protection.
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16:13:15 <matt> Mark: In HTML4 this happened through plugins.
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16:13:46 <matt> Mark: In the open web there is DRM, which is done with plugins.  Those have been approved by the studios.
16:13:55 <matt> Mark: For home use there's DTCP-IP, and there are plugins for those too.
16:14:05 <matt> Mark: HTML 5 supports content protection, but it's up to the browser to support it.
16:14:33 <matt> Mark: Other options for content protection, something open source and open standards based, but new protection can be brought to the studios and approved over time.
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16:14:42 <matt> Mark: All of those are in the Media Pipeline Task Force, which has been focused on that.
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16:15:07 <matt> Mark: The other aspect is that there is another cloud.  There's a different cloud, maybe a fog or something, the cloud of the home.
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16:15:12 <matt> Mark: The connected devices of the home.
16:15:22 <matt> Mark: These are connected through technologies that Giuseppe will be talking about.
16:15:41 <matt> Mark: Browsers haven't had access to these technologies, but could.  Phone as remote, or bluetooth connections, etc.
16:15:58 <matt> Mark: That is the Home Network Task Force, extensions to provide support for the standard Web.
16:16:04 <matt> scribe: MichaelC
16:16:09 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
16:16:23 <MichaelC> Clarke Stevens, CableLabs
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16:17:01 <MichaelC> cs: my kids watch video on the web now, not tv devices
16:17:11 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
16:17:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html koalie
16:17:20 <MichaelC> some of it is proprietary formats
16:17:31 <MichaelC> no standard holds back professional industry
16:17:31 <Kim> Kim has joined #tpac
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16:17:52 <MichaelC> industry cares about content rights
16:18:05 <hta> hta has joined #tpac
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16:18:13 <MichaelC> basically, if you don't have a DRM solution, you won't get the content
16:18:37 <MichaelC> it's also not practical to support arbitrary number of protocols
16:19:03 <MichaelC> features from mainstream TV like content advisories, authorization need to be built
16:19:10 <MichaelC> accessibility solutions not standardized yet
16:19:28 <MichaelC> but of course we want to go beyond the traditional model, if we're moving to the Web
16:19:41 <MichaelC> e.g., multi-screen
16:19:52 <MichaelC> multiple content types
16:20:04 <MichaelC> platform customizations
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16:20:13 <MichaelC> interactivity
16:20:23 <MichaelC> context awareness
16:20:42 <Kai> Kai has joined #tpac
16:20:48 <MichaelC> (such as location, have program follow you as you move among devices)
16:21:07 <mmielke> mmielke has joined #tpac
16:21:13 <MichaelC> strategic use of available bandwidth
16:21:37 <MichaelC> -- requirements for the above --
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16:21:48 <MichaelC> Combined main and descriptive audio track
16:22:02 <MichaelC> Handling in-band tracks
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16:22:40 <MichaelC> (program, ads, etc. all coming together)
16:23:18 <MichaelC> Ability to pass parameters to server such as device capabilities
16:23:26 <MichaelC> to adapt bit rate etc.
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16:23:54 <MichaelC> and send feedback about how things are working within those parameters, to adjust
16:24:10 <MichaelC> Content protection (i.e., DRM)
16:24:31 <MichaelC> planning to file issues on HTML 5 to address gaps in above requirements
16:24:37 <JF> JF has joined #tpac
16:25:00 <MichaelC> need to work with HTML WG, accessibility WGs, etc. to move these requirements forward
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16:26:04 <MichaelC> == Guiseppe Pascale, Opera ==
16:26:52 <MichaelC> gp: Q: What do all the devices people use have in common?
16:27:09 <MichaelC>  A: they all run a browser, and all run on home network
16:27:32 <MichaelC> huge percentage of people watch TV and surf internet at same time
16:27:37 <MichaelC> use cases for multi-screen
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16:27:59 <MichaelC> select video to watch on PC, then send to TV
16:28:15 <MichaelC> stick everything onto one screen
16:28:29 <MichaelC> use smartphone as device remote control
16:28:52 <MichaelC> supplemental content to program on auxiliary devices
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16:29:07 <MichaelC> when we have connected devices, can meet these use cases and others
16:29:18 <MichaelC> the technology is almost there
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16:29:49 <MichaelC> but you have to download application, it has to discover your devices and be able to communicate with them
16:30:06 <MichaelC> no way for device discovery exists right now
16:30:16 <MichaelC> both their existence, and available services
16:30:54 <MichaelC> existing mechanisms can support communication between devices
16:31:19 <MichaelC> but need to address communication between two client user agents, wrt same origin restriction
16:32:09 <MichaelC> Home Network Task Force has determined the device discovery is the primary gap needs focus
16:32:41 <MichaelC> could use XHR if relaxing same origin restriction
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16:33:24 <MichaelC> There have been a series of Web & TV workshops
16:33:46 <MichaelC> today, want to explore some of the results with groups here
16:34:19 <MichaelC> Friday there is a joint Web&TV and DAP meeting to start technical work
16:34:55 <dom> -> http://people.opera.com/giuseppep/hntf-usecases-gaps/#slide1 Giuseppe's slides
16:35:24 <Josh_Soref> i|What do all the|http://people.opera.com/giuseppep/hntf-usecases-gaps/|
16:35:34 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:35:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
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16:37:07 <MichaelC> == Mark Vickers ==
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16:37:26 <MichaelC> s/Mark Vickers/Clarke Stevens/
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16:37:42 <MichaelC> cs: have implemented API from CableLabs as an applet
16:37:53 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2011Oct/0400.html Discovery API demo (Member-only)
16:38:28 <MichaelC> which tries to address issues raised in the presentations this morning
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16:40:06 <MichaelC> Roger_Cutler: think there could be security implications, is this being investigated?
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16:40:39 <MichaelC> Mark_Vickers: not really being explored yet, but now is the time
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16:40:58 <MichaelC> Ileana_Leuca: suggest meet with WebRTC
16:41:03 <Kim> Kim has joined #tpac
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16:41:12 <MichaelC> some areas of common interest in the technical solutions
16:41:57 <MichaelC> Ralph_Brown: how do we instill urgency in this work?
16:42:16 <MichaelC> mv: many of the issues already filed on HTML 5, as tweaks of existing features
16:42:21 <MichaelC> Home Networking API is new
16:42:29 <MichaelC> looking for where that would go
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16:43:35 <MichaelC> cs: demoing 2 UPnP servers and a DAP server
16:44:03 <brutzman> better  focus possible?
16:44:09 <MichaelC> start discovery
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16:44:48 <MichaelC> <permissions issues scupper demo>
16:45:11 <MichaelC> UA should present a dialog box listing discovered devices
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16:45:24 <MichaelC> user indicates which ones to tell Web page exist
16:45:27 <matt> s/permissions/technical/
16:45:35 <MichaelC> then can use XHR to communicate between them
16:45:55 <MichaelC> use can change which devices exposed to the network at any time
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16:47:23 <dsr> scribenick: dsr
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16:47:44 <koalie> topic: panel: Web Content Interoperability
16:48:13 <MichaelC> s/join #tpac-chat//
16:48:18 <MichaelC> s/join #tpac-chat mission//
16:48:31 <dsr> Topic: web content interoperability
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16:48:37 <MichaelC> s/\/join #tpac-chat//
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16:48:50 <dsr> chaired by Bryan Sullivan
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16:50:06 <dsr> Why worry about content interoperability? There a somewhat accurate perception among developers that developing for the web is hard, especially for the mobile web.
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16:50:43 <Josh_Soref> s|/join #tpac-chat|
16:50:50 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:50:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
16:51:15 <Josh_Soref> s|s/\//|
16:51:16 <dsr> why does that perception exist/persist? What are your expectations for content interoperability? what are the top issues for W3C to focus on?
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16:51:54 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
16:52:17 <dsr> e.g. the role of the W3C Testing actvity for verifying consistent behaviour across browsers.
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16:53:27 <dsr> Devlopers want it to just work!  It doesn't have to be totally easy - after all we live in the real world.
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16:53:49 <dsr> So what do you think are the key interoperability issues?
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16:54:00 <dsr> what can be addressed by more/better testing
16:54:01 <Josh_Soref> i|Today will be|Topic: Successes and Challenges|
16:54:19 <dsr> what can be done with better specs or improved W3C processes?
16:55:03 <dsr> what issues can be addressed by supplemental approaches, e.g. JavaScript libraries, developer guidelines etc.
16:55:12 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:55:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
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16:56:28 <dsr> Kai (Deutsche Telekom) we care about content interoperability and our designers traditionally cared about pixel for pixel accuracy.
16:56:51 <Alan> Alan has joined #tpac
16:57:00 <dsr> It was a battle to convince that that isn't the big issue.
16:57:12 <dsr> s/that that/them that that/
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16:58:17 <dsr> Dealing with variations across browser versions would cost about one million euros, something no one will pay for,
16:58:31 <dsr> We therefore focus on a small number of browsers and versions.
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16:59:00 <dsr> Bryan: those costs get in the way of other work, e.g. on improved accessibility.
16:59:03 <Alan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Alan
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17:00:19 <dsr> mentions the ability for developers to sell apps in app stores.
17:00:58 <dsr> customers will be upset if the applications that they have paid for turn out not to work properly.
17:01:15 <koalie> s/mentions/Soonho Lee, SK Telecom, mentions/
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17:01:26 <dsr> Bryan: the economic model for native and web apps is different.
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17:01:58 <dsr> Soonhoo Lee: we need to reduce the costs of testing, better interoperability will help that.
17:02:52 <Bert> b
17:04:02 <dsr> Claudio Venezia (Telecom Italia) if there is a core set of interoperable features that would help. This is better than large but poorly implemented specs.
17:04:46 <dsr> Bryan: if the specs take too long to finish, interop testing can't happen in a timely way.
17:05:31 <Josh_Soref> [ Laughter ]
17:05:34 <dsr> Wilhem Joys Amdersen (Opera) a spec with out a test suite is a fiction likewise for specs without the corresponding content.
17:05:42 <Josh_Soref> s/with out/without/
17:06:24 <Ian> WJA: 1 Million test cases to test the web platform
17:06:24 <dsr> We've learned that the Web is fragile.  We need W3C test suites to be comprehensive and accurate. I believe we will need about one million tests for HTML5.
17:06:44 <dsr> JQuery is necessary to work around variations between today's browsers.
17:06:47 <Josh_Soref> s/web platform/web platform -- best get started now/
17:07:47 <dom> s/Amdersen/Andersen/
17:07:57 <dsr> Anne Bosetti (Boeing) we have the same problem in big companies and our developers struggle to understand how to address the interop issues for the Web.
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17:08:53 <dsr> Kai (DT) W3C's mission to lead the Web to its full potential - this is being hurt by the interop problems 
17:09:16 <koalie> Roger: you're focusing on the browser (??)
17:09:28 <dsr> Roger: W3C seems fixated on the browser, there is a lot more to consider
17:09:58 <dsr> Ann: we also are interested in a wider range of devices than desktop and mobile.
17:10:32 <brutzman> not hearing an accessibility story...  are they thinking interoperability first, maybe accessibility later?
17:10:45 <dsr> Noah (TAG) this community puts a huge amount of effort into being liberal in what the browsers accept, 
17:10:59 <dsr> but perhaps less on other aspects.
17:11:38 <dsr> Mary Brady (NIST) testing is hard! We would be happy to share our past experiences with you.
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17:12:05 <ArtB> ACTION: Mary Brady get NIST to submit the 1,000,000 test cases Wilhelm said we will need for HTML5
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17:12:55 <dsr> Charles (Opera) there is a feeling that real men write HTML in a text editor, but good authoring tools are a really important part of the puzzle.
17:13:44 <dsr> Bryan: the integration of Web APIs in to good authoring tools is really valuable.
17:14:18 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/testing/ig/ Web Testing interest group
17:14:45 <dsr> Philippe (W3C) millions of dollars spent on testing for big websites. If at W3C we don't put the required effort into testing for HTML5 we will be suffering for a long time into the future.
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17:15:25 <dsr> Kai: the answer doesn't lie in perfect specifications that take a long time to finish, better to crowd source smaller specs.
17:15:59 <dsr> Daniel Glazman (Mozilla) we lack editing coordination across W3C specs
17:16:22 <dsr> Bryan thanks everyone for their comments.
17:16:22 <Bert> s/Mozilla/Disruptive Innovations/
17:16:27 <dsr> ... applause ...
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17:16:40 <Josh_Soref> s/... applause .../[ Applause ]
17:17:12 <koalie> Topic: Agenda building
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17:17:14 <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:17:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html Josh_Soref
17:17:47 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011#Session_Grid BarCamp/BreakOut Session Grid
17:17:48 <glazou> dsr: I am not working for Mozilla, have never been working for them
17:18:20 <dsr> Ian explains how the rest of the day will work
17:18:30 <dsr> Ian thanks the members of the TPAC plenary program committee
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17:19:10 <dom> s/dsr:/dsr,/
17:20:00 <dsr> Tantek explains about bar camps. Every session today have been written up on the wiki, see http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/PlenaryBreakouts
17:20:46 <dsr> Tantek asks people to introduce themselves to the people seated behind them.
17:21:52 <dsr> (lots of noise as everyone starts talking)
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17:22:42 <plh> rrsagent, where am I?
17:22:42 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-irc#T17-22-42
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17:23:46 <dsr> Tantek calls us all to order....
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17:24:23 <dsr> Ian: we are going to spend the next 20 minutes to work on scheduling the break out sessions.
17:24:48 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011#Session_Grid Schedule of the break out sessions
17:24:51 <dsr> Each session is about an hour long and the first will run until Lunch
17:25:20 <Josh_Soref> [ Crickets ]
17:25:34 <dsr> There will then be 3 more sessions and we will then come back for a show and tell report back.
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17:25:55 <dbaron> Should there be a time limit for the sharing presentations?
17:26:11 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas Session ideas on W3C wiki
17:26:50 <dsr> Tantek: some months back we decided to invite topic proposals on a wiki. We preselected a small set of them. You don't have to go to them.
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17:27:17 <dsr> The actual schedule is picked today.
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17:28:44 <dsr> You will be invited to come to the front and write your breakout proposal on the green sheets: please write 3 things - the subject of the session, the name of the discussion leader(s) and the hashtag for the IRC channel and for twitter if you plan to use that as well.
17:29:10 <dsr> You don't need to take a full hour slot if you don't need that.
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17:30:22 <dsr> There is a record number of people at this TPAC, so space is at a premium. This makes it a good idea to merge closely related sessions.
17:30:46 <dsr> There is also some overflow areas for smaller sessions.
17:30:57 <dsr> s/is/are/
17:31:47 <dsr> Ian encourages people to come to the summary session at the end of the day and for each breakout to assign scribes to take notes on the IRC channel.
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17:32:08 <dsr> Tantek - be sure that the scribe links to the grid on the wiki.
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17:33:19 <dsr> Tantek invites people to come forward now to post the proposals on the whiteboard.
17:34:24 <Josh_Soref> [ Cricket ]
17:34:47 <Josh_Soref> Anne: We want to reserve a time slot
17:34:51 <JonathanJ> Rrsagent, draft minutes
17:34:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html JonathanJ
17:36:20 <koalie> [people break to break-out rooms]
17:36:29 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
17:36:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html koalie
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18:16:39 <jeff_> Where is the grid posted?
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18:18:02 <amy> grid: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011#Session_Grid
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18:52:23 <shawn> pointer to page with sessions?
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18:52:32 <hober> shawn: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011#Session_Grid
18:52:37 <shawn> thanks!
18:53:05 <hober> np
18:54:08 <matt> matt has changed the topic to: TPAC: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ companion Web app at http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/live/ Breakouts: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011#Session_Grid
18:54:23 <koalie> thanks matt
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23:33:36 <jeanne> meeting: Sharing and Advocacy Plenary
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23:43:50 <jeanne> Laura: Building Cloud Applications.  Started on cloud security, but the group was more interested in standards around cloud applications.  How can we leverage existing standards to apply to cloud
23:44:07 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Building_Apps_in_the_Cloud TPAC2011/Building Apps in the Cloud
23:44:08 <jeanne> ... what can W3C do in addressing issues now and going forward. 
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23:44:33 <jeanne> Doug: Developer documentation and education: We talked about the need for better documentation
23:44:37 <jeanne> ... to help people create content.  
23:44:59 <jeanne> ... discontinutity between developer documentation and specifications. 
23:45:26 <jeanne> ... HTML5 has a mode that hides and just shows developer documentation
23:45:47 <brutzman> can someone please link "Declarative 3D" on the meeting matrix at 1430 in room B to http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/
23:45:53 <dom> [the W3C cheatsheet extracts data from specs to build a dictionnary of markup elements, css properties, etc, cf http://dev.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/doc/developer.html ]
23:45:56 <jeanne> ... how summaries in working groups would be very useful.  "THis week in X working group" so people would understand issues in specs
23:46:20 <jeanne> ... reaching out to international contacts to increase translations
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23:46:50 <dom> http://w3c-test.org
23:47:05 <jeanne> plh: Testing in Web Browsers: update on status on the current work. There is framework on a mercurial server w3c-test.org. There are a few working groups using it.
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23:47:20 <jeanne> ... showing testharness.js
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23:47:45 <dom> http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/resources/testharness.js
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23:47:46 <jeanne> Brian: API Design Approach: Data minimization for privacy protection
23:47:51 <dom> s/Brian/Bryan/
23:47:56 <jeanne> ... make sure API is t argeted to the audience
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23:48:11 <jeanne> ... the design should follow a progressive path
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23:49:13 <RalphS> [Bryan reviews -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/API_Design_Approaches_and_the_Rationales_for_Them Results ]
23:49:15 <jeanne> [summary on the web page]
23:49:52 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-global-minutes.html minutes of Global Participation Breakout
23:50:13 <jeanne> Ann: Encourage more global participation in w3c and web
23:50:27 <jeanne> ... we think people should speak more slowly with simpler English
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23:50:36 <jeanne> [applause]
23:51:36 <jeanne> ... part is the W3C does very technical work.  Timezones.  Email thread that is fast-moving, may have a decision before participants in Asia even wake up. Unfair.  
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23:51:59 <jeanne> ... quiet voiced people have a hard time getting attention on a call
23:52:42 <brutzman> japanese gamer in the HTML5+Games breakout described "globish" = Global English  8)
23:52:45 <jeanne> Mani: Challenge of Identity
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23:53:33 <jeanne> ...enabling good user experience is to insure that the user knows who they are talking to. Two-way communication with privacy safeguards.  
23:53:51 <jeanne> ... applicable models like OpenID for authentication.
23:54:37 <jeanne> ... we don't trust the service provider, the email ID is the most ubiquitous identifier.  
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23:55:41 <jeanne> Alan: Social Business Jam: we talked about how the JAM will work, it is international, there will be 6 topics and anyone can participate 24/7 for three days
23:56:30 <jeanne> Tad: Agile Standardization within the W3C Process
23:56:58 <chaals> s/Tad/Tab/
23:56:59 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Agile_Standardization Agile Standardization Summary
23:56:59 <jeanne> ... Modularize - interconnects can kill you. FOcus on a bedrock spec as fast and small as possible.  
23:57:33 <jeanne> ... then build modules on top of that that only refer to the bedrock spec and limit the interdependecies between them
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23:58:01 <jeanne> ... stages: Exloratory, Stable and Recommended
23:58:18 <jeanne> ... blog post from fantasai
23:58:34 <jeanne> Cathy: Open Gov Data 
23:59:01 <Bert> s/Cathy/Hadley/
23:59:01 <jeanne> ... governments decided that anonymous data should be available for others to use.  But it is not standardized
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23:59:30 <jeanne> ... we discussed transfer between formats, documentation of the data
23:59:31 <jeanne> ... proprietary formats and licensing problems
23:59:46 <jeanne> ... linking to new formats of the data created by a 3rd party
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00:00:13 <jeanne> ... need for new vocabularies - differnt language used by govs and devleopers
00:00:40 <jeanne> Paul: HTML WG Decision Policy
00:00:44 <spoussa> spoussa has joined #tpac
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00:01:01 <jeanne> ... explained the history, why WG needed more than the W#C process
00:01:20 <jeanne> ... a surprise that the decision policy could evolve without a charter change
00:01:20 <dom> s/W#/W3/
00:01:52 <jeanne> ... concern that the editor handled the bugs and then the bugs can be escalated
00:02:00 <jeanne> ... informative session
00:02:12 <jeanne> Jeff: Fixing Schedule Delays
00:02:41 <jeanne> ... started with Jeff's ideas, which were thrown out and started with a blank slate. 
00:02:54 <jeanne> ... 23 ideas, narrowed down to 16
00:03:16 <jeanne> ... create a separate role of test editor for every document
00:03:29 <jeanne> ... create concept of a living working group that will last forever
00:03:34 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Fixing_schedule_delays TPAC2011/Fixing schedule delays
00:03:46 <jeanne> ... implementors need to make commitments earlier in the process
00:04:06 <ArtB> Minutes from scheduling delays: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-schedule-minutes.html
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00:04:46 <jeanne> Johannes - Declarative 3D.  Only Community Group breakout session. 
00:05:00 <Alan> Alan has joined #tpac
00:05:08 <jeanne> ... put 3D as a declarative language in the DOM.  
00:05:38 <ksons> ksons has joined #tpac
00:05:42 <jeanne> ... how the system evolved over the last few years and what could be the outcome of the community group
00:05:59 <jeanne> ... the main plan is to get the requirements and use cases
00:06:03 <jeanne> ... then showed demos
00:06:34 <jeanne> Dan: Right to Link
00:06:46 <jeanne> ... copyright and publishing data on the web
00:08:11 <jeanne> ... inform opinion of people in regulartory and policy arena, on what it means to host web sites.  So that policy makers understand web publishing. 
00:08:16 <jeanne> ... definitions of terms
00:08:30 <jeanne> ... guidance for terms of service
00:08:41 <jeanne> ... fair use, reuse of data, content, and publishing
00:08:42 <anne> anne has joined #tpac
00:09:17 <jeanne> ... contribute thought to Dan or TAG mailing list
00:09:28 <jeanne> Kim: Explosion of Input Methods
00:09:31 <stearns> stearns has joined #tpac
00:09:53 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Adjusting_to_explosion_of_input_methods TPAC2011/Adjusting to explosion of input methods
00:10:00 <jeanne> ... there were the keyboard and the mouse.  Now there are 5 input methods - touch, speech and gesture
00:10:21 <jeanne> ... less hacking, most systematic approach, giving users more choice
00:10:37 <brutzman> brutzman has joined #tpac
00:10:40 <jeanne> ... we need to talk across groups. Intentional Events, EMMA
00:10:43 <mark> mark has joined #tpac
00:11:48 <jeanne> HTML5 and Games: Game programming HTML5 for KIds.  Shows cartoon showing W3C
00:11:59 <tantek> tantek has joined #tpac
00:12:03 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/HTML5_and_Games TPAC2011/HTML5 and Games
00:13:11 <jeanne> Raman: Evolving web platform Web APIs and accessibility
00:13:23 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-winteract-minutes.html minutes of breakout on Web Apis and Accessibility
00:13:45 <tantek> :)
00:13:54 <jeanne> ... web platform is being to include very rich interaction APIs, speech.  Web apps do all the work instead of letting the UI appear elsewhere.  
00:14:19 <brutzman> (late entry) the Declarative 3D breakout session description is at http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas#Declarative_3D_Graphics_on_the_Web
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00:14:31 <jeanne> ... services on the web - google maps, twitter - allow the developer to build light weight web apps with different UIs based on the service.  
00:14:55 <jeanne> ... now we have the ability to deliver apps that meet the needs of every individual user.
00:15:14 <dom> re HTML Speech in the browser, cf http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/att-0064/speechwepapi_1_.html
00:15:22 <jeanne> Kai: Revidsiting how W3C creates standards
00:15:31 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Revisiting_how_W3C_creates_standards TPAC2011/Revisiting how W3C creates standards
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00:15:40 <jeanne> ... we had so many input points we decided to brainstorm
00:15:42 <koalie> s/vidsi/visi/
00:15:52 <dom> [A community Group has been created in result of the session Kai is presenting: http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/ ]
00:16:00 <jeanne> ... specs are too large, too complex, and too long
00:16:11 <RalphS> [Kai summarizes -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Revisiting_how_W3C_creates_standards Revisiting how W3C creates standards ]
00:16:21 <jeanne> ... the process document doesn't match the development
00:16:27 <jeanne> ... hard to fix charter
00:16:51 <jeanne> ... drafts are continuously outdated
00:17:09 <jeanne> ... hard to determine what the changes are
00:17:23 <jeanne> ... specs are only looked at during Last Call
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00:18:01 <jeanne> Kevin: HTML5 AV Club session - as opposed to putting more DRM in HTML5
00:18:05 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-htmlav-minutes.html minutes of breakout on HTML5 AV Club
00:18:22 <jeanne> ... missing - the ability to create a playlist
00:18:32 <jeanne> ... adaptive streaming discussion
00:19:14 <jeanne> ... the difference between a short news program vs. a streaming moving. 
00:19:22 <jeanne> s/moving/movie
00:19:29 <jeanne> ... the ability to save media
00:20:37 <burn> burn has joined #tpac
00:20:39 <jeanne> Paul: jQuery and js developers want from web standards:
00:20:49 <jeanne> ... feature detection
00:21:07 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-jquery-minutes.html minutes of breakout on What jquery and js developers want from web stds.
00:21:16 <jeanne> ... detecting what the best features are of each browser
00:21:21 <jeanne> ... documenting
00:21:41 <jeanne> ... use cases of benefits of the spec
00:22:18 <jeanne> ... community for authors to interact with the standards community and getting their feedback listened to
00:22:43 <jeanne> ... standards work email lists are scary, and there need to be ways to attract their input.
00:23:01 <jeanne> ... a safe place to propose ideas
00:23:34 <jeanne> IanJ: this is the second community group, and it may be an option for your group as a next step
00:23:40 <jeanne> Alex: Linked Data
00:23:40 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Linked_data TPAC2011/Linked data
00:24:08 <jeanne> ... how can we communicate to people. We don't have the right resources. 
00:24:19 <jeanne> ... what is the difference with  Open Linked Data.  
00:24:55 <jeanne> ... we put more emphasize on enterprise and linked enterprise linked data especially data integration
00:25:05 <jeanne> ... there will be a workshop in December
00:25:27 <jeanne> ... TimBL's 5 stars of Linked Data
00:25:37 <mark> mark has joined #tpac
00:25:42 <jeanne> ... discussed forming a community group. 
00:25:51 <jeanne> ... also about studying patterns
00:26:23 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/Web-based_Digital_Signage TPAC2011/Web-based Digital Signage
00:26:29 <jeanne> Toru: Web-based Digital Signage
00:26:59 <jeanne> ... features and functions, use cases in Japan
00:27:14 <jeanne> s/Toru/Shinji
00:27:36 <jeanne> Robin: Improving W3C Ecosystem
00:27:41 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/W3C_Publications_Ecosystem  TPAC2011/W3C Publications Ecosystem
00:27:56 <jeanne> ... hard in terms of producing specs that match existing specifications
00:28:05 <jeanne> ...style and boilerplate
00:28:12 <dom> Follow up conversations on publication ecosystem will happen on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/
00:28:38 <jeanne> ... some css hackers are going to work on that and develop some icons to improve understanding of status
00:28:51 <jeanne> ... html5 will soon be able to be used in specs
00:29:00 <anne> yay
00:29:17 <jeanne> ... rich UI in specs - linking to test suides, comment on spec, etc
00:29:39 <jeanne> ... tooling - common output, inserting references
00:30:00 <jeanne> ... wikis to create specs, rich semantics
00:30:18 <jeanne> ... W3C needs a Managing Editor to be a go-to
00:30:35 <jeanne> Debbie: Demos of W3C technologies
00:30:49 <jeanne> ... CSS regions, layouts
00:31:18 <jeanne> ... Open Stream, medical history on tablet or handheld medical history tool that can dictate or add videos
00:31:46 <jeanne> ... InkML - interoperability of Powerpoint, HTML5 and chat
00:31:54 <jeanne> Ted: HTML5 and Games
00:32:20 <jeanne> ... new community group of people who were interested in games on top of HTML5.  
00:32:30 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/HTML5_and_Games  TPAC2011/HTML5 and Games
00:32:39 <jeanne> ... report from the HTML.next for Games
00:32:47 <jeanne> ... need better audio support for games
00:33:02 <darobin> s/Improving W3C Ecosystem/Improving W3C Publications Ecosystem/
00:33:41 <jeanne> ... developers don't know what to use, and browsers don't know what to use, so we are trying to improve the communication
00:33:50 <jeanne> ... make real requirements to go to working groups
00:34:05 <jeanne> Mark: Content Protection
00:35:05 <jeanne> ... it is clearly not an objective to standardize in HTML5, but there are capabilities that need to be exposed so that commercial services can be supported. 
00:35:36 <jeanne> ... if you try to play back protected content, the key exchange can be mediated at the service layer
00:36:10 <jeanne> ... need for more descriptive error codes when things go wrong
00:36:23 <burn> burn has joined #tpac
00:36:42 <jeanne> ... this can be reported back to the customer service of commercial companies. 
00:36:49 <jeanne> ... there will be more discussion about this. 
00:37:31 <jeanne> IanJ: please give feedback
00:37:44 <jeanne> ... thanks to the program committee
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00:38:05 <koalie> -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2011-feedback/ Feedback survey
00:38:05 <fukuno> W3C girl here -> http://fukuno.com/w3c_girl.html
00:38:06 <jeanne> Topic: Wrap up
00:38:30 <amy> TimBL:  I got mutiny/desertion. Jeff pointed out that he'd been jumping up and down all the time and I had hoped he hadn't noticed I'd be sitting there having fun
00:38:36 <koalie> scribenick: amy
00:38:39 <amy> ... he's dropped out of the wrapup. just me
00:38:57 <amy> ... I wanted to say thank you. i want to say my own thank you to Ian and Tantek for the unconference thing (clapping)
00:39:03 <koalie> i/TimBL:/scribenick: amy/
00:39:05 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
00:39:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html koalie
00:39:13 <amy> ... I've done a few unconferences. this one, I think, though I may be biased. i feel people were really enaged
00:39:40 <amy> ... I didn't go to every room but the ones I felt the vibe from, people were there w/ acute interest, acute need to communicate or resolve.
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00:40:06 <amy> ... from my pov, from my own need to get connected into things, it passed the connected sessions test. the urge to be in more than you really can be. i regret missing some
00:40:29 <amy> ... that made me feel to a certain extent that my thirst had been quenched but my appetite whetted to learn more.
00:40:34 <Kim> Kim has joined #tpac
00:40:51 <amy> .... this is a massive task, building the next web. there is a huge amount of work. there is a huge amount of coordination
00:41:08 <amy> ... one of the interesting things it to take this and ask to what extent W3c can be an un-organization
00:41:18 <amy> .. if we can do this f2f, to what extent can we do this to w3c
00:41:36 <amy> ... w3c has always been a group that decides it's own process, makes it's own agenda.
00:42:01 <amy> ... i have a feeling that lots of groups were talking about architecture, modulairity, etc. ".which way should we take things?"
00:42:33 <amy> .... different groups are working out what it is we need in the future. can we, you, us, together, when we go home, when we go back online, can we work in a distriubuted fashion to address communal things.
00:42:57 <amy> ... communal things like consistent architecture. testing. i love that everyone is talking about testing. that's great. it's great that we're taking testing seriously
00:43:12 <amy> ... doing architectural design, that's more of a test of the un-organization
00:43:36 <koalie> s/meeting: Sharing and/topic: Sharing and/
00:43:43 <amy> ... another issue, managing process. i liked the group meeting by the bar from which I was politely excluded. they reengineered the w3c, reconstructed
00:43:55 <Josh_Soref> s|t argeted|targeted|
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00:43:59 <amy> .. different places where people are looking at publication, HTML5 group
00:44:06 <amy> ... difficult things but very important
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00:44:24 <koalie> i|Mark: Content Protection|-> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webcp-minutes.html minutes of breakout on Content Protection|
00:44:28 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
00:44:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html koalie
00:44:29 <amy> ... I'd like to leave w/ you to be communal.  think about this being an unconference. think that if you don't do it maybe someone will.
00:44:45 <amy> ... if you organzie other people's lives/architecture. you ahve to be respectful
00:45:10 <amy> ... i hope people will find this a good time for talking not to people you think are right.  but also to those you think are wrong. go find them. find out where they're coming form.
00:45:18 <amy> ... you have alcohol at your disposal.
00:45:39 <amy> ... this happened because of tantek and Ian. Jeff also had a lot to do w/ this.  Thank you Jeff for running the org
00:45:54 <amy> .... mainly it is the admin team.. all the stuff we never heard about
00:46:27 <amy> ... i leave you w/ this challenge. we've had one day of unconference. think aobut your role in an unorganization.  think about the process. let's make it something w/ works on mutual respect. something peer-to-peer.
00:47:18 <amy> ... everywhere we've made a rule (sometimes because we've done something wrong). we put constraints and boilerplate. let's review them. love the idea of replacing w/ icons. let's think aobut neew ones. we'll get them wrong but on balance. we should be constantly be modfigying our thoughts about architecture
00:47:37 <amy> ... last people that I thanked, front half of the room stand up!! stand up (I mean it!)
00:47:51 <amy> everyone stand up, up to Coralie, stand up, turn around everyone else stand up, as you'rea ble
00:48:03 <amy> everybody clap (clapping). well done. thank  you for coming
00:48:06 <amy> ... until next time
00:48:15 <amy> ....reception, 6pm end of the hall
00:48:22 <ddahl_> ddahl_ has left #tpac
00:49:19 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
00:49:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-minutes.html koalie
00:52:08 <amy> sure thing coco
00:53:39 <KevinMarks> KevinMarks has joined #tpac
00:53:58 <plinss> plinss has joined #tpac
00:54:17 <koalie> RRSAgent, bye
00:54:17 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-actions.rdf :
00:54:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mary Brady get NIST to submit the 1,000,000 test cases Wilhelm said we will need for HTML5 [1]
00:54:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-tpac-irc#T17-12-05