IRC log of testing on 2011-11-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-testing-irc
18:22:03 [ArtB]
Chair: Wilhelm
18:22:23 [ArtB]
Meeting: #testing breakout @ TPAC 2011
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Chair: James
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Date: 2 November 2011
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Scribe: ArtB
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Agenda: TPAC Testing - a Practical Sesion
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RRSAgent, make log Public
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Present: Wilhelm, PeterH, DavidB, JamesG, PLH, Kris, ArtB, Laszlo, EdO
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s/PeterH/PeterL/
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RRSAgent, make minutes
18:24:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-testing-minutes.html ArtB
18:25:16 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
18:25:27 [ArtB]
JG: welcome everyone
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Present+ MarkV
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Present: Joh
18:26:12 [ArtB]
Present: Wilhelm, PeterH, DavidB, JamesG, PLH, Kris, ArtB, Laszlo, EdO
18:26:42 [ArtB]
Present+ Mark, MikeSmith, JohnJ
18:26:52 [ArtB]
JG: start with current state
18:26:56 [ArtB]
… in the various WGs
18:27:03 [ArtB]
… I know about WebApps and HTML WGs
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… want to look at testing formats
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18:27:21 [ArtB]
… and the procs for gathering tests
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… Would like to know about areas for improvement
18:27:47 [ArtB]
KK: how many are familiar with Hg/Mercurial?
18:27:52 [ArtB]
… and submitting tests?
18:28:13 [ArtB]
… And how to create W3C tests?
18:28:20 [ArtB]
… [ Not very many ]
18:28:31 [ArtB]
… Can talk about how to push test cases to W3C
18:28:38 [ArtB]
… We don't @ Msft use Hg
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… but it's pretty easy
18:29:00 [ArtB]
… Can search for Mercurial
18:29:13 [JohnJansen]
http://mercurial.selenic.com/
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AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WorkMode#CVS_and_Mercurial
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18:29:51 [ArtB]
KK: the HTML WG has a wiki of resources
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… we use public-html-testsuite
18:30:11 [stearns]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/mercurial
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18:31:12 [ArtB]
… HTML wiki: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
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18:31:38 [ArtB]
… after getting Mercurial
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… must create a ~/.hgrc file
18:31:51 [jgraham]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
18:31:54 [ArtB]
… or ini file for other OS's
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… May need to mess with proxy settings if behind a f/w
18:32:37 [jdurand]
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18:33:02 [ArtB]
… after install, Hg should be in $PATH
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… the verbs are pull and push
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… to get a local copy, use pull
18:34:01 [krisk]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Submission/
18:34:07 [jgraham]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/
18:34:12 [ArtB]
AB: mirror is: http://w3c-test.org//
18:34:33 [ArtB]
KK: the Hg root has tests and specs
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… so not just about tests
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18:35:07 [ArtB]
… after a test is `push`ed to server, it is stored in a src control system
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… can do some complex stuff on backend e.g. PHP
18:35:24 [plh_]
--> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TestInfra/goals Test infrastructure goals
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… Several WGs are using it
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… there is a `resources` folder
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… it includes some sample tests
18:35:54 [jgraham]
http://w3c-test.org/resources/
18:36:29 [ArtB]
JG: there are some sample HTML5 API tests
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… e.g. http://w3c-test.org//resources/apisample.htm
18:37:07 [ArtB]
… designed to integrate with internal testing resources/frameworks/tools
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… can make them talk to each other a bit
18:38:13 [ArtB]
KK: expect people to pull tests and run them internally
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… W3C server can't support lots of browser vendors running their tests on w3.org resources
18:39:03 [ArtB]
Q: is it possible to select specific test cases for a spec?
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… so not clear if I can find specific test cases
18:39:39 [ArtB]
JG: for HTML test suite, the directory names give a hint
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… the CSS WG is working on something more sophisticated
18:40:08 [ArtB]
PL: we are working on a bug tracker for the tests
18:40:22 [ArtB]
… want to support test case management
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… includiing metadata
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… want to link test cases to specific parts of the spec
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… it is up and running now
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… but still needs some work
18:41:09 [ArtB]
Q: how about optional vs. mandatory parts of the spec?
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PL: we want to support that
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18:41:42 [ArtB]
… we need to markup the spec to facilitiate test cases pointing to specific parts of the spec
18:42:17 [ArtB]
… If want to browse the spec, want to be able to see what tests are available
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… We also use an annotation system
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… so that results from tests runs are available to someone browsing the spec
18:43:10 [ArtB]
Mark: is there any type of overall plan?
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… and some data about coverage?
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… Also, is there some convergence for tools?
18:43:49 [ArtB]
JG: yes, there is work toward tool convergence
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… at least at the harness level
18:44:21 [ArtB]
JG: re the 1st question, that's pretty complicated
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Mark: want to understand the plan for ex, HTML5
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KK: we try to facilitate, but no hard rules
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… it's up to the WG participants re what will actually get done
18:45:36 [ArtB]
… We have a structure to enable lots and lots of tests
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… We have some features that have lots (1,000s) of tests and other features with more like 10's of tests
18:46:29 [ArtB]
Mark: for CSS 2.1, is test suite done?
18:46:43 [ArtB]
PL: one reason for the tests is to get to REC
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… the other reason is to determine if everyone impleemtns the spec correctly
18:47:17 [ArtB]
… we try to use a s/w development process
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Mark: are there specific milestones?
18:47:48 [ArtB]
PL: not really, we continue to improve
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DB: as bugs are found, new tests are added
18:48:26 [ArtB]
PL: as we hit milestones, we snapshot the test suite
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… and add new tests if we need to
18:49:11 [ArtB]
KK: we need to get a handle on how close the test suite is to the impls
18:49:17 [ArtB]
… and that can be hard to determine
18:49:34 [ArtB]
… F.ex, web workers is already supported in several browsers
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… and mostly interoperable so there is a question about how much testing effort should be done
18:50:06 [plh_]
--> q?
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q?
18:50:29 [ArtB]
… The work done depends on the WG participants
18:51:03 [jdurand]
q?
18:51:12 [ArtB]
PL: when a spec is early, it's a bit iffy to write tests
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… but it would be useful too
18:51:35 [ArtB]
JG: eventually must write tests so it makes sense to start early
18:51:55 [ArtB]
LG: agree converging test frameworks is important
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… need to eliminate outside dependencies
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KK: yes, we ran into that with some old DOM tests (from NIST)
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JG: we have a framework now
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… that is getting convergence
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… it is platform independent
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… it does depend on JavaScript
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… but no DOM dependencies
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KK: we need to be careful about adding features to the framework
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AB: how many WGs are using testharness?
18:55:15 [ArtB]
PLH: HTML, WebApps, WebPerformance, WebEvents,
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John: it was relatively easy for some tests
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LG: I think DAPI agreed to use testharness
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… but they don't have many tests yet
18:56:15 [plh_]
s/ WebEvents,//
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KK: I think we need to make sure WGs use testharness
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Q2?: what about rendering tools?
18:57:07 [ArtB]
JG: there are RefTests and manual tests
18:57:17 [ArtB]
… testharness is a JS api
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… reports results via a callback
18:58:13 [ArtB]
PLH: we have a framework on the test server to collect test results (HTML WG)
18:58:38 [ArtB]
PL: we can import results from other formats
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… the format can be XML or whatever
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… we also have an XHR API
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Q2?: need a good format
18:59:41 [ArtB]
John: testharness is really for JS APIs
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… there are challenges for visual matches
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KK: yes, e.g. font variability
19:00:23 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:00:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-testing-minutes.html ArtB
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s/Q?/Jan/g
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s/Q2?/JD/g
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KK: if there are any questions, please send them to public-test-infra
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… that's the list for the Testing IG
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[ James gives a quick tutorial on how to create a test with testharness.js ]
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Present+ JacqueD, JanL
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Present+ MattW
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Present+ CyrilC
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Present+ Russell
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Russ: what about images?
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JG: most use RefTests
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… and then can compare rendering
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KK: the biggest problem with rendering is fonts
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… RefTests give expected output
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… tests with "ref" in the test file name
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… at runtime, if they render the same, the test passes
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DB: a test in RefTest is an assertion of pixel equality
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… want to exclude external factors like fonts, margins, etc.
19:11:35 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:11:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-testing-minutes.html ArtB
19:12:15 [ArtB]
Chair: James
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RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-testing-minutes.html ArtB
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Lunch Call
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